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And we'll definitely see you at the Championship! |
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Speaking of.. anyone need a ride? We have a couple spaces left on our bus for stowaways! :) |
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Here is the broadcast schedule of the Michigan State Championship for around the state of Michigan:
SATURDAY, APRIL 16, 1:00-2:00 P.M. Detroit / SE Michigan WXYZ-ABC 7 West Michigan (Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, Battle Creek) WOTV-ABC 4 Traverse City / Cadillac WGTU-ABC 29 & 8 SUNDAY, APRIL 17, 11:00 A.M. - 12:00 P.M. Tri-Cities (Flint, Saginaw, Bay City) WJRT-ABC 12 SATURDAY, APRIL 23, 1:00-2:00 P.M. Marquette / Calumet WBKP- ABC 10 Spread the word! |
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I am wondering if the organizers and sponsors of this program are planning on putting the FIRST Robotics Competition Michigan State Championship on local television in future years or is this just a test to see how well it works?
Think I am going to have time tomorrow to watch the program and see how good it looks. |
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The producer, who we ran into at the Traverse City district, said this is definitely a test. He saw states last year (I think while covering the story for WXYZ, ABC Detroit) and fell in love with the idea of trying to put it on TV. He then pitched it to the network and GM as if it was a sporting event with brains to get them to buy in.
So, he said, if we would like to see FIRST on TV again next year, we need to be sure it has the ratings. So, get everyone you know to record it or watch it, so it gets the ratings it needs to be on again next year! Or better yet, gather a group for lunch at your favorite sports bar and watch it on their big screen. That's what we are doing. Think of all of the extra people you will be exposing robotics to at the restaurant. It was recorded and will be aired in HD, so the quality should be great! For those of you out of the Michigan viewing area, why not go to wzyz.com and ask them if they are going to make it available on the internet afterwards or if they will be streaming. The real questions then will be... what tab would be listed under, 'Entertainment' or 'Sports'. |
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Is there any place online I can watch the show? I'm currently not in Michigan and am going to miss it.
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I checked television program listing for WOTV and it appears that the program called the "Michigan First Robotics Championship" is color-coded as a sport.
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Did anyone record the showing? If someone did, could they post a link on CD for people to watch? I don't live in Michigan, and I checked the wxyz site but they didn't live stream it. The idea sounded amazing, and I really wanna see how the footage from atop the towers turned out XD
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I recorded the ABC broadcast in Standard Def on my computer and cut out the commercials. The end credits says the copyright belongs to FIRST in Michigan, so if I get an ok from them, I think that allows me to post it online. Anybody know if this is an accurate assumption?
I know I would have to wait until all of the ABC affiliates air the program, so as not to detract from the ratings before I could do anything with it though. |
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How was it? I'm in Europe and missed it (hopefully my DVR got it)...
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A couple of points I would like to see for next year. 1. Instant replays of deciding quarterfinal factors so that all 24 teams get a quick shout out. This would eat up about 6-8 minutes, but I think it would be nice to "set" the stage. 2. Live scoring total. They didn't have the live score posted, so it was difficult to tell what the score was until the end of the match. I know two minutes isn't that long to wait, but a live tally really helps. Otherwise, the action seemed fast paced and very captured very well. I am excited to watch it again. Oh, I was just reminded. A special thanks to Paul Copioli. He did an excellent job on the play by play. I wish you guys could have heard his quarterfinal analysis as we were practicing the instant replays. There was a higher variety of key moments in the quarters than just minibots and ubertubes. Anyone who watched/listened to Waterloo knew that PC was the right person for the job. |
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I was fun seeing the minibot races from the tower tops. Quote:
To introduce the game they used footage from the game pieced together that ended up being a lot more entertaining than the FIRST animation. My only criticism -- I wish a better job had been done introducing and explaining FIRST at the beginning of the show. There were several nicely-done profiles throughout the show, one of how Team 51 and Pontiac High School took shape from Teams 65 and 47 and Pontiac Northern and Pontiac Central ... another of rookie Team 3688 which made a good plug at how to go about starting a new team ... one of Wayne and Jay TenBrink ... and another of Gina and Russ Sweet. Before seeing the show, and having been at most of MSC, I confess I was apprehensive about how things would come across on-screen. However, all of the game announcing on the show was by Paul Copioli doing a first-rate job (intentional pun) with his play-by-play and explanation of the game and strategy. I haven't heard a FIRST play-by-play as well done as this one. I learned a lot. I have advice for you coaches who want to learn how to do a better job -- find a recording of this show and listen to Paul. |
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Seriously, in my opinion, it was really great. It went by so fast though. Filming the semis and finals took agonizingly long, yet the actual robot action was chopped down to about 25-30 minutes (due to commercials, short awards ceremony, and some interviewing). I enjoyed the background information that they recorded of some of the HOT and Martian mentors. Next year it would be nice to see some background information on some of the students. Also, one hour just didn't feel long enough. Though I'd like to hear from someone who had never seen a FIRST event and tuned in to the show. I wonder if the one hour was just enough time for someone like that. |
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I thought it was a great show. They edited the order of the matches, so that all the games of one semi-final were shown before the other semi-final, which was good for the general audience.
