Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

The power of wishful thinking!

Speaking of wishful thinking...do teams who make it to Einstein get any chance to do calibration on the new field? It would be a shame to see robots dropping ubertubes or slamming into walls on FIRST's grandest stage because the dimensions or lighting are slightly off.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Hasn't FIRST allowed this in Previous years? I thought they did, or at least in years when teams actually used the CMU Cam (2006/2007)

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

We have seen a good deal of evidence that FIRST is very starry-eyed about entertainment celebrity. There is no venue other than the dome for a large-scale concert that everyone could attend. We all know who is performing, and we are now learning what it will cost us. (Sorry, Jane - I do believe that this IS the reason.)

I've always thought that he FIRST Championship was slightly more about sponsors, media, publicity and VIPs than about young students and their experience.

I very much hope that the "Finale" event will have the party atmosphere where everyone can interact with everyone else that it has in the post-Epcot years.

Regardless, this will be our first time to the Championship in several years. We will keep a positive attitude and I'm sure we'll all have a great time.

-Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Speculation is running rampant in this thread regarding a "big musical act" in the Dome following the finals.

There's some evidence to support this: a post indicating the fields were configured to accommodate a stage, a lack of information regarding the finale, (normally the hotel package includes admission to the finale event - no mention of that on the Steele Meetings site), and Dean's promise at kickoff of seeing Will.I.Am later this year.

If we're going to be "entertained" in the Dome after the finals, what are the implications?

Here are a few worth considering:

The weather in St. Louis is unpredictable. I know, I lived there for 18 years. Conditions might be beautiful, but it might just be cold and rainy in late April. Having the finale inside the Dome takes weather out of the equation.

In past years, I've seen teams streaming out of the Georgia Dome before the Finals were even finished. (Maybe they didn't want to stand in line for cold food?) That wouldn't happen if the "show" stayed in the Dome.

What about Dean's homework? Are we attracting spectators to FIRST events who are NOT part of a team? A free concert could certainly boost the crowd in the Dome. But will those spectators be engaged by the robotics competition or the FIRST program? Or worse, could this create crowd control and security issues?

Whatever is planned for after the Finals, I hope FIRST remembers the teams come to Championship to compete. Teams work hard to raise funds, build robots, and work around school schedules to travel to FIRST's showcase event. If teams leave feeling as if the matches were downplayed in importance at the event, then Championship might lose some of it's luster.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

A security nightmare if true. Competition has always been open to the public. It would be impossible to keep the plans secret.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Because of the timing this year, we are having a hard time getting students excused from school. AP exams begin the following week, and teachers, parents, and the students are having reservations about missing the review. I wish that FIRST would keep the focus on them, but I agree with the poster above who said that the focus seems to be changing. It's too bad, because the kids put time into it for the payoff of the matches, not a concert.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I hope that no one takes this the wrong way, but:

If I or my team are unable to find seats for the finals because there are hundreds or thousands of spectator that just came to see Will.I.Am or whatever performer, perform - I'm going to start looking into other programs, after raising all hell.

Seriously, I feel that it's disrespectful to teams to move fields around just to make room for some entertainer. Teams are going to COMPETE and paid a lot of money and worked extremely hard to do so - the only thing that a live musical guest is going to do is piss a ton of people off - including myself.

If anything, moving fields around or out of the dome to make room for a large stage for Entertainment seems to go against everything that FIRST says that their for. I thought we were going to change the culture, not have the culture change us.

I don't see why they don't have the Finale Party inside of the same building in which the pits are housed, I'm sure there will be an open room or two that are large enough to accommodate everyone along with a decent sized stage. I'm pretty sure this is what was done in Atlanta when the weather was too nasty for people to be outside.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I would agree that moving competition fields around for an entertainer is pretty distasteful, if that is what is happening. If they are giving FLL / FTC a bigger stage for Friday, that seems understandable.

If they have a big name entertainer there to draw people in during the finals, is that going to result in a significant number of people joining FIRST programs? I'd guess that the organizers asked that question and determined that the answer was "yes" and planned their logistics accordingly.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I don't know why everyone's running with the "FIRST has a big performer coming!" rumor, but right now it is nothing more than pure speculation, with no evidence to suggest that is what happening. Let's wait to criticize FIRST on that issue until it actually happens...

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Our team (and I assume many others) is having the same problem with our IB. Roughly 24 hours after we get home from St. Louis, our seniors have to take their first exam. Not to mention we're missing reviews that will cover the two-three years of content on the exams. Luckily, the seniors on our team have already prepared for this: we're having our own study/review sessions.

It would be pretty nice if FIRST could accomodate for these very expensive and important tests. As is, FIRST doesn't give me college credit :/

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

April 20 can't come soon enough...

-Nick

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Update on the blog:

http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2011...ion.html#links

I sincerely hope the reason they only have 3 fields in the dome is NOT for the entertainment reasons stated above.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

After reading this I'm seriously thinking champs is just going to be a mess. The focus clearly isn't on the competition anymore...

-Nick

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I like how there's an available field on the Dome floor they're not using.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I can't believe that some teams will win their division on a field in the pits. Oh, and bleacher seats are most comfortable. 86 teams on two spans of bleachers? Oh joy.

Horrible.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

How is this any different than Atlanta?

