Chief Delphi - Team Update #21

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Re: Team Update #21

For years now 1675 has had a small group in the stands with scouting data and a big dry erase board to relay team numbers to the person on the field.

Re: Team Update #21

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1049870)

Please state where in the rules that alliance selection is included.

Please state where each of the rules state that they are included anywhere, and section titles don't do that. (there are a few exceptions/inclusions, but generally the rules are considered in force unless otherwise specified)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Steele (Post 1049884)

By your logic... no one could bring a microphone into the arena... or rollerblades... etc etc... it does not SAY this pertains only to the TEAMS.

It might be necessary to just use common sense... and past practice..
and the update information

Correct, but since the ARENA is specifically defined there would be little issue with rollerblades and such (I haven't seen anyone bring rollerblades to the ARENA). And anything brought into the ARENA (such as a microphone) would have to provide an 'advantage' to be considered against the rules.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 1049927)

If all the Game rules apply to Alliance Selection, then everyone gets a Penalty for entering the Field. <G28>

I guess they feel that since all teams get a penalty, they'll just overlook it ;)

Re: Team Update #21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 1049849)

<T25> and <T26> would seem to disallow this

Once you've decided that <T25> and <T26> aren't restricted to match play, they disallow a heck of a lot of things we all take for granted that have been legal at just about every regional I can think of. Just to belabor the point, here's a brief list of things that I'll be expecting you to leave behind when you enter the ARENA, no matter when that is:

Pick lists written on whiteboards, paper tablets, etc.
Pens, pencils, and other writing implements for your illegal paper
Wagons, robot carts, etc.
Gloves for lifting robots
Any special fixturing a team has for safely lifting a robot
Multimeter for quickly diagnosing any robot problems
Tools for quickly fixing any robot problems
Laptop for fixing programs or for the on-field calibration at Champs
Phones, cameras, etc for recording what's being said during driver meetings
Cameras for snapping pictures during award ceremonies
Tools being used by teams that stay behind to help disassemble the field after the regional

I'm sure I'm missing a lot of things. If anyone else wants to chip in "special equipment" that teams typically use during awards ceremonies, drivers meetings, or pre/post matches, feel free.

On another note, exactly what was your proposed enforcement method to penalize a team for bringing a camera on field during the Saturday Awards? Revoke their award and assign it to another team on the spot?

Oh, and no pleading that it doesn't apply to awards ceremonies for some reason. You've decided it applies to the ARENA period, with no limit on the timeframe. That's possibly supportable in the text of the rules. You can't support "just MATCHES and ALLIANCE SELECTION" anymore than we could support "just MATCHES". Somewhat less, in fact, since we have precedent and a Q&A ruling on our side.

Re: Team Update #21

Is there really being a discussion about this?

Laptops, IPads, Cell Phones, use a Supercomputer if you want... Come on, as long as the picks are made in a timely manner everything is good. If you are that annoyed by this, I think you have bigger issues here.

Re: Team Update #21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Delles (Post 1050082)

Is there really being a discussion about this?

Yes, there is really being a discussion about this. Some regional events have imposed "house rules" prohibiting the use of phones and laptops by the team representatives during alliance selection. Those rules are not supported by the Game Manual, and they are explicitly contradicted by the GDC, but they exist.

Re: Team Update #21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 1049849)

<T25> and <T26> would seem to disallow this

Quote:
<T25> The only equipment that may be brought on to the ARENA is the OPERATOR CONSOLE, reasonable decorative items, and special clothing and/or equipment required due to a disability. Other items, particularly those intended to provide a competitive advantage for the TEAM, are prohibited.

<T26> Devices used solely for the purpose of planning or tracking strategy of game play are allowed inside the ALLIANCE STATION, if they meet ALL of the following conditions:
 Do not connect or attach to the OPERATOR CONSOLE
 Do not connect or attach to the FIELD or ARENA
 Do not connect or attach to another ALLIANCE member
 Do not communicate with anything or anyone outside of the ARENA.
 Do no include any form of enabled wireless electronic communication (e.g. radios, walkie-talkies, cell phones, Bluetooth communications, WiFi, etc.)
 Do not in any way affect the outcome of a MATCH, other than by allowing TEAM members to plan or track strategy for the purposes of communication of that strategy to other ALLIANCE members.
Emphisis mine.

