Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

With regard to the original question, "allowed" implies a regulatory solution. I think there's a broader question: should gender-specific teams be encouraged within FIRST?

The regulatory angle is one way to discourage them (or eliminate them entirely), but it shouldn't be the only thing we consider.

From a formal point of view, I'd need strong evidence that they were almost always a bad thing to ban them, but would be satisfied with moderate evidence that they were usually bad as a reason for discouraging them, and would interpret ambiguous evidence as a reason for not actively encouraging them. Those represent several degrees of "no", but I think they better express the continuum of options.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

3103 Iron Plaid from Houston, but we are based out of a school.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Coming from a non-exclusive team where the girls are generally more enthusiastic, more creative, and more focused, I can't say it would be a bad thing. We've seen some pretty fantastic all girl teams, absolutely.

That said, I team which is on-policy female-only is not right. You have legal issues, you have ethical issues. It's a mess. The exact same if it's a male-only by policy team.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

i am not attacking anyone and i am certainly not saying that any teams should be kicked out of FIRST i am just proposing a question that from your statement seems to be on the mind of more people than myself

i would like to refine my objection a bit to focus more on the teams who have sponsors that will only support them if they stay all girl. especially when said sponsor is not already a feminist group they simply start a all girl team because thats what they want there name attached to for political reasons. this is in no way on the fault of the students or mentors but still seems to be an abuse of the system for the sponsor's political gain.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I like this discussion ... a lot.

- Regardless of the OP question which I think is tough to answer at all, I like Patrick's amended question and I like the broader discussion even more.

-Karthik's "Rock Star" strain here is a good one. There are examples of female FIRST alums and what they are doing who are being promoted - I saw one speak at the Robotics Ed Caucus lunch briefing I attended fall 2009 and another I worked with personally who has been featured in FIRST marketing, etc. However, I'm unsure of the total numbers (probably small), and the numbers of female grads actually mentoring and working with teams. I'd venture a guess that, since STEM fields have been historically "male dominated" that finding the career female engineer/scientist who isn't a FIRST alum to hold up as an example would be somewhat harder than finding the younger female engineer/scientist who is a FIRST alum. It would seem obvious, however, that we need more female engineer/scientist guest speakers at events and more female engineer/scientist working with teams (in lead roles). I do believe there have been positive strides in this direction during my 10 years in FIRST, but it will certainly take a long while to move a culture away from the "male dominance" (both real and perceived) over time.

-Now, the discussion of "how" best to "grow" more females toward STEM (and still maintain one's soul, integrity, insert any other such parameter here) becomes the part of this discussion that was originally called for. In general, there is some educational value, supported by research, that "clustering" works. There are schools that have intentionally placed all females together in math and science classes and have seen interest and test scored rise as compared to a control group over time. However, the difference here is that every other student in that same school still has access to math and science. In some cases discussed here, an exclusively female FRC team COULD (notice I said "could") exclude certain populations of students from the opportunity based on gender. It's this scenario that makes me, personally most uncomfortable. Now an all-girls school FRC team with all girls? That's a no-brainer. However, I would have serious philosophical reservations about denying access to an FRC team SOLELY based on gender. In an effort to give more girls a chance (noble, indeed), you'd potentially be shutting out the next great male astronaut (ouch). Does a sponsor/donor still have the right to donate based on certain exclusionary desires? You bet. Do I have the right to choose whether or not I'd like to be associated with that? You bet.

Carry on..great discussion here ...

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

This is the key topic that should be discussed in this thread. Every team has their own reasons for running a team the way they do. Jane mentioned several dozen posts back that its not uncommon for college students to change their majors as they progress through their education. When referring to females in engineering/science I would hope they are choosing to do this based on a genuine change of heart and not because they feel they will not be able to succeed in a mainly male driven environment.

This got me thinking about all girls teams and how they may or may not deal with this feeling. Certainly an all girls team will give females a better chance to get more involved in the program. What they won't provide is the window into the way the world really is. Now, I'm not sure if at a high school age this is a good thing or a bad thing, and I certainly don't agree with the world being that way, but change will not happen overnight. This is something a female pursuing a STEM field will have to endure.

To me, it would seem a girl who spent 4 years on an all girls FRC team vs a girl who spent 4 years on a co-ed FRC team would come out with different experiences, this is for certain. However, if the environment is established by the team and mentors to allow girls to succeed in a co-ed environment than I would argue the girl on the co-ed team had the better experience (this is all very hypothetical of course). More than likely this girl would have experienced the hardships many of the female mentors and engineers have spoken about in this thread. When this girl gets to college or becomes an intern or even gets a real job, she may have already had to overcome some gender barriers in her career. Maybe this life experience that has been instilled in her will truly make her stick in STEM.

