Originally Posted by Wayne TenBrink (Post 1055371)

I am not convinced that this is legal.

I understand that your minibot provides all the energy for vertical movement - no energy comes from the hostbot. However, there is more to Rule <G19> than just where the energy comes from. It also requires all such energy to be provided "after the start of DEPLOYMENT". Section 1.6 of the game manual defines the start of DEPLOYMENT as the moment at which the minibot first crosses the vertical projection of the tower base (not when the clock reaches 10 seconds, and not when you press the "deploy" button on the control panel). The "blue box" advisory on <G19> states that "Energy for vertical movement may not be stored in the MINIBOT before DEPLOYMENT". It provides an exception for "incidental kinetic energy stored in the motors or wheels, but NOT, for example, in a flywheel". Nearly two weeks ago, I posted a question on Q&A asking whether the self-generated horizontal kinetic energy in a minibot prior "DEPLOYMENT" would be considered "incidental" (therefore legal) or "stored" (therefore illegal). Clearly, the minibot benefits from it. We were considering this approach and were trying to get clarity before the Championship. My question was not answered.

There is another Q&A topic regarding this issue. The response has been interpreted as an approval of ramp-style deployment, but the question is conditioned on "after deploying the minibot" and the answer also includes the phrase "after the start of DEPLOYMENT". Perhaps we just understand deployment differently.

Originally Posted by Wayne TenBrink (Post 1055370)

I am not convinced that this is legal.

I understand that your minibot provides all the energy for vertical movement - no energy comes from the hostbot. However, there is more to Rule <G19> than just where the energy comes from. It also requires all such energy to be
provided "after the start of DEPLOYMENT". Section 1.6 of the game manual defines the start of DEPLOYMENT as the moment at which the minibot first crosses the vertical projection of the tower base (not when the clock reaches 10 seconds, and not when you press the "deploy" button on the control panel). The "blue box" advisory on <G19> states that "Energy for vertical movement may not be stored in the MINIBOT before DEPLOYMENT". It provides an exception for "incidental kinetic energy stored in the motors or wheels, but NOT, for example, in a flywheel". Nearly two weeks ago, I posted a question on Q&A asking whether the self-generated horizontal kinetic energy in a minibot prior "DEPLOYMENT" would be considered "incidental" (therefore legal) or "stored" (therefore illegal). Clearly, the minibot benefits from it. We were considering this approach and were trying to get clarity before the Championship. My question was not answered.

There is another Q&A topic regarding this issue. The response has been interpreted as an approval of ramp-style deployment, but the question is conditioned on "after deploying the minibot" and the answer also includes the phrase "after the start of DEPLOYMENT". Perhaps we understand deployment differently.

Originally Posted by Wayne TenBrink (Post 1055370)

I am not convinced that this is legal.

I understand that your minibot provides all the energy for vertical movement - no energy comes from the hostbot. However, there is more to Rule <G19> than just where the energy comes from. It also requires all such energy to be
provided "after the start of DEPLOYMENT". Section 1.6 of the game manual defines the start of DEPLOYMENT as the moment at which the minibot first crosses the vertical projection of the tower base (not when the clock reaches 10 seconds, and not when you press the "deploy" button on the control panel). The "blue box" advisory on <G19> states that "Energy for vertical movement may not be stored in the MINIBOT before DEPLOYMENT". It provides an exception for "incidental kinetic energy stored in the motors or wheels, but NOT, for example, in a flywheel". Nearly two weeks ago, I posted a question on Q&A asking whether the self-generated horizontal kinetic energy in a minibot prior "DEPLOYMENT" would be considered "incidental" (therefore legal) or "stored" (therefore illegal). Clearly, the minibot benefits from it. We were considering this approach and were trying to get clarity before the Championship. My question was not answered.

There is another Q&A topic regarding this issue. The response has been interpreted as an approval of ramp-style deployment, but the question is conditioned on "after deploying the minibot" and the answer also includes the phrase "after the start of DEPLOYMENT". Perhaps we understand deployment differently.

Originally Posted by bdon2751 (Post 1055396)

Just saying Team 2751's mini goes up in approximately 1 second not counting about a 1/3 second deployment. We also deploy automatically at 10 seconds. Look us up on Youtube our username is frc2751. See you all in St. Louis.

Originally Posted by skimoose (Post 1055394)

Our deployment is legal and follows designs already used at several regionals. The minibot has no stored energy other than the battery. The ramp imparts no energy prior to, during, or after the start of deployment. The only benefit to the ramp is that the minibot is allowed to accelerate without the need to overcome gravity immediately. More importantly, after numerous prototype designs, we feel it is one of the most reliable ways to deploy the minibot as it is already in contact with the pole via the ramp extension.

Originally Posted by kaliken (Post 1055407)

wow glad someone brought this up. I was just going to start a thread on this. So I will at least try to keep this discussion alive.
I hope to not be offensive but I want to point out a couple things I see.
First off I do not see how you can say that your minibot has no stored energy other than the battery. If we take the state of you minibot a split second before deployment starts(crossing the vertical projection of the tower) you cannot say that your minibot does not have kinetic energy inside it. Especially since the minibot is moving! This is the problem I am having.

I have no problem with the ramps as it was something my team was also planning on doing. However we were a bit nervous on the ruling and did not want to get an illegal ruling especially at champs

Given that, my interpretation is that a minibot that starts deployment from rest and goes up a ramp should be deemed legal (see 1678's ramp+minibot video) and is an elegant solution to the problem. whereas a minibot that starts accelerating before the start of deployment and has kinetic energy stored in it to go up a ramp should be deemed illegal.

Finally the incidental motor+ wheel kinetic energy is just that, motor and wheel. This means that that kinetic energy is not contributing to the kinetic energy of the system.

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1055408)

That combined with the number of high profile teams that have competed with this system so far means it's not going to be made illegal at champs.

Originally Posted by rsisk (Post 1055440)

Boy I sure hope that's not the criteria for determining legality.

Originally Posted by rsisk (Post 1055440)

Boy I sure hope that's not the criteria for determining legality.

Originally Posted by kaliken (Post 1055407)

First off I do not see how you can say that your minibot has no stored energy other than the battery. If we take the state of you minibot a split second before deployment starts(crossing the vertical projection of the tower) you cannot say that your minibot does not have kinetic energy inside it. Especially since the minibot is moving! This is the problem I am having.