Re: Is there usually this much frustration?
 

Jim,
Thanks so much for sharing this. There have been rumors this year about Texas going to the district model, which has prompted a lot of the noise you mentioned - "Not enough teams", "expensive", "time off school", "team density", blah blah blah. I like small events, I like lots and lots of matches. I think FIRST events are better than school. This is great.



This

Re: Is there usually this much frustration?
 

I also heard from someone involved with the FRC in Michigan, that for the MI State Championship FIRST is tied to a union who provides all the sound and lighting. At first, I didn't believe it, but after going to Atlanta last year and seeing that the t-shirt making company who was running the gift shop was from New Hampshire, I started to believe it.

Can anyone confirm this? And if this is true, then U.S. FIRST needs to be re-branded as "US" FIRST.

Also, I'd like to point out that smaller district events are not lame AT ALL. Instead they foster a kind of localism which allows teams to get to know each other better. The result is actually an even more intense competition where participants feel more involved.

Re: Is there usually this much frustration?
 

I'd pick smaller ones too. This year, with the new Lake Superior Regional, we had 40 teams compete, compared to the 60+ at the Twin Cities ones. I gotta say, it was NICE, for all parts of the team. There was a lot less crowding going on, so it wasn't as much of a hassle to get around the place, there were more matches going on for each team, and each team seemed to be making some better relations with other teams than I've seen down in Minneapolis.

Does anyone know how many Michigan teams there are? Last I've heard, Minnesota is approaching 130-140 and growing.

Re: Is there usually this much frustration?
 

I hate hijacking this thread to talk about the Michigan system, but...

Jim post here is what I've been thinking as to why the District system would be great for a place like Hawaii. As long as they can generate 24 or more teams, they can play multiple events with lots of matches, and not need to worry about airfare to the mainland. The district system is practically made for an isolated area of teams.

Re: Is there usually this much frustration?
 

I think the district model also makes it possible for states to support FIRST rather than towns. Given Michigan is still at the same price point, but you get a better ROI. I think if FIRST adopted the model, the registration cost could be significantly decreased beyond the present FIRST cost in Michigan. By attending events in Michigan you are actually paying for teams to attend events like the BAE regional. Adopt a smaller model everywhere, and everyone's costs go down. Also you pay 1k for all the rookie teams, maybe rather than focusing on growth, we should focus on minimizing that 10% loss of teams every year. Once again driving operating costs down.

Returning customers are always less expensive than new ones :).

I'm not saying cut the stipend for rookie teams, but I think the focus is on bringing in rookies, not sustaining the veterans.

I love hijacked threads. We have a good conversation going here, where ever it goes... awesome :)

Re: Is there usually this much frustration?
 

My frustration is the relentless money raising.

It's incredibly frustrating to spend 6.5 weeks, plus all the fall season hours, plus the time leading up to the regional to play 9 matches (or maybe a few more if you make the eliminations). This is even more frustrating if you have robot problems that prevent fulfilling matches (not a FIRST problem, a team problem).

Last year my team played 11 matches (9 quals, 2 elims). We only made one practice match during the practice day. We went to a pre-ship and played (being generous in that term) several matches. We went to a fall competition and and did pretty well, got in a bunch of matches and the team felt good.

Last year the ThunderChickens played 99 matches (according to TBA). In other words, if we keep going at the same pace, it would take us 9 years to play the same number of matches. The comparison in learning for the students is similarly skewed. Students learn by playing matches and anything that prevents more matches is a problem. When it costs $400 to play a match ($4000/avg 10 matches), it's hard to see the payback.

A big inhibitor to this is the field. It takes many people a day to set up and take down a field. That makes a setting up for a quick weekend event difficult. It would be nice to have a permanent field location to simply go and play a series of matches against a bunch of teams (school conference teams, regional teams, etc). So when I win the lottery I can make that happen.

That's why I am interested in the MI district model.

Re: Is there usually this much frustration?
 

