What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

How did
1918 2257 and 27 beat
2054 107 and 67 ????

They kept an alliance who put up
63 and 114 in QF
and 92 and 118 in SF

to only 69 and 56 points in the finals....

to me it looks like it wasn't the best individual robots who won, but the best defense and teamwork that won West Michigan....

Congrats to 1918 2257 and 27!

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

Match 1-
Both 2054 and 107 lost Comm.

Match 2-
We ran over a popped Uber tube and that got jammed in our whole left drive.

Bad luck happened.

Congrats to 1918, 27 and 3357

Hopefully we'll see again at States

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

2054, 67, and 107 were quite a force to be reckoned with, thats for sure. The finals at West Michigan were very exciting. I think 2054 had some comms problems in the first match though.

I cant imagine what States is going to be like.

FYI: 1918, 27 and 3357 put up 96 in QF and 121 in SF...not sure how you categorize the "best individual robots". I think all 6 robots from both alliances played very strong all weekend.

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

I agree the technical problems the red alliance encountered need to be taken into account, but lineskier is right - the scores speak for themselves.

Going into the eliminations we knew we'd be facing 2054, 67, and 107 in the finals. We also knew that our bot (3357) would have to shut down 67 while 1918 and 27 scored in order for the blue alliance to win. We did this by:

1. Using Starcraft terms, constantly harassed each team. As soon as they were about to pick something up we rammed them or moved the game piece
2. Pushed all the triangles into our lanes so they couldn't complete a logo
3. Pushed other tubes towards 1918 and 27
4. Blocked teams from scoring minibots

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

Thanks for the insights everyone!

First off I would like to congratulate 67 and 2054 for making it onto my top 25 (based on ETC). 2054 actually taking my #2 spot.

I'm curious if anyone knows what caused the comms problems.

Great strategy Grant! It seems that defense is a (if not the) critical element in many of the finals matches.

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

You guys played the most effective defense our team has seen all season. You made fans out of our entire shop as we watched a single robot effectively defend three at once!

I personally thought a defense only robot would be ineffective, I was clearly wrong.

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

2054 had some type of computer issue, where it would not recognize their joysticks... so they set still during the entire first match.

107 had 201 CAN errors registered at the end of the match. I can't really say what effect it had on their performance....b/c I was busy trying to outscore 1918 and 27 alone, with 3357 playing the toughest defense we have encountered.

In the second match, somehow we managed to pickup a tube that was full when we got it and deflated 5s later when we tried to hang it. That might have made the difference. Then we ran over a deflated Uber-tube and got it jammed up in our drive train. We completely derailed all the chains on that side attempting to get it out. Needless to say we were essentially disabled.

Would I like to play those matches again with no issues, yes. Have I won matches and Championships when other teams have experienced similar issues, yes. It takes more than just a very skilled alliance to win.

My honest analysis of the teams:

Both 1918 and 27 are incredible robots capable of putting up just as many logos as 67 and 2054.

I think 67 and 2054's minibots were a little faster, only b/c in F1 our minibot was #1 and in F2 2054's minibot was #1.

We had an advantage that our autonomous modes were a little more consistent. In F1 we had a 2 to 1 Uber-tube advantage and in F2 we had a 3 to 1 advantage.

3357 was the X factor, because they really limited the number of tubes we were able to put up. I don't believe that 107 had a significant effect on limiting 1918 or 27.

I feel our alliance would have won, if everything went right....but part of this game is having the most reliable robots.

1918, 27, and 3357 was the better alliance this weekend!

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

Shhhh! You should keep that one a secret for later. It's a lot more efficient to concentrate on 1/3 of the opponent's tubes when it reduces their scoring potential by up to 2/3. Smart work.

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

Ah oh well. I'm looking forward to seeing how teams adapt to this. When they do we'll just think of something better. :)

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

I don't know if team 217 did this on purpose, but when they played against us and 469, we ended up not being able to complete a logo because we couldn't get a white tube (unfortunately, the only one 469 could get to was deflated). So yeah... tube-starving = success

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

Selective tube starvation - more effective than general purpose tube starvation.

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

That's what I meant ;)
Thanks for catching that

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

Yep. We did it on purpose. We were severely outgunned in that match and we figured the only way we could win is starve the logo completion and win the minibot race.

