pic: Bills Blog - Bleachers in pit
 

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So uh... will that even fit the number of scouters that will be in each division?

Edit:
Nope. this is a joke. This wouldnt even fit the North Carolina Regional (Aprils Fools was quite a while ago)
FIRST is just pulling a fast one on us.

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*facepalm*

Thank goodness I'll be on the field!

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Looks smaller than my high school gym! Glad I won't be there this year :D

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Now I know what they meant when they said the pit fields would be more "intimate." They meant people would be crammed in like sardines in a can.

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Wow... that is small... I'll just find me a scouting spot, post up, and make the best of it :)

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Hopefully there is a mirror set to be on the other side of the field otherwise, good luck pit/dome/pit teams =]

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good thing we're driving #notasardine

newton = intimately close to everything
Newton Teams: "I can see my field and pit from here!"

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I think Bill and I have different definitions for "intimate." ;)

I am still holding out for some "Pit Fields" viewing areas in the dome...

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...should've came to Indy...

If this is seriously all the bleachers that they are going to bring into these pit fields, this is absolutely rediculous. What do they expect teams to do with 20+ kids? Also, I foresee teams saving seats becoming a huge issue if no more seating is added.

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Seems to me that this is ONE SET of bleachers. Each pit field has TWO SETS. That being said: I still dont think its anywhere close to enough seating. From my experience last year, Curie took up 4 entire sections of the Georgia Dome's lowest level seating.

My numbers work out to:

86 teams/ division X 20 people/team = 1720 people to seat.

1720 people X 24" seat width = 3440 linear ft of seating required.

assume rows are 2.5' deep = 8600 ft^2 of grandstanding required.

Each field has 2x 115'x32' bleachers = 7360 ft^2

8600-7360 = 1240 ft^2 short

1240 / 2.5 ft = 496 linear ft of seating short

496 / 2 ft = 248 people per field without seats.

That's before you start counting walk-in spectators, and assuming the average number of people per team is 20. I would not be surprised if its higher.

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Any one else notice the "Pit Map" is gone from the Championship Event Site? EDIT: Apparently someone did notice at the same time
It used to be there with not link but now it is gone. I hope the Load In Map with its fake team numbers is not serving in place of a Pit Map. They kinda have to have one right, or else what will Pit Admin use?
I hope they get one up by tomorrow, I want to print some color copies so that I can give them to our MOEbile Pit Crew member to help find teams.

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It's going to be very loud. The noise from the pits and the competition is going to bounce around the concrete like a ping pong ball.

I think there will be an increase in running to and from the pits - due to the straight shot to the field. It will make teams think they can make a really quick trip there and back again. Then again, the space between could be jammed with people.

Crowd control may be another issue. There will be a lot of people that want to stand around the field. Lot of people. That, too, may be impossible to control. This problem also blocks the view of many of the rows in the stands - and people may get mad.

My thinking is based on a regional I have attended and volunteered at. The concerns that I am expressing were all a part of that regional. It was well run and fun but all of these things were present and worrisome. I'm hoping that all of these concerns that I'm sharing have been addressed and will be managed well.

Jane

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This is ridiculous, I have a feeling I'll be using my teams media pass because I don't think I'll have room to record in the stands.

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BBlog of 6apr states that teams will be assigned a pit on Wednesday. Seems to mean no pit map this year.

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At least the load in map is still there so you can still have a general idea of where to go before you get there.

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there is also a wider coverage map in the FLL section showing them their route to the dome and Einstein. It's a smaller scale (less details) that includes a lot of the dome floor, including the strange item at one end that reminds me of the solar reflector diagrams.

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Thank for pointing this map out. I don't think the best location for Einstein is along the short (end zone) side of the Dome floor. I think it would have been better if it was at the FRC 2 field spot.

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I'm sorry, but are people REALLY still whining about this??

These bleachers are EASILY three times as large as the bleachers that were provided for the Epcot setup back in 97-01 (at least the years I remember there)- and there are TWO SETS. Back then there were 300 teams, and IT WORKED. The fields were lain out in tents in the Epcot parking lot. Some fields were close to your pit, some weren't. Every team got a chance to rotate to the large Einstein stage, and everyone had a GREAT time. I remember watching my team on those super tiny fields sitting on those super tiny bleachers, scouting & cheering, and it worked just fine. I liked that we were able to get so close to the robots and the field, it was much easier to see what was going on than it was in the Georgia Dome.

