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-   -   Michigan State Championship (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94086)

arbasnaw 27-03-2011 22:02
Michigan State Championship
 
I'm from a rookie team 3638 and i was wondering how many teams go to the state championship.

M.Wong 27-03-2011 22:11
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
If it helps at all, the number of teams in attendance last year was 65.

MagiChau 27-03-2011 22:11
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arbasnaw (Post 1046115)
I'm from a rookie team 3638 and i was wondering how many teams go to the state championship.
Top 55 teams according to a ranking found here http://firstinmichigan.org/FRC_2011/2011_Results.xls and the 9 district chairman award winners

nikeairmancurry 27-03-2011 22:23
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basel A (Post 1046136)
Well, it's Winners of each District event, Chairman's Award Winners from each event, and from there it's just down the State Ranking List until there's 65 teams attending.
Techincally according to the state ranking, the event winners do not have an auto bid...

Ed Law 27-03-2011 22:24
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basel A (Post 1046136)
Well, it's Winners of each District event, Chairman's Award Winners from each event, and from there it's just down the State Ranking List until there's 65 teams attending.
Winners of each District event do not automatically qualify for States, but in most cases, the amount of points they earn by winning will almost guarantee they have enough points to make the cut. Only district Chairman's award winners automatically qualify for States.
Please refer to the Michigan Rules Supplement for details.
http://www.firstinmichigan.us/FRC_20...Supplement.pdf
Sorry this file is so hidden. It is underneath the table of all the competition events. I will find a better place for it next year.

arbasnaw 27-03-2011 22:58
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Thanks those really helped.

SPatel94 03-04-2011 12:37
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Regarding MI State Championships, the MI rules supplement said that the final state rankings will be posted no later than 9 AM the Sunday following the week 5 events. Have the rankings been updated yet and posted on the FIRST in Michigan site? It is already Sunday and past 9 AM, so I was wondering if there was some other reason causing the delay. If anyone has any more information on this, it would be helpful.:)

Richard Wallace 03-04-2011 12:47
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Here. 818 is in.:)

SPatel94 03-04-2011 12:49
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Thank You!!!

Chris is me 03-04-2011 12:51
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Wow, no auto qualify for Rookie All Star, or event winner?

JosephC 03-04-2011 13:02
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
68 Is in :)

Unless I'm mistaken don't the engineering inspiration award winners get in automatically also?

David Dawson 03-04-2011 13:11
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1048695)
Wow, no auto qualify for Rookie All Star, or event winner?
Not this year only chairmans get a auto bye for the championship. district winners don't even get a auto go.

Huskie65 03-04-2011 13:15
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1048695)
Wow, no auto qualify for Rookie All Star, or event winner?
Rookie All Star isn't even worth any points towards States. Bit strange really.

Chris Hibner 03-04-2011 13:22
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard (Post 1048693)
Here. 818 is in.:)
For some reason when I go to that link and download the spreadsheet, it's still not updated for this weekend's events.

rmhooks573 03-04-2011 13:23
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hibner (Post 1048713)
For some reason when I go to that link and download the spreadsheet, it's still not updated for this weekend's events.
it's updated.

Richard Wallace 03-04-2011 13:25
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hibner (Post 1048713)
For some reason when I go to that link and download the spreadsheet, it's still not updated for this weekend's events.
Try clearing your downloads folder. The link shows me updated rankings as of this morning.
Code:
Team #        Auto Qualify for State based on Award                                                                       
Team #        Registered for St. Louis                                                                       
Team #        Qualify for State                                                                       
                                                                               
