Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

why is having an exclusive team seen as a positive thing?.
i do not include teams that are hosted by all girl groups like girl scout troops or all girl schools or what ever. but teams that actively only allow girls in there community to join.
i feel if you made a team exclusive to boys then not only would people think it was nothing special but would think it was wrong. where a team that only allows girls to join is seen a positive. doesn't this just say that being female is a handicap?

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I do not believe so. It is still inspiring. I believe that having a minority group be the prominent demographic of a team is more inspiring than having the usual distribution of genders or ethnic groups.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

There was an all girls team that regularly competes at BAE, and they had male mentors. That being said, being an all girls team actually gave them an interesting point of view. They were not just FIRST, but habitat for humanity too. They received chairmans because there was a human aspect to their team. Nerdy girls are typically more humanistic than nerdy guys.

I don't mean to be biased, but speaking as the older brother of 4 sisters, girls have a different way of looking at things. All girl teams increase the impact of this human influence, and allow the importance to be blatantly obvious to other teams. Girls have this impact on all teams, but where there's an all girls team the impact is much greater. Also the girl who spoke at BAE was awesome, and once again showing, nerdy girls are more human.

I don't think its counterproductive because of the influence all girls teams have on the teams around them.

I would rather be on an all girls team than an all guys team. Actually during my time at WPI, I worked mostly with girls. I honestly think girls are often much better and much less stubborn then men. Girls are also better at working together than guys. Our egos get in the way. It is no way a handicap.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I see your point.
I think exclusive teams are okay as long as there is a local, viable team nearby for others to participate in. For instance, in some areas with high densities of FRC teams, girls could easily feel a bit lost on a huge team. It is probably far more encouraging for them to form their own team in that case. In a lot of areas though, it wouldn't work at all [whatever team formed for the boys would be pretty much all-male for one thing...]

Personally, I doubt I would enjoy being on an all-girls team, for a number of reasons [I have always been respected and treated very well by the boys both on my team and at regionals], but I don't think you can just forbid them from having exclusive teams. Because of the unique male/female dynamics of FIRST [relatively few girls, and I think girls can easily feel intimidated by the thought that 'boys know more about mechanical stuff than I do'] all-girl teams may well be the only way some girls would join FIRST.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Name some teams that are all girls teams that are formed solely to exclude boys. Do you know of any?

Also, does it hurt to use capitalization in your sentences? Just asking...

Jane

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I agree with your second point but question why you put it in this post as opposed to the hundreds of others that are just as bad that you have responded to without this question.


As for your first point, just because the OP doesn't know of a team doesn't mean they don't exist. Nor do they need to exist for his questions to valid. It is an important question to answer, should we encourage diversity?

I want to point to a thread a couple years ago in which a very similar question was raised and the lessons learned from an experiment attempted by 842.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=56504


I do have to wonder what the reaction would be if the roles were reversed, what would have happened if the OP had asked if all male teams should be allowed? Or if teams were allowed to discriminate against students who have learning disabilities or who don't speak English?

Rather than viewing this as saying that "all girl teams are evil!" or as "that is sexist!" view it as an opportunity to discuss the benefits of having a diverse team and why working with people who have different views than you is a good experience.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

As long as equal opportunity exists, there is nothing wrong with forming a team solely for females. If it means that males cannot take part, or would have hardships in taking part, then it's wrong. For example, if an all-girls team was formed in an isolated city that could only support one team and the guys would have to travel 50 miles to find a team, that would not be right.

Single-gender schools have shown positive results for both males and females. The same could be true for FRC teams.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Staying on topic regardless of grammar and punctuation....


What if the team also only had female mentors? What about a mix of female and male engineers?

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

In this case, the OP (original poster) created this thread. It takes time and effort to create a thread in ChiefDelphi. The topic that this OP is presenting also takes time and effort to think about and decide to create a thread about. (That's my opinion, of course - I realize that some people create threads without giving them much thought.) By using capitalization in the sentences and proper punctuation, the OP brings more credibility to the topic. It is a topic that I enjoy reading discussions about and I enjoy thoughtful posts regarding the topic of women in the fields of math, science, and engineering and girls on FRC/FTC/FLL/VEX/BEST teams that will help to increase the numbers of women in the fields of math, science, and engineering.

I hope this answered your question, Andrew. If not, let's take it to a private message.

Jane

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Team 2340 tried to have all female mentors to work along their all girls team but I don't think they were quite able to have it be exclusive to just females.
If a dad has skills in the shop and offers to help a team would be crazy to turn down assistance from someone who wants to help no matter what their gender is.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

And if a student has passion and wants to learn it would be crazy to turn them down just because they are slightly different than the norm.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I think having a "gender" quota is more counter intuitive than having an all female or male team.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

2340 was started at an all girls school that closed last year and absorbed by another Catholic School that has both genders but I'm told the school is not to interfere with the team's makeup at the risk of losing a huge donation to the school if they do.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Wait...am I understanding this right? If the team doesn't stay exclusively female students...they lose a sponsor/grant/donation?

Sounds kind of...wrong?

Now I'm curious about how 433 is actually run.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

So, if I am understanding this correctly, if the school asked the team to allow males on it the SCHOOL would lose donations?

Let me just tell you that being told, "I'm sorry but they have money" sucks. I was told that by a school principal once about 15 yrs ago. I was told I was wrong not because I was but because the other group donated money to the school. Do these people have any clue the effect this has on students?

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

It's a private donation so they can do what they want and the school can choose to honor the agreement or do as they are told. Private schools are often pressed for cash so they are no doubt inclined to respect the doner's wishes.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I know, my remark was more directed at the donor rather than the school. Makes you wonder what sort of person would want to teach kids that if you have money you can make the rules.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

This topic is not a topic that is cut and dried or black and white. I wish that it were and I wish that it would become so in my lifetime. At the rate we are moving, my lifetime will end and this will still be a topic of discussion that generates controversy.

Controversy can be very healthy and this is.

It's easy to be idealistic and say what's the big deal? Women have to work in the real world, they may as well get used to it by working on teams that include boys/men.

That's fine and dandy. Look at some of the winning teams' photos that are cropping up in CD and look at the team photos and mentor listings/descriptions on their websites. Where are the technical women mentors on the college level teams and the corporate level teams? Where are the majority of technical mentors that are women on these teams? See any?

Look around in the engineering and science classes in your high school and in your college courses and see how the numbers break down. I've talked with corporate leaders who are well aware of the lack of women in these fields and therefore, cannot hire them - because they don't exist.

How many girls actually go through the FRC program and decide on an engineering major? How many women that had their start in these robotics programs have gone on into fields of math, science, and engineering?

I welcome posts from the women who are scientists and engineers and who read CD. Share your thoughts.

Jane

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Well for one, I can say that a formal student/team captain goes to Harvey Mudd and studies Computer Science. She has started a FRC team this year. Her team won the LA Regionals as a rookie. Her younger brother goes to an all boy school and is on our team. Her father is a mentor for our team too.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I'm not an engineer... yet.

My sister started high school wanting to be a Vet. She was on 1675's team her senior year, which was also their rookie year. Between FRC and another adventure she was on, she picked engineering. Now she works for Lockheed Martin with her electrical engineering degree.

I wanted to be a journalist my freshman year, four years later, I can't see myself in anything other than engineering (granted metallurgy sounds pretty cool too). I plan on studying mechanical engineering in college.

FIRST works.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

i am a girl, and i agree. however, i know from personal experiences that girls have gotten less respect on our team just because we are girls. I have fought for it, and now, after what the 11th week of the season, we are finally treated equal. so i can see the point were they are promoting girls in engineering fields and trying to gain that respect (trust me, starting an all girls team just to get some respect for all the girls on our team has crossed my mind a few times) but it is counter productive as to that first is for everyone

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

It does but sometimes, students who are inspired in high school by being a part of a team, change majors in college - away from engineering.

Jane

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Lets look at the reasoning for "exclusively girls teams" They are not all bad, in fact, some only have girls who are able to join. Example: in MN, there is an all girl team (except maybe a handful of male mentors at most) because they have an all girls school. Many of the teams in MN only have students from one school including this team. This team has to be all girls because their school is all girls. They seem to do well year to year.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

i know for a fact that women of engineering will only support an all girls team, and if a team started up for all girls, had them as a sponsor, then added guys, they would loose that sponsor... which i get, but i think it is unfair

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

i like being on a co-ed team jane, but i wouldn't mind having an all girls team either. It sets them apart, and shows that girls CAN do things by themselves! i don't think its fair to start an all girls team at, for example, a school that is co ed, and has no other team, but starting an all girls team, when there is already an existing team wouldn't hurt anyone. I see both sides of the story, and have gone back and forth on this feed, because i feel both ways. For me, the biggest part of being an all girls team would be that you wouldnt have sexist comments from guys. I am a girl driver, and its hard to deal with the comments from the guys, but i proved that i was good, and so they stopped, where as an all girls team wouldnt have those kinds of comments.. it depends on how you look at it, but from being a girl in first, i dont neccisarily agree or disagree

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

In that other thread are some great posts by the girls on the teams and by Faridodin “Fredi” Lajvardi, co-mentor of team 842.
We have three "all-girl" teams out of our 15 VEX teams. They do a great job and they have a slight edge on the boys teams because they do a better job of listening to each other. One of the teams has a woman mentor, the other two have men. The teams are some of our strongest and they do know their robots. So in this case, it's not counter productive to have all-girls teams.

I agree with Fredi, it's not about the robots, but about the other stuff.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

In that thread, which is a valuable read, please also note how long it took for the girls on the team to post their thoughts. When they did, they did so very thoughtfully and very carefully, making sure that we, their readers, understood what they experienced and what their thoughts were regarding that experience.

Jane

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

This is a very interesting point that is rarely talked about in FIRST. Take a look at this post from 6 years ago by Andy Baker:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...4&postcount=54

Andy makes a list of 43 technical mentors who have had huge impacts on the engineering evolution of FRC. Every single one of them is a male. Why is that? Where are all our female rockstar engineers? Why aren't there female Raul Olivera's or Paul Copioli's? (I know they exist, but not nearly at the proportion that they should) It's an important question I've been pondering for years, but still don't have an answer for.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I personlly do not see an issue with an all girl FIRST Robotics team. If group of girls who share an interest and science and technology want to hang out and be on a robotics team, let them. Having girls interested is fantastic and being able to get thirty or forty girls on the team who enjoy it is great. I was impressed by the Girls Of Steel team at Pittsburgh this year. They were not afraid to get their hands dirty and built an impressive robot also. Some girls just want to hang around other girls. I`m sure these all girl teams wouldn`t say no to helping start another team that allows both genders anyway if one was started and needed help.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Unless the formation of the team is the result of battling marginalization from a coed team, which very well might be the case for some teams, I find that the formation of these teams are only adding to the overall sense of marginalization within a community and hindering the sense of equality.

