Einstein seating: possible solution
 

This thread is a proposition to fix a problem that has bothered me since I went to my first Championship: Viewability when watching Einstein.

I propose the solution of pivoting the Einstein field 45 degrees so it faces into a corner of the stadium as opposed to how it is now.. hear me out.

1. Giant TV/ Suite seating:
-Einstein currently lies directly in front of the big projecting screen and suite seating which is situated on the second level of the arena taking up basically all potential seating in front of the field on the second level.
-Turning the field would allow for three entire levels of seats directly in front of of the field.

2. Surface area:
-Currently, Einstein lies along the flat straight stands surrounding the arena. This ensures that only seats directly in front of the field can completely see what is happening—A relatively small amount of seats for such a large event.
-Turning the field would allow for a larger amount of seats directly in front of the field because of the curvature as opposed to straight/linear seating. In addition the curvature of the field would act as a partial dome around the field (dome seating being the ideal seating situation for a field of this sort) allowing people a much better view even if they are not situated directly in front of the field.

Obviously, there are also issues with doing this.
Thoughts? Concerns? Other Solutions?

Just an idea I had, Bryan

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Here is what I would REALLY like to see for a future championship.

1) Get rid of domes. They're such big caverns that the atmosphere is usually bad, the site lines are bad, etc.

2) Find a convention center next to a 20k-25k seat basketball arena.

3) Put one field in the arena and three fields in the pits (hey, I loved the pit fields - just get more seats).

4) Cycle the divisions through the arena field (thurs afternoon Curie, Friday morning, Newton, etc.) and the rest of the matches on the smaller fields. Remember the old days when they did this at EPCOT? It worked just fine.

5) Awards ceremony and Einstein matches in the basketball area, which would be JAMMED PACKED with spectators. The view would be good, and the atmosphere would be absolutely electric. It would feel like the NCAA basketball championship or game 7 of the Stanley Cup.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

I love this idea.. I could image having a full house of stands filled to the rim.. It just makes the place feel LOUDER!

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Wow that is a really awesome idea. I too was fine with the pit fields and this would make Einstein and playing in the arena so amazing. You could even pull this off in a dome by filling up the field with bleachers considering FIRST is probably already locked into a few years in St. Louis.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Your choices are:

• Greensboro Coliseum in Greensboro, NC.
• Oklahoma City Arena in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma (technically under 20k in basketball configuration)

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

500 miles from St. Louis to Oklahoma City... Maybe to much westward travel?

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

What about Joe Louis Arena and Cobo Convention Center in Detroit, MI?

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

The drive to Atlanta would take our team about 7 or 8 hours. The drive to St. Louis would take our team about 7 or 8 hours.

I don't want to go any farther west. :P

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

I'd be more worried about the other logistics. The OKC airport only services 1/4 of the passengers a year compared to the one in StL. There's no subway or train service, only a bus route for public transit (and that only runs sparsely outside of peak hours).
Greensboro's airport has very few connecting airports and the only major airlines that serve it are Delta, United, and US Airways (no service from Southwest or American Airlines). I have no idea what public transit exists there.

Woops, missed that one due to the fact I was looking at basketball arenas and Joe Louis only services hockey regularly. But I also doubt that Joe Louis would be willing to part with a solid block of 3-4 days in mid-late April due to the NHL playoffs.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Oh, Oh! I know where FIRST can go...Atlanta! Nothing was wrong with the Georgia Dome/GWCC.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

There is actually an arena attached to Cobo Hall, although it only seats 12,191. Good luck getting Joe Louis from the Red Wings :)

However, I think that playing in a convention centre, just wouldn't have the championship feel. Although St. Louis was my first trip to CMP, I felt that the Dome fields felt much more like a championship than the pit fields. This is just my opinion though... I would expect that FIRST will stay with Domes even after St. Louis, but only time will tell.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Cobo Hall would be perfect. The remodeling is going to be under way for the next few years, though. Maybe we'll see this in 2014 or so when it's finished?

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

The only problem I see with this is that there were 20k-30k people in the dome watching Einstein. That means that a smaller dome/arena will be MORE Packed :eek: with less room to move around. That doesn' seem like a better atmosephere to me.