Overall Ranking Point Results                                                                               
cummulative through 4/2/2011                                                                               
Rank        Team #        Points        Elimination Round Performance Points        Best Elimination Round Finish        Draft Points        Highest Draft/Seed Achieved        Qualification Round Win-Loss Points        Events Played        Auto Qualify for State        Registered for St. Louis
1        1918        155        60        30        31        16        44        2               
2        2137        135        60        30        32        16        38        2               
3        2054        135        50        30        31        16        44        2               
4        217        130        40        30        31        16        42        2                Y
5        469        127        50        30        31        16        36        2                Y
6        1023        124        40        30        30        16        42        2        Y        Y
7        33        116        40        30        31        16        40        2        Y        Y
8        3539        114        50        30        26        14        36        2               
9        201        113        40        30        30        16        36        2               
10        51        113        40        30        27        16        36        2                Y
11        494        111        50        30        26        16        33        2               
12        245        109        30        20        28        15        40        2               
13        548        105        50        30        27        15        26        2        Y       
14        2337        104        40        30        28        16        36        3        Y       
15        27        97        30        30        29        15        31        2               
16        3098        97        30        20        31        16        36        2               
17        2767        96        30        20        28        15        38        3               
18        1718        96        30        20        27        14        34        2        Y       
19        573        95        20        10        30        16        36        2                Y
20        302        92        20        10        27        14        35        2                Y
21        2612        86        20        20        24        15        32        3               
22        2145        81        20        20        26        15        30        2               
23        67        81        20        20        25        16        31        2                Y
24        1528        80        20        20        23        15        30        2               
25        3542        79        20        20        28        15        29        2               
26        2246        79        20        10        25        14        25        2               
27        308        79        20        10        24        12        30        2               
28        66        77        34        24        13        12        30        2        Y       
29        2619        77        18        10        20        14        29        2               
30        2834        74        20        20        15        15        30        2               
31        74        74        10        10        24        14        30        3                Y
32        2959        70        10        10        27        14        33        2               
33        70        70        10        10        26        13        34        2               
34        1941        68        26        16        16        14        26        2               
35        1243        68        20        20        21        11        27        2               
36        3547        67        10        10        22        12        28        3               
37        3620        66        24        24        16        11        26        2               
38        326        65        10        10        22        14        28        2               
39        1250        65        10        10        22        14        28        2               
40        2000        65        0        0        26        14        34        2               
41        3536        64        0        0        26        15        34        2               
42        226        62        10        10        23        14        24        3               
43        141        61        24        24        10        9        22        3                Y
44        247        60        16        16        12        10        25        2               
45        280        60        10        10        21        12        25        2               
46        3234        59        0        0        23        12        36        2               
47        3548        58        32        24        4        3        22        2               
48        85        58        10        10        21        12        27        2               
49        2604        57        10        10        20        11        25        2        Y       
50        1596        57        10        10        14        14        28        2               
51        1322        56        0        0        25        15        24        2               
52        2611        56        0        0        24        13        32        2               
53        2832        54        16        16        11        9        25        2               
54        1025        53        8        8        14        10        26        2               
55        2474        53        0        0        22        14        26        3               
56        68        53        0        0        19        12        27        3               
57        2586        51        16        16        11        8        24        2               
58        3875        51        0        0        21        11        28        2               
59        818        50        8        8        13        10        27        2               
60        1504        50        0        0        20        13        30        2               
61        1684        49        16        16        15        8        18        2               
62        830        49        16        16        11        9        22        2               
63        3535        49        8        8        15        10        26        2               
64        3688        48        10        10        11        11        25        2               
65        3572        48        0        0        19        12        25        2               
66        910        48        0        0        19        12        22        2               
67        3322        47        0        0        18        9        27        2                Y
68        3617        46        24        24        1        1        21        2               
69        3707        46        0        0        13        13        29        2               
70        1        44        24        24        8        7        12        2        Y       
71        3357        44        24        24        2        2        18        3               
72        858        43        24        24        2        2        17        2               
73        894        43        0        0        14        14        29        2               
74        3414        42        16        16        9        7        17        2               
75        835        42        8        8        10        5        24        2               
76        3096        41        24        24        1        1        16        2               
77        703        41        8        8        17        11        16        2               
78        3773        41        0        0        13        13        26        2               
79        503        40        8        8        14        11        18        3        Y       
80        3602        40        0        0        17        9        23        2               
81        2851        40        0        0        15        8        23        2               
82        3638        40        0        0        11        11        29        2               
83        3538        38        0        0        9        9        24        2               
84        107        37        16        16        1        1        15        2               
85        903        37        0        0        13        13        24        3               
86        1701        37        0        0        11        11        26        2               
87        857        37        0        0        10        10        27        2               
88        1188        36        0        0        14        10        22        2                Y
89        3658        35        8        8        10        6        15        2               
90        2620        35        0        0        13        13        17        2               
91        3302        35        0        0        11        11        24        2               
92        2591        34        16        16        1        1        17        3               
93        3115        34        8        8        8        5        18        2               
94        2676        34        0        0        11        11        23        2               
95        313        34        0        0        10        10        24        2               
96        815        34        0        0        9        9        21        2               
97        440        33        8        8        5        5        20        3               
98        123        33        0        0        13        13        20        3               
99        1677        33        0        0        12        12        21        2               
100        3603        33        0        0        11        11        22        2               
101        3771        32        0        0        10        10        18        2               
102        3618        32        0        0        9        9        23        2               
103        3570        31        8        8        4        4        15        2               
104        3452        31        8        8        3        3        20        2               
105        3604        31        8        8        3        3        20        2               
106        3450        31        8        8        2        2        17        2               
107        3401        31        0        0        10        6        21        2               
108        3568        30        0        0        9        9        21        2               
109        1502        30        0        0        4        4        24        2                Y
110        3656        29        0        0        10        10        19        2               
111        322        29        0        0        9        9        20        2               
112        3640        28        0        0        7        7        21        2               
113        1506        28        0        0        6        6        18        2               
114        862        28        0        0        6        6        17        2                Y
115        240        28        0        0        4        4        24        2               
116        244        27        8        8        4        4        15        2               
117        3546        27        0        0        9        9        18        2               
118        3641        27        0        0        9        9        16        2               
119        2771        27        0        0        3        3        20        3               
120        3770        26        8        8        1        1        17        2               
121        3509        26        0        0        5        5        17        2               
122        470        26        0        0        2        2        24        2               
123        3537        26        0        0        0        0        21        2               
124        1711        25        0        0        10        10        11        2               
125        904        25        0        0        5        5        20        3               
126        2075        24        0        0        6        6        14        2               
127        288        22        0        0        6        6        16        2               
128        515        22        0        0        6        6        16        2               
129        3069        21        0        0        0        0        21        2               
130        1896        20        0        0        0        0        20        2               
131        2245        20        0        0        0        0        20        2               
132        2960        20        0        0        0        0        20        2               
133        3605        20        0        0        0        0        20        2               
134        3657        20        0        0        0        0        20        2               
135        3767        19        0        0        4        4        13        2               
136        1189        19        0        0        0        0        17        2               
137        2405        19        0        0        0        0        15        2               
138        1254        18        0        0        0        0        18        2               
139        3458        18        0        0        0        0        18        2               
140        3398        18        0        0        0        0        16        2               
141        314        17        0        0        0        0        17        2               
142        1076        17        0        0        0        0        17        2               
143        2673        17        0        0        0        0        17        2               
144        3175        17        0        0        0        0        17        2               
145        3421        17        0        0        0        0        17        2               
146        3534        17        0        0        0        0        17        2               
147        3601        17        0        0        0        0        17        2               
148        3621        17        0        0        0        0        17        2               
149        3632        17        0        0        0        0        17        2               
150        519        16        0        0        0        0        16        2               
151        2048        16        0        0        0        0        16        2               
152        2224        16        0        0        0        0        16        2               
153        3639        15        0        0        0        0        15        2               
154        3768        15        0        0        0        0        15        2               
155        2153        14        0        0        0        0        14        1               
156        3002        14        0        0        0        0        14        2               
157        3415        14        0        0        0        0        14        2               
158        3769        14        0        0        0        0        14        2               
159        94        14        0        0        0        0        12        2               
160        3619        14        0        0        0        0        12        2               
161        468        13        0        0        0        0        13        2               
162        3667        12        0        0        0        0        12        2               
163        3668        12        0        0        0        0        12        2               
164        3772        12        0        0        0        0        12        1               
165        216        10        0        0        0        0        10        2               
166        3655        9        0        0        0        0        9        2               
167        3706        6        0        0        0        0        4        1               
168        49        0        0        0        0        0        0        0               
169        1998        0        0        0        0        0        0        0               
170        2627        0        0        0        0        0        0        1               
171        3708        0        0        0        0        0        0        0

