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Madison 21-03-2011 17:44

Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
We received two yellow cards this weekend -- and consequently a red card -- after some trouble with our bumper mounts pulling out.

In the first instance, the yellow card was announced alongside the match score, but no official directly informed any member of my drive team about the infraction.

In the second instance, neither the yellow card nor subsequent red card was announced to spectators and, again, no official informed any member of my team.

Is this par for the course? We asked the head referee how teams are meant to correct behavior when they're not being informed of these infractions and were told, more or less, that we "should know better."

I'm curious if this is typical interaction between teams and the officials or if others are more diligent about informing teams of penalties/cards. I'd like to see some standard in place that the referees must follow with respect to informing teams of all penalties and cards.

JesseK 21-03-2011 17:53

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
Last year we were yellow-carded in a qual match in DC because we left a piece of our robot on the field. Of course we intended to shear those rivets and have the wheel break off -- it was obviously designed to do just that exactly once a competition. We weren't notified about it. We found out because we had a yellow background on our number in a later match. The head ref had similar sentiments.

I'm really glad the 'intentionally' has been re-added to the 'leave parts behind' rule.

Alex Cormier 21-03-2011 18:01

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
Also, the other interesting part is after a match. Teams are required to get the robots off the field and to get to the next spot. Which is usually the pit. So by the time, the scores and cards are announced, the drive team is already too far away.


I noticed in FLR and Pitt that the head ref's would walk over to the driver station of which team would get the card.

Ken Streeter 21-03-2011 18:05

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Madison (Post 1043327)
We received two yellow cards this weekend -- and consequently a red card -- after some trouble with our bumper mounts pulling out.

Is this par for the course? We asked the head referee how teams are meant to correct behavior when they're not being informed of these infractions and were told, more or less, that we "should know better."

The procedures for referees notifying teams of yellow and red cards is explicitly called out in rules T06, T08, and T11 in section 5.5.4 of the manual. (See below.)

T07 also points out how teams should be reminded of a prior yellow card.

The referees should be following that section of the rules, in the same way that teams are expected to follow the rules.

Quote:

5.5.4 Yellow and Red Card Rules

<T06> The Head Referee may assign a YELLOW CARD as a warning of egregious ROBOT or TEAM member behavior at the ARENA. A YELLOW CARD will be indicated by the Head Referee standing in front of the TEAM’S PLAYER STATION and holding a yellow card in the air after the completion of the MATCH.

<T07> Once a TEAM receives a YELLOW CARD, its team number will be colored yellow on the audience screen at the beginning of all subsequent MATCHES as a reminder to the TEAM, the referees, and the audience that they have been issued a YELLOW CARD.

<T08> A TEAM will be issued a RED CARD (disqualification) in any subsequent MATCH that they receive an additional YELLOW CARD. This will occur after the completion of the MATCH. A RED CARD will be indicated by the Head Referee standing in front of the TEAM’S PLAYER STATION and holding a yellow card and red card in the air simultaneously. The TEAM will still carry their YELLOW CARD into subsequent matches.

<T11> If a TEAM is disqualified during a MATCH for a reason other than receiving an additional YELLOW CARD, they will receive a RED CARD. This will occur after the completion of a MATCH and will be indicated by the Head Referee standing in front of the TEAM’S PLAYER STATION and holding a red card in the air.

Madison 21-03-2011 18:17

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Streeter (Post 1043339)
The procedures for referees notifying teams of yellow and red cards is explicitly called out in rules T06, T08, and T11 in section 5.5.4 of the manual. (See below.)

T07 also points out how teams should be reminded of a prior yellow card.

The referees should be following that section of the rules, in the same way that teams are expected to follow the rules.

Thanks for this -- it never once happened. Teams are rushed to get on and off the field to the extent that we're usually long gone before scores are ever announced.

It's frustrating that teams are meant to know the rules inside and out -- and I'll admit to missing this one -- but the refs frequently get any number of calls wrong and there is no recourse.

