Re: 2011 Minnesota North Star Regional
 

Just noticed some video footage of the finals matches posted on youtube.

finals 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urBQdm3dS_o

finals 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUoPEWcCUeM

finals 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN9SLFY0tRU

PS. It looks like the minibot that didn't trigger had a deployment and climb of about 3.0 sec in match 1, and 4.2 seconds in match 3. I wonder if there was some wheel slipage that didn't allow enough force to be transfered to the sensing plate.

Re: 2011 Minnesota North Star Regional
 

I believe that you can see the first red card (G32) at around 3:59 in the second video, the red robot seems to push one blue robot into their zone and also runs into a second blue robot who is already in the zone. It is not good enough quality to see what is happening in the red alliance station towards the end of the match, though there is definitely a good deal of commotion (which says nothing to whether a penalty was committed or not, but it could have been a factor if the coach got caught up in the moment and made an err in constraint trying to help out).

Also, I agree that it was unfortunate that the score was displayed without/before any notification of the disqualification, the announcer might have in an ideal outcome, announced that there was a red card before the scores went up, but it was a fairly unique circumstance that the volunteers involved had probably never had to deal with in the past. Instinct might have been hoping that the scoring system would take care of the dirty work for them and show the red alliance as DQed and the blue alliance as having the win, it always sucks to have to deliver bad news.

Re: 2011 Minnesota North Star Regional
 

Aaron,

Thanks for posting these links. While these videos don't give us the best perspective (from mid-field) there is one thing I noticed that has yet to really be brought up in this discussion regarding the Finals matches.

In Match 3 of the Finals, each team was called for 1 3-point penalty (unless I've totally lost my mind). Watching the video seems to indicate that the Red Alliance was called for a Feeder Lane violation at about 2:27 into the video by the official at the far end, right side of the screen (and the head ref).

However, at 3:53 of the video, it appears obvious that the Blue Alliance is called for a G23 by the midfield official on the left side of the screen. He waves his flag and points right at the robot in contact with the Red Alliance tower during the End Game. You really need to start watching the video earlier than the 3:30 mark to see that machine drive into the tower (during a time when it isn't illegal) but then, once the End Game begins, the G23 is called.

Here's the interesting thing...Refresh yourself with the G23 rule:

<G23> Contact (via ROBOT or GAME PIECE) with the opposing ALLIANCE‟S TOWERS is prohibited. Violation: PENALTY plus RED CARD

The above (pasted from the 2011 rule book) seems to indicate that a G23 should have resulted in a Red Card in addition to the Penalty. No Red Card was issued or we know what that would have meant in the Elimination Round.

Maybe having access to all this video isn't such a good thing after all...

Re: 2011 Minnesota North Star Regional
 

Unfortunately it is what I was worried about... not detailed enough. Looking at match three I cannot see the target move up for 2512, but I would not call that conclusive. The only thing for sure is that the tower was not disabled.

It was raised earlier that 1730 may have been hit when deploying. Again, it is hard to tell with the video. I will break this into three parts:
1) It looks like the blue team (2549) hit them before the end game.
2) Dropped their claw and went to pick up the tube (this is the questionable part: 1) Did they hit 1730? (in the video around 3:51 it is hard to tell) 2) Had 1730 deploying the minibot (namely, is the minibot within the cylinder and in contact with the hostbot?)
3) Then 1730 turned and hit the tube into 2549.
For 1) and 3) there are no issues.
During timeframe 2) here are the circumstances:
1) if 2549 did not hit 1730, no penalty.
2) if 2549 hit 1730 before or after deployment (recall: deployment is if the minibot in contact with robot and within tower cylinder) and deemed unintentional (I think this is reasonable as 2549 dropped their claw, and had the tube in possession at the end of the match) then it is a penalty (no card).
3) if 2549 hit 1730 while deploying, penalty + red card.

From the video, it is impossible to tell what the right call is... maybe it is possible to tell from other angles.

Taking close looks at match 2 (I had not looked for this in the match three video, but looking later revels it as well), the human player from 2512 (right side) could have had a lot of violations for where he was stepping (almost every throw). My guess is that the refs had other things to do and never looked back during teleop.
I agree with there is a likely red card for 2225 around 3:59 in the video. It is impossible to tell if there was a red card on a non-driver operating from the video.

Re: 2011 Minnesota North Star Regional
 

Mike, my understanding is that what Kevin says is true. 3278 was close to the tower, but not touching. The left midfield ref is closest.

I would guess that the ref was pointing at the action on the right side of the field. It is hard to tell where the ref was looking though. I also see no movement from 3278, so you would think the ref would signal the penalty almost immediately at the start of the end game (notice 2512 is backing away when the flag is waved and one minibot is up while the second is really close).

An unintentional contact with 1730 while not in the process of deploying by 2549 would result in that three point penalty and no cards.

Re: 2011 Minnesota North Star Regional
 

In the video I see exactly what I saw at the match. From where I was I could clearly see the blue bot (truck) up against the left pole. It also looks like the head-ref pointed to it at one point. At the time I didn't even notice the other pole, but I was under the impression (I don't know 100%) that if the blue bot touches the red bot while touching the red pole, it would be a red card.