I know people are naturally resistant to change, but please please stop with the negative attitudes and just figure out what we can all do to make this work. I'm sure it will be every bit as exciting.

I've told this story before, but my very first year in FIRST, there were two fields on a single stage IN Epcot, and roughly 50 teams at the championship. It was incredibly small in comparison to what it is now. But I remember watching the Harris Tigerbolt team in awe, seeing them win the whole thing, drooling at their gorgeous & efficient robot. I was no less inspired because it was a small stage or not the grandeur of the Georgia Dome.

Get over it and lets go have some fun!

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So what is that, 10 rows of seats, maybe 12? At Kettering, they had 8 or 10 rows on one side of the field, 4 or 5 on the other, plus a section of bleachers on one end zone. Say 40% more rows at St Louis - that's being generous.

From the pit maps, the total length of the bleachers at St Louis may be somewhat longer than those at Kettering. (I seem to recall 115', which would make the bleachers a little more than twice the length of the field.) Say 40% longer, again generous; it ignores the extra bleachers that Kettering had on the end.

1.4x1.4=1.96 - 96% higher capacity at St Louis than at Kettering.

But Kettering was crowded for 38 teams. With 86 teams per division, the crowd should be about 125% larger. But the bleachers aren't 125% larger. I suggest that these bleachers will be at least 15% more crowded than the ones at Kettering were.

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Michigan teams will be happy, this looks just like a district setup. :rolleyes:

If I were going to the event and ended up on one of these fields I think I'd spend less time complaining about the size on Chief Delphi and more time figuring out what else I can do at Nationals to pass the time.
It's more than just FRC! There's FLL, CARD, action in the pits, companies to talk to, great people on other teams to meet. If you plan on spending all of your time in the stands, you're waisting your trip.

Would you rather just stay in the hotel and watch the matches online for scouting?

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No.

Which raises another question: Will there be a power drop for teams to use for scouting equipment (laptops, video cameras, etc.)? I imagine it would be possible to run an extension cord beneath the bleachers to the nearest outlet and allow nearby teams in the stands to split off of that. However, such a setup may cause a safety issue for some depending on how many wires there are and where they're going.

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No, you're scouting. Watching online makes scouting VERY difficult, at least partly because the camera people love to insert driver's station views and lots of film of the one or two robots that flipped 30 seconds into the match.

I planned on spending a good 75% of my time in the stands, and usually spent more, when I was scouting. The remaining 25% was typically on Thursday (practice day, for those Michiganders that haven't been to a regional event).

I'm certain the pit-field seating will work itself out; how crowded it gets will be a function of how many scouts there are and how big the playing teams are. (Hey, idea! Finally, the scouts get their own section! Just take a portion of one set of bleachers!)

I think the complaints are more over the fact that there are two fields in the pits, when there's a ton of space in the Dome that's being used for ???????? event (which everyone is figuring out is some form of concert). A concert at a robotics competition that displaces the robotics competition has the potential to turn into a robotics competition at a concert.

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Nope. At least I'm not... I am, however, hoping that the event will really do a lot for FIRST. If there is a good reason to reconcile taking half of the dome, okay. This is NOT going to change how I enjoy the event. I will still have a blast. IF it is very crowded, I am concerned for the people that are not normally a part of FIRST. Problems are usually blown up on CD. That's kinda the nature of internet forums. My life will go on, and I will still be watching 90% of the qualification matches on Curie for scouting.

All in all, really excited. Been in "adverse" situations before in FIRST (I was at the crowded EPCOT center too). We will see how much our concerns are warranted thursday and into friday.

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This seems really really small. There are regionals larger than this.

Just my $0.02.

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Not going to CMP this year, I'll have to rely on everyone's word who goes, however, I know if I WAS going, I'd be hopping mad if 2 FRC fields have been pushed out of the dome for the entire weekend in order to make room for a stage for a show that will be for a few hours on friday night.

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I think it's a good idea! I would certainly be up for it.

My thoughts as well. You just articulated it a lot better.

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You do that, and let us know if you get any scouting data worth keeping.

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This is the most difficult form of scouting. You can't really get a grasp of what the teams are like by scouting via the internet. You can get a very general idea, but nothing precise.