Chris Hibner 03-04-2011 13:26
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmhooks573 (Post 1048715)
it's updated.
Apparently it was something with Google Chrome. When I download the spreadsheet with Google Chrome, it would be the old version (I think Chrome was just saving something it had cached). When I tried downloading it with IE, it downloaded the updated spreadsheet.

Chris is me 03-04-2011 13:27
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huskie65 (Post 1048709)
Rookie All Star isn't even worth any points towards States. Bit strange really.
Wow, that's just stupid. So first year teams have to do as well as 67 or 33 to play?

rmhooks573 03-04-2011 13:31
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1048719)
Wow, that's just stupid. So first year teams have to do as well as 67 or 33 to play?
that's how it goes. but everyone is on the same platform if you think about it. no one knows the game until it comes out and afterwards and no one has "a leg up" as you can see, rookies can do well such as teams 3539 3542 and such

Steve Ketron 03-04-2011 13:41
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
When do the invites get sent out?

Jimmy Cao 03-04-2011 13:54
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Ketron (Post 1048725)
When do the invites get sent out?
According to the supplement,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michigan Rules Supplement
The final ranking list will be posted on the FIRST in Michigan website no later than 9:00 A.M. on the Sunday morning
following the Week 5 events. All eligible teams, whether they plan to attend or not, are required to go to TIMS no later
than noon on Monday following the the Week 5 events, and either register for the State Championship, or decline.
If any of the eligible teams are unable to attend, choose not to attend, or do not respond by Monday at noon, the next
team in ranked order will be eligible to take their place. Eligibility will continue to move down through the ranks until all
places at the State Championship are filled. This makes it vital for teams to notify us quickly if they do not plan to attend
So you have until Monday noon to go to TIMS and accept. There is no explicit invite besides having your team # colored in on the spreadsheet.

johnr 03-04-2011 14:11
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
910 missed out by acouple of points this year. :( So i have to ask, anybody not going that ranked high enough?

Huskie65 03-04-2011 14:22
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnr (Post 1048730)
910 missed out by acouple of points this year. :( So i have to ask, anybody not going that ranked high enough?
I really hope you guys get in. You totally deserve it. After the whole MC debacle at Troy effectivly ending our season right there, the award your team gave us really made that competition for our team. Its nice to not walk away from a good first season totally empty handed :)

Karthik 03-04-2011 14:35
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huskie65 (Post 1048734)
After the whole MC debacle at Troy effectivly ending our season right there
This statement has me a bit confused. What happened?

rmhooks573 03-04-2011 14:38
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karthik (Post 1048740)
This statement has me a bit confused. What happened?
i'm in agreement. what happened at troy? i was unable to attend.

MagiChau 03-04-2011 14:48
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
The rankings are updated for week 5. If you got at least 49 points and aren't chairmans which already is qualified, except for team 3535, you are currently qualified.

http://firstinmichigan.org/FRC_2011/2011_Results.xls

Huskie65 03-04-2011 14:48
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karthik (Post 1048740)
This statement has me a bit confused. What happened?
The 5th alliance captain 910 for their second pick choose 3538. The MC got it mixed up with 3539 (3rd alliance captain) and told him (twice) we were unavailable. They poor kid looked so confused and then the MC started in on him with the jeopardy theme and he made another pick. In the stands we thought we heard right but the 910 kid was quiet and the sound was bad so we all just stood there confused instead of speaking up then. We ended up not getting picked and the alliance didn't get out of the first round. It was unfortunate but the event coordinator apologized to our kids and First in Michigan gave us the 5 points for being picked 12th overall (along with the 3115) afterwards.

Chris is me 03-04-2011 14:50
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huskie65 (Post 1048744)
the event coordinator apologized to our kids and First in Michigan gave us the 5 points for being picked 12th overall (along with the 3115) afterwards.
This is a really nice thing of them to do! A great way to handle a bad situation.

rmhooks573 03-04-2011 14:52
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huskie65 (Post 1048744)
The 5th alliance captain 910 for their second pick choose 3538. The MC got it mixed up with 3539 (3rd alliance captain) and told him (twice) we were unavailable. They poor kid looked so confused and then the MC started in on him with the jeopardy theme and he made another pick. In the stands we thought we heard right but the 910 kid was quiet and the sound was bad so we all just stood there confused instead of speaking up then. We ended up not getting picked and the alliance didn't get out of the first round. It was unfortunate but the event coordinator apologized to our kids and First in Michigan gave us the 5 points for being picked 12th overall (along with the 3115) afterwards.
wow!!!!!!!!!! :ahh: i'm speachless. but at least you did get 5pts toward state ranking.