I am afraid that as the HP get better, the tube starvation method will be less effective. I am sure we will come up with something else.

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

I agree with you, as teams figure out how to best toss those tubes full court, strategies will change and change. Should make for an exciting rest of season! Great finals against you guys at Detroit! See you at Troy!

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

So next week we will see a match were no tubes are thrown because HPs are waiting to see what the other HPs are not throwing out. :confused: :D

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

I doubt it, but that would be funny.

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

If you watch our first QF match in Detroit, the opposing alliance did not throw any tubes, which became a problem where our alliance stopped throwing tubes resulting in a 20-30 seconds of no tubes.

Eventually our HP saw our coach jumping and waving his hands back and forth and began to throw tubes :rolleyes:

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

For those of you interested in watching the matches, you can find them in our video here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r09qDdMc74

Again, it was great playing with all of you at GVSU

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

Wouldn't it be worth it to take the penalty and get the tube?
3 point penalty, but completing a top row logo would be worth at least a 12 point increase (3+3=6 becomes 3+3+3X2=18), even more if a ubertube is on a peg.

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

I had the same question regarding crossing the midfield in autonomous to stop a double cap. :)

Needless to say many in the FIRST community felt this wasn't GP. You may find a similar viewpoint.

That being said, I think you are absolutely right. Grabbing a tube would definitely be worth it. But by starving teams, you're forcing them to take a 3 point penalty for each tube.

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

I have thought of this... If I have two ubertubes on the top row and a triangle and a circle up there and this method is in place for squares, im telling my driver to get the darn tube... its worth it...

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

I'm praying the new update fixes problems like that.

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

We noticed you guys doing that at FLR. We also like how you play a form of "active defense". When you run over to get another tube, you:

a) Make sure to take the one we need
b) Get in our way
c) Make it hard for us

while still scoring. Well played guys, we have lessons to take from you to Boston.

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

Being one of those who agrees that crossing the mid-line for auto is "unGP" I'd like to explain why.

First, I generally think of penalties as a dis-incentive, but nothing more. Penalties for lane infractions are just that. They take 3 points off my score... so, if I can increase my score from 6 to 18 (no ubers) or 15 to 30 (1 uber, already covered) or 24 to 42 (2 ubers, already covered), then it is worth it to pick up that final tube to get 12, 15, or 18 points - well worth it! I am not even acting in some fashion to directly damage your opponents progress by getting this penalty! I don't see anything wrong with this scenario.

Next, I don't approve of autonomous defense for this year's game. Yes, the rules don't start any larger penalty or dis-incentive for defensive autonomous modes, but do you think a ref will look at an intentional prevention of a double-uber auto the same way as an intentional lane infraction to acquire a tube? In this case, the infraction is again intentional; however, now I am writing an auto-program prior to the match to actively prevent a robot from scoring during a protected time/zone. This sounds like an intentional G32, to me:

"If a ROBOT enters the opponent's ZONE and does not make immediate effort to leave OR if it contacts another ROBOT (or GAME PIECE in its POSSESSION) also in the ZONE, then the intruding TEAM will receive a RED CARD."

I'd assign a red card... perhaps only a penalty and yellow card for the first offense. I really don't want to risk throwing away my RP for that match if it's a qualifier or the win if it's an elimination match! Now the analysis isn't XX points prevented vs. 3-point penalty, it's XX points prevented vs. 3-point penalty plus yellow or red card.

Let's say I could be certain I wouldn't be carded and that I could get there in time to block both their ubers... now I've brought the scores 21 points closer together (24 prevented, 3 lost for penalty)! That's a big deal, right?! Well, what if I can score 1 ubertube on my own rack? If it's the case, then it's only a 9 point difference between scoring one of my own and blocking two of theirs. If I can't get there in time to block the first uber or if I have a double-uber myself, I lose 3 points for the penalty with no score change. On top of all that, in the qualifying matches I don't want to reduce my opponents score any more than I have to to win. Really, I'm not seeing the point analysis provide much (any?!) incentive for the autonomous defense... particularly when you add in the likelihood to earn a red or yellow card.