Just some food for thought..

-Brando

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I have mixed feelings about exclusivity. On the one hand, the prime directive of FIRST is to inspire kids. ALL kids, not just a select group. I personally welcome any kid, male, female, any race or nationality, from any school (or home school). I know of teams in the area that will not allow a kid to participate unless he is a student at that school. I even know of a team that requires a student to be a junior or senior to participate. I do not agree with these policies, or any similar policies, but the team leaders have the right to make the rules.

What I have the most issues with is the double standard. It is OK to make an all girls team, or an all African American team, but not OK to make and all boys team or an all Caucasian team. Not that I would agree with either of those policies either. I just don't like double standards.

In college, I remember meetings posted for SWE (Society of Women Engineers) and NSBE (National Society of Black Engineers). At the risk of igniting a firestorm, I would bet that if anyone tried to start the NSCCME (National Society of Conservative Caucasian Male Engineers, that the world would fall upon them and vilify the person responsible.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Equality is not a zero-sum game. Do you really think men are suffering on an institutional level (equivalent to how women currently suffer) just because of a few all-girls STEM programs? Given that the whole rest of the universe is already giving men/boys a much larger leg up culturally, I honestly don't see how a handful of girls-only FIRST teams could possibly do that much damage. The idea of these teams isn't to teach girls that boys are bad or inferior, but simply to give girls room to expand their horizons without feeling the pressures of being judged by their gender. Equality for women doesn't require the loss of equality for men.

In a perfect world, I would simply wave my magic wand and instantly make all parents raise their children without prejudice. How do you propose to magically remove the cultural advantages given to males without making any real concerted effort to level the playing field?

I agree with you that parents should raise their children equally, but how do we convince people that equal treatment is necessary? The only way to do that is by shattering the stereotypes and demonstrating to the world that women and girls CAN make great scientists and engineers, and that raising them differently on the basis of their gender is patently wrong. And how do we do that? By giving more women and girls a safe space in which they can pursue those dreams, where they are at least somewhat protected from the harsh judgements of a sexist society. Certainly co-ed teams are capable of providing that safe space, but not ALWAYS. And that is why all-girls teams can play an incredibly important role in transforming our culture.

Again, you must think we live in some kind of dream world where every instance of sexism and racism is dealt with swiftly and justly. I can tell you from personal experience in engineering that this is not the case. If it were possible to ensure that no sexism was ever allowed to occur on any FIRST team ever, then yeah -- obviously there wouldn't be any need for all girl-teams. But until that day -- when we have stamped-out all forms of sexism -- we need to keep trying to effect positive cultural change, and many of the all-girl teams have proven themselves quite effective at doing just that.

Nearly two decades ago, a man named Dean Kamen saw that there was a very troubling problem with our society. Our nation's young people were losing interest in the things that mattered, and instead were devoting their attention to mindless entertainment -- numbing themselves to the ways in which the world needed them. He could have just tried shouting at the top of his lungs -- "Stop raising your children this way! Make your children care!" But he knew that simply telling people wouldn't convince them. He needed to show them, adults and children alike... and that is why FIRST was born.

Likewise, we can't just tell people to stop being sexist (i.e. attacking only the "problem")... but we can show them why and how stereotypes fail by giving young women room to grow without judgement. The more visibly successful women there are in STEM, the more people's prejudices will begin to break down. In this way, I don't see how we could view the mitigation of the "symptom" as anything other than a success.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I am a software engineer... and have been for more years than many of the readers and posters here have been alive. :ahh: And I would like to say that I am in a quandry about the issue of all-girls teams.

Exactly! I would say that the best situation would be to have a co-ed team where everyone is equally respected and given equal opportunity in all aspects of the team, but I would be lying if I said that this can be expected to happen everywhere. I only wish this kind of activity had existed when I was in high school. I suspect that can be very empowering for girls to be on a team on their own where they are expected to step up and get it done rather than having to push their way in. But if they are heading into engineering they will need to deal with that at some point and need to be ready to stand on their own 2 feet.

To my knowledge, I am the first and only female engineering mentor that our team has had. [I have been with the team for 5 years of the 13 we have been around.] But it is just the luck of the draw... some teams have access to female engineers and some do not. We must acknowledge that we are in somewhat limited supply. And I must say that it can be difficult being the only woman in conversations among the team mentors, but that is life... I face that same challenge every day at work.

