Re: 2011 Lesson Learned: The Negative
 

Actually, it was a discussion with a basis:
Combine <R01-A> and <R01-B> and you can draw the conclusions that some drew in that discussion. <R48> states that the compressor must be powered through the PDB and controlled by the cRIO if it's an onboard compressor, which added to it.

None of them stipulated "pre-match", "always", or "during a match".

Re: 2011 Lesson Learned: The Negative
 

Off-board compressors also have to be controlled by the cRIO (Using a spike to turn on/off the power and using the pressure switch wired back to the side car).

If using off-board, the spike and pressure switch can be On-board or Off-board but have to be connected to the sidecar and the cRIO has to control them when you want to pressurize. (Think safety).

Yes, I know it's possible to wire the switch to a relay and have that turn off the compressor power. And that may actually be safer than using software to do it. But the way the electrical rules are written this year and prior years this is illegal.

Teams for years have used different batteries when "Charging" and then swapped to a fresh one in the queue line. Unless you "lawyer" the rules (for some reason) there is nothing against doing this.

Re: 2011 Lesson Learned: The Negative
 

When I said pressurizing before the match I meant, when your robot is physically on the field. We did pressurize before each match by tethering. But we had a leak somewhere, so by the time the match started we weren't pressurized.

Re: 2011 Lesson Learned: The Negative
 

I actually asked a FTA and head Referee on one of the fields I was MC'ing on about why teams were allowed to play with illegal bumpers (pointing one out that had a loose cover that was dragging on the floor pre-match), and they simply replied that so many teams had this issue that the inspectors were just letting it go because it did not change the outcome of the game.

Re: 2011 Lesson Learned: The Negative
 

Thanks Debbie! I'm glad to hear it, because this is how our team is supposed to act in the stands. I didn't hear of anyone complaining because we didn't allow them to sit in our section. Our section is always available for anyone to sit in with us, as long as you don't mind a bunch of crazy bees cheering and yelling at the top of their lungs! :)

Re: 2011 Lesson Learned: The Negative
 

One of Al's Inspection Thread post said that inspectors would specifically be looking for saggy bumper covers. I know I would have teams put on their bumper covers to make sure they did not sag. So that was not the policy with all the inspectors.

Re: 2011 Lesson Learned: The Negative
 

Ironically, I received a PM that we were removed from another teams picklist for not sharing seats in the pits.

Re: 2011 Lesson Learned: The Negative
 

It's not all the inspectors. And it's not all NOT the inspectors. :) But as long as you say "...inspection still needs some work." instead of "inspectors need work" then I'm 100% with you. I was an inspector at Curie, but I sure didn't pass those bumpers.

Unfortunately, we're human & don't do everything exactly the same way. And there are a lot of teams to inspect & not that many qualified volunteers that can be inspectors. There were fewer teams/inspector at CMP this year than at any tournament I've ever inspected, but that doesn't mean it was easy.

You've hit on one of my sore points. If a team can't follow one of the most easy-to-follow sections of the robot rules (except for the darn "what does *contrasting color* mean?" question) then one has to wonder what other rules they're not following. I've actually been part of making teams re-do their bumper numbers to comply with the rules, so I know that inspectors do look at the bumpers, at least part of the time. And I *always* have the team put on their covers.

There's another thing to consider -- where are the game penalties for NOT following those rules? Refs could be penalizing teams for dragging bumper covers, but they don't. I'm not blaming the refs for this problem, mind you, but just pointing out that there's more involved than inspections here.

<R85> clearly says that robots have to follow all rules before passing inspection. Yet we consistently see robots not meet that requirement. I've given teams their sticker with corners of their covers needing to be tacked up, with the warning "I'm passing you, but you have to tack those up, and the ref should be penalizing you if you don't." There's not enough time; while it's not fair to everyone for passing them for even such a minor infraction, it's even *less* fair to have some other team not be able to get to their first match because we didn't get them inspected at all due to spending too much time with other teams.

There are so many problems with my last paragraph that I'm not even going to try & clarify it. I *know* that we shouldn't pass teams, but I also *know* that there's more to it than just "follow these rules, exactly". If nothing else, I've learned that from inspecting. And while I'm still *really, really, really* ticked every time I see a robot with blue bumpers with black magic marker letters, I'm a bit more tolerant of some of those other things.

Re: 2011 Lesson Learned: The Negative
 

*polite cough* Not to put too fine a point on it, but ALL teams have this constraint to deal with, and it's directly tied to the safety measures in the control system. Robots start and stay in Disabled mode until the match begins. In Disabled, no power is allowed to any any motors, compressors, servos, etc. That's entirely by design to make sure things are as safe as possible until the match officially begins and everyone's cleared off the field.

Allowing any motor to run during disabled would compromise this, as there's no telling a team has correctly hooked things up so that it's a compressor on that special output and not, say, a CIM on the drivetrain. Thus, motors will always be off at the start of a match, and robots will never be allowed to pressurize while sitting on the field waiting for the match to begin.