This of course excludes cases where a team is formed from an all girls school or any other reasonable exception.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

well, the poll wasn't exclusively for all-girl teams...
Having been a girl scout leader and a 4-H leader, I have to argue that it's better to provide ample opportunities for kids to participate together in a positive, team-focused program that isn't focused on physical prowess. That's my answer on gender exclusiveness. But my pop, who was a civil, mechanical, and electrical engineer said "women make the best engineers" so I think making sure you have girls on the team is SUPER important!

As to being exclusive in any other way...I guess teams that are based in all-Christian schools are already that way, but as long as their bylaws don't specifically require members to be of some religious affiliation, they are OK with the philosophy of FIRST, which has no religious exclusivity implied.
Personally, I think most of our robotics programs are magnets for kids who are square pegs - those who don't necessarily do well in other school groups. I would love to see what the percentage is of our kids who have autism-spectrum disorders, for example.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I have no idea what a "female rockstar engineer" looks like, but it appears there have been many women who have won WFFA in the last 6 years. Maybe someone can update Andy's list.

I have worked with some women engineers locally who are terrific role models.

They more often are quietly working with teams, going about the business of mentoring in a way that matches what the team needs.

I have also had the pleasure of working with women engineers in the field of "engineering education" including some real rocket scientists.

FRC does not tell teams how they should run their team. So I am a little baffled by all the opinions here. I will try to read over the posts again to see what I am missing. For example, I just read a book about a FRC team where only seniors are allowed on the team...

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

At the GKC regional this year there was an all-male team. It was a all male military school. I'm sure there are many more all-male teams in situations like that too.

Although, I do support single gender teams especially within Girl Scouts because they are focusing on introducing the girls into technology. There are single gender schools that also have teams. Do you think they should combine with another single gender teams of the opposite sex?

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Our team was proud this year to recruit 11 new girls, bringing our total to 13. Yes, we only had two girls carry over from last year, which is to say, we had very few last year (5 out of 40). The team is now 13 out of 50 girls, which while not gender equal, is much closer to the same proportion of girls in tech classes. Though we have had some new...issues this year, it has certainly been a great experience. I couldn't imagine the team without either gender; some of the ladies have taken up very important fields (welding for one...)

In any case, I feel that any team made to exclude any group is bad, and shouldn't be allowed in FIRST, if not officially, it should be frowned upon. If someone founded a team in my school which disallowed girls (or guys) from joining, there would be quite a hullabaloo.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

One all-girls team that we have played before is the Robettes, from Mendota Springs, MN.

Their team is school based and they attend an all-girls Catholic school but their mentors appeared to be all male.

There is an all-boys Catholic school and all-girls Catholic school here in St. Louis, but they joined together to form one FRC team.

When the Robettes attended the St. Louis Regional, they'd wear very colorful hot pink tights and the plaid school skirts. Maybe a little distracting to the boys.. or is that part of their strategy? They always held their own against the mixed gender teams and usually went home with a trohphy of some kind.

The completion of the team stats each year for our team is interesting.. 1/2 of our team is homeschooled and many of those parents do not keep track of what 'grade' their student is in. This year we've got students from 5 different counties and 12 different schools, so it's quite the mix of students to figure out the % of low income students in your district.

On the Autism Spectrum question - by my 6 years of experience with the team, we've had 1-2 students every year that exhibit some spectrum behaviors. Does robotics draw those kind of kids in because it's ok to be a little obsessive about things that Autistic kids are good at like rules/safety or 3d animation? FIRST is different than most teams - it's ok to work on some things at your own pace, in your own way and still be part of a team, so maybe that is part of the attraction?

DeAnna

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

team 3504 was givin the funding by CMU to have an all girls team. im not saying they are there to exclude boys and i agree that maybe it is a more comfortable situation for girls to have that environment. but i think that teams should be open

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

In the last couple of years we have been having a declining enrollment of girls on the team when we usually have had more since I have been on the team (actually it's been rather difficult maintaining the student population period). Usually the best way to attract girls is when they have siblings (The Emerson girls for example) or friends.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

This topic is very very close to my heart, as I am a female engineer... am an engineer because of FIRST... and have seen how hard it is to be a female in engineering and how few women engineering role models there are.

I'll start with that I see absolutely nothing wrong with all-girls teams. Teams "exclude" all the time... some teams are seniors only, some require applications and hand select students, most ONLY allow students from their school. Whatever the reason, those teams aren't "complained" about. Exclusivity is not just in all girls teams.

1511's second year I organized a "Girls Night"... all the girls came over to my apartment, we had food, painted nails, stuff like that. Yes we excluded the boys on purpose, it was a chance for the girls & female mentors & moms to "bond". The boys complained to no end. I told them I had ZERO problem with the boys organizing a "boys night". Yet they never did.

I also offered to personally sponsor an all girls FLL team if one got started in the Rochester area. I feel VERY strongly that especially at the middle school age boys push girls aside and don't give them the chance/credit that they deserve. And most girls will just back off and let the boys do the work. This (IMO) is why so few girls end up in technical careers. The only girls that "make it" in engineering are the ones that aren't afraid to push past the boys and give it their all. I often see the same happen on FRC teams. Unless a mentor actively drags girls into design & engineering tasks, the girls often gravitate to things like the Chairmans Award, media, spirit, etc.

Thus I think an all girls team is a great way for girls to have exclusive access to all tasks and realize that they really CAN do it just as well as boys. The point isnt to exclude the boys or deny them opportunity, the point is to push the issue that arises when boys & girls mix. Now the real world is Co-ed, so to me FLL is the most appropriate place to do an all girls team. FRC should be a micrcosm of the real world. But I see the point of continuing it in FRC. I had the chance to see 2 all girls teams at DC, and it was great to see girls really getting their hands in the robots, not just standing on the sideline charging the batteries.

This provoked a lot of thought in my head... and also a little bit of hurt at first. I remember sitting at the Championship Panel presentation last year staring at all the men. It was frustrating and aggravating. I knew the answer to every question that was asked, and I was a female engineer. But I'm not a "Rock Star". Why? I have no idea really. I can talk gear ratios, battery capacities, power curves, PID loops, PWM wiring, networking, scouting statistics, rules & ranking points with anyone. But the odder thing was sitting there, knowing I knew all of that, yet I couldn't think of a single other female mentor that I knew that knew all the same. Every "involved" female mentor outside of my team that I could name was a team leader, a mom, a teacher... none were engineering mentors. Even sitting here now, I am dumbfounded to think of one. But I also think about nearly all my posts here on CD. Most have to do with organization, leadership, scouting, strategy, rules, etc... I don't do a lot of the tech-e talk here. And maybe thats what makes an FRC engineering rock star?

I graduated from Clarkson with an Electrical Engineering Degree and have worked as a Systems Engineer for nearly 9 years now. I have a nearly complete Masters in Robotic Intelligence from RIT. In looking at my career and watching other women, I have to say that I think some of what I have noticed has spilled over into FIRST.

In general, Women are big picture thinkers. They are organizers, they are managers. Its the reason I gravitated towards systems engineering. I liked the big picture better than sitting at a desk drawing up digital electronics for the rest of my life. I like having enough technical depth to work with customers to define their exact needs and define the requirements & specifications for our products & systems. Am I doing the board layout? no. Do I do the packaging design? no. Do I design the power circuits? no. Do I program in the networking stack? no. But can I tell you a heck of a lot about all of it? of course. Its the same reason I liked being an FRC team leader, and the team's systems engineer.

I guess I wish I knew how to change this. We need to find the female engineering mentors in FIRST and start having them present/co-present technical conferences at the championships. We need to start showing the girls on the teams that there are female engineering "rock stars" to look up to.

But personally, I think its fine to have all-girls teams. For the original poster... Think about the DC regional you were just at... even with 2/63 FRC teams being all-girls, I guarantee that less than 20% of the students attending the event were female. (And heck, I know the boys on our team loved having the all-girls Waldo team to "hang around" with!) Plus I am pretty certain that there was an All-Boys team there... and no one complained (Boys Latin School).

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

The Robettes have both male and female mentors.

As long as it isn't preventing males from participating (either they have another team as an option, or there aren't any to exclude like in 2177's case) I have no problem with all female teams. If the mentors of that particular team think that is the best way to work towards the goals of FIRST, who am I to say otherwise?

Note: The above doesn't mean that I would be against female teams even if I felt it were my place to judge.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

You don't have girls' basketball, soccer, lacrosse, volleyball, softball, or track?

Jane

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Can i just say thank you. This really is an inspiration to me. I am a girl that wants to be an engineer, and we lack female mentors. I worked on the robot, on drive team, yet did doc. & pub. and spirit. I think it is so important to have girls, and its nice to see/ hear from a woman that was in first and moved into engineering. You are an inspiration, and thanks!

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I've always referred to you as The Prototype, Kim. You were what Dean envisioned when he started FIRST. Started out as a dedicated student, went to college and started a successful FIRST team and started another successful FIRST team when you went out into the workforce.
That is terrific for anyone no matter what their gender is.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

This might be a good topic for a different thread: What makes an engineering rock star?

My thinking: visibility. It could be via forums, videos, emceeing/announcing... there are WFAs that are very quiet and have very little presence outside perhaps their own local sphere. They are well-respected but are they rock stars?

Do girls need rock stars or do they desire more? Intelligence, visionary thinking, aptitude, common sense, hands-on applications, efficiency, knowledge?

I'm not dissing rock stars but it's funny that you were in the audience at that conference presentation instead a part of the panel. Not surprising though. Just as the powerful teams need to find a way to invite a worthy rookie team to be a part of their alliance, so do the powerful male mentors need to find ways to be more inclusive with their invites. And, they should have been all along - if they would like to help shift the culture. If not, no biggie. FIRST needs to step it, too - helping to highlight women and minorities in their webcasts/videos, like the Kick Off webcasts/videos - giving women more opportunities than just introducing a male VIP or FIRSTer - if they want to shift the culture. If not, no biggie.

Jane

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Despite some slight grammar issues, I want to thank the OP for bringing up a topic that has actually been on my mind for a little while.

To anserw the question as to wether all Girls teams are counterproducive, I don't think so. The philosphy, or at least part, is to get youth involved with Science and Technology, and if there is a FIRST team, I'm sure these ideals are being met.

I understand completely the need to get more females involved both in FIRST and the various STEM fields used into today's world. All girls teams do a great job showcasing the need to get more female involved, both as students and mentors, and I commend them for that.

However beyond publicity and awareness, I fell that having an all girls, or all guys team for that matter, doesn't add to the program.

Part of FIRST is to try to lay the groundwork of working with others, a skill that will be needed in the workplace. I feel that if you want to get that right, teams that have both males and females is the way to go. I understand that this is not always the truth (I'm not trying to be stereotypical) but as a member in any workplace, usually working with a member of your own gender, and working with a member of another gender are going to be different.