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

After reading the update to the blog, I'm even more upset/worried about the Championship.

He clarified and said that Eliminations will be held in the pits? How do we decide which to divisions are relegated to the pits, and which two get the "high profile" (his words) fields in the dome? Granted it's an honor to compete in the Championships, but the fact that half of the competitions will be behind the scenes and not in plain view for spectators is kind of contrary to the point isn't it?

And I also agree with Dustin in the fact that if we are going through this rigamaroll all because a musical group has to have a certain sized stage for their closing act...then we might be more lost than originally anticipated.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

The only thing we know for sure is that someone at HQ is reading ChiefDelphi and is taking it seriously. That's FANTASTIC!!!!!

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

In Atlanta they don't need to shuttle people to the pits to play matches?

The bleacher set up they have advertised is a smaller version of the bleachers at the CT regional. These bleachers were not big enough for only 60 teams.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

All the speculation about why there are real fields in the pits is basically unfounded, but no matter the reason it comes down to this for me:

FRC is FIRST's marquee event. I appreciate that FTC and FLL kids put a ton of work into their respective events, but if FIRST wants to be big time, be on major television networks and get the kind of exposure real sports get, they need to have their marquee program front and center. ESPN is not going to waste half a second thinking about putting some boring FTC bots on live (or tape delayed) TV.

So essentially regardless of the reason for the move of 2 fields, FIRST should have done whatever it took, including the removal of FTC/FLL from the dome entirely, to keep all 4 divisions in the dome.

$0.02

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Your first question has nothing to do about Einstien being used for FLL just like it always has and I saw nothing indicating the size of the bleachers just somebodies speculation.


There is a whole lot of wild speculation being done here.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I'm certainly going to miss the comfy chairs of the dome when we move to the "intimate" setting of the pits. It's going to be tough to sit and scout all day on the pit fields. Assuming of course, our team finds a place to sit.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Absolutely, 100% in agreement. The grand irony is that FLL/FTC is a lot easier to watch (IMO) in a tighter environment anyhow...

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I wanted to see an update from Bill saying, that they considered changing this, but I suppose its not going to happen...

I feel this is a 10 steps back for FIRST... Can someone just explain why this is happening?? Take away the speculations and just give answers! I'm highly upset that if my team qualifies for Championship this weekend, that we only have half a weekend in the dome! This change wasn't needed!! I love the idea of not having to go far for matches, because the walk in Atlanta was rediculas, but why cause others to get a better effect of Championship then others? One thing I loved doing the last 5 years has walking from from field to field to see the action.. And now they tell me I can only watch 2?? In one place?? Plus the effect is lost somewhere in the field shuffling.. This is bad.. FIRST needs to highly reconsidered this quickly.. Or Championships next year might have a good drop in attendance...

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Who's excited that he's only toting the robot 1/4-mile for HALF of the matches?

<==== This guy!

Well, except we'll get a few more qual matches (doh!) so it evens out to what it was in Atlanta. Also, as a guy who's usually in the pits/on field for ALL of the championships up until the end of quals, I'm personally very glad to have a short commute to at least one of the playing fields if I get a brief respite. FIRST was even generous to bless me with TWO options! Alright, maybe the excitement IS overstated, yet these small things (to me) balance out the supposed logistic nightmare. The average team will have enough of their wits about them to be able to switch robot toting paths. As for scouts -- that's self explanatory: if your scouts are any good at scouting, then they're obviously intelligent enough to figure out the swap as well. So really it's about moving over all of the team's "fans".

Cory, you have a very good point IMO. We'll have to wait and see what the real reason is.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Agreed! No one has mentioned the size of the bleachers or how many will be on each side. I also love how everyone has dragged Will.I.Am into the reason why they are changing the setup. Stop speculating.

This is obviously something FIRST is going full steam ahead with for STL and there is nothing we can do about it unfortunately.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

But Fergie revealed a Lego Dress last weekend! OMG it must mean they're coming!

</sarcasm>

Google it if you want, but it would need to be ahem, lengthened, for the FIRST Community. The timing, though, is hilarious.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

This tread is starting to sound like a championship version of the game hint. I think that we ought to take the first letter of every sentence of the blog and see if it is a secret code. (kidding) Everybody needs to take a step back and a deep breath and wait till April 20th. All the doom and gloom that is being stated is being based on facts not in evidence. I have a lot of faith in Bill and the First Championship Planning Committee. Give them the benefit of the doubt. They have a very difficult job. Save any criticism till after the event.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Fergie, legos, FLL, Black Eyed Peas, Will i am, ... they ARE coming! ;)

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/fergies-legos-dress

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I haven't read all the posts on this thread, but more than enough to chime in. I'm very saddened by many of the complaints I read here.

What is FIRST? "For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology."

From the web site:

Vision

"To transform our culture by creating a world where science and technology are celebrated and where young people dream of becoming science and technology leaders."


Mission

"Our mission is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, by engaging them in exciting mentor-based programs that build science, engineering and technology skills, that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication, and leadership."

One of the often stated goals is to inspire kids to take an interest in engineering fields. I suspect everyone that cares enough about FIRST to read this thread (and this post) is already inspired. FIRST has accomplished their goal with respect to you.