Ian Curtis 03-04-2011 14:57
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1048719)
Wow, that's just stupid. So first year teams have to do as well as 67 or 33 to play?
By my math, if you went 12-11-1 in qualifying, were the 8th seed's 1st pick twice, and made it to the semis at one event you'd make the cutoff. So, not at the same level as 67 or 33, but a solid robot is definitely a requirement. (Making it to the semis could be traded for two awards or winning 5 more qualifying matches)

I'm not sure exactly where the rookie numbers start this year :o, but there are at least 6 teams who qualified with numbers in the higher 3000s. About 10% rookie seems par for the course.

Huskie65 03-04-2011 14:57
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmhooks573 (Post 1048747)
wow!!!!!!!!!! :ahh: i'm speachless. but at least you did get 5pts toward state ranking.
Ya its not near enough to qualify but it does make us feel better to end the season in the top half. Troy was an emotional end to our tough season but 910 made things a lot easier. We are a super small team with no engineers or teachers and we are super proud of what we accomplished this year. As long as we secure the funding we will for sure be back next year better than ever :)

XaulZan11 03-04-2011 15:03
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Curtis (Post 1048750)
I'm not sure exactly where the rookie numbers start this year :o, but there are at least 6 teams who qualified with numbers in the higher 3000s. About 10% rookie seems par for the course.
True, but I think the bigger issue is that an award that probably means more than robot preformance has no effect on if you attend the state championship. Something seems out of wack, I think.

tracie3538 03-04-2011 15:39
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huskie65 (Post 1048744)
The 5th alliance captain 910 for their second pick choose 3538. The MC got it mixed up with 3539 (3rd alliance captain) and told him (twice) we were unavailable. They poor kid looked so confused and then the MC started in on him with the jeopardy theme and he made another pick. In the stands we thought we heard right but the 910 kid was quiet and the sound was bad so we all just stood there confused instead of speaking up then. We ended up not getting picked and the alliance didn't get out of the first round. It was unfortunate but the event coordinator apologized to our kids and First in Michigan gave us the 5 points for being picked 12th overall (along with the 3115) afterwards.
ya but 910 could've possibly gone farther if they had been able to compete with the alliance they originally wanted.

Chris is me 03-04-2011 15:46
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Curtis (Post 1048750)
By my math, if you went 12-11-1 in qualifying, were the 8th seed's 1st pick twice, and made it to the semis at one event you'd make the cutoff. So, not at the same level as 67 or 33, but a solid robot is definitely a requirement. (Making it to the semis could be traded for two awards or winning 5 more qualifying matches)

I'm not sure exactly where the rookie numbers start this year :o, but there are at least 6 teams who qualified with numbers in the higher 3000s. About 10% rookie seems par for the course.
My issue is that FIM apparently now defines success as having a good robot - seems like a different direction than the rest of FIRST. Other FIRST events give multiple pathways to success and let you choose which you really want to take (robot, "chairman's", etc) - but MSC is only concerned about the robot.

Jimmy Cao 03-04-2011 15:52
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1048773)
My issue is that FIM apparently now defines success as having a good robot - seems like a different direction than the rest of FIRST. Other FIRST events give multiple pathways to success and let you choose which you really want to take (robot, "chairman's", etc) - but MSC is only concerned about the robot.
This is not the case. The robot competition part of MSC is centered around the robot, but the culture changing portion of MSC is completely independent of the robot.

Teams that receive Engineering Inspiration or Rookie Allstar who do not qualify for the robot portion of MSC are still invited to present for those awards, which are judged apart from robot performance.

Koko Ed 03-04-2011 16:01
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1048719)
Wow, that's just stupid. So first year teams have to do as well as 67 or 33 to play?
Michigan is all about tough love. If you can make it there you can make it anywhere.

rmhooks573 03-04-2011 16:03
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko Ed (Post 1048782)
Michigan is all about tough love. If you can make it there you can make it anywhere.
love it

David Dawson 03-04-2011 16:07
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko Ed (Post 1048782)
Michigan is all about tough love. If you can make it there you can make it anywhere.
And I wouldn't have it any other way. In Michigan the #1 alliance is always in danger of losing due the the mass amount to strong teams. Having the best and worst pick sometimes isn't good enough to beat a team with 3 all around good bots. Look at Waterford as an example.

rmhooks573 03-04-2011 16:19
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Dawson (Post 1048788)
And I wouldn't have it any other way. In Michigan the #1 alliance is always in danger of losing due the the mass amount to strong teams. Having the best and worst pick sometimes isn't good enough to beat a team with 3 all around good bots. Look at Waterford as an example.
either way, states is going to be a bit more challenging than st. louis.

RyanCesiel 03-04-2011 16:29
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmhooks573 (Post 1048795)
either way, states is going to be more challenging than st. louis. just a sheer fact
We cannot go so far as to say that. There is a bountiful amount of teams outside of Michigan that are top-notch and very competitive. 1114, 111, 2056, 254, and 148 are just some of the teams that are what some would call "perennial powerhouses" and are once again living up to their reputations.

However, I am willing to bet that MSC is the most challenging event prior to St. Louis.

Richard Wallace 03-04-2011 16:31
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmhooks573 (Post 1048795)
either way, states is going to be more challenging than st. louis. just a sheer fact
The Michigan field is deeper. I agree seeding matches at MSC will be more competitive than seeding matches at the FRC Championship. But division eliminations will be the other way 'round. And Einstein will be a whole new level.

I'm looking forward to IRI this year -- expect to see 6 ubertubes, 6+ logos, and 4 minibots in MANY matches. :D

rmhooks573 03-04-2011 16:34
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard (Post 1048799)
The Michigan field is deeper. I agree seeding matches at MSC will be more competitive than seeding matches at the FRC Championship. But division eliminations will be the other way 'round. And Einstein will be a whole new level.