What I'm trying to say is that I am 100% fine gender specific teams, or any team that have special criteria for that matter, but if you want to go above and beyond, having a great mix of people on your team will make the experience that much better.

I apologize in advance for any un-clarity in my thoughts - as I've said in the past I'm better with oral expression vs. written expression.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I can see that this discussion is going to get a lot of posts.

Are you talking about a team from an all-girls school? There isn't any problem with that, then.

A team from a co-ed school, though, is another matter. If there is another team at the same school that is all-male, it would still not work. (remember Plessy v. Ferguson?) I personally think they are a bad idea, because they cause tension whether or not they have a male counterpart, and because of society's view of all-male groups versus all-female groups, the practice of two teams would be condoned merely for the existence of the all-male group. Plus, there is not really any reason to split the teams.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I don't think all girl teams work against FIRST's goals.

If you look at other sporting competitions you see a clear division between male and female teams (better said, leagues). The reasons for this can go unspoken, but does this division have a negative impact on the sport's primary purpose? If you asked people this I would imagine most would say it doesn't.

What makes FIRST any different? What makes FIRST different is that an all girl team has the same chances (maybe even better chances as described by earlier posters) as guy/girl team, competing in the same competition, to gain the title as winner. Imagine the inspirational impact on those girls when they win that regional (whether it be winner, or chairmans).

The real problem would be if there was a girl only team in the community with only one FRC team, and leads no attempt to start another team for guys (or the other way around). Although, I believe that is a discussion to be left for another time.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

they do that because girls and boys are physicality different saying that this is the same would suggest that girls and boys are incapable of competing against each other fairly in a FIRST competition

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Yes, but that post stated a team, it did not state - a robotics team. I chose not to assume something about that post that was not stated clearly.

This is a good topic and I'm glad that you have started this discussion. It makes people uncomfortable and sometimes when people are out of their comfort zones, they actually have to do some thinking and become more aware of the status quo.

If people really wanted to do some thinking, they could look at grants and scholarships that are available to women and minorities. That would help deepen their awareness or make them think harder - so much so that maybe it would make their head hurt. :)

Jane

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Every time people speak of gender roles and equality, they make mentions of the way men and women think differently. Some can try and state one is smarter or better, but I've yet to see any proof to that extent. I have, however heard of study after study that proves we think differently. These differences mean that we aren't the same. We can be equal, but not truly the same. Each job requires a specific skill set and style of thinking/acting in order to do well. If we think differently depending upon our gender, wouldn't it only make sense that some fields would be made up of mostly men while others be made up of mostly women? I don't believe that its simply cut and dry, boys are good at this and girls are good at that. Some of us think differently then our gender would dictate. I'm perhaps the least hands-on engineering student I know. I don't like working with cars or even care how they work. I like the design side of engineering. I know girls in my classes that are very hands on that I'd gladly ask to change a tire or check any other car problem if I needed it. That said, there is a general variation between the sexes. It would seem that engineering fields tend to align with the men's thinking processes so it really wouldn't make sense for engineering to be a perfect 50-50 split. Should it be 60-40? 70-30? 80-20? or should we even really say? I find the problem with mindless feminism* is that it isn't actually feminism at all. I treat girls the way I'd treat a guy(besides some basic chivalry acts). If a FIRST team is all-female due to being an all-girls school or the sort, that is fine. I understand this and have no issues with it. However, I have noticed a few stating that nobody is hurt in situations when girls choose to be on their own team if there are enough in the area. I disagree. I think all sexists need to be put in their place every once in a while. If the girls simply avoid the problem, the problem doesn't go away. The boys will probably just become more stereotyping. Even seeing an all-girls team do well at competition allows them to see girls do well once. Seeing girls on their team taking on leadership roles and doing technical work allows them to see girls do well for weeks. The girls are also going to learn they can do well at the cost of learning to assert themselves. In short, there are definite benefits to having some all-girls teams. It allows them to see how good they are while not getting pushed around. However, this is not an ideal solution. There should be a way of helping the girls without segregating.

To summarize my thoughts, there isn't going to be an 50-50 distribution for most fields due to inherent differences of gender. This does not say we are not equal, but it does suggest we should stop pushing for a 50-50 distribution and just ensure that anyone that wants into the field is allowed and welcome.This means not only that they are allowed on the team but that they are not discriminated against. This discrimination includes any act that treats them differently then any other member of the team. As long as we can guarantee that all are allowed and welcome, we really shouldn't be placing our own bias on how many of which gender we believe should be on the team.

I apologize for this lengthy post after not posting for a while. I hope it was all worth reading.

Jason

*I specifically said mindless feminism. By that, I refer to those that suggest anything that pushes for "equality" without thinking about the actual word equal.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?

Simply put, no. F.I.R.S.T. is For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology. These teams inspire girls to pursue science and technology (I have no statistics to prove this but I am going to assume as such).

Are they (or any team that excludes based on something petty) the best at inspiring science and technology? I doubt it. A diversified team can bring more ideas and different view than one that is not.

Now to address the question in your poll. Should exclusive teams be allowed in FIRST?

IMO no. I don't care if your parents paid money to send you to an exclusive school or if mentors or sponsors feel that it is in the best interest for XYZ to happen. You WILL at some point have to work with other kinds of people. If you demand to not work with person X because they are ______, your going to be the one on the ugly end of the stick.

I have seen people talk about awards or how well a team's robot did. I find this information counterintuitive to the point that should be expressed in this thread.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Hmm. But I don't think the FIRST program is so "do or die", for lack of a better term. The experience of being on a robotics team is life-changing no doubt; I'm female and have always wanted to become a scientist to some degree and FIRST gives me first-hand experience into the world of technology every day(: But I think the view of FIRST vigorously churning out generation after generation of young thoughtful students bounding into various STEM fields is... unrealistic and not exactly the ideal goal of the program. The real problem may be the inaccessibility & lack of appeal of engineering to youth around the country.

The problems really can't be blamed upon the lack of all girl teams/mentors/ general female involvement in the FIRST community nor can one force the collaboration of all these people in order to change mindsets of girls in general. So far, I think First does what it can and does it well! As sophomore in high school knowing my locknuts, bearings, transmissions, etc. definitely stands proof!

You bring up good points, Jane! :) :) :)

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

But there is also a boys basketball, soccer, lacrosse, volleyball, softball, and track.

You would be hard pressed to find a school/area with enough money/sponsors to support two teams so close.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I am the captain of an all girls team. We are not all-female because we have anything to prove, but merely because we are based out of an all-girls school.

Coincidentally, my cousins are on an all boys team you may have heard of:
254 Cheesy Poofs is a male-team. No one has ever had a problem with that. They are based out of a Boys school.

All of our mentors are men, which has led to some interesting working environments, because yes, girls do not learn the same way as boys do. Most of girls join us never using a tool before and often scared to use power tool. But girls leave our program with welding and machining experience and about 75% go on to study a STEM career.

At Alamo and Lone Star we have girl come to our pit saying "You guys are an all girl team? Really? The girls on our team just do outreach and PR." If this is the result of a co-ed team, I fear for the future of engineering.

Our team strives to be a normal team and escape the stigma that comes with being an all-femal team. However, we strive to show girl that YES they can be successful in a STEM situation (we are a 3rd year team, 2 time finalist, alliance captain, Engineering Inspiration winners, and 2 time spirit award winners) and that girls belong building the robot and not just in PR.

A girls-team is the perfect place for girls to learn about technology, why? Because more timid girls will not be embarrassed or intimidated by male-peers who are more likely to have experience with tools and be less timid around them. You can accuse me of making assumptions, but studies show girls learn better in an all female environment while boys learn better in a co-ed environment because of this reason.

On final note consider this. Before every match, my team is not announced as "3103 the team from Duchesne Academy" we are "3103 the GIRLS from Duchesne Academy" I am not ashamed to be a girl, but does it really matter if your team has girls, boys, or is co-ed? Aren't we all trying to achieve the same things?

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I never blame outcomes on the structure of a team, I see everything as an effect of the people involved.

If the mentors on those teams are not encouraging ALL students on the team to learn about ALL aspects of the team, they might be missing the point of an FRC team.

Again, don't blame the structure of a team, blame the people involved.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I'm not saying there needs to be. I was addressing the word, hullabaloo. Did I spell that right?

Honestly, my thinking is constantly evolving, thanks to some wise mentors who have spent time talking with and mentoring me. One is Sarah Plemmons from FRC 1902, Exploding Bacon. Another is Cynette Cavaliere from FRC 1511, Rolling Thunder. Another is Andy Baker from well, we know who Andy is and where he is from, but for this discussion, he is a WFA 2003 from the TechnoKats, FRC 45, and from AndyMark, Inc. These 3 have helped me in my road to understanding the roles of women in this robotics world and what their impact is on our future world of math, science, and engineering. I have also been inspired by posts made here in CD by Dave Lavery, Engineering mentor for FRC 116, and Program Executive For Solar System Exploration for NASA, and by the thread that we referred to here in this thread, where FRC 842, Falcon Robotics, undertook an incredible experiment/journey and came out wiser for it and able to share their wisdom with us, the FIRST and CD community.

I value the all-girls teams like 2881, the Lady Cans, here in Austin, a Girl Scout team that is so inspirational to be around and to compete with. I also value teams like FRC 234, Cyber Blue, a co-ed team that has a selection process. If you study that team and its business plan, you will understand the thinking, the process, and the team's standards of excellence. No team should be denied entrance into FIRST or judged by how it represents itself and its community. It may have goals and purposes that we will only learn about by asking its membership or reading its Chairman's submission and business plan. Because you feel a certain way today, don't let that stop you from learning and thinking about tomorrow. Allow yourself some discomfort when thinking about change.

Jane

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

While I don't have a strong opinion about girls teams. I still feel the need to stomp out any sports comparisons. First is not a sport. Just because you have a team doesn't make it a sport. And the only reason sports separate girls and boys are due to the physical differences between their bodies.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Just to tell you, there was a girl on a local varsity football team a few years back. And another freshman football team2 years ago. (different schools) and they weren't the kicker, they were tight ends

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

You are correct, its just I have seen this occur numerous times and it breaks my heart.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I'm not really sure what to think of this thread, but I have a few things to say (I think they're relevant, but if they are not please do let me know). Why does it matter who (students and mentors) comprise a team. Yes, if a team is denying letting a certain student in for being male or female that is discriminatory. If a team is all male, all female, or split down the middle, what does it matter. If they are successful what does it matter? Success can be measured in many different ways whether success is completing the robot or winning the competition, if a team is successful, why does it matter who comprises the team? (Yes it is great to have a team in which half is female and half is male, because let's face it the STEM world is primarily male dominated, and females in the field are rare to come across so getting them involved is FANTASTIC!) A team is a team and functions as one, if the team is all girls that's great, if it's all guys that's great too, and if it's a mix of many diverse students that's great as well. In my opinion, the things that matter are a.) were the teams end goals met and b.) did everyone have fun?