Jon Stratis 21-03-2011 18:20

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
I agree with Madison on this... there *should* be more communication of penalties, red, and yellow cards to the teams. In the past, we've never been able to tell for sure who got penalties - you just know the alliance got X number of penalties. In Duluth a few weeks ago, however, they announced the team and action for each of the penalties at the end of the match, and yellow/red cards were clearly announced and indicated after the match. Certainly worthwhile... if you were in the stands to hear it. I doubt much of that information got back to the drive teams, however - unless other members of their team went down to the pits to yell at them for doing something wrong.

The Ref's in Duluth did a great job keeping track of all that stuff. It could be a huge benefit to the teams to receive some sort of "after-action report" detailing what happened in the match - copy the final scoring screen they put on jumbotron, and add a list of penalties/yellow cards/red cards for each team, or even just specifically for their own team. Baring that (after all, it is more work that would have to be done by already busy volunteers), have a specially designated area for team coaches to hang out after their match and see the final results - the coach can listen to the announcer, see the final score, and see if the ref gives any yellow/red cards. It would also provide a great location for refs to approach teams after a match to provide more personalized feedback ("I noticed you do this, while I didn't call you on it this time, we're going to be more strict tomorrow" type of feedback... apparently pretty common at Duluth).

Ian Curtis 21-03-2011 18:30

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Cormier (Post 1043337)
Also, the other interesting part is after a match. Teams are required to get the robots off the field and to get to the next spot. Which is usually the pit. So by the time, the scores and cards are announced, the drive team is already too far away.


I noticed in FLR and Pitt that the head ref's would walk over to the driver station of which team would get the card.

Really? It's been two years since I was in the box, but we definitely knew if we had been penalized before our drive team was out of range. From memory, we knew if we had been penalized before the robot was off the field, and we knew the scores before we made it past the curtain. Perhaps this is venue specific?

We have been approached in the past about almost-calls too. "Hey, I noticed you almost committed a <G9001>, you should probably watch out for that in the future." :)

George A. 21-03-2011 19:11

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
I know that I always announce the team and rule infraction for each match I call, as have most announcers for the regionals I attend.

The only caveat to this is that in the elims we are instructed to only give the alliance color in hopes to stem "blaming" one team for getting the alliances knocked out

2789_DrT 21-03-2011 19:38

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by George A. (Post 1043364)
I know that I always announce the team and rule infraction for each match I call, as have most announcers for the regionals I attend.

The only caveat to this is that in the elims we are instructed to only give the alliance color in hopes to stem "blaming" one team for getting the alliances knocked out

Hmmm.. interesting. At the Chesapeake Regional, the announcer did communicate which teams were responsible for red and yellow cards in the elimination rounds - including two red cards that caused a semifinal rematch and another red card that cost the red alliance a final match that would have sent that alliance on to St. Louis. The match was replayed and the blue alliance won.

In the past, we have had a disconnect between our scout and drive teams so at this Regional we made it our goal to close that gap so that our drive team could better decisions. Our team had a scouting system that included 1 scout for the red alliance, 1 scout for the blue alliance, 1 scout to record minibot scores & penalties (that was me), and 2 people for data entry. We uploaded all our data to a google site (https://sites.google.com/site/2011chesapeake/) so that our drive team could make informed decisions and also provide early assistance to robots we were allied with in future matches that seemed to be in need of repairs. To be fair, we made the website public so that other teams could view our data too.

Because I was recording penalties, I could see how a drive team could miss some really key penalty calls. The referees conferred on the penalties for all matches so there was a lag between the penalty announcements and the end of matches. However, I know there must have been some kind of earlier communication between the refs and our drive team because the one time our team got carded - our drive team was able to ask the refs for clarification on the penalty.

IndySam 21-03-2011 21:46

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
At Wisconsin the head ref personally informed every team of a red or yellow card which was a nice touch.

At Purdue the head ref stood in front of the drivers station with the card.

Andrew Y. 21-03-2011 22:11

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
at peachtree...the head ref would hold up the red card and explain to the spectators exactly why the red card was given. She did this throughout qualifications and eliminations.