On a separate note, I would like to see opening ceremonies shown on all of the field screens. 10k+ people trying to get from the pits to the dome and then back again all at once in a hury seems like a bit of a saftey hazard. And to think that there could have been a similar situation in BOTH directions is kind've scary.:eek:

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Conceso Fieldhouse, Indy. 18K seats.
http://www.seats3d.com/nba/indiana_pacers/

3 Blocks away Convention Center or of course Lucas Oil Stadium.
http://www.lucasoilstadium.com/Asset...wntown_Map.jpg

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Cobo Hall makes just too much sense! Think about it.
-Greatest concentration of FRC teams in the immediate area. (roughly 80 teams could potentially commute to the event)
-2 large arenas that could hold a pair of fields each.
-The big three automakers (together probably the largest sponsors of FRC teams)
-Some parts of Detroit (particularly around Cobo) are not bad at all, and are actually vibrant urban communities
-No fields in the pits.
-Wings might not be playing there by the time it is feasible, leaving The Joe empty and desperate for events

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

I say the Orlando Convention Center would work amazingly, but youd have those bleachers like they had in the pits this year for all the seating, unlike an arena seating.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Oklahoma City Arena is used by the Oklahoma City Thunder and the NBA would have playoffs going on during late April, so you couldn't reserve their arena.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

And looking at the renovations that are taking place, it is bound to be a wonderful contribution to Detroit!

But as those before me said, the Joe holds the Wings (who won tonight!), and the arena attached only has 12k seats.

Though, logistically, it would be a great location for CMP looking at team concentration.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Most Canadian team would love such a short commute...

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

It would be nice :)

It would be an even shorter trip if they moved to the Metro Convention Centre and Rogers Centre (Skydome) in Toronto :D Only trouble is the Jays play there.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

3 blocks is an awfully long trip between the pits and the field... :rolleyes:

If you moved the Championship event back to the Atlanta time-frame, it would be very possible. The NBA playoffs started on 4/17 this year. The Championships in Atlanta would typically end no later than the 19th. Given that not every NBA series starts on the same day, it could be possible to work around the NBA schedule (agreeing never to have the Championship end later than the 18th).
The NHL playoffs start a week or two before the NBA playoffs, usually. That makes any NHL-related stadiums near impossible to book.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Ah....but still shorter than Atlanta. :D

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

While I can see why a lot of people would wish to have the Champs in Detroit (or other east coast locations) due to the location of many teams, I feel it would actually hurt FIRST by doing so.

I participated with FIRST in Detroit (Team 217), Florida (Team 386) and now LA (Team 294). I've been to the champs in Disney, Atlanta and now St Louis. So I've seen how a region and teams are affected by the location of events.

Having the champs in Detroit or similar would only further promote FIRST in relatively saturated regions that "get it" already. I feel there is a larger potential for FIRST growth further west and am glad to see champs in St Louis.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

I think a lot fewer people watch Einstein than a lot of people think.

The Edward Jones dome capacity is 66,965, which is close enough to 67000.

If every seat was full from the Newton field to the Curie filed (50 yard line to 50 yard line), that would be 33,500. There was basically no one sitting around the corners (i.e. on the sidelines of the football field), which means maybe half of the 33,500 was being used. That puts an upper limit on the spectators at 16,750. I also don't think that the upper deck was nearly 100% full, which reduces that number further.

I would put a high estimate at 15,000 people watching Einstein from the seats, so a 20,000+ seat arena should be plenty.

(BTW, sorry for derailing your thread, Bryan.)

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Also with 360 teams on average having 40 supporters, I still only get to 14,400. I understand that others from FTC and FLL will also be there, but I agree with Chris that 20K is probably a soild upper end estimate.

What was on the Back-side of Einstein? I would think there might be an excellent spot to put the 12 teams actually in einstein in bleachers on either side. This would likely free up a lot of "saved" room in the middle.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

It looked like A/V equipment and a lot of storage. Overall, there was a lot less empty space then at the Georgia Dome.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

I would say Reliant Stadium, Reliant Arena, and the Reliant Astrodome (In Houston) would be much closer and could accommodate more people.

They have done CMPS at the Stadium/Dome combo before, and our regional competitions used to be at the Arena.

I think it is doable. Especially since both venues are HUGE.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Wings haven't missed the playoffs since FIRST was founded, I can't imagine the Arena is going to book anything during playoffs until they are definitely out.

NHL/NBA playoffs knock out the majority of large capacity Basketball and Hockey venues.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

I'm not sure exactly why, but Championship 2003 (the first and only year it was held in Houston, TX), was an absolute catastrophe. I remember hearing something about 'bumps'.