This is just my $0.02. Feel free to comment as necessary. :)

Cass

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

This is true in every single way. We take the time to teach our students each aspect of our team and let them choose what department they want to be apart of. All the mentors and students involved are what make the team.

Cass

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Apparently now it's popular to attack all girls teams, especially if you're an adolescent male who's never been on them. Whatever happened to the "live and let live" attitude toward team organization these same posters were pushing on people every time people argue about student versus mentor built robots? Does that just go away when something you disagree with happens?

Here's what happens with girls on many, MANY FRC teams. A girl joins. This girl is intimidated by the prospect of building a robot and doesn't have the expertise the boys do. She is pushed by other team members, consciously or subconsciously, toward Chairman's, Safety, or other parts of the team that aren't engineering related. This girl is now not doing anything relating to why she joined the team and gives up. The above cycle happens on so many teams it's not even funny. When a boy joins and doesn't know about robot making, his peers welcome and teach him. When a girl joins, she has to fight for that - but the societal pressures, team pressures, and general social stigma lead her away from that.

Yes, I know there are exceptions to the above rule - usually very independent, strong willed girls. But this does happen, a lot.

What all girls teams do is eliminate all of that. The environment is suddenly not so alien. They now have to learn about the robot, because no one else is going to do it. This gives them opportunities they might not have on mixed gender teams.

So maybe this isn't how your team runs, and maybe it isn't how you want your team to run. But, as with many team styles that aren't your own - there are good reasons behind what they do, so how about you live and let live instead of criticizing someone for actually trying to address a great societal problem in an innovative way.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Personally, I have been pushing girls to try programming or something. It's great to see that one responded and I will start teaching her C++ or Java starting next week or something. The others did not want to program, but wanted to design and fabricate the drive or the next year's game piece manipulator. This year, the arm and claw was designed by an all freshman girl trio. The problem is that there aren't enough girls that join. I am nominating a girl for team captain next year fearing that I will become a dictator.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

What doesn't matter: Whether a team is all boys/girls/californians/etc.
What does matter: The work environment and outlook on group participation that the mentors foster.

For example, we're not an all girls team, but most of the student work on the robot is done by girls. We don't treat them any differently from the guys. And I'd be willing to put a couple of our girls up against any of the "best" and "brightest" students in FRC.

So really I think "all-anything" teams, with the exception of all girls/boys schools, are counter productive. If a couple of college guys can run a team where female high schooler involvement drives the creation of the robot, anyone can. You need to put everyone on a level playing field. Sure some of the girls (and boys) may need a bit of a push from the mentors to get them to feel comfortable joining the conversation, but you can't treat your team members differently in group situations based on that.

It's not fair to let "all-this" or "all-that" labels lower expectations for a particular group. I've never once in my time in FRC witnessed someone change their expectations of a team in a positive way once they heard it was all girls/boys/student-built/etc. It sucks, but it's the truth. I mean what are the boys who are supposedly pushing them out of the way supposed to think when they see some girls get a special all girls team? It just drives the division.

Am I absurdly off the mark here?

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

As a member of an all-girls team that shares a lab with an all-guys team, and currently attending a school with a co-ed team, I think that there's nothing particularly wrong, or right with any of these systems. Am I glad that I am on the team I am? Yes. Do we occasionally get all sorts of responses we'd rather not receive? Of course.

I think that female teams offer a much more comfortable environment for girls who are intimidated by the level of prior knowledge and intensity on some teams. I've found that most of the guys on both the all-guys team and the co-ed team had some experience with engineering, machining, programming and electronics before they joined. This is true of some girls on our team and on the co-ed team, but there are a lot fewer of them. If you are going into robotics as a girl, with no experience, it can be an uphill battle.

On the whole a lot of our team members are people who probably would not have joined FIRST if our team was not available. We tend to attract a demographic that is not the FIRST norm and have had great success with introducing a wider range of girls to science and technology, which is the point of having a team in the first place. Personally I think this is exactly supporting the philosophy of FIRST.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Like Kim, this is a topic close to my heart -- as I am also a female engineering student who is close to completing her degree.

There is a false equivalency being presented in the OP's poll question, which asks -- "should exclusive teams be allowed in FIRST?"

The question implies that having a female-exclusive team is equivalent to having a male-exclusive team. Let me ask you this question -- do you think that a team which only includes ethnic minorities is just as discriminatory as a whites-only team?

I sure hope that the answer is no -- as there is a clear difference between starting a team to give a leg-up to underrepresented minority groups, versus starting a team which allows only white students (who already enjoy a great deal of cultural advantage within STEM fields).

Likewise, starting a male-only team only serves to reinforce dominant cultural narratives that engineering/science is meant only for boys. There is already a WHOLE WORLD out there telling young men and boys that -- yes, if you are smart enough and work hard enough -- science and engineering are easily accessible careers for you. To deliberately exclude women from a team (other than by circumstance, such being from an all-boys school) is unequivocally sexist, just as a whites-only team would be unequivocally racist.

But what about the girls? We are not advantaged in the same way men are. All of our young lives have been punctuated with subtle messages that we should leave mechanics and electronics and computers to the guys. Starting literally from day one, media (especially advertising) shows us that girls play with dolls, furry animals, and tea-sets (and generally act passively), whereas boys play with legos, transformers, and nerf-guns (and generally act assertively). Just take a walk down the toy aisles at Toys-R-Us, or watch the advertising on a channel like Cartoon Network that's geared towards children -- it's clear that these ideas about technology and gender are instilled in us from a very young age.

When I was in high school, I ran several Lego League teams and summer camps. One summer, I ran a girls-only camp called RoboCamp for Girlz. We surveyed the students about why they never felt comfortable joining the co-ed Lego League team or summer-camp. The responses were summed up by one particularly memorable quote by one of the girls -- "I was afraid that it would just be taken over by the boys." We have been conditioned since birth to just leave the mechanics/electronics to the guys... and holding our own in those realms can be pretty intimidating sometimes.

Some people have expressed worry that girls-only teams will not prepare girls to work in a mixed-gender environment. I disagree however -- my RoboCamp for Girlz helped the girls build a foundational level of confidence -- such that they had no worries about being pushed aside by the boys once they joined the co-ed team. The boys already had that foundational level of confidence just by virtue of their upbringing. The girls-only program merely served to level the playing field.

I really believe that there is a place for programs which give a leg-up to culturally disadvantaged students. They enable the participants to envision themselves successfully completing engineering challenges, without external judgments about their gender or race weighing them down. One of the hardest things about being a woman in engineering (and probably for ethnic minorities in engineering too) is having your failures being representative of your gender (or race), not who you are as an individual. The following xkcd comic just about sums it up:



-- Jaine

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

thank you for your thoughts i am glad most of you are taking this maturely and putting though into everything that you are saying.

again i would like to state that i do not include teams based out of already exclusive groups like schools and scouts.

though my years on my team i have worked with and developed close relationships with people that i probably would have never met without FIRST mentors and students we were always equal maybe things are different on other teams but i never saw women being discouraged from doing anything on our team and were always clearly just as capable as anyone (if not more as in many cases). it would certainly be nice to see more women mentors. but there really are not many out there and that is because historically that is not seen to be a womans profession and first is there to change that by exposing students to these fields because things certainly feel more tangible when you see peers doing them.
FIRST's goal, as it has been explained to me, is not to make everyone who joins become an engineer or whatever but to expose as many people who would not be exposed otherwise as possible to the field. and with that in mind it is certainly important to get girls involved but when groups will only fund/support a team that is "girls only" then you are placing that one demographic at a higher importance. and that is where i see these teams conflicting with FIRST's philosophy. why are all girl teams seen as more impressive when they exclude men from joining? wouldn't it me more impressive to have a strong female population on a co-ed team, showing that they have encouraged others that statistically are less likely to have tried it out? why is it when they announce all girl teams at competition they announce them as all girl teams just as they announce a team from a school for the deft like they had to over come a challenge just because they are girls? the formation of all girl teams seem to be more for political reasons then for the benefit of the members of the team

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Team Hammond (FRC #71) is one of the winningest FRC teams around. The team operates under an explicit "Golden Rule": Their sponsor has the gold, so gets to make the rules.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I'm not on an all-girls team (last year we had 3 girls and 25 guys, this year we have 7 girls and 30 guys), but I have found that a lot of people are surprised when they find out that I do a lot of mechanical and machine work. I try to talk to other teams as much as I can at events, and most people sound really impressed about that. I think that I've only had three or four people blatantly say "our girls pretty much just do PR," but it is still obvious that a lot of other teams are like that as well.

Welcome to Michigan, namely SE Michigan. Oakland County has an insane density of FRC teams, and many of them are big-name teams to boot: Killer Bees, Wings of Fire, HOT, RUSH. I know that Rochester Community Schools sponsors two teams (201 and 245). Returning to Wayne County, there are two teams located in the Grosse Pointes, one from the public schools (1189) and one from a local private school (3175)...and we are by no means a large city. Our public school system will not allow students who do not attend our public schools to join 1189 due to liability, tax, and political issues.

Back on topic:
I don't have a problem with single-gender/"exclusive" teams. Single-gender schools will often lead to single-gender teams. While all-girl teams don't give the girls the kind of real-world immersion into science and technology that a co-ed team would - the male-dominated environment - they do eliminate the gender-domination issues that sometimes happen on co-ed teams. No girl will be faced with sexual discrimination of any kind on an all-girls team. For some, that's the only barrier preventing them from doing mechanical work, or even joining a team. The girls will still have to work with male students at events. They're not totally isolated from the real world. No matter how much anyone argues "well, they have to get used to dealing with men," that doesn't solve the problem of girls not joining a team because they're scared of the boys.

Is it fair to the boys who want to join a team, but said team restricts itself to females? No. So therefore, should all-girls (or all-boys, or all-Jewish, or all-anything) teams not be allowed? IMO, no - you'll be hard-pressed to find a blanket rule that benefits everyone. I think a rule saying that a FRC team must be open to any student willing to join would hurt far more people than it would help, since many districts, schools and clubs only allow students from that district, school or club to join that organization's sponsored activities.