When I first saw Will.i.am at kickoff and Dean alluded to seeing him again later, my first thought was that their would be a free (or nearly free, perhaps a food shelf donation) concert at St. Louis. Or perhaps for the general public to get into the concert you have to visit the pits and get your ticket stamped by 20 teams after seeing their bot. At the concert you'd also get to see matches played. This would be a great way to get kids in the St. Louis area who have no idea about engineering and only care about pop music and bounce, bounce, pass exposed to FIRST and engineering.

FIRST is not about all about you and your experience and whether your experience is maximized. Would you rather have a great personal experience or would you rather know that your team was instrumental in getting hundreds of Will.i.am kids involved in FIRST who may not have had any previous idea or inkling about the wonders of engineering?

The notion that the dome should be reserved for FRC, and push FLL or FTC to smaller venues is pretty selfish. You know how exciting and important you feel competing under a dome (well some of you do.) How much more exciting and encouraging do you think it is for a 4th or 5th grader? If you get a 4th grader excited and that excitement rubs off on her classmates for the next 8 years, is that not better than a sophmore who will have less influence on an older set of peers for a shorter time?

If the St. Loius model (what ever it turns out to be) had been the 'norm' for the last seven or ten years, everyone would be ecstatic to be going to CMP, and there would be little complaining.

Get over yourselves. Its not all about you.

John Vriezen
Team 2530 "Inconceivable"
Mentor, Drive Coach, Inspector

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I think that's just a bit harsh John ;) ... but well said!

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I think there might be something else going on here, besides what people are suspecting.

FRC has 3 fields. Presumably, one of them is Einstein field. Traditionally, FLL plays on Einstein Thursday and Friday, then on Saturday the field is turned over to FRC crews to put everything in that needs to go in. FLL is even bigger than FRC internationally. I might suspect space for a few more tables.

FTC has had the space of another field, traditionally. That gives them two fields. I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see them with a larger area.

But that's only half the floor space... what could go in the other half?

How about 1-3 fields for the FIRST College Pilot competition? I don't remember offhand how big those fields are supposed to be--but when you have aerial vehicles, you need extra space, for the protective netting, if nothing else.

How about a dedicated FLL space? As in, not shared with FRC? More FLL matches is not a bad thing!

How about volunteer food? (Actually... If I was FIRST, I'd put that elsewhere. Can't have the mass of hungry high school students trying to raid the volunteer food.)

There are also a couple other places to consider that I haven't heard anything about. The America's Ballroom (2nd floor) is large enough to host FTC or FLL, pits and all. I doubt they'll be up there, though. There's also a theater in the building that could accommodate either one (though without the pits). Again, I doubt they'll be in there.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I agree that FTC and FLL especially need more space, FLL is growing so much faster than any other program. FLL has had to cut back a ton over the years with not every state attending the Championship every year with the number of international teams expanding at a rapid rate.

FIRST college competition? I haven't seen or heard anything about that officially, just a thread on CD months ago.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I've had a look at their rulebook (admittedly several months ago). 3 different competitions, all with a required air vehicle and 2 of the 3 with an optional ground vehicle. IIRC, they were planning to compete in St. Louis with everybody else. And from what I remember, it's a really showy field--just the sort of thing you'd want out in the middle of the action.

But if you're going to have aerial vehicles indoors, and you don't have some form of safety netting, you should really think about getting some.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Sounds cool! Thanks Eric!

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

FIRST may not be about maximizing any one particular person's experience, but they are about maximizing the experience of their target audience and customers. FIRST's biggest recruiting tool is not a single high-profile event with pop stars, it's all the teams and the students and mentors on those teams going out in to the community and making targeted pitches.

To that end, the complaint is that FIRST would be sacrificing their current customer's enjoyment to try and expose the program to prospective customers, and in doing so may be hurting their own efforts. If teams come back from champs feeling like FIRST doesn't care about them, they're going to have a much harder time getting enthused to go recruit and to inspire their own teams.

Teams are paying a lot of money to attend this event, and most of are doing that under the premise that they can use this to wow and inspire their own students. As much as they might support FIRST's mission to recruit new members, I highly doubt they're willing to spend that money so that others can enjoy a free concert and maybe see what's going on.

The bottom line is, the teams are the paying customers of FIRST, and FIRST needs to respect that. Getting to the championships is the goal of almost every team in first; it gives them something to work towards, it's the crowning achievement of a season. To get there and feel like you have to take a back seat to some big show that FIRST has organized undermines that entirely. These students are attending under the premise that they are the main attraction.

I believe it would be extremely counter-productive to FIRST's goals to push FRC fields out of the dome for an entertainment show. They keep telling us we need to celebrate and idolize engineers, but then they make those take a back seat to a rock star...it seems kind of hypocritical. I refuse to believe that FIRST is really that ignorant.

Edit: EricH, I really hope you're right about expanding programs needing more space, and showcasing CollegeFIRST. That makes much more sense to me than some big show. If they need to put the wrap party indoors for weather reasons, perhaps they put that in one of the conference halls and moved FLL or FTC on to the dome floor.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I'm glad a few people beat me to the "Stop Whining" punch...

The fact is, people are resistant to change. Everything is new. FIRST has changed the venue, thus it is going to create change... nearly everyone here seems to think change is bad.