I'm looking forward to IRI this year -- expect to see 6 ubertubes, 6+ logos, and 4 minibots in MANY matches. :D
einstein will be just. . . ..chaotic. :yikes:

Jack Jones 03-04-2011 18:00
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1048773)
My issue is that FIM apparently now defines success as having a good robot - seems like a different direction than the rest of FIRST. Other FIRST events give multiple pathways to success and let you choose which you really want to take (robot, "chairman's", etc) - but MSC is only concerned about the robot.
The rest of FIRST, as you put it, apparently defines success as winning. Qualifying for the Championship is, for the most part, a winner-take-all situation. You have to have won the previous Championship, won a previous Championship Chairman’s Award, won a Regional, won the Engineering Inspiration Award, or have won the Rookie All-Star Award.

There are a number of teams who are always the bride’s maid. They always seed high or get picked by those who do, but never walk away with the gold. Their continued high performance should earn them the right to compete in the State championship and not give that up to a rookie who only had to compete with other rookies for their award.

jyh947 03-04-2011 18:21
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Curtis (Post 1048750)
By my math, if you went 12-11-1 in qualifying, were the 8th seed's 1st pick twice, and made it to the semis at one event you'd make the cutoff. So, not at the same level as 67 or 33, but a solid robot is definitely a requirement. (Making it to the semis could be traded for two awards or winning 5 more qualifying matches)

I'm not sure exactly where the rookie numbers start this year :o, but there are at least 6 teams who qualified with numbers in the higher 3000s. About 10% rookie seems par for the course.
If you were in the #8 seed, making it to the semifinals is very unlikely. I can say this because my team went 12-11-1 in qualifying then became the 8th seed captain, twice. My team also won the imagery award, which is worth 2 points. Had we won an award worth 5 points, we would have ended up with 50 qualifying points, thus qualifying for states.

David Dawson 03-04-2011 18:28
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
I wonder can anyone explain why the rookie inspiration got points instead of the rookie all star.

Tyler Hicks 03-04-2011 18:36
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
MSC is definitely one of the hardest, most competitive, and most exhilarating FIRST Events out there. I can tell you right now, the elimination rounds are going to be intense...very intense.

Best of luck to all teams attending, we'll see you there! :D

Andrew Schreiber 03-04-2011 18:43
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Dawson (Post 1048858)
I wonder can anyone explain why the rookie inspiration got points instead of the rookie all star.
"Cultural Awards"... From my understanding FIRST wanted to make it and the Chairman's above all that "petty" point stuff. I don't have a source for this, just baseless rumors I have heard.

Bjenks548 03-04-2011 19:16
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber (Post 1048870)
"Cultural Awards"... From my understanding FIRST wanted to make it and the Chairman's above all that "petty" point stuff. I don't have a source for this, just baseless rumors I have heard.
The thing that confuses me here is how a team qualifies for nationals in Michigan. Winning a district gives you quite a few points, while a Chairman's award gets you 0 points. I understand it is an auto qualify for States, but these points also count towards national qualification. I was disappointed when I saw a big 0 for award points next to 548 after Waterford where we won the Chairman's award.
As far as the competition goes before you say Einstein is going to be far more competitive then States. Look at the teams going, assume they were all on one field at nationals, are there enough great robots out there to make the other 3 fields just as competitive? Also take a look at the Winners from last year from states and nationals. States is 1918, 469, and 2834. Nationals is 67, 294, and 177. Which do you think would win?

Koko Ed 03-04-2011 19:23
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bjenks548 (Post 1048890)
The thing that confuses me here is how a team qualifies for nationals in Michigan. Winning a district gives you quite a few points, while a Chairman's award gets you 0 points. I understand it is an auto qualify for States, but these points also count towards national qualification. I was disappointed when I saw a big 0 for award points next to 548 after Waterford where we won the Chairman's award.
As far as the competition goes before you say Einstein is going to be far more competitive then States. Look at the teams going, assume they were all on one field at nationals, are there enough great robots out there to make the other 3 fields just as competitive? Also take a look at the Winners from last year from states and nationals. States is 1918, 469, and 2834. Nationals is 67, 294, and 177. Which do you think would win?
I wouldn't be so quick to diminish the quality of a team because they don't play in Michigan.
They are quite a few good teams who play outside of Michigan actually.

Huskie65 03-04-2011 19:23
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bjenks548 (Post 1048890)
The thing that confuses me here is how a team qualifies for nationals in Michigan. Winning a district gives you quite a few points, while a Chairman's award gets you 0 points. I understand it is an auto qualify for States, but these points also count towards national qualification. I was disappointed when I saw a big 0 for award points next to 548 after Waterford where we won the Chairman's award.
As far as the competition goes before you say Einstein is going to be far more competitive then States. Look at the teams going, assume they were all on one field at nationals, are there enough great robots out there to make the other 3 fields just as competitive? Also take a look at the Winners from last year from states and nationals. States is 1918, 469, and 2834. Nationals is 67, 294, and 177. Which do you think would win?
The year before you could say the same thing. 67, 217, and 65? Well one would be playing on both alliances lol

BX MARK 03-04-2011 19:55
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
As always there are some amazing teams/robots attending MSC this year. So, at the end of qualifications who do you think will be the #1 overall seed?

548swimmer 03-04-2011 20:05
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko Ed (Post 1048892)
I wouldn't be so quick to diminish the quality of a team because they don't play in Michigan.
They are quite a few good teams who play outside of Michigan actually.
I do not think the intent was to downplay the quality of non-Michigan teams, but instead to provide an example of how intense the MSC will be.