Daniel,
You really need to download an updated manual::rtm:: <T25> was changed in TU13. Here are the current versions:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mar 22 Manual

<T25> The only equipment that may be brought in to the ALLIANCE STATION is the OPERATOR CONSOLE and non-powered ANALYST-to-FEEDER signaling devices. Reasonable decorative items, and special clothing and/or equipment required due to a disability may be brought into the ALLIANCE or FEEDER STATIONS. Other items, particularly those intended
to provide a competitive advantage for the TEAM, are prohibited.
<T26> Devices used solely for the purpose of planning or tracking strategy of game play are allowed inside the ALLIANCE STATION, if they meet ALL of the following conditions:
 Do not connect or attach to the OPERATOR CONSOLE
 Do not connect or attach to the FIELD or ARENA
 Do not connect or attach to another ALLIANCE member
 Do not communicate with anything or anyone outside of the ARENA.
 Do no include any form of enabled wireless electronic communication (e.g. radios, walkie-talkies, cell phones, Bluetooth communications, WiFi, etc.)
 Do not in any way affect the outcome of a MATCH, other than by allowing TEAM members to plan or track strategy for the purposes of communication of that strategy to other ALLIANCE members.

My emphasis on the critical difference, there is no mention of the ARENA in <T25>. So Mark is right. No one in inside the Alliance Station, so <T25> & <T26> don't apply during Alliance Selection.

Everyone, if you haven't downloaded a manual since March 22 please download the updated version. Rules are in flux all season and it is important to keep everyone on the same page to avoid confusion. Also, please take extra care to ensure correctness when quoting the manual on any forum.

Re: Team Update #21

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Lucas (Post 1050111)

Daniel,
You really need to download an updated manual::rtm:: <T25> was changed in TU13. Here are the current versions:

My emphasis on the critical difference, there is no mention of the ARENA in <T25>. So Mark is right. No one in inside the Alliance Station, so <T25> & <T26> don't apply during Alliance Selection.

Everyone, if you haven't downloaded a manual since March 22 please download the updated version. Rules are in flux all season and it is important to keep everyone on the same page to avoid confusion. Also, please take extra care to ensure correctness when quoting the manual on any forum.

I stand corrected.

Re: Team Update #21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 1050412)

I stand corrected.

Additionally, in your original post the rule (<T26>) you quoted talked about the ALLIANCE STATION. The ALLIANCE STATION is not the FIELD.

In my experience alliance selection does not occur in the ALLIANCE STATION (correct me if I'm wrong here).

Re: Team Update #21

This thread is blowing my mind. As someone who has been on the field for alliance selections several times, I have never been at a regional where they havent specifically said before alliance selections began, "turn off your phones."

I guess this is more prevalent in the north east but I have always hated that regionals do this and am very glad to see now that what they are doing is in fact against the rules. I hope it stays this way so that next year I can say to the people telling the student on the field to turn off their phone, "here is the rule" and that will hopefully end that.

Re: Team Update #21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Cormier (Post 1049837)

It should not have to come down to a team update. I never saw a rule against it and there should have never been any regionals not allowing it.

Well, alliances captains in both NYC and Hawaii were told not to use them.
Specifically, we had an iPad and had to quickly write it on a piece of paper with team numbers but NO notes.

I'm glad an update came out.

I cant see how any team would have a competitive advantage, when in fact, they themselves do their homework in scouting teams during qualifications.

Re: Team Update #21

Quote:

Originally Posted by tim-tim (Post 1049945)

At Chesapeake, the ref asked the alliance captain to put his phone away.

I don't see the big deal. If you can't use electronic devices, resort to old technology. We had a dry erase board and marker. Much cheaper than an iPad or phone.

Also, have a pick list made with a few different scenarios. Choose a representative that has been given a walk through of what you expect them to do, just don't give a high school student a list of numbers.

Honestly, I think it is a big deal.
This is 2011! those days of a dry erase board and marker are easily replaced with personal electronic do-it-all devices.

Time to get with the program.:)

Re: Team Update #21

Quote:

Originally Posted by jblay (Post 1050428)

I have never been at a regional where they havent specifically said before alliance selections began, "turn off your phones."

At the Connecticut Regional, they were very explicit about disallowing all electronic devices during Alliance Selections

Re: Team Update #21

Computers were allowed in Vegas, but the teams who used them were basically mocked, which I find to be rather sad, honestly.

Re: Team Update #21

Quote:

Originally Posted by demosthenes2k8 (Post 1050555)

Computers were allowed in Vegas, but the teams who used them were basically mocked

Mocked by whom?

Re: Team Update #21

I don't recall the exact words, but the announcer was basically, "And look at that. Another laptop." and generally teasing the teams that used laptops. At least, that's how it sounded to me.