Since we're talking about female underrepresentation in engineering:
I think that I am very fortunate in my immersion into engineering. I joined my team during the first year that they started really pressing females to do robot-related work, and thus I did not face any discrimination when I started working in the shop. Still, I would not have gone to my first work session if I had not gone with my friend. I didn't know anyone on the team at that point, and was a very shy freshman who had real problems with introducing myself to new people. If I hadn't gone with her, I wouldn't have gone at all, and probably would have stopped showing up shortly after Kickoff because I wouldn't have had anything to do (we didn't really have any kind of designated PR team at that point, just a few upperclassmen that I didn't know and were not actively recruiting PR members). By the end of freshman year, I was a lathe operator. My friend dominated the mill. We were both part of the uncrate team and the pit crew. She became our build group leader sophomore year. We never faced discrimination from the male members of our team. Due to my establishment as a hardworking team member, I haven't had any problems from new mentors and students over the past few years.

If I had joined an all-girls team, I would not have felt so intimidated about going to work sessions. However, I don't think that I would be as comfortable around guys as I am now. I'm sure that my involvement in other male-dominated activities (radio astronomy team, drumline) has helped with that, but I joined the radio astronomy team because of the influence of a female teacher, and the drumline because of the influence of a female friend. It takes a lot of willpower for a girl just out of the torments of middle school to find her place in a male environment without another female to help her along the way.

As a note, I don't think that 1189 has had a female engineering mentor until this year, which is our 9th season. We didn't have a female build group leader until the 2008-09 season, or a female build captain until 2009-10.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Just out of curiosity-- are there many all-female teams that are not based out of a school or Girl Scouts?

Those are the only two groups I have ever run into that support all-girls teams, and the only Girl Scout team I've ever met is our own (I know there was another Girl Scout FRC team in Austin on 2009 and 2010 but I don't think they're operational this year).

If so, are these teams more common in other parts of the country? Does anyone have any reason why that might be? The last regional my team attended there were only 3 all-female teams out of ~55 teams, and two of those were from Catholic high schools (the other one was us).

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

If you are talking about the Lady Cans, FRC 2881, they competed at Lone Star this year.

Jane

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I find it interesting that you would bring this up, and that I would read this. The situation which you described is very similar to what my team did. We are from an all-boys Catholic high school. For our first year, we were an all boys team. Over the summer, we opened membership to a local all-girls Catholic high school. Currently, we have about 2 or 3 active members from the girls school.

When we first opened membership, there was a very good response. Roughly 30 or 40 girls showed up to our "orientation" meeting, which we held to get the girls ready for an all girls competition hosted by the Firebirds (FIRST Team
433). About 10 of those girls showed up to the competition, which was about all we had enough room for. Since then, we haven't seen most of those girls (many of whom admitted to their friends that they showed up for the boys. Who can blame them? We've got some fine looking gentlemen on our team! :p ).

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Generally, because of our culture, girls do not enter high school with the same technical skill set (power tools, mechanics, etc) that boys do and male mentors value. As a result, girls, generally, lack the experience that would allow them to excel in a relatively short time. Males, culturally, have a great advantage entering engineering fields.

The 842 "We Left the Boys at Home" showed how quickly the girls learned with the experience of designing, maintaining our robot at a competition.

I emailed the girls who were on that team to read this thread. Most of them have or are about to graduate with an engineering degree. Hopefully, some will share their experiences.

We are also dong research on gender distribution in engineering education, engineering companies, and FIRST competitions. While we had not completed our study, the U.S. has a lot of "culture changing" to do before women are equals in STEM education and employment. While FIRST actively seeks to attract women and minorities into FIRST teams and STEM, it is obvious that women are not yet on par with men in their numbers nor their responsibilities on teams, and in FIRST itself.

So what can we do to "change the culture" so more females will participate? I think an all girls team is a great experiment.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

thank you i hope they do too.


I am not attacking any teams and i hope nobody else here is. i am just proposing a thought i have not seen this presented anywhere before bur according to you it has come up before so maybe this is worth thinking about.

As for student vs. mentor built robots. Please keep this out of my thread i would like this to keep on subject.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

As long this is the opinion of the majority, those that believe in equality will have failed. To truly support equality you must try to remove the differences that are already there, not instigate new ones to balance the problem. Yes, you can allow for about the same opportunity by doing this but in the end everyone is just going to be prejudiced against in different ways. I firmly believe in equality in its purest form. If you want to make things "fair" eliminate the cultural advantages given to the white males. Teach your little girl to use a power drill and other tools. The only way we'll ever have a truly equal situation is if we start giving our girls lego's and our boys dolls. Treat them the same, and in their eyes they will be. Anything less isn't true equality at all and to some extent abandonment of the original goal.

I know its hard to have a co-ed scenario where the girls and boys have equal treatments. I'd suggest rather then separating the two completely, to find a way to work together. The real world has made it work, why can't we? In the business world, a person who makes sexist/racist comments is fired. Why shouldn't we be similar? It could be immediate removal from the team depending on the nature, but at the very least sent home from the meeting or reassigned to a less favorable task. A year working on shirt designs and PR would certainly make the guys think twice before suggesting a girl be better suited there.

In short, treat the problem not the symptoms. Otherwise the problem will never be solved.

Jason

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

While I'll withhold judgment as to the best course of action with respect to teams and gender constraints, I note that there's both a short-term and a long-term component to this sort of question.

For example, is it always objectively preferable to immediately banish discrimination at every turn? Or are there legitimate reasons for using those classifications as a proxy for hardships that are systematically related to disadvantaged groups?

When the same classifications that were once used to discriminate against a group are instead used to improve the relative standing of that group (in other words, to discriminate in their favour), there is presumably a tangible benefit to the disadvantaged demographic in the short term. Contrast that with a strict equality regime, suddenly imposed—will we actually see that same degree of improvement with any immediacy? Over the long term, so long as some sort of social mobility is possible, it's plausible that the social situations will average out—but should we as a society wait that long? Is that actually the right thing to do, given that the affected people may not personally reap the benefits of this enlightenment within their lifetimes?

I note that this isn't really about "righting historical wrongs" (as such endeavours are often misconstrued). It is fundamentally more about using an approach that is feasible in the context of society, and which results in a modest but tangible short-term improvement rather than an idealized, hypothetical long-term benefit.

Practically speaking, isn't it easier to segregate a few all-girl teams than it is to remove the relevant cultural obstacles? While this is somewhat lacking in elegance, once the "friction" in the system is accounted for, it may prove to be the only reasonable course of action. (After all, given the political and social climate in the United States, would it actually be possible today to impose a perfect equality between women and men?)

In short, if there are practically unassailable barriers to treating the root cause, is it appropriate to treat some symptoms instead? Possibly.

What if the treatment exacerbates some symptoms (employs discrimination) while alleviates others (disadvantages of being female)? Isn't this situation-dependent? I don't think that the assumption that all discrimination is equally odious is appropriate here.

Ideally, yes, in civilized society, such consequences exist. The reality is a lot less clear-cut—to the point where I must strenuously object to the notion that these are solved problems in the real world. Sexism and racism (in the negative sense—discrimination against those groups) are hardly artifacts of the past. In the same jobs, with the same responsibilities (i.e. controlling for a number of explainable differences), women in the United States earn substantially less than men on an annual basis (ranging from around 10% to 30%, depending on the study). Members of racial and ethnic minorities are similarly observed to be systematically less successful than might be inferred from their qualifications. One potential explanation for those disparities is that racism and sexism have not been banished, but merely driven deeper, into places beyond the reach of simple occupational regulations.

Another problem I have with this comparison is that business dealings are driven to a much greater extent by a model of economic costs and benefits. The difficulties of describing social justice in terms of economic value are a constant thorn in the side of economic theory. At present, if we were to take a cynical view of the situation, we might say that a person is fired if the costs of defending them against the allegations of impropriety outweigh the benefits of retaining them. It's easy to let a middle manager go—they're a dime a dozen, but if the successful CEO is the subject of the alleged wrongdoing, a simple firing isn't the usual course of action.

Now, although I disagree with your comparison to the business world, I do see value in disincentivizing insensitive behaviour. But a year's worth of penance? It won't work, except in the rarest of cases. This is a voluntary activity, and high school students are not to be trifled with—if they sense you're just punishing them to prove a point, or if they decide that their new assignment doesn't interest them anymore, most will just quit. And if they leave, either out of dissatisfaction or because you actually kicked them off, there are plenty of other things to occupy (and perhaps even inspire) them. These sorts of drastic measures are last resorts—the actions you take when you're not sorry to see them go, because their continued presence and behaviour is so intolerable that you've exhausted all other options.

Their ignorance needs to be alleviated with education, not crushed with discipline.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

With regard to the original question, "allowed" implies a regulatory solution. I think there's a broader question: should gender-specific teams be encouraged within FIRST?

The regulatory angle is one way to discourage them (or eliminate them entirely), but it shouldn't be the only thing we consider.

From a formal point of view, I'd need strong evidence that they were almost always a bad thing to ban them, but would be satisfied with moderate evidence that they were usually bad as a reason for discouraging them, and would interpret ambiguous evidence as a reason for not actively encouraging them. Those represent several degrees of "no", but I think they better express the continuum of options.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

3103 Iron Plaid from Houston, but we are based out of a school.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Coming from a non-exclusive team where the girls are generally more enthusiastic, more creative, and more focused, I can't say it would be a bad thing. We've seen some pretty fantastic all girl teams, absolutely.

That said, I team which is on-policy female-only is not right. You have legal issues, you have ethical issues. It's a mess. The exact same if it's a male-only by policy team.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

i am not attacking anyone and i am certainly not saying that any teams should be kicked out of FIRST i am just proposing a question that from your statement seems to be on the mind of more people than myself

i would like to refine my objection a bit to focus more on the teams who have sponsors that will only support them if they stay all girl. especially when said sponsor is not already a feminist group they simply start a all girl team because thats what they want there name attached to for political reasons. this is in no way on the fault of the students or mentors but still seems to be an abuse of the system for the sponsor's political gain.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I like this discussion ... a lot.

- Regardless of the OP question which I think is tough to answer at all, I like Patrick's amended question and I like the broader discussion even more.

-Karthik's "Rock Star" strain here is a good one. There are examples of female FIRST alums and what they are doing who are being promoted - I saw one speak at the Robotics Ed Caucus lunch briefing I attended fall 2009 and another I worked with personally who has been featured in FIRST marketing, etc. However, I'm unsure of the total numbers (probably small), and the numbers of female grads actually mentoring and working with teams. I'd venture a guess that, since STEM fields have been historically "male dominated" that finding the career female engineer/scientist who isn't a FIRST alum to hold up as an example would be somewhat harder than finding the younger female engineer/scientist who is a FIRST alum. It would seem obvious, however, that we need more female engineer/scientist guest speakers at events and more female engineer/scientist working with teams (in lead roles). I do believe there have been positive strides in this direction during my 10 years in FIRST, but it will certainly take a long while to move a culture away from the "male dominance" (both real and perceived) over time.