Heck my first thought was "ugh we have to lug our scouting setup halfway through the day on friday, and gosh, during the Deans List presentation! how rude!"... but then I immediately volunteered to organize a group of 3 of us to do it so the rest of the team could go see the Dean's list presentation.

My second thought was exactly JesseK's "SWEET, I can be in both the pits and at the scouting/matches at the same time!! I dont have to walk a bazillion miles for every match!"

Its new... Its different... LIVE WITH IT. It may not be so bad!

FIRST has their reasons (which we dont know yet), and I'm sure 3 years from now we will find something else to whine and complain about and will forget that we even had a time before there were 3 fields in the Dome.... :D

Don't get me wrong, healthy conversation & concern can be useful and has helped bring about some great changes... but when after a hundred posts it winds down to people bashing FIRST for decisions we don't even know about, random speculation and whining... well its just not productive anymore. If you really have a concern or issue, have your team leader email FIRST to bring it up. If you are just concerned that it wont be glamorous enough, well just wait and see. It might be better than you think.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I see your point, maybe there has been a little bit of whining going on but I think it's understandable.

Teams work hard to raise the money to go to Championship. It's our money that makes it possible for us to rent out an awesome venue like the Georgia Dome and the Edward Jones Dome. We give that money to FIRST and they are choosing how to spend OUR money. I think what has people most upset is just the plain lack of explanation. If it wasn't our money then we would have no right to complain. But it is our money and we are spending A LOT of it and I think we deserved better then a HUGE change with ZERO explanation.

It might be great, it might not, at the very least we should have gotten some sort of explanation.

I think it's sad that the only benefit we've been able to find out of this whole situation is the walk to the field from the pits is shorter...

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

A collegiate showcase would be very cool. I am hoping that the extra space they're freeing up is for something robot and student related as opposed to something pop culture related.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I remember the FIRST College Pilot Manual said that the fields are standard sized FRC fields 27 ft by 54 ft. So there are six FRC sized fields. I think there 6 or 12 teams competing in the pilot competition.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I agree about the whining, but for the most part this thread has been good questions and speculations.

Please don't forget, the teams are the customers and FIRST is the vendor. FIRST has an obligation to communicate to the customer when changes to the product are being made.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I don't really see it that way at all. FIRST is a non-profit organization, and all of us are members of that organization, not customers. Yes, we have to make payments (fees) to participate in various events, whether regionals or CMP. I believe FIRST *did* communicate a change to the product (hence this thread), and it was primarily a logistical one (moving fields and swapping fields), not a substantive one. The fundamental aspects of 'the product' haven't changed... You get to compete with all the regional winners, chairman's winner's etc. The field will still be 27'x54' just as you expected.

Now, if they said we don't have time/space to run Einstein so we'll just have four co-champion alliances, or if they said the fields will be under water, that would be a change to product :-)

The rules include a section on Tournaments, and I think most, if not all of those rules (include informing you of changes via Team updates and Q&A) are still applicable --

If they answered all the questions being raised here, those answers would elicit a bunch more questions. I suspect they don't even know all the answers to the first order questions yet, as Bill alluded to in his blog post. They are trying to stage a huge event with tons of logistics to consider, let them do their job and cut them some slack.... With a new venue as well as other motivations to change/improve things, some things won't be as you would most like it. Others may find things that have bugged them for years is worlds better.. Just like engineering, there will be tradeoffs and decisions need to be made.


P.S. Go tell the high school [Foot|Base|Basket]Ball team that you are complaining because you have to play on two or three different fields with different refs! I don't think they'll have much sympathy for you as they play on numerous fields throughout their season and post-season.

John Vriezen
Team 2530 "Inconceivable"
Mentor, Drive Coach, Inspector

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I think he was more referring to teams paying a hefty registration to pay on the Georgia Dome/Edward Jones dome floor, not a convention center. While it will still be champs, it will feel like a regional just with some good robots on the field!

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

My comment was more directed at those who had been complaining about sensor calibration differences and inconsistent ref'ing due to swapping fields/refs.


John Vriezen
Team 2530 "Inconceivable"
Mentor, Drive coach, Inspector

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

IMO, thats a pretty weak comparison. We already play on different fields with different refs during the season if you go to more than one events. If my high school team got the chance to play in the Championship game at Camp Randall Stadium (home of the Badgers) and payed thousands of dollars in registration, travel and hotels (for the team, family, friends and fans), but found out the game would be played in some park with bleachers set up, I'm pretty sure there would be some complaining, especially if no one knew why the location changed.

Even if you don't consider FIRST teams to be FIRST's customers, you need to understand that FIRST needs us just as much as we need FIRST. They should do everything possible to please us (which I think they are for the most part), because without us, there is no FIRST Robotics.

That being said, I have faith in FIRST to make the Championship in St. Louis just as good, if not better than it was in Atlanta. Of course there will be some changes--some will be for the worst, but others will be for the best.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Are non-profits exempt from detailing what the service/product is? Send us your money and then we'll tell you what you get for it.

Think of each FIRST team as a company that purchases materials and services to market the end product. We choose where to market our product. We choose markets (regionals) based on known value. Teams are purchasing the the known value from Atlanta and expecting at least the same if not better.

The issue is the timing and the lack of specifics.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

We are not customers of FIRST, we are FIRST!