Bjenks548 03-04-2011 20:58
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko Ed (Post 1048892)
I wouldn't be so quick to diminish the quality of a team because they don't play in Michigan.
They are quite a few good teams who play outside of Michigan actually.
I defiantly agree that they are many many good teams outside of Michigan. I was saying that to look at MSC vs National as far as competitiveness, look to see if there are enough robots to fill the other 3 fields at nationals at the caliber of MSC. If there are then nationals is more difficult to win. If not then MSC is more difficult to win. Obviously in Michigan I don't get to see all of the great teams outside of it so I don't know which is harder to win.

r2davis2 03-04-2011 21:26
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bjenks548 (Post 1048890)
Also take a look at the Winners from last year from states and nationals. States is 1918, 469, and 2834. Nationals is 67, 294, and 177. Which do you think would win?
Not to dismiss the quality of other teams, but we went up a very similar if not more skilled alliance, that some called unstoppable...

But on the other hand I do agree with some of what you said about the Chairman's award that does deserve points as it is a very important award. But you have to look at it from a comparative stand point to other states. For example, there are many central and southern states, who share regionals, and out of the 2 or 3 states that get to participate only one sends a Chairman's team to St Louis. So to give all 9 district Chairman's winners more of a chance to compete at champs for Chairman's would cause a huge imbalance in being able to compete for Chairman's at champs.

Basel A 03-04-2011 21:41
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by r2davis2 (Post 1048954)
Not to dismiss the quality of other teams, but we went up a very similar if not more skilled alliance, that some called unstoppable...

But on the other hand I do agree with some of what you said about the Chairman's award that does deserve points as it is a very important award. But you have to look at it from a comparative stand point to other states. For example, there are many central and southern states, who share regionals, and out of the 2 or 3 states that get to participate only one sends a Chairman's team to St Louis. So to give all 9 district Chairman's winners more of a chance to compete at champs for Chairman's would cause a huge imbalance in being able to compete for Chairman's at champs.
Of course, Michigan is a good 8% of FRC, so of the 60-ish RCA/DCA winners, about 4-5 of the CMP Chairman's contenders should, if it's based on amounts of teams, be from Michigan. The reason there's 3 SCA (State Chairman's Award) winners is likely because there were three Michigan regionals, and thus three RCA winners, prior to the District system.

Jim Zondag 04-04-2011 01:21
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Dawson (Post 1048858)
I wonder can anyone explain why the rookie inspiration got points instead of the rookie all star.
This decision comes from FIRST NH. The FIRST home office wants the 3 "cultural awards" (CA, EIA, RAS) to remain separate from the rest of the competition. They believe that if we give points for these awards, that this somehow degrades them. I am sure that everyone who's team got one of these awards would probably disagree with this. If so, please forward any and all complaints to Bill Miller at FIRST. I have tried for 3 years, but apparently I am not convincing enough.

Akash Rastogi 04-04-2011 01:29
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Zondag (Post 1049070)
This decision comes from FIRST NH. The FIRST home office wants the 3 "cultural awards" (CA, EIA, RAS) to remain separate from the rest of the competition. They believe that if we give points for these awards, that this somehow degrades them. I am sure that everyone who's team got one of these awards would probably disagree with this. If so, please forward any and all complaints to Bill Miller at FIRST. I have tried for 3 years, but apparently I am not convincing enough.
Wow, I had no idea of this. That's pretty, actually really really, dumb.

Thank you Jim for pointing this out to those of us outside of FiM. I think a letter is in order.

Jim Zondag 04-04-2011 02:18
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler Hicks (Post 1048865)
MSC is definitely one of the hardest, most competitive, and most exhilarating FIRST Events out there.
For all of you aspiring Math and Science students out there:

The reason that the MSC is so awesome is that it is the only in season event that is screened for robot capability. In 2009 and 2010 it has surpassed even the World championship divisions on competitiveness, falling second only to the IRI both years (the IRI is also screened for quality). This year will likely be the same.

Run the numbers and the truth of this should jump out at you:
- The Average OPR of most 2011 Regional and District Events is 12 or less.
-The Standard Deviation of the OPRs at all the events so far is greater than the average. (get your Stats textbook and understand what this means!)
- Going into the MSC, the Average OPR will likely be 21, nearly double the average for all other events this year.
- The OPR Standard Deviation at the MSC will likely be the about 14, making it the only event where the Average - Stdev > 0, (again, check the math text to understand what this means).

So the MSC has the highest average capability, and the lowest variablity relative to the average, of any event so far this year. This is how you define a highly competitive environment: Lots of good teams, with similar capability, in the same place, at the same time.

Divisions at STL have not yet been defined, but doing the math on the 271 teams signed up so far, it is unlikely that any of the 4 STL divisions will have the concentration of skill that the MSC will have.

I, for one, live for events like this!
I can hardly wait for next weekend!

EricH 04-04-2011 03:20
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi (Post 1049071)
Thank you Jim for pointing this out to those of us outside of FiM. I think a letter is in order.
I might try my hand at a letter too, but after competition season. I've got a hunch it might be more carefully considered then.

Wayne TenBrink 04-04-2011 08:39
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
The "top end" of teams at MSC is no better than the "top end" of the teams at CMP - less, in fact, because the best non-MI teams won't be there. However, only the top 1/3 of the teams in the state make it to MSC. This will change the caliber of the qual matches because every robot in every match will be very capable of playing the game. This will make every qual match comparable to elims at a regional/district. Elims will be perhaps comparable to division elims at CMP. Einstein remains in a class by itself.

On another note - TIMS is still not letting us register for MSC. I won't have access to a computer between now and noon and haven't been able to reach our alternate team contact to make sure he can get us registered. I'm sure we are not the only team in this situation. Hope it all works out...

tr6scott 04-04-2011 11:18
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
I, for one, live for events like this!
I can hardly wait for next weekend!
I agree, how about we meet for a best robot performance in a bag match tonight? :yikes:

Clinton Bolinger 04-04-2011 11:34
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tr6scott (Post 1049164)
I agree, how about we meet for a best robot performance in a bag match tonight? :yikes:
It might come down to who can deploy their Minibot the fastest out of the bag.