Jim is pretty close to the cost. At Kettering we do have to spend a bit more due to having to rent bleachers. They are our biggest cost. I think we spend $23,000 but about $12,000 of that is the rental.

There is absolutely no feel of a offseason event to a district. I personally love the district. In the past my team played 7-8 rounds and went home for a season whereas now we play 26-30 rounds. It has made our team stronger. Many times the pits are 2/3 empty because everybody is in queing or on the field!!

BTW Great job this weekend Jim!

Re: Is there usually this much frustration?
 

This brings up a very good point. There is a fine balance between too few and too many teams. The MI districts are set up at 40 teams, which approaches the maximum most events can handle (perhaps slightly exceeding in a venue or two).

But if you drop too far below that number, the match separation on the schedule drops to only 3 or 4 matches, sometimes 2. You get off the field and go right back into the queue line.

(The lower numbers work in OCCRA because they play 2v2 games.)

Re: Is there usually this much frustration?
 

Exactly. 18 months ago, I actually had a long conversation with Ashley, the Hawaii Regional Coordiantor about exactly this. I don't know if anything has been done, but it seems to me that this would be prefect there. Most of the 32 teams in Hawaii do not go to the mainland to play, so most can only do one event. If you could double the amount of playing time, for the same price, does it really matter the same teams would be there both weekends? While a greater population with more mixing would be better, doubling the teams' ROI is still a huge step in the right direction. In time, the mixing issue will solve itself. Look at us, in 2008 we had 3 events with huge population overlap at all 3; now we have 10!

If you want to grow your team population, the #1 thing you can do is to put an event in their backyard. It is easier to get teams to join if you can show them a FIRST competition. The less they have to travel, the more people will see it, and faster it will grow.
If you look at the FRC map, this is obvious. The teams are all clustered geographically around the events. It is a chicken and egg thing.....the teams create the events, but the events also help to create the teams. The more events we have, the more growth we will have.

Re: Is there usually this much frustration?
 

According to the FIRST website there are 131 MN teams and 171 Michigan teams.

Re: Is there usually this much frustration?
 

In 2009, we launched our district system of 7 District Events snd a State Championship with a population of 132 teams. It sounds like MN is in a position where this is certainly possible in your state.

Re: Is there usually this much frustration?
 

I'd be interested in hearing about some of these conversations. If I knew that everyone was on the same page in Texas and working in the same direction, together, that would be awesome. Totally.

Jane

Re: Is there usually this much frustration?
 

I wish I could tape this on the door and show it to every Texas FIRST team.

But sadly, everything is bigger in Texas, including our regionals.

If you want the district model of return in Texas, your team should do VEX.

Re: Is there usually this much frustration?
 

What is the minimum number of volunteers you need to run an MI event?

You said in an earlier message that MI commissioned their own fields. So you didn't buy 2 fields from FIRST? Do you have an FMS system or a different system? Where do you store the fields?

Re: Is there usually this much frustration?
 

We have 2 fields. Tardac generously arranges for construction of the mechanical components of these fields for the FiM organization (thanks Jack Jones!). They have contractors with government security clearances which meet the secrecy requirements set by FIRST in order to have access to the build plans. We see nothing until after kickoff. We get 2 sets of certified field controls from FIRST which are identical to those used everywhere else. We purchased two 24' long tandem axle trailers and have a complete field assembly in each one. We store the trailers at the GM proving grounds in Milford (Thanks to Tom Nader!). We move the trailers with Ram Diesel Heavy Duty trucks loaned to us by Chrysler (Thanks to Pam Williamson!). Volunteers transport the fields to and from the various Events (thanks Tom, Dave, Cindy....). Load, Unload, set-up, and tear-down are all managed by volunteers from the teams, many of whom are students. No roadies to pay, and it is a great way to get your team involved in the event management side of the FRC, which traditionally has been somewhat taken for granted (yet rather costly to outsource).