FIRST is a collection of volunteers and participants (for discussion purposes, I'll call it FIRSTUS.) What I like to call FIRST Corporate (FIRSTCO) is that small group of payed folks and volunteers who work to organize things for FIRSTUS.

FIRSTCO will never be able to make everyone in FIRSTUS happy, heck there are still people who want us to go back to the days of Disney.

If FIRSTCO makes decisions about the championship that we of FIRSTUS don't like then it's up to us to show our displeasure. We in FIRSTUS land just need to make sure our complaints are valid and not based on pure speculation.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

College-level FIRST Pilot Info: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...thkey=CM2L9sIG

http://vimeo.com/17484250

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

This is beneath you, Cory, and I can't believe you wrote it. Which emoticon means "disappointed?"

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

That should pretty much put an end to this speculation nonsense. CollegeFIRST, with AERIAL vehicles, and so on, needs 3 FRC fields. By my count, that means they're fitting:

3 FRC Fields (Divisional Dome 1, Divisional Dome 2, Einstein)
3 CollegeFIRST Fields (All Your Base, FIRST Flight, The Best Trajectory)
1 FRC Field sized area for FTC
AND FLL (atop Einstein)

inside the Dome.

Plus: College level-FIRST, including flight? Yeah, I think that trumps 2 FRC fields needing to be in the dome.

EDIT: All that being said, I still think they could have fit it all in. Arrange the 3 CollegeFIRST fields close together in one end-zone, Einstein, stage, and FTC in the other endzone, and 4 FRC fields in between. From what I saw in ATL last year, there was a lot of under-utilized space on the floor of the dome, and my understanding is that STL is actually BIGGER than the Georgia Dome.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Also of interest: The CollegeFIRST documentation I just linked was released 3rd week of March (ie. Week2 of FRC competitions)

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Throw out your long time customers in order to better test a pilot program? Really?

The pit ceilings are MASSIVE, definitely high enough for the challenge to be in the pits instead of taking up half of the Championship.

However, I don't think they kicked FRC out to make room for college.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Championship is the first and only event for College level-FIRST and there are less than 20 teams. As we all know from watching week 1 events, things rarely go smoothly at the first competitions of the season, let alone of the entire program. Are they really kicking FRC teams out of the dome for an untested game with brand new teams? What if they have connection issues? What if the teams aren't really ready to preform (like teams in week 1 FRC events and rookie FRC teams?). Yes, flying robot could be cooler than FRC robots, but waiting for field connection or seeing flying robot not being able to fly is not inspiring at all.

That being said, College-level FIRST doesn't appear on any Championship schedule (or offfical FIRST anything, I think), so I'm not sure that is a valid reason for the change.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

My personal opinion: For a pilot program, they will have chosen the best few schools to compete (WPI?, MIT?), and there will likely be little problem with things not going at least kind of well.

Flying robots seems to me like a great way to get the attention of people walking in off the street in STL.

EDIT: What I'm getting at here, is the teams who will be competing in the CollegeFIRST pilot are likely comprised of people who've competed in things like the DARPA Grand Challenge, and DARPA Urban Challenge.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Robot pedometers? I think an encoder would work ;)

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Honestly Rick, FTC matches are extremely boring this year. Have you seen any? At the Chicago event, teams in the finals struggled to score a single baton, the match was decided by autonomous and balancing. The clips I've seen from other events weren't much better.

VEX on the other hand, that's non-stop excitement :)

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I think what Rick was saying is the FTC students pour as much soul and energy into their bots as FRC students do and deserve the same chance to be showcased on the big stage.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I won't dispute the latter--while my involvement with FVC/FTC ended in 2008*, I can probably safely say there are some FTC teams that pour more energy into their robots and programs than some FRC teams.

That said, there is something to be said for spectacle that attracts attention and coverage from a broader base. FTC can be fun, but it's definitely a challenge to give the smaller field and robots that main-event feel like FRC has been able to develop. It's difficult for me to see a broadcaster bypassing FRC for FTC when saying "Hey, let's put robots on TV!".

In the end, I'm going to go to St. Louis, partake of the raucous celebration that is the 2011 FIRST Championship, and handle the postmortem sometime in May.

*Nothing political about that date of departure; within a month of Championship that year, I was working full-time. Barely enough time to volunteer as a mentor, let alone do extra events.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Some people here seem to be asking or speculating about the size of the Edward Jones Dome compared to the Georgia Dome. Here's some data on that subject:

According to the America's Center Brochure, the Edward Jones Dome is 105,000 sq ft. with the seats extended and 145,000 sq ft. with the seat retracted.

The Georgia Dome website lists the dome floor as 102,000 sq ft. on this page.

So the Edward Jones Dome ranges from slightly larger to much larger depending on whether the seats are retracted are not.

I've heard that the map and full schedule should be out tomorrow so hopefully that will answer some questions.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Most likely they will be using it, as they have in Atlanta for 7 years - for FLL on Thursday and Friday.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

On the latest update from Bill, he says something about being assigned a pit and not changing pits. I've read through this entire thread and I don't recall seeing anything about pit locations or any concern about them. Why does he mention pit locations? Perhaps the reason there are only two fields in the dome is because the pits for those 150+ teams are in the dome?