-Clinton-

Don Wright 04-04-2011 11:48
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
It might come down to who can deploy their Minibot the fastest out of the bag.
It would look like Aliens...

qzrrbz 04-04-2011 12:04
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
OK... So you guys thought to put your "Tesla-beamed-power" receivers into your 'bot bags? Rats... we left ours back in the shop ... :-)

Wildcat 04-04-2011 22:00
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
anyone up for shirt trade @ MSC? my teams not attending but i plan on spending the day there anyway on saturday.i have 2 large 862 shirts for anyone interested.

rmhooks573 04-04-2011 22:02
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildcat (Post 1049522)
anyone up for shirt trade @ MSC? my teams not attending but i plan on spending the day there anyway on saturday.i have 2 large 862 shirts for anyone interested.
do you have a small?

Wildcat 04-04-2011 22:07
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmhooks573 (Post 1049525)
do you have a small?
sorry, i only have the two larges

nikeairmancurry 04-04-2011 22:07
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildcat (Post 1049522)
anyone up for shirt trade @ MSC? my teams not attending but i plan on spending the day there anyway on saturday.i have 2 large 862 shirts for anyone interested.
Im In!

Wildcat 04-04-2011 22:08
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikeairmancurry (Post 1049530)
Im In!
1 sold, 1 up for grabs yet, first come first serve

JosephC 05-04-2011 02:08
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tracie3538 (Post 1048771)
ya but 910 could've possibly gone farther if they had been able to compete with the alliance they originally wanted.
3115 was a great partner, you can't be sure that our alliance would of done better with 3538. I mean, we did win the first match but then 910s minibot deployment stopped working. Still a good run though. We were sitting with some mentors from 2337and they said our alliance was a big worry for them if we advanced.

TNT280Staff 05-04-2011 06:41
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Good Luck to all teams attending the Michigan State Championship - TnT is glad to be back, it's going to be a great competition

Refresh 05-04-2011 07:29
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildcat (Post 1049531)
1 sold, 1 up for grabs yet, first come first serve
I'll take one!

Wildcat 05-04-2011 12:29
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Refresh (Post 1049643)
I'll take one!
and there goes #2

nikeairmancurry 05-04-2011 13:36
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
326 will be there with a good amount of Minibots and deployments... We are going to try and let as many teams as possible try to use them... The minibot can easily be fitted to almost any robot and the minibot itself is about 1 second.. For more information, we will be passing out flyers in the pits and you can stop by our pit...

MagiChau 05-04-2011 13:42
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Can't believe the pits open in just one more day. Excited to see the robots in person that didn't go to West Michigan or Traverse City. BOB has a new and improved deployment system itching to be tested on the field. Let's rack and roll.

Andrew Schreiber 05-04-2011 13:56
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiChau (Post 1049772)
Can't believe the pits open in just one more day. Excited to see the robots in person that didn't go to West Michigan or Traverse City. BOB has a new and improved deployment system itching to be tested on the field. Let's rack and roll.


Don't remind me, I still haven't recovered from Troy.

Rack 'n Roll was 2007... What's the name of the game? (Stack Attack)

MishraArtificer 05-04-2011 17:09
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber (Post 1049776)
Don't remind me, I still haven't recovered from Troy.

Rack 'n Roll was 2007... What's the name of the game? (Stack Attack)
Calling you out for a ABBA reference!

With that uot of the way, I may be able to sneak out there on Saturday after work in my last vintage 2005 Team 240 TEMPEST Robotics shirt.

johnr 05-04-2011 17:28
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Wow, 910 made it in. I'm real happy for you guys. Now i have something to do saturday.:)

rmhooks573 05-04-2011 18:29
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnr (Post 1049876)
Wow, 910 made it in. I'm real happy for you guys. Now i have something to do saturday.:)
great job 910! can't wait to see you guys at states. its just not the same without the blue tie-dye shirts there

rmhooks573 05-04-2011 19:44
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
btw, if anyone wants to trade shirts or is selling a shirt i'm always looking for trade/buy

wo-bot 141 05-04-2011 20:37
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
ill be bringing old shirts i have from 141 up for trades. should be around the pits if your interested. shirts go back to 05!!

Carolyn_Grace 05-04-2011 22:12
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Make sure to let someone on your team know about the NEMO (Non-Engineering Mentors Organization) meeting at 9:30am on Saturday. This is a great opportunity to network with other teams and learn about helpful non-technical resources. The meeting will be about an hour long, with the following goals in mind:
1. To stimulate the growth of NEMO by recruiting new members
2. To bring NEMs together for networking
3. To bring NEMS together to encourage sharing of resources
4. To network with teams who do not have NEMs

Please come and go as you wish: we know that your first priority is to your team.

It'll be in Room 137A, Arena level, in the west hallway, by robot queuing.

rmhooks573 06-04-2011 09:30
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Nice Work Productions will be fimling MSC and it will be televised on april 16th on ABC. but because of this, music will NOT be played throughout the semis and the finals. :eek: but as a trade off this is a great way to promote FIRST.

Refresh 06-04-2011 09:36
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmhooks573 (Post 1050251)
Nice Work Productions will be fimling MSC and it will be televised on april 16th on ABC. but because of this, music will NOT be played throughout the semis and the finals. :eek: but as a trade off this is a great way to promote FIRST.
Whoa? Where did you find this? This is awesome! Well, not the no music part, but still!