On top of all the pure point analysis, I don't think it's a GP move to intentionally inhibit protected actions. For me, FIRST is all about people competing to their potential in a fair-as-possible competition to learn and inspire. GP is about helping other teams achieve this, often at your own expense. Does this rule out legal defense? I don't think so. Part of this competition is mastering all aspects of the game... including penetrating defense. Part of the competition is fulfilling your robot's design to play optimal defense. I don't see anything wrong with legal defense. I do see plenty of things wrong with illegal defense. First of all, it breaks the whole "fair-as-possible" thing. That's not all that big a deal... life isn't fair... I can handle that. I disapprove of the fact that it breaks the game. The game was intended to have a defense-free autonomous mode. The teams designed to account for variability in the field, potentially bumping an alliance partner, acquiring a tube, etc.... they had no reason to figure they need to shelter their protected autonomous mode. No longer is it about helping everyone achieve their potential, now it's about me achieving my potential so I can win at your expense. That sounds pretty selfish, to me.

By contrast, 2006, 2008, and 2009 all had autonomous modes designed for defensive interaction. 2006: charge across to stop the auto high scorer from getting in scoring position/knock them off-line. Teams like ours expected that and designed to auto-track the target with our turret. That was an accepted design challenge, it'd be pitiful to gripe about such defense when it was within the game! 2008: I need to tear around the track to get lines and knock off balls... obviously there are going to be 5 other robots there, only 2 of which I'll be coordinating with! Now, perhaps I'll drive forward a few feet and try to prevent their robot from getting more lines or maybe I'll just rack up my own lines, while avoiding the other teams... again, well within the challenge. 2009: now I want to pin my opponents to our HP station (or score on them), which was obviously well within the rules and expectations of the game.

Really, I do disapprove of the defensive auto on both the cost-benefit issue and on the GP issue. This may be different for other teams. Without some provided definition for GP to rule out some behavior, I can't say my GP-compass is the same as yours. Without knowing what your auto is like, I can't rule out whether or not the cost-benefit analysis works for you. I do know that we have a reliable 1-tube auto and are working on a 2-tube auto. For the 1-uber auto vs. blocking 2-ubers auto, I have a relatively low-gain (9 pts.), very high-risk situation (my defense failing to block the first tube or getting a red card both look pretty likely)... I know enough about betting to avoid those situations.

My $0.02... As I said, they're mine not yours... :-)

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

In 2010 we had a good autonomous rule:
This provided for Penalties for a simple incursion, and escalating consequences for contacting other Robots or Balls.

With all the RED CARDS in this year's game, I'm surprised that there is no additional sanction for interefering with an opponent ROBOT after crossing the CENTER LINE. Although if your ROBOT gets as far as the other ZONE, you'll get 2 PENALTIES ...

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

Well summarized. I'd never learned so much playing against a single alliance as I did in the FLR SFs. Definitely taking those lessons to Philly, but I dread to think what their post-tube starving plan is!

Side note: if you plan on tube-starving, have an override signal for your HPs. 201 wasn't the only coach out there jumping around like a lunatic when the plan changed. And plans can always change.

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

Hum... So those teams at kettering that thought our LED lighting scheme was pretty neat decoration...

Here is a crop of one of Daniel Ernst's pictures, anyone notice something with our LED decorations?

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

I totally see where your coming from, and I think most would agree with you.

Again just as with ethics, things are never cut and dry, and now I'll explain why I think stealing a tube would be GP, and it somewhat follows 2006. In 2006 we killed it in autonomous, actually our autonomous basically got us into the finals. In the finals we ended up getting blocks (which as you said was perfectly legal). In my case smart and tactful defense is different from just defense.

Crossing the centerline to come barreling at an opponent is IMO certainly not GP.

I stated this in another thread, but for me something is GP if it is intended to progress both FIRST and the world, and at the same time does not break your ethical beliefs.

Barreling across the field does not progress FIRST in anyway. In 2006 it did because it made you think about avoiding obstacles (a very real problem).

However I don't think 2011 is the same.

That being said I would think stealing a tube would be GP because it would progress FIRST. To be able to scan your opponents side of the field, find a tube, sneak over and take a tube, all while not contacting another robot, would be an incredible feat.