-Now, the discussion of "how" best to "grow" more females toward STEM (and still maintain one's soul, integrity, insert any other such parameter here) becomes the part of this discussion that was originally called for. In general, there is some educational value, supported by research, that "clustering" works. There are schools that have intentionally placed all females together in math and science classes and have seen interest and test scored rise as compared to a control group over time. However, the difference here is that every other student in that same school still has access to math and science. In some cases discussed here, an exclusively female FRC team COULD (notice I said "could") exclude certain populations of students from the opportunity based on gender. It's this scenario that makes me, personally most uncomfortable. Now an all-girls school FRC team with all girls? That's a no-brainer. However, I would have serious philosophical reservations about denying access to an FRC team SOLELY based on gender. In an effort to give more girls a chance (noble, indeed), you'd potentially be shutting out the next great male astronaut (ouch). Does a sponsor/donor still have the right to donate based on certain exclusionary desires? You bet. Do I have the right to choose whether or not I'd like to be associated with that? You bet.

Carry on..great discussion here ...

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

This is the key topic that should be discussed in this thread. Every team has their own reasons for running a team the way they do. Jane mentioned several dozen posts back that its not uncommon for college students to change their majors as they progress through their education. When referring to females in engineering/science I would hope they are choosing to do this based on a genuine change of heart and not because they feel they will not be able to succeed in a mainly male driven environment.

This got me thinking about all girls teams and how they may or may not deal with this feeling. Certainly an all girls team will give females a better chance to get more involved in the program. What they won't provide is the window into the way the world really is. Now, I'm not sure if at a high school age this is a good thing or a bad thing, and I certainly don't agree with the world being that way, but change will not happen overnight. This is something a female pursuing a STEM field will have to endure.

To me, it would seem a girl who spent 4 years on an all girls FRC team vs a girl who spent 4 years on a co-ed FRC team would come out with different experiences, this is for certain. However, if the environment is established by the team and mentors to allow girls to succeed in a co-ed environment than I would argue the girl on the co-ed team had the better experience (this is all very hypothetical of course). More than likely this girl would have experienced the hardships many of the female mentors and engineers have spoken about in this thread. When this girl gets to college or becomes an intern or even gets a real job, she may have already had to overcome some gender barriers in her career. Maybe this life experience that has been instilled in her will truly make her stick in STEM.

Just some food for thought..

-Brando

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I have mixed feelings about exclusivity. On the one hand, the prime directive of FIRST is to inspire kids. ALL kids, not just a select group. I personally welcome any kid, male, female, any race or nationality, from any school (or home school). I know of teams in the area that will not allow a kid to participate unless he is a student at that school. I even know of a team that requires a student to be a junior or senior to participate. I do not agree with these policies, or any similar policies, but the team leaders have the right to make the rules.

What I have the most issues with is the double standard. It is OK to make an all girls team, or an all African American team, but not OK to make and all boys team or an all Caucasian team. Not that I would agree with either of those policies either. I just don't like double standards.

In college, I remember meetings posted for SWE (Society of Women Engineers) and NSBE (National Society of Black Engineers). At the risk of igniting a firestorm, I would bet that if anyone tried to start the NSCCME (National Society of Conservative Caucasian Male Engineers, that the world would fall upon them and vilify the person responsible.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Equality is not a zero-sum game. Do you really think men are suffering on an institutional level (equivalent to how women currently suffer) just because of a few all-girls STEM programs? Given that the whole rest of the universe is already giving men/boys a much larger leg up culturally, I honestly don't see how a handful of girls-only FIRST teams could possibly do that much damage. The idea of these teams isn't to teach girls that boys are bad or inferior, but simply to give girls room to expand their horizons without feeling the pressures of being judged by their gender. Equality for women doesn't require the loss of equality for men.

In a perfect world, I would simply wave my magic wand and instantly make all parents raise their children without prejudice. How do you propose to magically remove the cultural advantages given to males without making any real concerted effort to level the playing field?

I agree with you that parents should raise their children equally, but how do we convince people that equal treatment is necessary? The only way to do that is by shattering the stereotypes and demonstrating to the world that women and girls CAN make great scientists and engineers, and that raising them differently on the basis of their gender is patently wrong. And how do we do that? By giving more women and girls a safe space in which they can pursue those dreams, where they are at least somewhat protected from the harsh judgements of a sexist society. Certainly co-ed teams are capable of providing that safe space, but not ALWAYS. And that is why all-girls teams can play an incredibly important role in transforming our culture.

Again, you must think we live in some kind of dream world where every instance of sexism and racism is dealt with swiftly and justly. I can tell you from personal experience in engineering that this is not the case. If it were possible to ensure that no sexism was ever allowed to occur on any FIRST team ever, then yeah -- obviously there wouldn't be any need for all girl-teams. But until that day -- when we have stamped-out all forms of sexism -- we need to keep trying to effect positive cultural change, and many of the all-girl teams have proven themselves quite effective at doing just that.

Nearly two decades ago, a man named Dean Kamen saw that there was a very troubling problem with our society. Our nation's young people were losing interest in the things that mattered, and instead were devoting their attention to mindless entertainment -- numbing themselves to the ways in which the world needed them. He could have just tried shouting at the top of his lungs -- "Stop raising your children this way! Make your children care!" But he knew that simply telling people wouldn't convince them. He needed to show them, adults and children alike... and that is why FIRST was born.

Likewise, we can't just tell people to stop being sexist (i.e. attacking only the "problem")... but we can show them why and how stereotypes fail by giving young women room to grow without judgement. The more visibly successful women there are in STEM, the more people's prejudices will begin to break down. In this way, I don't see how we could view the mitigation of the "symptom" as anything other than a success.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I am a software engineer... and have been for more years than many of the readers and posters here have been alive. :ahh: And I would like to say that I am in a quandry about the issue of all-girls teams.

Exactly! I would say that the best situation would be to have a co-ed team where everyone is equally respected and given equal opportunity in all aspects of the team, but I would be lying if I said that this can be expected to happen everywhere. I only wish this kind of activity had existed when I was in high school. I suspect that can be very empowering for girls to be on a team on their own where they are expected to step up and get it done rather than having to push their way in. But if they are heading into engineering they will need to deal with that at some point and need to be ready to stand on their own 2 feet.

To my knowledge, I am the first and only female engineering mentor that our team has had. [I have been with the team for 5 years of the 13 we have been around.] But it is just the luck of the draw... some teams have access to female engineers and some do not. We must acknowledge that we are in somewhat limited supply. And I must say that it can be difficult being the only woman in conversations among the team mentors, but that is life... I face that same challenge every day at work.

But I relish the opportunity to encourage the girls on our team to get involved in the engineering aspects of the team... and also to be there for them as a woman to talk to and to celebrate or commiserate with them when they need that. And I also relish the opportunity to let the boys on the team see that a woman can be an engineer and that she often has knowledge, experience, and insight to offer. I think what I am trying to say here is that I don't need to be considered a "FIRST Rock-Star" to feel that I am making a real impact on the lives of both the young men and women that I mentor on our team. I know what I have done... the impacts that I have made. I am proud of that. :D

[On a side note, several of our male mentors have indicated that they often prefer working with the girls on the team because they listen and take direction better. :) ]

Kim and Jaine - I agree with this wholeheartedly! Who are we to decide what works best for any team? However, as others have stated I would be sad to hear of an all-girls team that was created simply to exclude the boys (ie. not from an all-girls organization or not having another co-ed or all-boys team in the area).

Agreed! And... one thing that I see that truly upsets me is when an all-girls team receives an award and it is implied that the judges were impressed by what they did considering it was all girls. This is completely unacceptable either to give the award for that reason or to imply such when it is in fact not the case. If the girls are not held to the same standards as the boys, they are left feeling like they cannot measure up those standards - a ridiculous notion. And implying that the standard is different is as just as damaging. So I ask that people judge females in engineering not because they are girls but regardless of it.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

On the other hand, consider an all-girl team that happens not to do well for whatever reason.

Even with other teams all around doing just as poorly, and even with some of those other teams having no girls present at the competition, I heard the "wrong" sort of comments about the reason for the all-girl team's lack of success at the event. It was one of my least favorite moments of that weekend.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Does anyone know how many girls teams actually exist? And how many are not based out of girl-school or the Girl Scouts?

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

This comment is going to bring a rain of criticism down on my head so I've opened my umbrella in advance.

Here goes - I have had the privilege of meeting mentors on teams for several years as I've traveled to different events. I've also met mentors here in Chief Delphi and read their profile information. Almost every single time, the NEMs that I've met that are engineers, think of themselves as a team mom and a lot of times, that is how they market themselves - as moms.

I'm not interested in being a mom. I do that job, hopefully very well - at home. I'm interested in being a nontechnical mentor. Sometimes, for the students, there isn't a difference. Sometimes, for the parent or the mentor, there isn't a difference. The fact is - there is a difference and it is important to get that out there to the team and to the program. Whether you are in a technical role on the team or serving as a NEM, you are bringing your training and skillsets to the talent toolbox that helps build the team. Don't hide the training/education or the effort it took to obtain the skillsets. By presenting yourself as an engineer who works as a NEM on a team or as a engineering mentor, you are inspiring your students and students on other teams. We've already witnessed this type of inspiration in this thread.

I think moms are great. On FRC teams, I think mentors are greater. It is all in the perception and reality. I'm not interested in helping grow girls into being moms. That's not my role as an FRC mentor. I'm interested in helping grow girls into realizing their dreams through education and their careers.

I am also thinking way beyond NSCCME (National Society of Conservative Caucasian Male Engineers) and into other cultures. I'm thinking globally and towards the future. In some of those cultures, I can see some very powerful lessons and opportunities for girls on teams, including all girls teams. If you've read the post by the girls on 842, you'll understand how cultural expectations impact the thinking and behaviors of girls. I'm interested in changing the impact of those expectations and helping to forge new realities and expectations.

It can start with a mentor calling herself an engineer or mentor instead of a mom when participating in CD, in FIRST programs, and in talking with people about your role on a team. Very small shift but very significant.

Jane

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

As a potential sponsor of an All-Girls FLL team I think this statement is a generalization. I think there are plenty of sponsors who may make that decision for the right reasons. They realize they don't have the diversity they want in their recruiting, so they reach deeper, to a point where they can impact the pool of potential hires available. They wish to get more girls more hands on time, and get more girls into the STEM pipeline. I think this can be the case, and is in the case of the sponsorship that I offered.

However, I have seen the mar diversity can place on a corporation. I was a college recruiter for several years (for my engineering group), and we were told that if we recruited 40% minorities overall, we would get a bonus. To me, it was a very very dumb rule. I wasn't going to hire a female just because I would get a bonus. I was going to have to work with that female, and if she couldn't do the job as well as the male, I'm sorry, but I would rather hire the male. Now if I had two candidates that were exactly/nearly equal, I would hire the female, but any recruiter knows candidates NEVER come out exactly equal. I interviewed plenty of women who it was unfortunately painfully clear that others had "carried" them through their classes, or teachers perhaps had just given them passing grades.