So, my blunt advice to you is to suck it up and find the leak so you don't have to worry about it. Think of it as a personal challenge. One that you haven't succeeded at until you can leave the robot powered off overnight and come back the next morning/evening with air still in the tanks. It's totally possible. I know because my team forgot to dump air when we packed up after Lonestar (Week 3) and we still had air in the tanks at the Championship. So if we can hold pressure for 6-ish weeks, I think you can manage to hold pressure for 6-ish minutes.

To help you along in your pneumatic adventures, I highly recommend one of the "Flexible Hose and Tube Cutters" from McMaster-Carr, Page 2324. We swear by item 8288A51, but the safety cutter would probably work too. The main point is to get your tube ends as smooth, flat, and square as possible. Poorly cut ends don't insert well and are a big cause of leaks, right after threads missing teflon tape.

Re: 2011 Lesson Learned: The Negative
 

Kevin is absolutely right here. in addition to the tubing cutter (BTW ... I suggest the mini-cutters) I'd suggest looking for the leak using water, a little hand-dish soap such as Dawn, and a small paint brush. Apply the 'bubble water' to each pneumatic fitting and watch for bubbles to form. Where you see bubbles forming (not just standing) is where your leaks are.

If the leak is too big for bubble-water, you can put the water on your hand and feel around each fitting (just stay away from live wires while doing this). The cooling effect of the leaking air on your hand will tell you where the leak is.

Re: 2011 Lesson Learned: The Negative
 

Actually, McMaster sells bubble forming leak detector as well. In spray form even. On Page 2218. I have no idea what advantage it has over soapy water, but there ya go. And now that today's pneumatics lecture is over, we rejoin your regularly scheduled griping, already in progress.

Re: 2011 Lesson Learned: The Negative
 

Well, I understand completely. Being the naïve student I am, I never even attempted to think of a solution. I just saw, "SO MUCH TUBING HOW DO?"
Honestly, we acquired the leak at competition. The leak was the least of our worries I guess. Seeing as we had can-bus problems for about 8 or so matches. It's my fault I just thought that having the compressors turn on would be a plus. Not griping, it's a suggestion from an unheard student. I have to have some way of showing my opinion don't I? The name of the title is "The Negative" so there would be some griping involved. (maybe I should stop talking)

But from a safety perspective, I most certainly agree.

Re: 2011 Lesson Learned: The Negative
 

Before putting our pneumatics on the bot, the entire system is put in water a bucket of water and pressurized. We then look for the bubbles rising to the top. Then we leave it in there for about 15 mins and come back. If it has lost more than 5 PSI. The leak has to be found and fixed. It is a lot easier to find them in a bucket of water before it goes on the bot then with soapy water later. There have been many years that we have been at competition and had to use soapy water around out jags :ahh:

Re: 2011 Lesson Learned: The Negative
 

I think it was a bad situation to put everyone in at a time when we should be focusing on having a wonderful time. I am thankful we were only in there for 4 matches. I feel really bad for people that traveled across the country to support their teams only to not be able to watch their own matches or play-offs.

I was really sad that my team could not sit together to watch our 4 matches in the stands, but we actually had bigger issues one day in the dome with un-gp in stands. I also know of at least one instance where a parent from my team said something to someone coming to sit.

To eliminate you from picks based on that is their loss in my humble opinion. Sometimes our parents, with the best of intentions, do try to "protect our territory" and the whole seating issue seems to bring out the worst in people. I would hate for someone to penalize my team because a parent who was there solely to support their child was un-gp. Sometimes you have to look at the whole team and not let one individual influence your opinion of a team. Though since it always seems to happen, we do talk to our team A LOT about not being that one person that gives the whole team a bad name.

KB's.. I was SO surprised you were not first pick! You had an awesome bot and I wish we could have played WITH you this year instead of only against you at MSC! Maybe at MARC! :) We've sat beside you at many competitions and have never had issues with you sharing seats!

To everyone: surely with all of this brain power we can find a way to make watching and cheering for our teams easier, more fun and less of a problem. I sure like it when my team can STAND to cheer for our team. But, after the fact, we were told that it bothered people. So, at world's we didn't stand. And, the spirit went way down. There has to be a solution! :) We just have to create it!

Re: 2011 Lesson Learned: The Negative
 

More seating. :)

At at regional, a team stood in front of me almost the entire time. The reason was because another team in a lower tier was standing, dancing, cheering almost the whole time and blocked the view of those first 4 or 5 rows in our tier. There were plenty of empty sections for the team to have selected if they wanted to stand but they wanted to stand there. I moved several times and took a couple of rookie mentors/parents on another team with me along for the moves - to try to stay out of the team's way and to be able to see the fields. It was annoying that the team didn't check to see if they were blocking anyone but it was worked out.

Teams can be very self-focused at competitions. That's what they do. Teams who are generous and aware of their surroundings are not as self-focused and determined to only do what they want to do. That's the nature of the beast. To find that compromise of having fun, celebrating, and being respectful is difficult. Krunch is a great team to watch as a role model for how to celebrate in the stands and do it well.

If more seating is made available next year in the pits area at the Championship event, that will help solve some of the problem.

Jane