Some good human interest stories too - rookies from Suttons Bay, Gina and Russ Sweet, the 47+65=51 merger. Maybe next year one of those stories can focus on Chairmans and other not-directly-related-to-the-robot activities. While the importance of Ubertubes was stressed, I don't think the autonomous aspect was emphasized enough. I'd also have liked to see more on the design/build process (although that was touched on in the Suttons Bay story). The high-def video was great - no comparison to the YouTube and other videos we usually see. The commentators did a good job with it. Heather did some good sideline interviews, and the other announcer (can't remember his name) made some insightful comments and questions for only having seen the game for such a short time. And of course Paul is Paul - if anyone still doubts the rationale for having a good strategist behind the glass, just listen to his commentary. I never dreamed that the coaches were thinking all those things that he came up with. And he didn't even get on the referees, well, not too much ... I think it was a great showcase of the competition. If it gets done again, there will be time for a little more depth so that viewers can get the idea of what kind of full-season commitment the students and mentors make. |
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The commentators did a good job with it. Heather did some good sideline interviews, and the other announcer (can't remember his name) made some insightful comments and questions for only having seen the game for such a short time. [quote] The anouncer's name was Jimmy, and he really did his research. Not only did he go through kick-off, but he had watched a whole bunch of matches on Youtube, and read a lot on Chief-Delphi (you never know who will be looking in) beforehand. I sat in on the pre-production meeting and was impressed with the quality of the thoughts and question he was asking. He did a great job documenting the "unkowns" he had as an "outsider", and then asking Paul those questions to get an insider's perspective. It was also neat to hear the crew getting excited during the filming. After watching a day or so, they had picked their favorites and were making predictions. |
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*I'd have liked them to show the apprehension and excitement of the crowd as the scores were actually announced (especially the finals) instead of just throwing them on the screen for the viewer. |
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They've been running FLR on live tv the last few years all day long. They even had Paul Copioli doing color commentary last year. It wasn't on ABC. They ran it live on public access over two days (no way the bog networks would agree to run a full FIRST event from start to finish). They do a great job. I wish they would do this at every event. FIRST rates that kind of treatment.
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I really enjoyed the broadcast. It did a great job simplifying the game to any outside viewers.
I also enjoyed the part where they did an insight on a couple of teams, especially 51. The best part about the bit on 51 was that I didn't even know about it ( I blame college ), so I was extremely excited to see my team get highlighted. They did an exceptional job on providing insight on the background of the team, and the adversities they faced from the merger of two rivaling schools. As for the automated scoring, it did look like they tried to fit that in because they had spaces above for the red and blue alliances. I'm guessing they ran out of time before they can put in real time scoring. The ABC crew and Copioli overall did a fantastic job on covering the event, and I do hope they will be back to do the same next year :) |
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I'd really like to see how Michigan's ABC affiliates put together their broadcast. In Virginia, our ABC (EDIT: CBS) affiliate in Richmond televises Scholastic Bowl/Battle of the Brains. How can you not pitch a more "live-fire" scholastic competition on a relatively quiet weekend in broadcasting. It would also fill up a chunk of E/I programming if it can be counted as such.
EDIT: Well, CBS isn't exactly low on things to broadcast in March and April... maybe we could pitch it to the PBS affiliates in Charlottesville and Metro Richmond. My grandparents get the idea behind the competition, but they are too old to really brave the rush downtown and come see it. I'm sure other kids can look at it that way. Not to mention the outreach VAFIRST could generate from the broadcast. I'm really hung up on this idea... |
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Next let's see them do this with the finals on Einstein...of course getting a national/world tv market is a little more difficult than one state/region. It would be cool to see it on ESPN2 or something like that.