Think about it. The pits are half the action when it comes to an FRC event. If your championship is supposed to showcase everything about your ever, why not make the pits easily visible to the spectators as well? In Atlanta, if a spectator made their way to the dome to see competition, how many of them actually made their way to the pit as well? Not too many I'm betting..

But if you have playing fields and pits in the same location, you get spectators to see the best of both worlds, and you make the queuing trip almost nonexistent (save for those few matches where you switch).

Now, as much as I like this idea, it also raises a ton of red flags: two sets of pit admin, two sets of inspectors, all-calls in the dome would be difficult (though I could never understand the all calls in the Atlanta pits anyway), load-in and especially load-out would be a nightmare, and on and on and on.

Just a thought.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I think rather that FIRST was getting too many queries about having to move thei pits to correspond with switching fields. The latest confirms that will not happen.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Interesting idea but a few points:

For the last four years that I have been at Worlds there has already been a set of inspectors and admin for all four fields so that wouldn't be anything new. Believe it or not the floor of the dome in ATL has always been a nice quite place, much quieter that the pits in the convention center.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

If the Edward Jones building has a larger footprint than the Georgia dome, then why can't we recreate the same floor plan layout. Is the publicly available seating not conducive to the practiced and prepared setup, which was ideal for the Georgia Dome? I understand that there ae other programs involved, but with an even smaller floor layout in the past, they made it work.

If the only change on the program level is the addition of the collegiate sub-competitions, then my only possible logical deduction is that FRC is being displaced because of it. Not that this correct or substantiated, but this is my best guess.

I understand if this is what they have chosen to do, but I wish they would be upfront about the changes they made and which fields are located where. As far as I know, we have moved FRC fields to the pit, which leaves us with a LOT of empty space. What is going to be in the places where the division fields could be?...

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

What are you? an idiot? nobody laughs that much... that could cause asphyxiation. you need to pause to take a breath. people could take that seriously and try that and end up hurting themselves. plus, people could over work their abs and cramp hard. do you know what one of the most painful types of cramps are? ones on your full set of abs. thats why i use the ab-blaster. it melts away chuck norris' fat, i.e. it can do wonders for taking my keg to a set of 6.
additionally that is not GP at all.

but really, champs is going to be interesting. remember what jon stewart was calling the presidential election race in 2008? take that word and add 2011 FRC championships to that IHMO.

i do like the idea that it wont be as far to travel for teams half of the time but it really takes away from the allure for some teams. my favorite part about championships was being able to play on the floor of the ga dome in front of all of those people exactly where my childhood (and now socially outcasted) hero, mike vick, would play on sundays.

and yes, i admit, i am the performer at champs. wait till you hear these pipes.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Personally, I don't mind the fields being in different locations, however, the switching mid-day is the problem. Teams, like mine, with intricate scouting setups, become all messed up because of this. If i had it my way, i would have 5 Fields in the Dome (4 FRC Divisions, + Einstein/FTC) and FLL in the Convention Center. Obviously, if there is enough room, all 6 in the dome, similarly to the way it was done in Atlanta.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Something I was wondering was that, are they going to be switching divisional names along with the team/field swap? Or will the division winner banners be like Pit #2 Champion.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this:

Dean talked about this at the Philadelphia Regional. The Black Eyed Peas (well, "Will.I.Am and his friends") will be performing in St. Louis. Also, Morgan Freeman will be there. No, seriously.

To preempt any "link or it didn't happen" comments, sorry, it was webcast but I don't have anything archived on hand. Anyone videotape it?

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I'm surprised noone has mentiond this:

“We get what we celebrate and we are celebrating the wrong things.” – Dean Kamen

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Thank you, IndySam. I obviously didn't say it better myself.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

If the fields aren't going to be in the dome then what is?

I'm sure many of us are eagerly waiting to hear the answer to this question.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

One thing I think we're learning from this is how portable the competitions are and how flexible the venue is/can be. I don't know many competitions that are as portable but they do usually deal with the hand they are dealt. Weather plays a part in sports like football and baseball. So do bugs. So do field conditions. I don't know if they could continue their game if it were moved outside of the arena/field, though. So this does show flexibility and adaptability on the part of FRC/FTC/FLL teams.

Here in Austin, we have a rodeo each spring and it's a big deal. A very big deal. At the end of the rodeo competition (a series of different events like calf roping and bull riding), a stage is brought in and a country music star or group performs. So, in this way - the stage is portable, not the competition. This is not the greatest comparison but it is what I am familiar with. What we're doing in FIRST is flip flopping that example - if it is indeed the stage. If it is other FIRST competitions that require the space, such as FTC, then again, we are seeing the portability/adaptability of the competition.

Just some thoughts.
Jane

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I was there for that disaster in 2007. Teams fighting over tubes, knocking over expensive A/V equipment, etc. It was terrible. And if I recall, they even were dumb enough to announce that before Chairman's (if I'm remembering right). I hope something like that never happens again.

Is there anyone who would seriously want this? No offense, but this is just not a good idea at all. Not to be elitist but I've met the general public; I do not want them in my pit area. And especially not the ones coming for no reason other than to get an admission stamp to a musical concert. Interested public is fine; general public absolutely not. One of the things I liked best about the Long Beach regional was the security at each entrance. Made me feel like not just anybody would walk in there. FIRST is not going to achieve its mission by pulling in random people off the street. Bad idea.