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Ooo, they're even the laptop-munching style of the Waterloo bleachers.

I counted 15 rows in the picture. Depending on size, that may effectively only be 7.5 rows because people often put their feet on the seats for the next row down.

Positive thoughts:
At Atlanta CMP, the slope of the seats were so shallow that a single person standing up in any row ahead of you could block your view of the entire field. If these have a slope similar to the waterloo bleachers, that will be a thankfully much-reduced problem. Remember the passionate "SIT DOWN" shouts/chants of years past, and be thankful those may be reduced this year.

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By my count it is 16 or 15 rows. It is hard to count because the benches are still missing from many of them (top left corner seems to be the only complete spot).

If that is the case, it is about the same number of rows as Chesapeake Regional and it seems to be maybe 10-20% longer (I am guessing based on the Load in Diagram). Chesapeake had 60 teams and was a little tight (not Drexel DAC tight). I expect Champs with 88 teams will be a tighter. This is also due to average teams sizes being greater (another assumption on my part, but I don't expect many teams to have ~ 10 members).

Will it be cramped? Yes, especially Sat. Will you have to sit where there is space instead of with your team? Quite possibly if your team is big. Will scouting be inconvenient? Probably a little more than usual, especially if you have a lot of materials (files, computers).

However, it is a bit overblown and Bill posting that pic of incomplete bleachers (which look smaller) doesn't help. It would be nice if the field was there for size reference. I think that support for the lights (metal thing on the floor) is usually the length of the field, so maybe that is a reference (bleachers are significantly longer).

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I think the biggest problem is going to be volunteers, media, team members, etc all standing around the field. The first handful of rows are going to be effectively unusable with a bunch of people standing around the field.

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This just may be the angle that we are looking at. We can't see the entire area so it may look smaller than it actually is.

Jane

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To those comparing it to a Michigan event- those also cost 5000 for two events, 500 for an extra on top of that. This is 5k plus travel for 1 event.

Comparing it to Epcot is pointless because back then I doubt there were so many teams with 30+ students.

Very glad I'm not going to Champs this year!:p

The "suck it up" attitude doesn't always work and the members of FIRST have the right to whine about it all they want.

+0.02

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Guess we shouldn't scout and kill our chances at winning a world championship. We wouldn't want to waste our trip by actually trying to win a competition.

I know I never have 'time to pass' at the championship. If anything, I wish I could clone myself a couple of times to experience everything.

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We are looking forward to competing with the teams at the Championship, but we are definitely not looking forward to all of the red tape. Setting aside teams who wanted to (and believed they were paying to) compete on the Dome floor so that a popular entertainer can perform for a couple of hours is indicative of the culture shift in first - toward "promotion" and away from education. It's sad.

The "secrets" and "surprises" are a problem. Whoever decided that it was a good idea to wait until the last minute must not have to communicate with parents, teachers, and administrators and take full responsibility of dozens of kids and their whereabouts every moment for days. (Again, it seems that FIRST has forgotten that schools and students are their main audience and support - not politicians and concert-goers.)

Luckily we are a local team, so we can see what happens Thursday and let parents and teachers know what to expect on Friday.

Regardless of all of this, we will be happy to see the other teams starting tomorrow night! We'll set aside the frustration for now and be excited about the fun to be had this weekend. Then we'll make decisions about the future of our program after this is over.

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I agree with Akash. This is something to complain about because teams want to have the experience of going to the main dome floor and competiting there. This is FIRST not a rock concert guys.

+0.04

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Well, the truth is that the divisions in the Dome will have that rock concert feeling/appeal. The divisions playing in the pits - won't. Some folks are really going to like the easy access to the pits and the intimate appeal. Some folks are really going to like the rock star and arena appeal.

(I know you were talking about the area taken up by the actual concert but - the visual of comparison is too great to be ignored.) Personally, I'd like to see Curie get that rock star status.

Edit: And... which area of the venue is going to get the media's attention?

Jane

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reminds me of when the championship was held at EPCOT.....

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Whole lot of negativity. If you tell yourself you are going to be crowded, you likely will "feel" that way. If you believe something will "suck", there is a highly likelihood that this will be true.