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My DVR puked on me so someone please post up the broadcast so we can watch it / save it. Someone contact Gail Alpert to get the approval from FIRST in Michigan to post it up. I'm quite sure that this is something that would like to be shown in as many venues as possible - Remember it was a homework assignment!!
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I thought that they did a great job, kept it engaging and entertaining for the audience at home. Paul was an excellent color commentator and I too agree you could see how his understanding of the game and strategies really made it easy for the viewer at home to know what is going on.
The only area that was confusing was with the other cameras. I watched it on a big screen, and they had the 6 other camera views on the side. It was tough to see the action on my big screen, so I can only imagine on smaller tv's. I think if they would have cut to some of those shots during the match, it would have made the action more intense. I found myself focusing mainly on the main camera. I know that ESPN does things like this online where you can select different angles to view during game. Something like that could make use of the angles and integrate them more in to the action. Editing was great, transitions were great, and the side stories were even greater. The sideline reporting was amazing in that it showed the emotion as events were developing and you could see the excitement in the students faces. I too thought playing the matches in a row really helped keep the audiences attention. Only piece of advice here is that there needed to be a scoreboard of some sort on TV. Paul did a great job of keeping up to date on the score, but that is a must in any sporting event. |
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http://www.youtube.com/user/FIRSTinMichigan I believe Team 2337 took all those match videos and Clinton maintains that channel. I would like to have the ABC broadcast uploaded into that channel. I will have all the videos linked from the FiM website. |
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We're also in the process of moving HD (1080p) to youtube, and are getting to Troy currently (thanks to Jared; it was originally his pet project and he continues to run the program). See http://www.youtube.com/user/jfmiles94 |
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Regardless, hopefully you all can find something worth watching on the channel! |
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If someone would like to send me a copy of the broadcast, I will be sure to post it on the www.youtube.com/FIRSTinMichigan channel.
-Clinton- |
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I recorded it in HD. I can see if I can post it on the YouTube channel. I'm not sure if there's a limit to how long a video can be. I'd be surprised if you can post an hour-long video. I might need to do it in pieces.
I'll see what I can do and post back here when I have something to report. Take care, John P.S. I agree. It was great! My only suggestion would have been to show the "real-time" score as the matches progressed. Looking at a wall of tubes just isn't the same - especially for new viewers. All other sports do it, and with how fast the score changes, it's pretty helpful. |
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Well, I'm uploading it now. It's a 6gb file (hey,it's HD!). I installed the YouTube Advanced Video File Upload option, sowe'll see... I wouldn't be surprised if YouTube kills it because it was recorded off the air and they usually call that a copyright infringement. It does contain all the ads and everything so that might help, but I doubt it.
I'm uploading it right now at about 500kb per second. With 6gb to go, that works out to about 30 hours! |
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They will only kill a video when requested by the owner of the copyright. You have permission to do it anyway, so there shouldn't be a big deal at all.
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I decided to transcode it to DivX in an AVI wrapper. That got it down to 1.6gb. Should be done in 470 minutes. We'll see!
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Did this get posted?? Whats the title? Thanks.
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Okay, it's up!
Go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq1Lq_n3Tfc Let me know if it works for you all. Take care, John |
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Very nice John. It worked perfectly for me. And thanks a million. I'm in Texas and didn't get to see it before I left.
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I really appreciate this! I've already watched parts of the youtube video. The quality is excellent. Your time and efforts are greatly appreciated, sir!
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Thanks a ton John! Those of us outside Michigan really appreciate it.
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Thanks John for taking the time to do this for the rest of us, it is greatly appreciated
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Thanks John for taking the time to convert and upload... thank you for sharing and letting us non-FiM folks enjoy the program. |
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This show just makes the Michigan District Format that much better: for less money, you get two events, a state championship, and a professional-quality television broadcast.
For a regional, you pay more, and just get ten matches + elims. I am so jealous :) |
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I also liked how they explained the game at the beggining. Short, sweet, to the point.
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-Clinton- |
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By moving here and continuing my own commitment (in each of those parts), I have learned that the FIRST sponsors, volunteers, and teams in Michigan work to a very high standard of excellence. The FIM system is far from perfect -- but as Karthik likes to say (quoting Vince Lombardi), it is by relentless chasing perfection that we catch excellence. |
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That broadcast should set the standard for any FIRST event on TV. I wish they could do one of these for every regional...exact same format. Fantastic stuff.