As for SkyDome/MTCC in Toronto, It would be awesome, and doable, however, I seriously doubt they'll ever hold championships outside of the continental US, if only because it simplifies travel plans for the majority of teams.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Any one know if these suites are used to entertain VIPs? There has been no shortage of VIPs at FIRST events, FIRST brings in some big name execs to champs to gather support and sponsorships, these people are used to a certain standard of reception and I would be surprised if that isn't what the suites are used for. I know some one will argue that teams should get seating priority and FIRST should not reduce their experience to raise the experience for a few but I think it is obviously necessary to provided a great experience to VIPs.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

I wandered around the suite level before the matches on Einstein started; it looked like FIRST had done something in them at some point, but they all looked empty on Saturday afternoon.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

This is probably to far west for most teams but the Anaheim Convention Center has a stadium attached that does not have a major sports team. It only seat 9,100 people but the only times this stadium is used is for NCAA basket ball early in the tournament. The great thing is that it is across from disneyland.

So maybe it is not ideal for championships but I thinking if California ever did a state championship, this would be a great place (and probably expensive).

There has to be a few more convention centers like this one around the country with an unused stadium attached. Perhaps a stadium affiliated more with college sports?

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Perhaps FIRST should build its own venue (or 2 or 3).

Jane

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Thats what FIRST could do. Build 3 arenas to the same spec to what it needs to fit CMP perfectly, put one on the East Coast, West Coast, and Midwest. And then have a rotating CMP. Like 2012 would be East > 2013 would be Midwest > 2014 would be West >2015 would be East > etc... And you would try to keep them in line. Like East = Virginia, Midwest = Kansas, and West = California.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

I like the idea, but it looks EXPENSIVE. And, alas, price is the sticking point on just about anything...

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Even so, it would be an awesome design challenge for minds that love to be challenged. It would also be a fun fundraiser challenge for those who love to be inspired by fundraising challenges. To add, it would be fun to incorporate the Going Green concept with respect to recycling, energy efficiency, and sustainability.

Jane

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Perfect - let's give some travel love to New England teams and hold the Championships in Manchester, NH :D

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

NBA playoffs could be worked around if Championship was moved back to the same timeframe as it was in Atlanta. NHL playoffs cannot.

That would do what the rest of the year? Who's going to fund it? Who's going to give up land for it? Who's going to build the infrastructure around it that's needed to support it?

Arenas and convention centers are MASSIVE undertakings. And local governments don't approve them unless they can see them being beneficial to the local community and cost effective. The degres of this undertaking is truly something well beyond what FIRST has ever done.

They would need to find other tenants to share the venue with, design a venue that suits the needs of FIRST programs going forward but is still appealing for other uses, and find a location with the kind of infrastructure to support an FIRST Championship for a long, long time.

And then you ask them to do it in two or three different locations?

It sure is a nifty idea, but it's one that's completely beyond the scope of possibility for this program at this point in time.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Agreed. If the Minnesota Vikings, who offered to put down $300 million dollars to pay for a stadium, which would result in millions of dollars of revenue for the city and state (unlike a FIRST stadium), can't get enough tax payer support, there is no way FIRST will be able to get funding for a stadium, let along 2 or 3.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Think of it this way, Sean. It's a dream. An idea for big dreamers. 20 years ago, did the original teams envision that in 20 years we would be talking about a space crunch for the Championship event? Were they able to envision a dome venue maxed out with fields demands and the space demands required for a big name band?

Even as a dream, isn't it fun to think of a place that would be established by the FIRST program but that others would love to use because of its adaptability, technical prowess and innovation, and awesome capabilities? Yes, that is a lot of fun.

It may be frustrating for those who want to problem-solve with a points system and removing 3rd alliance partners or the RAS qualification. I understand and respect that type of thinking but when faced with large problems, I always see it as an opportunity to dream big. Really big. There is never any harm in dreaming. Heck, I never dreamed I'd be involved in FIRST for as long as I have, much less watching it expand as it has in recent years.

I apologize to our OP for derailing this thread. Please go back to realistic problem-solving and solutions.

Jane

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

That's something the Boy Scouts do for their National Jamboree every 4 years. Previous to 2013, the BSA had the Jamboree at various places within the nation, most recently Fort A.P. Hill in Virginia. In 2013 they are moving to their newest camp "Summit" in West Virginia.
BSA found that it would be simpler to own their own land for such a large event, enabling them to make the Jamboree even better than it already is. There is no reason why FIRST couldn't benefit from the same thing.


It may not be a feasible thing for FIRST to do at this point, but as the program grows, it would make more and more sense to build a FIRST dome for CMP and other robotics events (such as regionals, non FRC events, Vex events, etc...).

Another thing to look at is teaming up with a company/city who is building a dome/convention center to make a perfect FIRST location!

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

You are indeed correct about the Wings chances of missing the playoffs. They have the longest streak amongst porfessional sports for playoff appearences ever (I think, don't quote me on it). However, I was refering to the fact that the Wings have been lobbying for a new/renovated arena for a year or two now. Admittedly Joe Louis Arena isn't the nicest venue in the world. There is a remote possiblility that they could move their home venue from the Joe to The Palace of Auburn Hills if they get no tangible feedback from the city of Detroit.