If you have some constructive criticism or ideas, now is a good time to try those exchanges. For example:
Having dealt with bleachers like these before, there is an unfortunate side effect of the lowers rows... STANDING. As a team that has been "In trouble" for standing, it will virtually be necessary for many matches if you want to see your team compete. In order to reduce the rudeness, our team gathers into a column like format. Taking a slice at the district competitions we have been to. This vertical slice ensure that for the most part, you only get in the way of "your" people. I would also suggest taking more of a corner so as not to block the side to side viewers.

Ideally the bleachers need to be on some risers. Especially the side behind the FTA tables (assuming there is a side behind FTA tables).

Overall, I am pretty certain they will not be cancelling Fridays festivities, and so we are going to have to play the cards we are dealt. My suggestion is to make the best of it. Pay attention for opportunities, and then craft a well worded letter if it really is as bad as you expect it to be.

Any other ideas on how we could handle scouting and make sure they get the priority they deserve? My team utilizes around 7-10 scouts. At certain venues we have had to "remote" the scouting crew in order for them to get good observational positions. Would teams be in favor of splitting up their teams in order to give scouting a priority (middle upper sections with no standers in front of them)? This is likely a foolish idea as it would take 80 some teams to agree on the strategy, and only 2-3 to render it a useless strategy. Thoughts?

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So the FRC Championship matches are relegated to some makeshift bleachers in the pits to make room for a pop music concert. The core message of FIRST is to teach young people to celebrate the right things, to change pop culture to focus on what is really important, to help society set the right priorities. I hate to say it out load, but the irony of this is so powerful that I cannot help but feel that FIRST has temporarily lost sight of its own message. I welcome and am grateful for the support of the Black Eyed Peas. It is fine to try to incorporate and leverage their support into the Championship event. But to literally displace the fields and matches and scramble the competition that is the very purpose of the event, that seems like a perfect example of being enamored by pop glitter and allowing it to come before what is really important...exactly what we are asking young people to resist doing.

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Couldn't say it any better, kudos

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Guys,
I think you need to look a little closer and get a sense of scale. Only part of the one side is assembled. If you look closely you will see support structure for more seating and a lot of hardware still in piles. Remember that the bleachers will occupy both sides of the fields. The only correct note is there is no backs to the bleachers.

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This is highly unlikely, as you suggest, it is very possibly a safety issue (and in many venues as we found out - Boston & WDC - a union issue). We've devised a power setup that runs 7 laptops off of 3 marine batteries, but its bulky and heavy. I'm actually wondering/hoping we can put it under the bleachers so we take up less space with our setup.

EXCELLENT Advice, I was going to add the constructive criticism idea to my post, but thought maybe my ideas *might* reassure people. I guess not.

As for the scouting thing, unfortunately I think you are right, I think we are going to have to all deal with it individually, do our best to take up as little room as possible, and find what areas work for each of us. I will bet anyone $20 that no one has trouble making room for their scouting teams. During Eliminations I'm sure it will get very tight, but at that point only 24/88 teams really actually "need" seating.

I think if every team does their best to send their scout teams early to setup we can all make room for eachother. We will have to be cognizant of not "oversaving" space. It would be great if FIRST would allow teams on the field standing room by the field where their team members could watch... I think this would alleviate a lot of the seating issues, as many just want to come watch their match then go do other things.

Be careful, this is all STILL speculation. Even though FIRST has now announced the Will.i.am concert, we still have NO confirmation as to why the decision was made to move the fields. Looking at the photos in Bills blog, for some reason, that Dome seems to look a lot smaller than the Georgia Dome. I know others have done the math, and probably have more details, but there are still plenty of reasons why they may have made this decision. Until we get there, or until they say otherwise, assuming they "pushed us aside for a rock concert" is STILL speculation. Obviously many others don't, but I still have faith that in general, FIRST knows what it is doing, and often has good reason for doing what they do.

Ahhh.... the entitlement generation...

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Fairly sure that comes from paying thousands of dollars, and working countless hours to attend the championship competition, not a concert.

Most people here are fully justified in their respective grumblings.

my $.02

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Pretty much what I was saying in more in-depth analysis. Great post *gives rep point*

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No offense Kim and although I may seem like I am whining, speculation is over. And it is disheartening to be told one thing for years listening to Dean's speeches and now two fields are being moved for a concert.