You can also see 2512's mini-bot climb and hit the top.

I know there are more videos out there from all different angles; we will have to see what surfaces.

Re: 2011 Minnesota North Star Regional
 

This is what I was talking about earlier. This is what I was upset about even before the minibot thing. And I saw this team do that in another match too, without being penalized.

To me it does look like he points down at the truck-bot, rather than across the field. I don't know for sure. And even if it is later than one would expect, he calls it later than the right-field action too. You can't see super clearly from this video, but that's my interpretation.

Re: 2011 Minnesota North Star Regional
 

Lynsey93, please see Kevin's comment below:

This also agrees with what I know of the situation.

I would tend to think the middle ref on the left has the best view of this robot. In addition, if you pay attention to the team (3278, black shirts), it seems to be the center individual who is the driver. I see nothing that indicates driving from 3:30ish in the video to the end. Notice, all three of the refs on the left side walk by without a closer inspection. So, the two real options are 1) it was obvious from field level they were not touching or 2) it was touching and the refs ignored it or they miscalled the penalty. I would think someone would have asked about it if it was touching, so I would tend to think that the refs saw daylight as it were between the tower and the robot. Again this agrees with people who were on the field.

Re: 2011 Minnesota North Star Regional
 

The video showed me all I needed to see to believe that the refs made the correct calls in Match 3.

At ~3:31 in the video you can see the 3278 (the truck) drive into the tower and the rebound slightly. They then do not move for the rest of the match. You can also see the midfield ref looking at them multiple times from when they hit until the end of the match. The head ref does point at them, but he doesn't have a good angle to see if they are actually touching or not.

At ~3:48 you can see 2549 push a tube roughly into 1730. This occurs before the END GAME as the towers are still flashing. 2549 then drops their claw and attempts to pick up this tube, it appears to slightly touch 1730 in the process. As 1730's robot does not move at all, and the tube remains at bumper level, below any deployment mechanism this action can not be construed as interfering with minibot deployment in my opinion. I believe the correct call is an incidental <G25> which is what the called and is the penalty signaled by the left midfield ref (not a penalty on 3278) who had a good angle to see the tube.

Regarding the 2512 tower issue, there are two possibilities:
1) The tower is broken, this is a field fault and the match should be replayed.
2) The tower is not broken. The refs are forced to do nothing.

While the circumstances were certainly not ideal (2512 losing comms and then the tower not being triggered) I believe the refs made the correct calls here (with the possible exception of the 2512 coach controls red card which is not visible from the video so I can't comment on and doesn't particularly matter).

I would have loved to see 1730, 2512 and 2225 win because if you have to lose it's always nice to have lost to the winners. Having said that, I am very happy to see the Robettes finally earn a blue banner. They have built great robots year in and year out and it was just a matter of time before they found themselves on the right side of the final match.

*Note: I am not a ref and have not gone through ref training. I have read the rules many times this season however, and referenced them while watching the videos and creating this post.*

Re: 2011 Minnesota North Star Regional
 

Aside from viewing it from a range of just a few degrees of the plane of potential contact, it would be impossible to tell 100% if there is contact or not unless the robot is in motion and decelerates faster than normally possible without hitting a sufficiently large object.

Vikesrock, I think you are right that the head ref could not have had the right angle and that the ref opposite him would have had a much better view. Had the head ref had the right angle and known that there had been contact he would have signaled the penalty himself. He was likely making sure that the ref opposite him knew about the potential infraction and was implicitly asking the other ref to inspect the situation to get the correct assessment.

Re: 2011 Minnesota North Star Regional
 

The ref clearly waved the flag on the near side, then you can see the head
ref come over and look at what was happening. He can over rule the other ref if he does not agree. The head ref and the end ref discuss what should be called. I trust the refs and would take what ever the ruling would of been.

Looking at match 3 on the youtube from 1730, you can see 3278 come in and hit the tower early. It had enough force to make it jump back. It never moved after that. The ref in the center nearest the camera had a good look at what was going on, and if there was a penalty he would of called it. The other side you can see 2549 moving over to pick up the tube. They push the tubes into 1730 prior to the endgame and then 2549 backs up. While 2549 was backing up, 1730 moves forward to get their minibot attached. 2549 then picks up the tube and tries to move into position. So if 1730 moves the tube into 2549, no penalty is enforced; G61.

Re: 2011 Minnesota North Star Regional
 

Here is match video of the final match. Sorry the quality is low.

Finals match 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dO_v-SN3Pk

Re: 2011 Minnesota North Star Regional
 

Here are some new videos I just found:

Match 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb68SmOkpOc

Match 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEWNZwbEdRk
(obvious red card at ~55 seconds)

Match 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dO_v-SN3Pk
(Hit and bounce back at ~1:58 on near right tower)

Re: 2011 Minnesota North Star Regional
 

Much better angle, thanks for posting those! The bounce back in the third match is much more clear here... but the angle still isn't enough to conclusively prove one way or another if the robot was touching the tower during the end game. With that, we have to continue to give the refs the benefit of the doubt.