One thing she tried to do as fast as possible was to approach the driver station of the red carded team and show them they received the red card...but there was NO ONE in the drivers station most of the time due to the rush of getting robots in and out.

all in all i think there were no real communication problems at peachtree

BrendanB 21-03-2011 22:15

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis (Post 1043354)
Really? It's been two years since I was in the box, but we definitely knew if we had been penalized before our drive team was out of range. From memory, we knew if we had been penalized before the robot was off the field, and we knew the scores before we made it past the curtain. Perhaps this is venue specific?

We have been approached in the past about almost-calls too. "Hey, I noticed you almost committed a <G9001>, you should probably watch out for that in the future." :)

Yeah I'm thinking it is venue rules. At GSR this year by the time we got off the field the scores were announced. In some rare instances we moved to the right side/exit of the field and waited their for our scores (once for 5 minutes) without any problem.

The referees are doing their jobs of waving the cards the times I have seen them give them at GSR, WPI, and webcasts.

Billfred 21-03-2011 22:59

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Y. (Post 1043450)
at peachtree...the head ref would hold up the red card and explain to the spectators exactly why the red card was given. She did this throughout qualifications and eliminations.

One thing she tried to do as fast as possible was to approach the driver station of the red carded team and show them they received the red card...but there was NO ONE in the drivers station most of the time due to the rush of getting robots in and out.

all in all i think there were no real communication problems at peachtree

Cosigned--sort of. I was able to see the quarterfinals red card our opponents received rather clearly as we unloaded our robot...but I was already looking towards the blue alliance station (and thus the big screen, given the venue layout). Putting the head ref on the microphone was definitely more informative than sticking a red card in the air (which could happen in any of six places on the field).

Given the significance of a yellow or red card, perhaps a separate "Hold the drivers a minute" signal needs to be created to ensure that the drivers don't walk off before the announcement is put out (even while allowing them to leave their driver station to start robot unloading to keep the schedule). I'm not sure what the best signal would be--police lights on the scoring table? Another field sound, like the trumpet and foghorn? Big orange cone at midfield with Aidan Browne giving you the evil eye?--but I think an official signal that the head ref is about to lay the smackdown may help everyone be aware.

RyanN 21-03-2011 23:15

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
We were yellow carded this weekend because of our 5th person on the floor during finals was not allowed to be on the floor. They said on the PA system that each team going into the finals was allowed one extra person to help with the robot. We sent out our normal mentor we always send out, and we were yellow carded because we were only allowed to have 4 people. :confused:

No worries though, it did not change the outcome of the competition. We were just not sure why that was against the rules, and still don't. It does hurt our reputation though. We were penalized 12 points for it though.

Maybe someone who saw or was judging the Bayou Regional finals could clarify why were were yellow carded so we don't do it again?
:confused:

big1boom 21-03-2011 23:36

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IndySam (Post 1043439)
At Wisconsin the head ref personally informed every team of a red or yellow card which was a nice touch.

The Wisconsin head ref was really good about notifying the drive team of any warnings/yellow/red cards. He would send one of the field reset crew to tell a member of drive team to wait in the ref box, and then immediately following the match he would come over and tell that person what they were doing wrong, or how they are engaging in risky behavior.

bduddy 22-03-2011 01:17

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
At St. Louis it appeared that the head ref managed to show the card to the driver station before the team left, and each one was announced over the intercom.

I also think that every penalty should be announced over the PA as well - how hard would it be to establish some kind of standard system, like the NFL? Explain each rule the first time it comes up, then just say the rule number or a brief description of each penalty as it occurs. IMO this would dramatically improve the spectator experience.

ChrisH 22-03-2011 01:38

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RyanN (Post 1043482)
We were yellow carded this weekend because of our 5th person on the floor during finals was not allowed to be on the floor. They said on the PA system that each team going into the finals was allowed one extra person to help with the robot. We sent out our normal mentor we always send out, and we were yellow carded because we were only allowed to have 4 people. :confused:

No worries though, it did not change the outcome of the competition. We were just not sure why that was against the rules, and still don't. It does hurt our reputation though. We were penalized 12 points for it though.