See... I don't know... having gone through all of this myself, I am not convinced that there is ever a "right place" or "right time" to be exposed to the discriminations we do faces as female engineers. Here's what I tell a lot of people about being a girl going into engineering...

Is it EASY to be a Female in Engineering?
1. Yes. Its EASIER to get into college. Engineering colleges strive for diversity. I joke that I probably got "the female scholarship" even though none of my scholarships specifically said that.
2. No. It SUCKS being a female engineer in college. You face professors that don't think women should be engineers. You face boys that don't think you would make a good lab partner because you are a girl. You face a room of 64 men as the only female because you chose the electrical/computer engineering department. It SUCKS. Sure there are the girls that get all the starry eyed boys to do all the work for them, but that doesn't lead to a real education in my mind.
3. Yes. Getting a job out of college IS easier as a girl. I guarantee I got a few extra interviews BECAUSE the name on my resume was female. I wont deny that. I like to think the job offers I got, I got on my merits & accomplishments, but I wont pretend that my resume with a 3.3 GPA was any more impressive than some of my male friends with 3.5's that didnt get an interview. I had the most job offers of any of the Electrical/Computer engineers graduating from Clarkson my year... however, I attribute that to my THIRTY on campus interviews, not my gender. Sometimes girls just work harder :)
4. No. Being a female in engineering ISNT easy. My first internship, there was a guy who didnt want to work with me or give me the time of day because he didnt think female engineers were smart enough. I hit heads with plenty of old engineers that thought the same. I also encountered several female interns/engineers that were clearly "giving us a bad name" as they always let the guys do the work for them. Its frustrating to see these girls that have/had so much potential just give in to society and use their gender to more advantage than their brain. It aggravates me to no end.

I completely agree with this, and I think up until seeing the panel last year, I was on the same exact thought process. But these "FIRST Rock Stars" have kids asking for their autographs, they are sought out at competitions, they are the Idols that Dean & Woodie were hoping would come out of this program... yet not a single female among the ranks. Im far from caring if I or anyone I know is THAT female rock star, as as you state, I know the impact I have made. I've seen it in all that 229 & 1511 have accomplished, in their alumni who email me with their latest accomplishments or ask me for recommendations... yet I still want SOMEONE to be that female rock star, the one that we can all see up on those pedestals alongside all the males. Some teams are fortunate to have female mentors like that, but for those that don't, I want there to be a female Rock Star for all those girls to look up to. To know that they can succeed and wont be pushed out in college or once they enter their career. To know its possible.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

As a male mentor working with an all girls team for the past 5 years (the Robettes, I think we've been mentioned a few times in this thread already :) ), I wanted to share my perspective on this subject.

First, lets talk about the pits. I challenge everyone here to walk around the pits at their next regional a few times and count the numbers of males and females actually working on the robot. You'll find a huge gender bias, and the reasons for that have already been outlined in this thread: Boys have more experience growing up, and naturally tend to take over, pushing girls out of the way. It can be a real eye opener to see a pit that has all girls working on the robot.

Next, lets talk about the Robettes. Every year we have close to 25 students. We currently have 3 male mentors from Boston Scientific and two female teachers working with the team. While we've had female mentors from Boston Scientific with the team in the past, when the team was first formed the students made a conscious decision to encourage female mentors to work with other teams instead - that way, those females could provide direct inspiration in male-dominated teams.

Our team structure has evolved over the years, but one thing is certain - our students come with practically no experience, and leave being able to design and build a robot. When I say no experience, I mean none. Some of them have never even used a drill before. How do you compare a student, regardless of gender, with that level of experience with one who grew up building tool boxes and bird houses in Boy Scouts? With one that learned first hand some basic engineering principles in designing and building a PineWood Derby car? There really is no comparison. Those students coming in with experience quite simply will take over.

Finally, I wanted to share some stories the team has been collecting. These stories show exactly what sort of impact an all-girls team can have, not only on its members, but on the wider community.

This first one comes from a Second grader who saw our team compete last year.
This next one comes from one of the founding students of the team, and really highlights what this experience provides for the students.
This final one is from a current member's grandmother, and really helps to highlight the type of gender bias the team is working against.

If your at the North Star regional later this week, stop by our pits to read all of the stories we've collected so far!

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Alright, so, I can't keep my nose out of gender and engineering threads, so here goes.

Background: I attended an all-girls school for part of middle school and all of high school. That school had an all-girls FRC team that I was a part of (and captained one year), and our mentors were almost exclusively male engineering students from Ohio State. I then went to Olin College, which is about 50/50 male/female, and I'm now a systems engineer and project manager at an 80 person company where I am the only female engineer and the only female project manager.

I understand the frustration at girls-only teams that are sponsored, or supported, by environments that are co-ed. And I think having an all-girls team at the *expense* of giving boys the opportunity is wrong; everyone should get to do FIRST! But fundamentally, whether you're at a co-ed school or a single-sex school, the basic question is, why is an all-girls team a valuable option for a young women interested in FIRST?

True, most of us never got to work on cars with our dads, or had LEGO or Erector Sets as toys, or were encouraged to program, or anything like that. Some of us were even actively discouraged from doing those things, which puts us at a disadvantage against the people -- yes, often boys -- who maybe were more likely to have all that knowledge and experience from an early age. So yeah, that can be intimidating, to know you're walking into that situation.

But let me share some anecdotes from my experiences as a female engineer, and on an all-female FIRST team, surrounded by people -- men -- who are very supportive of me and my passion for robotics. Many of you male commenters are stating that you see "no difference" in how female students on your team are treated, and that many of them are "even better than the guys" at engineering tasks, and "no one makes negative comments." One of you even said "the real world has figured out how to make engineering co-ed, why can't we do it in FIRST?" I applaud each of you for being open-minded and supportive of your female peers, but I'm going to try to explain why things might not always be as they seem.

If you look in the FRC Regional Competition manual you'll notice there's a rule that no one may form a "human tunnel" during the awards ceremony. There's a story behind that. In 2002 my (all-girls) team attended the Midwest Regional at Northwestern. Not only did we make it to the quarterfinals as an alliance partner, my team also won the KPCB Entrpreneurship Award. When we were called up, a human tunnel had already been formed for the award winners to run through. My team ran through. And each of us got our rear ends squeezed, and some girls got touched up front as well. Well, you grope a group of 20 highly opinionated assertive teenage girls, we're going to complain -- and we did. We talked it over with the FIRST staff, committee, and other leadership onsite, who went to go talk to the teams. They agreed to talk with all the lead mentors about the incident and ask them to communicate to the teams that this was entirely unacceptable behavior. After talking with the mentors, several -- from co-ed teams -- went up to the staff member and said, "Oh, I'm glad you said something. A girl (or a couple of girls) on my team experienced the same thing, but I wasn't sure what to do about it."

So think about that. There were girls on co-ed teams, who I'm sure many people thought were great contributors and smart people and "no one treats them differently," but they were, let's face it, harassed at an engineering event and their team leadership, for whatever reason, were unwilling or unable to really deal with this treatment effectively. Had my team of angry girls and very supportive mentors not gone to the Powers that Be to complain loudly about this, no one ever would have known it had happened and these girls could have felt completely marginalized, feeling like their mentors -- the ones who are supposed to be helping them navigate the world of engineering -- weren't willing to stand up for them when they were treated inappropriately just because of being female.

I'm lucky now, even though my company doesn't have many other women, to at least be working with men who are open-minded, progressive, and many of whom are even married to female engineers, so my gender is very much a non-issue at work. And yes, if I felt I were treated inappropriately, with the right documentation, escalation to management, possible legal battles, etc, someone could be fired for treating me that way. However, that doesn't stop visitors to my company from hitting on me after a presentation I give, or telling me I should have a "dream job" like their wives where I can stay at home, or having customers asking obviously leading questions about my experience and background to determine whether they think I'm qualified to be in a leadership position I'm in (when I can clearly observe they're not asking these questions of my similarly aged male colleagues). These things all happen on a regular basis. And it sucks. The real world does not have the co-ed thing figured out by any means.

But thank god, thank god, I started my engineering career through FIRST, with a group of young women who supported each other and encouraged each other, with great male mentors who understood the challenge women face and who worked hard to give us the skills and experience we'd need to be competitive with anyone and everyone. Thank god I had the opportunity to realize, in a safe, supportive environment, how much I absolutely love the world of robotics and how important it is to me to make great things happen. Thank god I know I love it, because if all I knew was that I regularly got treated like crap because of being a woman, well, I'd be out of here pretty quick.

It is getting better. My mother was one of the first women allowed to be hired into a male-dominated environment (the Air National Guard) and she had it much worse than I did. My life is easy compared to what she went through. But it ain't over yet, and unfortunately, that means things like all-girls teams are still necessary if we want to help even out the playing field.

So. The moral of the story is, there is a reason all-girls teams exist. They are not for everyone. One poster mentioned that she thought she was better working with men for having had a co-ed team experience; for me, it's the opposite. I think I'm more assertive, more confident, and more daring in my primarily male office for having had the experience of building all that confidence in an environment that was more comfortable. Not every school can or should offer an all-girls team, but I think for those who can, if it is an option, it can be a very, very valuable one.

Also, just to throw my opinion on another pile: all of the above said, I still really, really hate it when the judges or game announcers make a point of saying that a team is an all-girls team.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Jane, I'm not here to rain on your parade. But I just want to offer up this perspective. I am an engineering mentor for my team first and foremost. However, as you see in my title here, I also very much consider myself a Team Mom which is another title I wear with pride. I feel that both aspects of my team role are applicable to who I am and how I portray myself on CD. And although I sometimes provide NEM support to my team, my primary role is that of the programming mentor and the other roles I play do not diminish that primary role or the skills that I learned to get there; they enhance my ability to interact and inspire ALL the students on my team.

I must emphasize that everyone on my team and those that I have interacted with in FIRST are well aware that I am an engineer, not "just a team Mom". But both of those roles are ones that I am proud of.

Well said! Wow, Kim... I hope I have a chance to meet you sometime. I think we would have a lot to talk about. I agree with you completely in both your lack of enthusiasm for "forced diversity" as well as your assessment of the ups and downs of being a female engineer in college and the workplace. Not sure if it is reassuring or disappointing to know that things have not changed too much in the last 20 years. :rolleyes:

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I have no idea either, my thoughts are just that, thoughts. Is there a "right time" to be exposed to discrimination? Absolutely not. However, as a female pursuing a STEM career, its tough to ignore that discrimination exists.

I'm a huge believer in live and let live. Our team is very unique in itself for our own reasons, but I hope other teams can just accept it as the way we do things and move on.