But I relish the opportunity to encourage the girls on our team to get involved in the engineering aspects of the team... and also to be there for them as a woman to talk to and to celebrate or commiserate with them when they need that. And I also relish the opportunity to let the boys on the team see that a woman can be an engineer and that she often has knowledge, experience, and insight to offer. I think what I am trying to say here is that I don't need to be considered a "FIRST Rock-Star" to feel that I am making a real impact on the lives of both the young men and women that I mentor on our team. I know what I have done... the impacts that I have made. I am proud of that. :D

[On a side note, several of our male mentors have indicated that they often prefer working with the girls on the team because they listen and take direction better. :) ]

Kim and Jaine - I agree with this wholeheartedly! Who are we to decide what works best for any team? However, as others have stated I would be sad to hear of an all-girls team that was created simply to exclude the boys (ie. not from an all-girls organization or not having another co-ed or all-boys team in the area).

Agreed! And... one thing that I see that truly upsets me is when an all-girls team receives an award and it is implied that the judges were impressed by what they did considering it was all girls. This is completely unacceptable either to give the award for that reason or to imply such when it is in fact not the case. If the girls are not held to the same standards as the boys, they are left feeling like they cannot measure up those standards - a ridiculous notion. And implying that the standard is different is as just as damaging. So I ask that people judge females in engineering not because they are girls but regardless of it.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

On the other hand, consider an all-girl team that happens not to do well for whatever reason.

Even with other teams all around doing just as poorly, and even with some of those other teams having no girls present at the competition, I heard the "wrong" sort of comments about the reason for the all-girl team's lack of success at the event. It was one of my least favorite moments of that weekend.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Does anyone know how many girls teams actually exist? And how many are not based out of girl-school or the Girl Scouts?

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

This comment is going to bring a rain of criticism down on my head so I've opened my umbrella in advance.

Here goes - I have had the privilege of meeting mentors on teams for several years as I've traveled to different events. I've also met mentors here in Chief Delphi and read their profile information. Almost every single time, the NEMs that I've met that are engineers, think of themselves as a team mom and a lot of times, that is how they market themselves - as moms.

I'm not interested in being a mom. I do that job, hopefully very well - at home. I'm interested in being a nontechnical mentor. Sometimes, for the students, there isn't a difference. Sometimes, for the parent or the mentor, there isn't a difference. The fact is - there is a difference and it is important to get that out there to the team and to the program. Whether you are in a technical role on the team or serving as a NEM, you are bringing your training and skillsets to the talent toolbox that helps build the team. Don't hide the training/education or the effort it took to obtain the skillsets. By presenting yourself as an engineer who works as a NEM on a team or as a engineering mentor, you are inspiring your students and students on other teams. We've already witnessed this type of inspiration in this thread.

I think moms are great. On FRC teams, I think mentors are greater. It is all in the perception and reality. I'm not interested in helping grow girls into being moms. That's not my role as an FRC mentor. I'm interested in helping grow girls into realizing their dreams through education and their careers.

I am also thinking way beyond NSCCME (National Society of Conservative Caucasian Male Engineers) and into other cultures. I'm thinking globally and towards the future. In some of those cultures, I can see some very powerful lessons and opportunities for girls on teams, including all girls teams. If you've read the post by the girls on 842, you'll understand how cultural expectations impact the thinking and behaviors of girls. I'm interested in changing the impact of those expectations and helping to forge new realities and expectations.

It can start with a mentor calling herself an engineer or mentor instead of a mom when participating in CD, in FIRST programs, and in talking with people about your role on a team. Very small shift but very significant.

Jane

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

As a potential sponsor of an All-Girls FLL team I think this statement is a generalization. I think there are plenty of sponsors who may make that decision for the right reasons. They realize they don't have the diversity they want in their recruiting, so they reach deeper, to a point where they can impact the pool of potential hires available. They wish to get more girls more hands on time, and get more girls into the STEM pipeline. I think this can be the case, and is in the case of the sponsorship that I offered.

However, I have seen the mar diversity can place on a corporation. I was a college recruiter for several years (for my engineering group), and we were told that if we recruited 40% minorities overall, we would get a bonus. To me, it was a very very dumb rule. I wasn't going to hire a female just because I would get a bonus. I was going to have to work with that female, and if she couldn't do the job as well as the male, I'm sorry, but I would rather hire the male. Now if I had two candidates that were exactly/nearly equal, I would hire the female, but any recruiter knows candidates NEVER come out exactly equal. I interviewed plenty of women who it was unfortunately painfully clear that others had "carried" them through their classes, or teachers perhaps had just given them passing grades.

See... I don't know... having gone through all of this myself, I am not convinced that there is ever a "right place" or "right time" to be exposed to the discriminations we do faces as female engineers. Here's what I tell a lot of people about being a girl going into engineering...