As for the comments by seveal people that Michigan is the exact opposite of the ideal place to hold WCs. I would like to ask if you are satisfied with a situation where each state has roughly 1 FRC team for every 58,000 citizens. Does FRC only have the chance to grow to up to 5,250 US teams?That sounds like a large number, yet consider the number of secondary schools in the US. There are approximately 37,000 public and private high schhols in America, most of them completely capable of supporting an FRC team. The largest roadblock however is money. Due to the district structure and the concentration of FRC teams within the state of Michigan, Michigan is the closest of any region to becoming the ideal region. If one model region is fostered and grown others will follow. By bringing the FIRST Championships to Michigan I argue that an unprecidented amount of growth would occur across the US and Canada (due to its proximity).

My reasoning being that so many teams exist in Michigan, and Michigan teams are amongst the best teams a starting "mentored" FRC teams (see 3538, 3773, and 3539 as examples) that giving them a resource as great as the FIRST Championship would ony accelerate growth in the Michigan market. The next reason FIRST stands the greated benifit by holding champinships in Michigan is the potential for sponsorship revenue. As a group Michigan is a quite well funded region, however with increased growth comes a need for increased revenue. By placing the CMPs directly into the backyard of many large local corporations, Michigan would recieve the sponsorships necessary to gain more teams.

Under my belief that the US can support as many teams as there are high schools there is room for 1,200 teams in Michigan so long as sufficient funds are available. The reason other regions would benifit from Michigan's growth is this. Government reacts slowly to things, yet it will eventually respond. If Michigan is able to have a total number of teams approximately equal to 350 within several years of gaining the CMP, it could possibly kickstart widescale recognition of FRC by local districts and state legislatures. Eventually school districts will realize it is more worthwhille giving their robotics team 15K than drowning 90k in the heating costs for a high school swimming pool (Monroe Public Schools spends $92,000 a year on swimming pool upkeep, with virtually no revenue sources or educational value in it).

The more teams there are the more visible FIRST is. The more visible FIRST is the more attention it gets. The faster a single region gains visibility the faster other regional gain revenue from the increased visibility of the other region. The faster other regions become visible the quicker these regions gain teams.

Sorry for that extremely long thought, and the typos; I had to do this using IE.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

I live in Greensboro, and have attended many events at our coliseum. I'd worry about trying to host the Championship there. In addition to only having city buses, the coliseum and special events center is much smaller than the Atlanta and St. Louis Centers. I think there are only about 180,000 square feet in the special events center. Furthermore, I don't think there is a straight path from the convention center to the arena; a loading dock separates the two. Maybe Greensboro could be good for a regional championship. However, a natatorium with three pools is being built. If we see anything here, I guarantee you: Water Game!

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Yes, but the Summit high adventure reservation will most likely be used by the BSA year-round, bringing in $$$. Additionally, they got a huge, very generous donation that payed for a huge portion of the initial cost.

Now if FIRST were to be given a gargantuan sum of money, that would at least be a step in the right direction.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Did anyone mention Phillips Arena back there in Atlanta? Seats 18-20k
Wouldn't it be funny to go back to ATL only to use the Arena next to the Georgia Dome? :D
Of course with the Hawks and the Thrashers calling it home, I am sure it wouldn't work.

TOOO Cold!

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

It also doesn't need to be near a major airport, have public transportation service the venue, and have plenty of available hotels in the immediate area. It's a lot easier to get a bunch of land in the mountains than it is in an urban area.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

I have memories of Philips Arena, I went to the first two ever Atlanta Thrashers playoff hockey games in 2007, during Champs that weekend... =D

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Got $300,000,000?

The GWCC alone cost $350,000,000 to build. Granted you're not building the entire thing, but you want to build 2-3 halls of a convention center, plus a dome? That's probably $100,000,000 a pop.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Or you could go with seeing if a college would want a CC next to their basketball arena? Have them use it along with FIRST, half the cost with the college and get some big sponsors you could drastically lower the cost. I mean you could check at like Virginia Tech, Univ. of Kansas, and Stanford.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Just today the Minnesota Vikings agreed to build a multi-purpose restractable roof facility. The total cost: 1.057 billion; $884 million for the stadium and another $173 million for the infrastructure. Obviously FIRST's dream location wouldn't cost that much, but I can think of a better use of FIRST's money.

Re: Einstein seating: possible solution
 

Basketball arenas are really only big enough for one, maybe 2 fields. Most college arenas also don't seat more than 10k.