Maybe someone who saw or was judging the Bayou Regional finals could clarify why were were yellow carded so we don't do it again?
:confused:

The extra person rule applies only at the Championship and is partly due to the long distances between pit and field. You can find the rule in the Tournament section of the Game Rules, Section 5.6 Championship Additions.

Navid Shafa 22-03-2011 02:34

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
I have to agree with Madison whole-heartedly. I also understand that being a ref is a tiresome, thankless job. I just felt really crappy, when I had to go to the ref's question Box to get rules clarified. Often the responses proved that either a ruling disregarded a rule or that they agreed with me, but "didn't see it"...

It's rough, but that just means that us and 488 will need to start winning our matches by 30 extra points to compensate for the unspoken or unclear penalties. You do that and you'll have a shot at getting some ties for matches... :P

Hang in there, you weren't alone this weekend. Let's keep our heads up and hope for a little better communication in the weekend to come!

RyanN 22-03-2011 07:44

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisH (Post 1043555)
The extra person rule applies only at the Championship and is partly due to the long distances between pit and field. You can find the rule in the Tournament section of the Game Rules, Section 5.6 Championship Additions.

I'm almost positive I heard them announce it over the PA though. I know it's not in the rules, but if FIRST announced it over the PA system to the teams, it shouldn't matter. I wasn't the only one that heard the announcement either.

RMiller 22-03-2011 11:33

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RyanN (Post 1043616)
I'm almost positive I heard them announce it over the PA though. I know it's not in the rules, but if FIRST announced it over the PA system to the teams, it shouldn't matter. I wasn't the only one that heard the announcement either.

Unfortunately, you will find that sometimes at FIRST events, the hand doesn't know what the foot is doing resulting in miscommunications and telling people the wrong things. I personally would always try to check with a second person (preferably one that it will matter to) if something seems out of the ordinary. In your case for instance (I realize it is too late), check with the head ref since that is where it would matter.

At one of the regionals I have been to the Pit Admin said a number of incorrect things, such as teams were not allowed to go to practice matches (at all) unless they were fully inspected. Another was, the Inspection Station will be open until 8PM tonight, so there is no rush to be inspected (this at 1PM when only 1 out of 40 teams had finished inspection).

wlaroche 22-03-2011 11:51

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
I was a Ref in Duluth and we had some matches that had over 5 penalties, and it seemed like there were only a couple of handfuls of penalty free matches. The head Ref had to tabulate the penalties (with the correct rule number, G12, G32...), give them to the announcer so they could be read off to the stands, and then run over to the station and show the yellow/red cards. The field reset had to happen real quick with all of the tubes having to get back into place. So I could see why teams would not know if they got a yellow/red card. If you see the Ref's huddling up, there is most likely some penalties being called.

If there is ever a question about a ruling on the field, go to the question box. I know I tried to keep an eye open to see if anyone was standing there and send someone over in a timely manner. The head Ref in Duluth was more than willing to answer any questions you may have.

Dad1279 22-03-2011 12:02

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RyanN (Post 1043616)
I'm almost positive I heard them announce it over the PA though. I know it's not in the rules, but if FIRST announced it over the PA system to the teams, it shouldn't matter. I wasn't the only one that heard the announcement either.

In NY we were allowed extra people, but they were supposed to stand on the side, not on the field, and were given badges. I believe this was to expedite match turnover, because there was not enough time to return to the pit.

akoscielski3 22-03-2011 12:06

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Cormier (Post 1043337)
I noticed in FLR and Pitt that the head ref's would walk over to the driver station of which team would get the card.

I have always saw this at our regionals, and the referee's should always do this. I am on the drive team and if he did not show the card an dtell us the reason we would have never known that one of our alliance partners (playoff match) got a card.