Is it EASY to be a Female in Engineering?
1. Yes. Its EASIER to get into college. Engineering colleges strive for diversity. I joke that I probably got "the female scholarship" even though none of my scholarships specifically said that.
2. No. It SUCKS being a female engineer in college. You face professors that don't think women should be engineers. You face boys that don't think you would make a good lab partner because you are a girl. You face a room of 64 men as the only female because you chose the electrical/computer engineering department. It SUCKS. Sure there are the girls that get all the starry eyed boys to do all the work for them, but that doesn't lead to a real education in my mind.
3. Yes. Getting a job out of college IS easier as a girl. I guarantee I got a few extra interviews BECAUSE the name on my resume was female. I wont deny that. I like to think the job offers I got, I got on my merits & accomplishments, but I wont pretend that my resume with a 3.3 GPA was any more impressive than some of my male friends with 3.5's that didnt get an interview. I had the most job offers of any of the Electrical/Computer engineers graduating from Clarkson my year... however, I attribute that to my THIRTY on campus interviews, not my gender. Sometimes girls just work harder :)
4. No. Being a female in engineering ISNT easy. My first internship, there was a guy who didnt want to work with me or give me the time of day because he didnt think female engineers were smart enough. I hit heads with plenty of old engineers that thought the same. I also encountered several female interns/engineers that were clearly "giving us a bad name" as they always let the guys do the work for them. Its frustrating to see these girls that have/had so much potential just give in to society and use their gender to more advantage than their brain. It aggravates me to no end.

I completely agree with this, and I think up until seeing the panel last year, I was on the same exact thought process. But these "FIRST Rock Stars" have kids asking for their autographs, they are sought out at competitions, they are the Idols that Dean & Woodie were hoping would come out of this program... yet not a single female among the ranks. Im far from caring if I or anyone I know is THAT female rock star, as as you state, I know the impact I have made. I've seen it in all that 229 & 1511 have accomplished, in their alumni who email me with their latest accomplishments or ask me for recommendations... yet I still want SOMEONE to be that female rock star, the one that we can all see up on those pedestals alongside all the males. Some teams are fortunate to have female mentors like that, but for those that don't, I want there to be a female Rock Star for all those girls to look up to. To know that they can succeed and wont be pushed out in college or once they enter their career. To know its possible.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

As a male mentor working with an all girls team for the past 5 years (the Robettes, I think we've been mentioned a few times in this thread already :) ), I wanted to share my perspective on this subject.

First, lets talk about the pits. I challenge everyone here to walk around the pits at their next regional a few times and count the numbers of males and females actually working on the robot. You'll find a huge gender bias, and the reasons for that have already been outlined in this thread: Boys have more experience growing up, and naturally tend to take over, pushing girls out of the way. It can be a real eye opener to see a pit that has all girls working on the robot.

Next, lets talk about the Robettes. Every year we have close to 25 students. We currently have 3 male mentors from Boston Scientific and two female teachers working with the team. While we've had female mentors from Boston Scientific with the team in the past, when the team was first formed the students made a conscious decision to encourage female mentors to work with other teams instead - that way, those females could provide direct inspiration in male-dominated teams.

Our team structure has evolved over the years, but one thing is certain - our students come with practically no experience, and leave being able to design and build a robot. When I say no experience, I mean none. Some of them have never even used a drill before. How do you compare a student, regardless of gender, with that level of experience with one who grew up building tool boxes and bird houses in Boy Scouts? With one that learned first hand some basic engineering principles in designing and building a PineWood Derby car? There really is no comparison. Those students coming in with experience quite simply will take over.

Finally, I wanted to share some stories the team has been collecting. These stories show exactly what sort of impact an all-girls team can have, not only on its members, but on the wider community.

This first one comes from a Second grader who saw our team compete last year.
This next one comes from one of the founding students of the team, and really highlights what this experience provides for the students.
This final one is from a current member's grandmother, and really helps to highlight the type of gender bias the team is working against.

If your at the North Star regional later this week, stop by our pits to read all of the stories we've collected so far!

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Alright, so, I can't keep my nose out of gender and engineering threads, so here goes.

Background: I attended an all-girls school for part of middle school and all of high school. That school had an all-girls FRC team that I was a part of (and captained one year), and our mentors were almost exclusively male engineering students from Ohio State. I then went to Olin College, which is about 50/50 male/female, and I'm now a systems engineer and project manager at an 80 person company where I am the only female engineer and the only female project manager.

I understand the frustration at girls-only teams that are sponsored, or supported, by environments that are co-ed. And I think having an all-girls team at the *expense* of giving boys the opportunity is wrong; everyone should get to do FIRST! But fundamentally, whether you're at a co-ed school or a single-sex school, the basic question is, why is an all-girls team a valuable option for a young women interested in FIRST?