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Anyone see any international teams at MSC this year? Chilean Heart, maybe? How about out-of-state? Anyone? |
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But this system really has helped me make more friends inside of the state of michigan.. I've gotten to know the refs and many of the people behind the scenes that make michigan what it is... Plus you get to see your instate friends a lot building on those friends.. I'd say without this district model, I wouldn't be as close to members of 67,503,308 and others.. Plus getting to see people like Paul from 217, or Jim from 33 and many others... And think of it this way, we have people watching us! Andy Baker and Karthik and Dan Green, travel hunderds of miles to see this event... There is no shortage of outside travelers.. You just have to look sometimes..
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As an original detractor to the Michigan system, I feel like I've become a massive supporter of the program in the least two years. The system fosters positive growth unlike any other program.
You market the program as a two for the price of one FIRST competition. Teams get their KOP and two events for the same price a rookie pays for one regional. With the closed system, the compulsory registration in FiM events makes Michigan teams stay in Michigan, not taking sponsor's money out of the state. GM isn't as much of a sponsor in, say, eastern Virginia than they are in Michigan. The delineations of the districts helps FiM send mentors with years of experience around to float among veteran and rookie teams, to create intrastate collaboration. The state competition pits the best teams against the best teams, providing competition that is apparently worthy of statewide network television. Sure, teams from as close as Northern Illinois or as far away as South America can't participate in FiM, but if other states and regions wised up into the district model, maybe teams could participate in interstate district competitions. The only complaint of FiM is its walled garden approach to FIRST. Funny thing is, that's a big complaint a lot of people can make about Apple. Sure, it sucks that there is no interstate competition. However, approach the idea of FiM the way a team approaches a design for the robot: pros v. cons. It's hard to convince me that expensive events that don't foster the kind of growth FiM does are better simply because they allow non-local teams to enter. |
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Also, imagine this conversation. It's not hard to envision... A:"Where's your team from?" B:"Alpena." A:"Oh...my family goes hunting there every fall...meh." Now imagine this conversation... A:"Where's your team from?" B:"Sao Paulo." A:"WOW! I've never been there before! Is there rainforest near where you live? How about....(insert local trivia here)" Until FiM, this was possible, and if you replace "Sao Paulo" with "Canada" it happened A LOT! P.S.:It was after midnight (local time) when I posted this. PayneTrain, feel free to vivisect this post to your heart's content. I'd like to see the results. |
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Questions for you Jeremy Marr,
Were you at the State Championship? The level of competition is something that you can not duplicate anywhere else in the country during the 6 week regional period! It's a great way to get exposure to FIRST without presenting a boring set of matches where the only 1/3 of the robots are functioning well and the number 1 and 2 seeds always play for the win. Looking back at past events like Great Lakes, Detroit and West Michigan, yes we saw out of state/country teams, but only about 5% of those 3 events had teams not from michigan. So really we gave those spots to michigan teams so they could play closer to home. Yes there are downfalls to the system. But there are solutions. Before the district model, most teams spent 10k to do 2 events and most teams did 2 out of the 3 michigan events or did GLR and something else, (unless west coast or UP michigan team). But those teams whom went out of state met other teams and were able to build those relationships. Or when going to Championships they were able to do the same thing. But with the district model you can play your two events for 5k and still go out of state! Many teams choose to do this! 1528 and 217 went to Finger lakes, 245 went to Alamo, i think it was 288 and its two sister teams went to Waterloo and another out of state competition. Also there are numerous off season events to attend to also get this feeling of meeting new teams. IRI or MARC or Kettering, which all get out of state attention. Don't limit yourself to the regular season! Yes, travel for some teams is painful for the UP teams and some other northern michigan teams, but solutions are in the works. The west side of the state now has two districts (Niles and Grandvalley) and there are talks about a district event in the UP. Which by all means would almost kill any discussion about border teams(other than states, which teams from the UP have come down to do, for them its a chance to met people really from another state). It just takes time to get it right and in 3 years it has come a long way and will continue to get better. Also like I stated in previous post the district system helps build relationships with local teams and help promote cooperation within the state to bring up the level of every team as a whole. I can't tell you how many new teams were started in the last few years because of this district model and how well veteran teams have been the first to help get them going. Under the old system you couldn't do this as well because a one and done deal hurt retention percentages. Rookies came into big events usually not having a complete robot and didn't get a chance to do anything. But with this district model the help you would recieve during a normal district event can be translated into your 2nd event. I know my team comes into our first event with a lot of questions and sometimes it takes all our first event to iron them out and to learn from them. A rookie team under the old system usually had one shot to figure that out and was done for the year. Why do you think we've seen such a dramatic increase