The day FIRST offers the public free admission to a musical concert in order to get people to their robotics competitions is the day I walk away and start a VEX team.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I'm not sure I understand your point.

Shouldn't FIRST be requiring the venue to place everything in the dome? If FIRST really wants to emulate mainstream sports events, how can it justify keeping it's main event away from the limelight? In this case, FIRST should be rigid, not adaptable, in requiring all of the fields in the dome, especially FRC.

At the same time, if this is a venue issue, why isn't the venue doing everything possible to appease FIRST in hopes of keeping the event in the future? It would make no sense for the venue to anger FIRST and risk losing the event in the future.

Something I am speculating here, is that two fields are being moved outside of the dome to accommodate the Collegiate FIRST competition. FIRST really needs to ask itself, Is this experiment really worth putting FRC in the back seat a little bit? I don't know. To me FRC is the bread and butter of the FIRST organization, and FIRST is missing out every time it doesn't maximize FRC's exposure.

-Jack

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I didn't videotape it, but I remember that video that Dean played. I know of people who I am close with who know of robotics who are saying they would love to go to Championships just to see him, not for the experience...

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

If FIRST really did move the fields into the pits to make room for a concert, I'm not sure what to think.

I see why FIRST thinks this is a good idea, as a way to get people to notice the matches and think, "hey, that's pretty neat."

At the same time, I think FIRST has their priorities out of order if they aren't putting the teams first, who have done far more for outreach than the marketing department ever will.

If it's the collegiate program, I still disagree with the move, but wouldn't be upset. Though if that was the reason, I think we would already know about it.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I don't see anything on here about whether we are allowed to use the practice field on Wednesday or not...does anybody have any thoughts about whether we are allowed to? I know 316 would like to try and get some time on the practice field as soon as possible on Wednesday...

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Basically, FIRST can do whatever it wants in the interest of FIRST. The FRC teams that are affected will deal with the decision(s).

Jane

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I don't think that's how it should work. What is FIRST without its teams?

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

This year it is what it is and, at some point, we will all find out what that is, specifically.

Perhaps a poll would help determine how folks in CD feel about the fields arrangement in St. Louis regarding the high profile of the Dome and the easy access of the pits. I think we'd find the majority don't really mind but I might be surprised.

Jane

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I wouldn't necessarily mind...

But, I don't know why, so I do kind of mind.

After I know why, I'll be more apt to make up my mind fully. If it's for a concert, yeah, I'll be a bit annoyed. If it's for the Collegiate Pilot, probably not so much. If it's for no reason at all, I'll be really annoyed.

This despite not being able to be at the event.

In other words, I only mind because I don't know the reason behind the move. Once that reason is known, I'll make up my mind whether I actually mind or not.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Oh I'm not worried. It is what it is, I agree. Life will go on, and FIRST will go on, and we'll get used to the new arrangement.

Though there's nothing wrong with wanting to know the reasons behind the new arrangement or expressing genuine concerns, and we all would prefer that FIRST (the organization) stays on the right path.

Perhaps they just want to have a celebration for the 20th anniversary, and will go back to the old arrangement next year. Or perhaps we will end up liking it this way. I can think of several advantages: people in the pits get to see matches. The pits don't feel so isolated from the action. Teams get more time to observe and improve their robots for half of their matches. I've been to CMP twice, and I've always considered the regionals to be more fun in many ways. Having the game right around the curtain at all times might have been why. It does feel more intimate; spectators are closer to the field, and competing teams are often standing around the perimeter of the field, which makes eliminations much more exciting than those which take place in an open dome.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

On the last page of the A-Z Team Guide (04/08 edition)

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

One might ask "Why do you care"? You haven't been on a FIRST team in awhile. It doesn't really affect you.

I'm not meaning to be critical... I'm upset and I'm not attending the Championship either. I'm just curious.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

It's because of the principle of the thing.

Teams pay $5K--plus travel--to play in the main arena at the Championships. (OK, to play at Championships--but you've got to admit, playing on an NFL field, even if it's covered over, is pretty darn cool.) Now they're being told (and note that that's NOW, not 3-4 months ago) that "Oh, we're only putting 3 fields out for FRC this year, the other 2 are in the pit...but we'll make it up to you by making you switch fields halfway through!"

First, that's logistical mayhem. I don't think it could be done in Atlanta--the distances were too great. In St. Louis, they're smaller, but you'll still have a bit of a traffic jam (there are something like 3-4 ways into the dome from the conference area, but I've seen the traffic jam 15K+ college students can create in 2 of those ways at once, while some of them are still at dinner, and a third way at a different time--it's NOT fun to navigate, unless you can use a side route open to volunteers only).

But the lack of explanation is what really gets me. I've had a soccer game moved before--the normal field was rained out. But I knew about it ahead of time, the field change went smoothly, and we all knew the reason. But if that same game had just been moved at halftime, with no reason, even if the move was known ahead of time, I think people would be pretty annoyed.

That's why I'm skeptical. I've seen the speculation.

If the speculation about a musical performance is correct, and it takes half the venue for three days to do it properly, then I really won't like the change. (Note: This is only if the musical performance takes half the venue for the full time. Otherwise, I continue to wonder...)