Yes, they haven't said the fields have been moved for a reason beside the concert, but they still haven't offered another position as to why they were moved besides that they wanted a more "intimate" field experience and "trying something new". I see the dome floor and I was hoping that FLL and FTC would be expanded as they have been squished, but all I see is half of the floor taken up for a concert stage...... what are we celebrating? What are we sending as our message? What are the rookie teams who are competing in the pits for most of the weekend supposed to think? What is now the center of attention, the robots and students or a stage?

I understand that we may be "whining" however this is really disheartening to see.

Entitlement? Now that is dope.

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Kim,

Normally I'd agree. However, in the layout maps, over 1/2 of the Dome floor space seems taken for what certainly appears to be a concert space. OVER 1/2! The picture in Bill's Blog looks like it's taken from the floor in an area I know fairly well, at about the 1/3 mark from A and D entrances (might be between 1/3 and 1/2). That's why it looks so small. It's taken from the D side, looking towards the A entrance. That grid in the air on the right side is for one of the fields. You're really only looking at a corner of the venue, not an end. The rest of the pictures are in the convention center's halls, or the passthrough between Hall 5 and the arena floor. Those won't tell you anything about the arena area.

There is MORE than enough room for 4 FRC fields, FTC, and FLL/Einstein, and most likely the Aerial Robotics group of teams as well, on the floor of the Dome.

This is really starting to look like L.A. 2008, except intentional. (For those that weren't there: The arena double-booked, so the American Gladiators water tank was in half the arena floor. Pits were cramped and so was the field. Normally, space wasn't an issue--that year, it was.) Hopefully the result will be about the same--L.A. 2009 had 10'x15' pits and plenty of open space (practice field and competition field and machine shop, too).

Edit: I wonder if the theater in the same complex is being used for anything that night...

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Proper hygiene is a good start :)

Teams can't be possessive of "their" seats on the pit fields. If no one's sitting in a seat, it doesn't belong to any team. Team sections will need to expand and contract as team members come and go. Everyone needs to be willing to share.

Kim, from this diagram, it's pretty apparent that two fields were moved from the dome to the pit to make way for the giant stage on the right. If there was a problem fitting divisions + FTC + Einstein in the dome, they would (or at least should) have realized it before they signed the contract and notice would have gone out a lot sooner about the change.

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I never attribute to malice what I can equally attribute to poor decisions. I believe FIRST will do whatever it feels is right. I know FIRST is made up of humans who do make mistakes. I feel this is one of those mistakes. Stating that I am unhappy with how things are playing out does not make me entitled or negative or "un GP" (as someone will surely claim at some point). It makes me a concerned mentor. It makes me a customer who, having spent a good deal of money and time to get to this stage, wants to get a lot of bang for their buck. I want my students to realize that people like Andy Baker are rockstars and are at least as worthy of multimillion dollar contracts as Will.I.Am. I just don't see how the perception of being shoved aside for some pop concert isn't saying that it is more important than the engineers... Remember, perception is more important than intent.

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Others have already responded to this, but the floor of the Edward Jones Dome is either comparable to or significantly larger than the floor of the Georgia Dome depending on whether the retractable seats are out or retracted. I posted exact numbers in the Bill's Blog post that announced the fields in the pit (I think that's where it was).

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wow i can't believe FIRST put the popular culture before their own message. i think we can all agree that FIRST got star struck and decided what it did. no offense to will.i.am or the other people performing, but i would rather half the arena be set off for a mythbusters experiment. that's more on topic than a singer. plus the mythbusters are better in the first place, and would probably have us still have our fields in the dome and take the pit area set aside for the fields instead because they would realize the intention of the event they were at.

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According to the FAQ for the concert, it looks like having fields in the pit area might become permanent:

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Thanks. I apparently missed the map that had the Dome in it (only saw the one with the pits). Personally, I'm still looking forward to not having to walk all the way to the dome every day, but I guess I am one of those glass is half full people.

For those of you that are so outraged, I would highly suggest taking Ike's suggestion and crafting a well written letter/email to FIRST. Complaints here, while often read, do not have the power of direct and well written letters. If enough people are really upset, they will make the change (perhaps not until next year, but they will react).