in teams the last 2 seasons. This systems negatives are highly outweighed by the positives. Michigan did the right thing in moving to this model and being someone whom was here for 3 years of the old way and 3 years of the new way and much rather keep things district style, and i bet you there are numerous teams whom agree with this. I can live without meeting new people, but thats not true, new people and teams are exposed each year, so I really am always meeting new people. Dean wants FIRST to be a varisty sport in every highschool across the country and into many other countries and so far the best way we've seen this happen is to break a state into districts (like all highschool sports!), and show people you can play this game in a highschool gym! FiM is doing it right. A note on my like all highschool sports comment, in highschool did your football team always play out of state or around your school? I know mine played around the district. But I know if they wanted to they could schudule a out of state matchup if they wanted to. So really FiM is turning robotics into a highschool varisty sport! Jeremy if you want to continue this type of discussion off the boards feel free to PM me. /rant |
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Go to championships once every four years. Go to an offseason event. The border police won't stop you there. I think it would be sensible for FiM to allow teams within 30 miles of a district event but not in Michigan to be put on a waiting list for a district competition. Quote:
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The district model can be adjusted for low team density states to have their own district, go to a regional championship, and be able to take that experience back home, and replicate in 5 years to wall off the state for intrastate competition. If you feel like there is a lot of value to be had in Michigan returning to the regional model, feel free to PM me. I don't want this thread to get too heated like some threads have lately. :D |
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That's where I grew up, and they could really benefit from a team. |
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I know it's been said, but I'll reiterate...MI teams can go to other regionals outside of MI where they might meet teams from anywhere - there are a lot of relatively close ones (Midwest, Boilermaker, Buckeye, Finger Lakes, Waterloo, Toronto, etc.). I do miss having other teams come to events in MI, but I believe the positives of FiM outweigh the negatives as was mentioned earlier.
I think the biggest thing you can take from the FiM model is that a district event can be run for MUCH less money - you don't necessarily need high team density; however, you do need a team of dedicated volunteers. It's going to be very difficult to continue to grow FIRST if something isn't done to make it more affordable. I believe one of the few reasons that MI has been able to grow to the number of teams it has is due to the affordability of the FiM model. |
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I know money is tight in these hard times and overnight travel is difficult for some teams. That is why there are multiple districts around the Detroit area for the majority of those teams to get there two events without spending money much needed for other items. This does not mean that you have to go to those events though. I think the overnight experience is worth the cost for all the hard work my students put into the program throughout the year. The students enjoy the fact that we go someplace overnight and have a great time while we are out of town. If you carefully manage your travelling cost, then your team can do overnights in Michigan. Niles had like 6 empty slots. For 2 nights and 9 rooms (not the greatest of rooms but what do you actually do there) my team paid roughly $1000 total for rooms and gas. We met some very nice teams from the westcoast and we plan on going back next year. If your team is interested in attending this event have your mentors contact me. I most likely can help with these things. |
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As posters have said before, it's important to remember to compare the pros with the cons. There are over 170 FIRST Robotics Teams in the state of Michigan alone, plenty for students to meet all sorts of great people and teams that they never knew before. The District System also dramatically lowers the price of competing in FRC, and this price point is much more conducive to rookie startups than is the regional expense.
Plus, the opportunity to meet teams from all over the place is a perk of going to the Championship event, then, right? If your team travels to CMP, based either on qualification or on registration, it becomes a big event, especially if your team doesn't go every year. I know that, for me, going to CMP for the first time was extremely exciting, because I actually had the opportunity to meet teams from elsewhere. Also, I ask if moving away from the district system really would, in fact, dramatically increase the number of teams from out of state that any given Michigan team would be in contact with. The Michigan regionals would still be overwhelmingly composed of Michigan teams, because all of the other "local" regionals would continue to exist. Sure, there would be some flow out of the Michigan regionals into other local regionals, and sure some teams from local regionals would choose to compete in Michigan, but I doubt it would be dramatic. All-in-all, having never experienced anything other than the District system, I suppose I'm probably biased, though I can't imagine the system being any other way. Plus, the competition at Michigan District Competitions is world class, and the district system, in this way, acts as a catalyst for the formation of dozens of brilliant new rookie teams, many of whom compete on par with veteran teams. You don't often see that to the same extent elsewhere. |
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Another great thing about the MI system is the fact that each district event is limited to 40 teams. This gives a greater percentage of the participants a chance to play on Saturday afternoon - and they get two chances at eliminations for the price of one.