If the speculation about the college pilot is correct, then I won't mind--they need the ceiling and the space to do it right. Plus, it can be a show-stopper/attractant of the public--better advertising.

If it's something like a big water tank in the other half of the venue... Don't get me started on that (L.A. 2008). But that's not a FIRST problem, that's a venue problem, and would probably not be a future issue. That's one that I could probably stomach--wouldn't like, but could take.

As for it not affecting me: Not this year, but if it's continued in future (say I mentor a team in future), and I do go to the Championships again, it will affect me then. The best way to control the future is to do things in the present. As such, if it's a reasonable reason, I can add a voice that says, "Sure, that's OK, let's do it again!" If it's not, then I can add a voice that says, "What Were You Thinking?"

If there were a reasonable explanation that FRC HQ could release, that would probably satisfy me. Even if it was, "We're planning some form of event in that half of the venue, but we can't tell you what it is." Or denying a rumor or something like that.

Or, as I tell teammates on my college competition team: "Well, at least we know for sure that that company isn't going to sponsor us!" (It's not fun to have a potential sponsor not respond for months on end.) I'll take knowing for sure (even knowing that I can't know) over speculation on why.

P.S. This is the first year since 1999 that I haven't been to at least one competition, either as a spectator, a team member, or a volunteer. My folks are still involved, too. That's 11 years of 1+ competitions/year, and only 6 of those years were with a team.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

The floor plan for the America's Center specifies a "Contiguous ceiling height of 40ft" within the exhibit halls. I see no reason why any 16ft tall college FIRST event would not fit in the exhibit halls.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

[sarcasm]Eric! What's wrong with you? Are you letting school get in the way of your education?[/sarcasm]

You, my friend, are a good example of why FIRST at the collegiate level might not be such a wonderful idea. There's no need to change your perceptions about seeking a career in science, technology, engineering or math. Just completing the course of study and projects to obtain a degree are more than enough challenge. Finding time and money to participate in a program outside the mainstream for graduation is probably not going to happen.

Maybe FIRST Collegiate program targets individuals who are "undecided" as freshmen or sophomores. If decide to pursue a technical degree, they probably won't be looking to do FIRST anymore (or at least until they graduate). Will professional engineering mentors jump into an environment with college students hell-bent on making their own ideas work? Doesn't seem like a good "risk-reward" trade to me. Maybe this is an orthogonal FIRST where mentors aren't needed or even wanted?

I don't even know how to think about the financial aspects of this program. Most college students are broke and their parents usually struggle with the costs as well. I don't think college students are going to do fund-raising or beat down doors of corporate leaders for support. Universities themselves are under tremendous financial pressures as well. Where is the market??

Ugh...

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

What, you're telling me you didn't enjoy the fact that American Gladiators had taken up half the arena and part of the parking lot? *tongue in cheek*

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Since it has been one week since the last update on Bills Blog, I suspect that details are still in flux.

FIRST, You have every right to change the big show, but please keep the community up on the details. We will understand.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Nick, I was thinking the same thing, and the only reason I could come up with is that FIRST wants to display the Collegiate Pilot in the most visible place possible for some reason.

But, I still think it should be in the pits, considering that it's a pilot and there are only 20 teams involved...

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I wonder about the idea of a musical act taking up half of the dome, especially when you consider the Black Eye Peas can put up a stage, do a show, and take down the stage during a 30 minute Super Bowl halftime.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I was at the Buckeye Regional and they announced on Saturday that Will.I.Am and/of the Blackeyed Peas will perform in St Louis. (It was kind of hard to hear, so I'm not sure if they said "of" or "and.")

This is a reply from Steele Meetings when asked about details for the Finale party. "There is no cost to attend the finale party this year. We are still waiting for the final details, however, the entertainment will be open to the FIRST community and there will be concession sales for the food & drink. There should be additional details announced soon."

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

No free food the wrap party this year?

From a chaperone/mentors point of view It would be nice know this so the students could plan for this.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Agreed, this just continues to show the lack of communication coming from FIRST right now. Some information would be better than no information. Give me the details you have so we can plan better.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Considering it was $40/ticket just to get into the wrap party in previous years, I wouldn't ever call the food "free". They typically rolled the cost up into whatever hotel room you booked through Steele Meetings. Though I do see your intended point (bring cash).

I do agree -- if it's announced at ONE regional, it needs to be sent out to everyone.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

I second the agree

::slamsheadinwall:
::slamsheadinwall:
::slamsheadinwall:
::slamsheadinwall:

pain pain pain, but it could be worse? it could just be one field... that would be a pain to play on with more than 300 teams....

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Thanks! didn't see that at first.

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

New Update.
http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2011...s-ticking.html

They listened to us a little bit. Now teams will change fields at the end of the day on Thursday and then again on Friday. No switching during the middle of the day. This is a good change, however if you happen to be in Newton or Curie you will play 2 out of 3 days in the Pits.

Still hiding the big plans for Friday and Saturday night....

Re: Bills Blog - Champs info
 

Wouldn't around the same number of matches be played Friday as Thursday and Saturday combined? That would balance out the pit vs. dome time pretty well, no?

Seems logistically better than before. Still hoping there is enough seating in the pit field areas to accomodate teams.