I don't think there is a right answer here, and I don't think anyone's made an argument that there is one. For some teams and individuals an all girls team may be the best option, for others it will not be. It's very important that we not paint with such a broad brush on these types of issues.

-Brando

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

I will give my opinion just because. I do not feel that creating a team of the same sex for the purpose of having the same sex is proper. It may happen that a team is all girls (boys) just because of the fact that the school is all of one sex, or because it just worked out that way. (Most likely to be an all boys team but it could happen with the girls.) Blocking (or discouraging) members from the opposite sex from joining a team should be prohibited or strongly frowned upon. My .02

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

this is what i was referring to when i stated that the formation of these teams implies a handicap


here is a problem where we see a group that has all the right to chose who they support and they obviously would want to support teams encouraging women to go into engineering. but wouldn't supporting teams that have women mentors be a better use of there money? not only would it give the girls on the team an example of a woman who has succeeded in that field but also discourage boys on the team from developing thoughts that women are incapable or less capable of succeeding in those fields

once again i would like to restate a question and instead of asking if all girl teams should not be allowed in FIRST what i really want to ask is <u>should the development of all exclusive teams be discouraged on FRC teams in FIRST?</u> because it encourages the thought that men and women are not equally capable. no one can say they have never felt differently about a team when they hear that it is all girl regardless of this feeling being positive or negative having the segregation will make you think differently and subconsciously question equality between the sexes not only in opportunity but also in capability. i also specifically stated FRC in this because i do see in importance to discourage the stereotype that are being installed into young children

if sexism to the point of discouragement for women to advance in education is still as prevalent in other arias and more of a problem than i have personally ever seen, where girls are not encourage to participate that maybe having teams strictly for girls is the way to go. but then this really doesn't do anything to change the prejudice that is there and only shelters the girls from that

Mikell Taylor's story is wonderful and give good reason to the development of all girl teams. I would like to thank her for her input

Kims Robot- i enjoyed what you wrote too but when you answer your own question of "Is it EASY to be a Female in Engineering?" you seem to start blaming women who " give in to society and use their gender to more advantage than their brain." and yet you state earlier in your same set of answers that you certainly did take advantage of this with job interviews where you knew your gender was the only thing that made you more desirable to the potential employer. i am not accusing you of anything and nor should anyone else nobody would give up any advantage they had on there competition. just as they found a way to get payed without doing as much work there is clearly a problem but no one is going to remove quotas for employment or enrollment in fear of being accused that they are against equal opportunity.

if there are any members or alumni of co-ed teams with an all girl team in the aria i would like to hear your views on this topic and how you think having that effects your team/the girls on your team(if there are any) and anything else you would like to say. your thought would be greatly appreciated//if you know anybody in this scenario could you please refer them to this thread?

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Athena's Warriors, team 3182 from CT is an all girls team not sponsored through a school for those who were wondering if we existed :D We also are all female mentored except for one mentor who is the husband of one of our female mentors. We were founded by the Women of Innovation group.

As the Co-Captain of our team, I can say that many or even most of the girls on our team would not have joined if it had been a co-ed team, myself included. Two years ago when I found out about the team, I really had no interest (or no idea of my interest) in robotics. I've always loved technology, but my knowledge was limited mostly to graphic design. Now, I am the co-captain of my team and robotics is really my life. I don't know what I would do without it truthfully. I spend most of my free time researching new ideas for our robot or reading chief delphi for hints. Let me say I was really intimidated when I first began reading as last year was our rookie year and all the technical terms on here made my head hurt. Now though, I have learned enough to keep up, one of the things I am most proud of :D

Robotics was never something I would have considered before, and now I want to be an engineer.

I could never say having an exclusively female team is wrong, because frankly my team has changed my life so drastically.


-Anna

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

The Firebirds (433) are one of the longest-running all-female FRC teams. We are based out of an all-girls high school, so therefore the only logical option would be to not have boys on the team. Our school stresses the importance of empowering women through single-sex education.

We comprise 55 student team members, and 80 percent of our alums have gone on to major in STEM (as opposed to only 5% national avg for women). Frankly, I think these statistics are AWESOME. Because we're an all-girls team, our students have to do everything, from building to programming to designing to PR to spirit. Each girl on the team finds an area where she feels she can excel, but we encourage every team member to work with power tools at least once in her career. Many end up finding a passion for drills and saws that they never knew they had, which is why we've been able to inspire so many alums to continue their engineering education. Also, no matter what field our team members end up in, they will surely succeed due largely in part to the confidence instilled in them by being on a FIRST team.

This past October, we hosted our first off-season competition, the girlPOWER Invitational. Ten teams attended POWER (Promoting Outstanding Women Engineers through Robotics), only 3 of them all-girls. The rest were coed teams, but only girls on the team were allowed to drive the robots and work in the pits. We decided to host this event after attending too many competitions where the girls were discouraged from working in these technical positions. We wanted to give the girls on every team the opportunity to benefit from everything a FIRST team has to offer, and hopefully give them the confidence to return to their own teams and try something new on the build team, or try out for the drive team. As long as the girls who want to build the robot are given a fair shot, we have accomplished something.

FIRST is such an amazing program, and no student should be limited in any way from participating, regardless of gender. Yes, it just so happens that girls on robotics teams are extremely outnumbered. But on our team we don't see this as a disadvantage, or anything that should be given a sympathy vote. In the words of one of our mentors and a team alum: “I like to think of us as a great team that just happens to be all-girls, not an all-girls team who just happens to be great. We are equals and can hold our own with the boys. And if along the way we just happen to change the
face of what a typical FIRST robotics student looks like, then we have accomplished something truly wonderful. This accomplishment hopefully can be replicated in all aspects of society, one Firebird at a time.”

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Speaking as a member of an all-girls team (Team 433), I'm obviously going to say they're a positive thing.
Guys tend to be more controlling than girls. If we had guys on our team I don't think I would ever get to do anything in the way of power tools or heavy lifting.
Because there is a lack of testosterone on our team, the girls get a chance to use the power tools and prove that we can carry the robot too.
Sometimes I even find it hard to wrestle work away from our male mentors (though I don't blame them, it's addictive).
Point being: being female is not a handicap, and having all-girl teams around allows us to enter more easily into a typically male dominated area.

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Ok, as a reply to Jaine:

"Do you really think men are suffering on an institutional level (equivalent to how women currently suffer) just because of a few all-girls STEM programs?"

My point isn't that we are suffering equally by it. My point is that your just adding more differences. Your widening the gap of equal treatment between men and women. Whether it is for one gender's benefit or the other, sexism is sexism. You can't both fight it while promoting it.

"How do you propose to magically remove the cultural advantages given to males without making any real concerted effort to level the playing field?"

I'm not saying that you shouldn't try to help girls out. I'm just suggesting that you might be better off having after-school activities that promote learning how to use power-tools to all kids from a younger age. If you want, make it mother-daughter nights and father-son nights. Do the same with cooking and other things guys generally avoid. This issue really should be dealt with at the youngest age possible before the child is completely set in their sexist ways.

"I agree with you that parents should raise their children equally, but how do we convince people that equal treatment is necessary? The only way to do that is by shattering the stereotypes and demonstrating to the world that women and girls CAN make great scientists and engineers, and that raising them differently on the basis of their gender is patently wrong."

I really don't see this as a means of convincing at all. I mean, I've seen alot of successful people of minorities and none of them have made those around them believe that equal treatment is necessary. The first woman in space was back in 1963. That is about as big a publicity stunt I can imagine. If that didn't work, what do you think would? In short, that is not "the only way". I'm not even sure if that way really works. It would seem a way would be to promote technology to all students starting in elementary and working its way into power tools.

"Again, you must think we live in some kind of dream world where every instance of sexism and racism is dealt with swiftly and justly. I can tell you from personal experience in engineering that this is not the case. If it were possible to ensure that no sexism was ever allowed to occur on any FIRST team ever, then yeah -- obviously there wouldn't be any need for all girl-teams. But until that day -- when we have stamped-out all forms of sexism -- we need to keep trying to effect positive cultural change, and many of the all-girl teams have proven themselves quite effective at doing just that."

On this one I think you missed my point completely. If you were to stamp out all sexism and racism in the world except for women only and minority only teams/scholarships/organizations/whatever, sexism and racism would still exist because these organizations exist. I'm also not suggesting that the world is perfect on this matter. Sometimes things go unnoticed, but if a worker is discriminating...eventually it will catch up with them. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but at some point there will be repercussions.

"Likewise, we can't just tell people to stop being sexist (i.e. attacking only the "problem")... but we can show them why and how stereotypes fail by giving young women room to grow without judgement. The more visibly successful women there are in STEM, the more people's prejudices will begin to break down. In this way, I don't see how we could view the mitigation of the "symptom" as anything other than a success."

This one I'm just going to admit I'm confused. How is showing successful women prove they are disadvantaged? I found the story by Mikell Taylor's story was a much stronger statement of why it is wrong than all the personal statements of success this thread has had combined. Women who are successful are poor examples of the sexism because of their success. Instances of women who could do amazing things but were discouraged would be much more compelling.

Note to all: Though this is a direct response to Jaine and her comments, I welcome thoughts from all and thanks for the interesting topic.

Jason

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

"FIRST is here to inspire you, to challenge you. Part of that process is giving you a task too hard, resources too little, people too many, time too short." - ebarker

That really stood out to me in the spotlighted posts. Now, I see an all female team as a direct challenge against stereotypes. Now, personally, the way I see it is that all teams are essentially that: a challenge against the stereotypes and the socially acceptable norm. Every team is essentially a business; society still holds the belief that teens are not mature enough to run such a business successfully. Now, I see teams everywhere that directly refutes that belief. I think an all female team should be embraced, not shunned. I personally find an all female team inspiring, especially when they kick my butt.

"You got a dream, you gotta protect it. People can't do something themselves, they wanna tell you that you can't do it. You want something? Go get it. Period." -Christopher Gardner

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_yW3152Ffc

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?
 

Being female is not a handicap, The STEM Field has been predominantly men since the BC times. There has been a sub-conscience belief in society that the man has an advantage in these fields. (Archimedes, Galileo,Newton, Einstein are just example of how long men have dominated in STEM) It is extremely difficult to change society and to fully accept females into STEM within only 50 years.

Even though Many teams in FIRST have females on there teams, not all are engaged with the robots, There ARE females in leadership positions and major roles, but as an overall males are still dominant.

All female teams are just a bridges that facilitates a females entry into the world of STEM. This is just a stepping stone for some. One our team we have an All Girls Underwater Robotics Team named LEGIT (Leading and Empowering Girls Into Technology). Some females may feel insecure directly going into the main team that has some male leaders. (our FIRST team has a majority of females). Having the all girls teams has allowed us to recruit more females and has enabled them to work side by side with the more experienced members of our team.