True, most of us never got to work on cars with our dads, or had LEGO or Erector Sets as toys, or were encouraged to program, or anything like that. Some of us were even actively discouraged from doing those things, which puts us at a disadvantage against the people -- yes, often boys -- who maybe were more likely to have all that knowledge and experience from an early age. So yeah, that can be intimidating, to know you're walking into that situation.

But let me share some anecdotes from my experiences as a female engineer, and on an all-female FIRST team, surrounded by people -- men -- who are very supportive of me and my passion for robotics. Many of you male commenters are stating that you see "no difference" in how female students on your team are treated, and that many of them are "even better than the guys" at engineering tasks, and "no one makes negative comments." One of you even said "the real world has figured out how to make engineering co-ed, why can't we do it in FIRST?" I applaud each of you for being open-minded and supportive of your female peers, but I'm going to try to explain why things might not always be as they seem.

If you look in the FRC Regional Competition manual you'll notice there's a rule that no one may form a "human tunnel" during the awards ceremony. There's a story behind that. In 2002 my (all-girls) team attended the Midwest Regional at Northwestern. Not only did we make it to the quarterfinals as an alliance partner, my team also won the KPCB Entrpreneurship Award. When we were called up, a human tunnel had already been formed for the award winners to run through. My team ran through. And each of us got our rear ends squeezed, and some girls got touched up front as well. Well, you grope a group of 20 highly opinionated assertive teenage girls, we're going to complain -- and we did. We talked it over with the FIRST staff, committee, and other leadership onsite, who went to go talk to the teams. They agreed to talk with all the lead mentors about the incident and ask them to communicate to the teams that this was entirely unacceptable behavior. After talking with the mentors, several -- from co-ed teams -- went up to the staff member and said, "Oh, I'm glad you said something. A girl (or a couple of girls) on my team experienced the same thing, but I wasn't sure what to do about it."

So think about that. There were girls on co-ed teams, who I'm sure many people thought were great contributors and smart people and "no one treats them differently," but they were, let's face it, harassed at an engineering event and their team leadership, for whatever reason, were unwilling or unable to really deal with this treatment effectively. Had my team of angry girls and very supportive mentors not gone to the Powers that Be to complain loudly about this, no one ever would have known it had happened and these girls could have felt completely marginalized, feeling like their mentors -- the ones who are supposed to be helping them navigate the world of engineering -- weren't willing to stand up for them when they were treated inappropriately just because of being female.

I'm lucky now, even though my company doesn't have many other women, to at least be working with men who are open-minded, progressive, and many of whom are even married to female engineers, so my gender is very much a non-issue at work. And yes, if I felt I were treated inappropriately, with the right documentation, escalation to management, possible legal battles, etc, someone could be fired for treating me that way. However, that doesn't stop visitors to my company from hitting on me after a presentation I give, or telling me I should have a "dream job" like their wives where I can stay at home, or having customers asking obviously leading questions about my experience and background to determine whether they think I'm qualified to be in a leadership position I'm in (when I can clearly observe they're not asking these questions of my similarly aged male colleagues). These things all happen on a regular basis. And it sucks. The real world does not have the co-ed thing figured out by any means.

But thank god, thank god, I started my engineering career through FIRST, with a group of young women who supported each other and encouraged each other, with great male mentors who understood the challenge women face and who worked hard to give us the skills and experience we'd need to be competitive with anyone and everyone. Thank god I had the opportunity to realize, in a safe, supportive environment, how much I absolutely love the world of robotics and how important it is to me to make great things happen. Thank god I know I love it, because if all I knew was that I regularly got treated like crap because of being a woman, well, I'd be out of here pretty quick.

It is getting better. My mother was one of the first women allowed to be hired into a male-dominated environment (the Air National Guard) and she had it much worse than I did. My life is easy compared to what she went through. But it ain't over yet, and unfortunately, that means things like all-girls teams are still necessary if we want to help even out the playing field.

So. The moral of the story is, there is a reason all-girls teams exist. They are not for everyone. One poster mentioned that she thought she was better working with men for having had a co-ed team experience; for me, it's the opposite. I think I'm more assertive, more confident, and more daring in my primarily male office for having had the experience of building all that confidence in an environment that was more comfortable. Not every school can or should offer an all-girls team, but I think for those who can, if it is an option, it can be a very, very valuable one.

Also, just to throw my opinion on another pile: all of the above said, I still really, really hate it when the judges or game announcers make a point of saying that a team is an all-girls team.