2008 (the last year before MI districts) was our low point. Our entire season consisted of 8 matches, and our manipulator was broken for 4 of them. In 2009 we played in about 45 matches at 3 districts for less money. And we got to meet a lot more people than we did in 2008, too. |
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Wow...wasn't expecting responses like these. I honestly thought I would just get flamed. I shall attempt to respond to your arguments later (when my brainpower regenerates), if no one has any objections?
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No, your argument does have merit to an extent; however, I think overwhelming sentiment does not echo yours. As the District system gets older and more experienced, I think even more of those who still doubt it will warm up to the idea. |
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Simply put: FiM was an experiment, to see if there was a better way to run the competitions than the old regional standard that had been in place for over fifteen years. Everyone involved in the regionals knew the system had its flaws, and took steps to recognize that fact by creating a different setup with different rules and regulations. HOWEVER, they also knew this new system would have unforeseen flaws (and detractors). With that in mind, they chose to limit their new district model to one local region, choosing Michigan likely due to the power and insanity coming out of the old Great Lakes Regional, as well as the base strength of Michigan teams in general. It's still fairly new. It is definitely different than what we've been used to. I may come across as a crotchety old coot sometimes, but I ask you to keep this fact in mind: My final year as a student with my team was 2007, before FiM hit the streets. I therefore do not have a first hand account of all of the ramifications that FiM has brought with it. I admit the regional system has its flaws. I also admit that the new district system has ITS flaws. I simply feel that the district system is not a BETTER direction for FIRST competition, merely a DIFFERENT one. That said, one thing I WOULD suggest, before spreading the district model all over the country: keep it local. Spread it to neighboring states (Ohio, Illinois, Wisconsin, maybe even nearby provinces in Canada), and try out new rules on interstate competitions. The main reason that you don't see many MI teams in regionals outside MI is even if they can afford to go, what's the point? They do not add points for qualifying for Championships in...wherever they decide to hold them from here on out. So they don't bother. If they could spread the district system around a little bit at a time, they could find ways to rewrite the scoring rules to make traveling out of the state for a competition mean something again. (Please note that I do not count Championships here, as this statement does not apply to the endgame. Especially since for Michigan teams, that's the only out of state comp. that they're allowed to actually compete in. Sure, some teams went to Finger Lakes, but the way the scoring system works here, all they would be are placeholders keeping other teams out who may have NEEDED those points to qualify for Championships.) |
Re: Michigan State Championship
I have only two points to make, neither are about your argument because I think my beliefs have been well-covered.
1. MI teams may or may not be allowed to compete at the CMP based on results of an out-of-state event. The fact is, it's never been tested. Any team that has ever qualified out of state either pre-registered (141 this year, EI in MN) or qualified in-state as well (217 pre-regged and would have qualified by points anyway). There may be a rule, but I don't know what it is and it's never been used. 2. This is simply not the right place for this discussion. Please start a new thread. P.S. Okay, I just had to add.. The best part about the district model is arguably the cheap events. District competitions are extremely cheap to put on (as low as $10k). Doing events like these means you could have so many more regionals, which in turns makes going to a regional cheaper (HQ gets more registration fees paid, so they need few $ per fee). Maybe I'm just obsessed with the idea, but it would bring the best of MI (more events, less $) without bringing most of the issues people dislike. |
Re: Michigan State Championship
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2. Agreed. Can we get a mod to move or copy the related posts to a new thread, please? This is too good a topic and discussion to simply let it slip through the cracks. |
Re: Michigan State Championship
In general defense at this late/early hour, it was abroadly-titled thread created to answer a question a member had. The thread probably should have been moved to the FiM subforum from the start. In the offseason it would be wise to have a massive discussion on FiM's model phasing in. Right now its hard to get a solid, star studded discussion going on. The Karthiks an Andys of the world are focused on CMP right now.
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