But for all the mentors out there I would really encourage you to think about what your complaints (now) do for the kids. Are they really going to have a terrible time because one of the days they have to sit on some bleachers in the pits? Or can you help them have a positive attitude, realizing all the amazing robots they are going to get to see, the amazing people they can meet, the presentations, scholarships etc... Its all what we make of it, and the biggest thing that I have learned about being a mentor is that your kids will follow your lead a lot more than you might ever expect. If you have a negative attitude, so will they, and they will likely have a worse time. Do you want to be the reason they have a worse time and a bad attitude? or can you encourage them to go have a great time, and let them make that decision for themselves?

No more CD for me... I'm going to go have a good time this weekend :) See you all there!

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Entertainers/Rockstars/Athletes might get multi-million dollar contracts... but only Engineers get multi-billion dollar contracts.

I wish someone could just ask Bill (or FIRST), "If will.i.am and his friends weren't performing, would all four FRC fields have been on the arena floor?" When you speculate it's really easy to make assumptions, and we all know what those do...

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It seems highly unlikely that FIRST would choose and contract for 3 years with a venue that cannot hold the event. The EJ Dome is a football field dome like the Georgia Dome is.

I'm sure when presented with the opportunity for this concert it was a very difficult offer to turn down, and as I said there is nothing wrong with incorporating Will.i.am's support into the event somehow. I understand the concept of attracting kids to FIRST, promotion, mainstreaming, etc. I'm just saying that defending STEM as our first cultural priority and not allowing the pull of pop culture to obscure our priorities is supposed to be the central idea of FIRST, and scrambling the FIRST Champs to make room for a concert sends the opposite symbolic message.

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As far as the actual seating issue goes, I think we'll manage. We manage to fit 72 teams into a high school gym every summer. Granted teams bring a few less people in average to IRI, but the point still stands. FIRSTers are great at making due with the space given.

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(some emphasis mine)

Jeff,
I know you probably didn't see the details (the few that are shared right now) of the Friday night event before you posted but we shouldn't trivialize it as a pop music concert. FIRST seems to be trying to turn this (and probably other parts of the competition) into a television special. CD has pretty much universally applauded previous TV specials like Gearing Up (PBS), and MSC this year (local ABC).

With celebrity guests, like will.i.am and Morgan Freeman, this could have appeal to a much larger audience than previous efforts. Spreading the message of FIRST through celebrities & TV is in line with the core mission of FIRST from my perspective. FIRST's MO has always been "use the culture to change the culture", for example utilizing the sports model for a robot competition.

Lack of info about the Friday night event is probably the reason it has become such a big deal. I hope Bill will go into the process how these decisions are made in one of the FRC Live shows. I am on Curie, so I have similar concerns about scouting and room, particularly for Elim matches. It is not optimal, but it will work out alright in the end (I like a few others posted here have been to Epcot for 2 years and loved it bleachers and all). If this event turns into a national (or even international) TV Special, I feel the sacrifice of space is definitely worth it. Even if it doesn't make it to the national level, I believe it was worth the effort/experiment this year.

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sigh. While I'm not happy with what appears to be, I have decided (and advise all you as well) to actually experience it before complaining.

Don

Re: pic: Bills Blog - Bleachers in pit
 

As I have said twice, I understand the concept of maintstreaming FIRST, attracting kids, bringing media attention to the event, etc. I am glad for the support of Will.I.am. It is the execution and symbolic priority that concerns me. To me the approach should have been: this will be great and we will incorprate it somehow, but only if it does not interfere with the main prioirty, which is the FIRST competition. Displacing half of the competition from the main venue to make room for a concert screams the message that the concert is more important than the competition. When they put on a big show at the Superbowl, they do not make the teams play on half of a field to make room for it. They find a way to make it happen without interfering with the real purpose of the event.

Re: pic: Bills Blog - Bleachers in pit
 

This should be a lot of fun. Sorry to all teams competing on Gallileo, 548 is bringing around 80 people (students, mentors, and parents). We were so proud of our team almost doubling in size this year (currently at 72 students), now I'm worried most will be stuck standing as close as they can get to the field.

Re: pic: Bills Blog - Bleachers in pit
 

As long as they're not in the pit :)!

Re: pic: Bills Blog - Bleachers in pit
 

We've got a short little clip from one of the pit fields.

https://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!...990 662319846

Re: pic: Bills Blog - Bleachers in pit
 

Sitting in the bleachers now... its not squished... yet. Its filled up pretty fast for practice matches