Maybe someone could approach an official (if he.she is not doin this) and ask (politely) for thme to always show the card and tell everyone the reason for the call.

Also in Pitt there was a question box in which you could stand inside the box and wait for the fref to approach you. Then you can ask the ref what were the penalties for, etc. I am not sure if these are at every competition?

RyanN 22-03-2011 12:16

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RMiller (Post 1043714)
Unfortunately, you will find that sometimes at FIRST events, the hand doesn't know what the foot is doing resulting in miscommunications and telling people the wrong things. I personally would always try to check with a second person (preferably one that it will matter to) if something seems out of the ordinary. In your case for instance (I realize it is too late), check with the head ref since that is where it would matter.

At one of the regionals I have been to the Pit Admin said a number of incorrect things, such as teams were not allowed to go to practice matches (at all) unless they were fully inspected. Another was, the Inspection Station will be open until 8PM tonight, so there is no rush to be inspected (this at 1PM when only 1 out of 40 teams had finished inspection).

It didn't seem out of the ordinary though... I'm not sure what happened. I guess I should just drop the argument. What happened, happened. It's too late to bring it up. It might not be in the rules, but it is apparently happening at other regionals too.

Gary Dillard 22-03-2011 12:22

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RyanN (Post 1043482)
We were yellow carded this weekend because of our 5th person on the floor during finals was not allowed to be on the floor. They said on the PA system that each team going into the finals was allowed one extra person to help with the robot. We sent out our normal mentor we always send out, and we were yellow carded because we were only allowed to have 4 people. :confused:

No worries though, it did not change the outcome of the competition. We were just not sure why that was against the rules, and still don't. It does hurt our reputation though. We were penalized 12 points for it though.

Maybe someone who saw or was judging the Bayou Regional finals could clarify why were were yellow carded so we don't do it again?
:confused:

I don't know about the specifics of your match, but I did hear at another regional webcast something to the effect that someone else on their team on the field had been giving signals so they got a yellow card. I've had to warn volunteers and media people about this before - they get carried away cheering and forget they can't give advice like "move closer" because of their advantage point on the field.

eedoga 22-03-2011 12:53

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
I know this is probably the least effective place to post this idea, what if refs had flags like in football. They would throw the flag in the direction of the robot or person breaking the rules.

I understand that it is in every teams interests to have all team members and mentors memorize all of the rules. It just seams like there are times when people unintentionally break the rules and don't know they are breaking them.

Also, I know that all of the regionals are on a tight time schedule. Perhaps having a few members on the drive team remove the robot, and giving drive team coaches an opportunity to talk to a ref would be of benefit.

Knufire 22-03-2011 12:59

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
Same here, when we got a red card at the Detroit District event, the head referee personally came to our pit after the match to tell us that we got a red card and explained why.

bduddy 22-03-2011 14:52

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eedoga (Post 1043761)
I know this is probably the least effective place to post this idea, what if refs had flags like in football. They would throw the flag in the direction of the robot or person breaking the rules.

I understand that it is in every teams interests to have all team members and mentors memorize all of the rules. It just seams like there are times when people unintentionally break the rules and don't know they are breaking them.

Also, I know that all of the regionals are on a tight time schedule. Perhaps having a few members on the drive team remove the robot, and giving drive team coaches an opportunity to talk to a ref would be of benefit.

I believe they used to do this. The problem is, do you really want flags littering the field during a match? Robots would run over them, move them, and possibly break either the flag or a robot... The flags on dowels the refs have now are probably the best solution.

Flyer522 22-03-2011 20:43

Re: Notifying teams of yellow/red cards
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RyanN (Post 1043616)
I'm almost positive I heard them announce it over the PA though. I know it's not in the rules, but if FIRST announced it over the PA system to the teams, it shouldn't matter. I wasn't the only one that heard the announcement either.

We saw that also, and heard when the finals started that you could have a 5th person, over the PA. I did ask about it, and was told that you could have a 5th person. They had to have been wearing the safety captain badge though, and could only stand behind the carpet. Did you guys obey all of that?


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