The camera which should be the ultimate sensor in the FIRST arsenal is used in most cases by the driver, but doesn't actually act like a sensor. However by using the camera to find and an acquire the ubertube in autonomous would emphasize the actual value.

I only think it would be GP if you did not touch another robot, this should absolutely be a yellow card (red card second offense). but if you're able to sneak onto the opponents side, and make a tube disappear. that would truly progress FIRST.

As always some people look to the rule book as a basis for GP, but I don't look at the rule book as the laws of FIRST, and even if it was breaking the midfield is obviously a civil offense. Most people speed, which is illegal, do you think they are being unGP?

Again life is all about assessing cost to benefit ratio. Sometimes civil offenses are okay.

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

We actually have HP indicator lights (not as cool as yours, though). And we were using them. And we were flapping our claw. And we were coming down our lane and sitting in front of the HP. And I was waving my arms like crazy.

...Perhaps what I means is, make sure your HP responds to your override signal.

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

Though I am surprised there's no further penalty for contacting an opponents robot, like Gary mentioned above, if I were in charge of strategy for a match and a situation arose where taking a three point penalty would guarantee a team not score an ubertube, then I would almost certainly go for it.

In my opinion it's a perfectly viable strategy, though potentially quite risky/challenging. Obviously it's hard to predict where a robot will be at a given moment in autonomous mode, and then there's always the possibility of a team being able to compensate and undo whatever "damage" you're capable of doing using sensors.

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

we had HP lights on our robot too (little dinky one's)

came up with a really good way to debug autonomous using them though. Basically I would start with all the lights on, and knock off lights as it moved through the maneuvers, this way I could tell if the camera found the target, or the rangefinder saw the wall, stuff like that :).

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

Josh, this seems to be a viable strategy, though one thing has me worried. Isn't intentionally getting a penalty in order to gain some sort of strategic advantage considered Egregious Behavior and therefore subject to a yellow card under rule <T06> ?

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

I think it depends on your definition of "egregious," which is, unfortunately, a very relative term.


If a team were to cross the center line and push an opponent into the wall at high speed, I'd probably call that egregious and potentially deserving of a card, especially if it did some sort of damage.

If you made an auton where your robot just knocked them off course a bit, I wouldn't be so inclined to call that egregious.


It's definitely not a very black and white issue.

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

Is anyone else thinking that prior to St. Louis we may see a major shift towards feeder loading features? With all this talk of specific tube starvation I can definitely see the advantages of at least being able to pick-up from the human players. I mean, at a certain level of competition does it become more advantageous to not throw your tubes in interest of slowing the game and forcing lower scores? Especially against powerful scoring teams.

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

1114 did this at Pittsburgh. They did only human slot loading in the beginning of an elimination match so they could outmatch the other alliance in tubes hung by taking advantage of being able to cross the field faster. I heard 175 used human-slot loading mostly even though they could floor load.

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

It's definitely possible we'll get more tube-scarce as time goes on. Even so though, I'm not sure there's an inherent design advantage in being able to pick up from Feeders. After all, good floor loaders can get a dropped tube just as a fast as good feeder can feed. Better yet, many HPs have practiced 'punching' it down the lane to get it near the end (but still safe). Of course, if it's your opposing alliance's a top-row-ubertube completing tube, you might want to stick with the well-timed dropping/short pushing tactic.

We played completely tube-scarce in the FLR semis against 217, 2056, and 1518. It has its uses. Didn't help us a lick (we all broke, not that I'm convinced it would've mattered), but I don't regret the strategy. Flooding the field only works when you score faster. I do think long-range, good aim HPs will take most days, though.

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

A little late in the reply but the problem was a bad USB Hub that first reversed the joysticks and then disconnected us from the FMS

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

Was it the little square one they send in the kit? Whenever teams have joystick problems that's the first question I ask. That thing is notorious for going bad.

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

We fortunately didn't need to use it this year. And, yes, it is not very robust (in all fairness, it wasn't ever designed to be).

Re: What happened in the finals at West Michigan?
 

Yeah, It was the little square one. We stopped using it and connect directly to a notebook computer we use as a drivers station. What do you expect for $15 part. Live and learn