Jimmy Cao 06-04-2011 09:39
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Refresh (Post 1050253)
Whoa? Where did you find this? This is awesome! Well, not the no music part, but still!
From an email from Gail Alpert, yesterday afternoon

Quote:
This year we've hired Nice Work Productions to create a one hour TV show of the Semi-finals and Finals at the State Championship. The show will be structured like a real sports broadcast, with play by play announcing and color commentary.

The show will air at:

1:00 pm on Saturday, April 16 on ABC and all of the ABC affiliates across Michigan except for WJRT in Flint which will broadcast it at 11:00 am on Sunday, April 17.


We hope the show will be viewed not only by those currently involved in FIRST, but by the general public as well.


Nice Work will have one chance to get it right. To do so, we ask for your help with the following:


1. Additional lighting above the Alliance Stations.

A strip of small bulbs will be placed above the Alliance stations on the back of the team numbers during all qualifying and the elimination rounds. This will give teams a chance to get used to them before the semis and final rounds. The lights will help the production cameras see the driver's faces.




2. Robot mounted cameras:

Each alliance that makes it to the semi-finals will be asked to choose one robot on their alliance that will allow a small, light-weight camera to be mounted to it for live action robot shots.



3. Music will be off during matches:

No music will be playing during the semi-final matches and final matches. This will allow the play by play and color commentary to be heard more clearly.


4. Unscheduled time-outs:

There may be some time outs taken between rounds to allow the cameras to get set up. The producers will do their best to keep these at a minimum.



5. Briefing for all 8 alliances during lunch with producers:

There will be a lunch time briefing for all alliances with the production team (location tba) to go over any issues and to answer any questions.



Thank you in advance for your flexibility with these changes and we look forward to a great event.

Refresh 06-04-2011 09:45
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
This is so cool!!!! Man this event is going to be awesome!!!!

rmhooks573 06-04-2011 09:54
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
i guess i'm going to have to dance to the music like crazy during the qualifications :cool:

MagiChau 06-04-2011 10:41
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
I wonder how their commentary will go. Hopefully they had some practice familiarizing themselves with FIRST.

RyanCesiel 06-04-2011 12:27
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Just a FYI... As if General Motors doesn't already have enough invested in the Michigan State Championship (I believe 22 teams? which would = 110,000 in entrance fees), this program that will be airing on ABC is also thanks to General Motors. My dad, our team's contact with General Motors, mentioned that the airtime for this program was paid for by General Motors and the program will be "sponsored by Chevrolet".

Not enough can be said about GM's support of FIRST and FIRST teams. A HUGE thank you to our team's sponsor and the sponsor of many, many other FIRST teams. Thanks also to Dave Verbrugge, the primary FIRST team contact for GM, Tom Stephens (GM Global Chief Technology Officer) for helping maintain a strong relationship between GM and FIRST, and all GM employees (and former employees) that mentor FIRST teams (our team has 4!).

Andrew Schreiber 06-04-2011 12:51
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MishraArtificer (Post 1049860)
Calling you out for a ABBA reference!
What?

Andy Baker 06-04-2011 13:11
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
I wonder how many folks from outside of Michigan will be traveling to Ypsi to see the MSC. Chris Fultz, Dan Green, and I will be there. It will be exciting to see this great event. Who else is coming in?

Andy B.

nikeairmancurry 06-04-2011 13:14
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
In years past Koko Ed and Karthik have made appearances... I'd suggested this to many other teams outside Michigan... This event is probably the most competitive event other then IRI and Einstien...

Karthik 06-04-2011 13:22
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Baker (Post 1050321)
I wonder how many folks from outside of Michigan will be traveling to Ypsi to see the MSC. Chris Fultz, Dan Green, and I will be there. It will be exciting to see this great event. Who else is coming in?

Andy B.
Teams 1114 and 2056 will be represented.

qzrrbz 06-04-2011 13:40
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karthik (Post 1050325)
Teams 1114 and 2056 will be represented.
And you would certainly be in our thoughts even if you weren't there! :D

nikeairmancurry 07-04-2011 21:52
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
This Event has been insane so far!!!! In what other event can you score over 100 points can lose a match!

Craig Roys 07-04-2011 21:55
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Through the first 33 matches, day one had been incredible:
  • We're seeing an average score of just under 73 - which means average combined score so far is just under 146.
  • Average winning alliance score is 94 and average losing alliance score is 51.
  • We've seen a combined score of 215 twice.
  • We've seen an alliance score 106 points and lose.

I'm extremely excited to see what develops tomorrow and heading into Saturday. I'm thinking the the eliminations rounds will be insane.

Karthik 07-04-2011 21:59
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Roys (Post 1050600)
Through the first 33 matches, day one had been incredible:
  • We're seeing an average score of just under 73 - which means average combined score so far is just under 146.
  • Average winning alliance score is 94 and average losing alliance score is 51.
  • We've seen a combined score of 215 twice.
  • We've seen an alliance score 106 points and lose.
I'm extremely excited to see what develops tomorrow and heading into Saturday. I'm thinking the the eliminations rounds will be insane.
Also averaging over 2.5 successfully deployed minibots per match. Simply astounding.

KrazyCarl92 07-04-2011 22:13
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karthik (Post 1050604)
Also averaging over 2.5 successfully deployed minibots per match. Simply astounding.
And not a single match without a successful Minibot, wow!

qzrrbz 07-04-2011 22:15
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
The serpentine draft may very well "stack" the *bottom* alliances -- quarterfinals should all be furballs, too!

Bjenks548 07-04-2011 22:22
Re: Michigan State Championship
 
One problem I am noticing for strategy is the robots are too good. Its very difficult to score with all three robots scoring, and the robots are good enough that all of them should be. Its bad telling a robot I just saw score 4 tubes on the top row that there going to have to play defense/ feeder this match.


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