Re: Is there too much focus on STEM? (Liberal Arts strikes back)
 

I have never understood why it is ok for a politician/leader etc. to admit that they are not good at math... they are not a "math" person... etc etc.

Yet if that same person said they were no good at English... or they weren't literate... that they would be thought of as inadequate and not allowed to be in office or in a position of authority.

Why is math illiteracy something that is allowed ??? I am not talking about the calculus here... just algebra....

It seems that whenever the liberal arts community gets wind of something that will increase the technical expertise of the nation or raise the bar on the use of mathematics in society....they feel threatened....

A well-rounded education should work both ways... if you look at the graduation requirements at most liberal arts colleges... science and mathematics (in particular) are at most reduced to just 1 or 2 courses... and many of those courses (for liberal majors) are NOT the difficult courses... they are designed to be passed relatively easily.

There are many liberal arts majors out there that ARE well rounded..but I would hazard a guess to say that most technical majors that graduate are better writers and communicators than the liberal arts majors are mathematicians or scientists...

Well rounded should work both ways...
Any graduate should be able to do college algebra and use it in a practical way... they should also be able to recognize statistical concepts and be able to look at data in a realistic and skeptical way.

Without these abilities the citizen population can't make informed and reasonable decisions...

Re: Is there too much focus on STEM? (Liberal Arts strikes back)
 

Unequivocally No.

If there was too much of a focus on STEM, there would be an oversupply of scientists, engineers, and technicians in the economy.

In the United States, we all know the opposite to be true.

I've also witnessed many times those who lament the multitude of Americans who don't know the difference between Monet and Manet, but then get hostile when you ask them a basic question about math or science.

But even more important than this, is the need to eradicate the anti-intellectual, anti-knowledge, anti-thinking undercurrents in society. When those who are highly educated and experts in a field are viewed negatively as elitists, there is a major problem. When people believe the that all opinions are equal (for example, when a pundit believes they are just as knowledgeable about a subject as an actual expert), there is a major problem. When people willingly disregard facts, logic, and rational thinking because they "believe" something different, there is a serious problem. When people dislike President Obama because he uses "big words" and "speaks above an 8th grade level", there is a serious problem.

There is nothing intrinsically elitist about someone who is more knowledgeable than you are in a specific field. I will never claim that because I played golf a few times I'm as equally qualified as Tiger Woods to talk about it. I will never claim that because I wrote a few school papers on the American Revolution that I'm as equally qualified as historian David McCullough to discuss it. I will never claim that because I took a marco-economics course that I'm as equally qualified as Economics Noble Prize winner Paul Krugman to determine what's best for the economy.

Re: Is there too much focus on STEM? (Liberal Arts strikes back)
 

Amen brother... Why is it that every politician almost brags about how they don't understand science. Why is it that only 5 of our representatives were engineers? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Members...nal_background) Why is it that when we get politicians speaking at an event they talk about how they couldn't ever do what we are doing? Why is that always greeted with laughter? That isn't funny, that is sad.

I've never understood the trend in American politics to have our representatives as just an average Joe. No, screw that, I want experts making decisions. I don't want a man who ran multiple businesses into the ground making key economic decisions... I want a freaking expert.

Re: Is there too much focus on STEM? (Liberal Arts strikes back)
 

Here's a very recent article (just the first paragraph, actually) about how 8 out of China's 9 top government officials were at one point in STEM-type fields originally. I could post some snarky comment about how you don't need to be XYZ to understand that's a good idea, but I won't. Such comments wouldn't go far anyways, given the rhetoric machines that pump out endless tripe concerning inane social details that prey upon an uneducated voter's every whim.

If we get at higher understanding of math in the common American, then maybe we can change the culture enough so people stop acting upon their impulses by deficit spending in their day-to-day lives. Eventually that will propagate up to the country's leadership. It doesn't matter where you stand on social matters; we need better "numbers people" in charge so we avoid the economic situation we're in. If you don't think the U.S. is in an 'economic situation' or you think it will *poof* go away, you cannot be more mistaken.

The rest of STEM education, to me, is simply a way of creating better general problem-solvers (which seems to be the general consensus in this thread). Sure, we need liberal arts for specialist majors -- but we're running dry on those specialists to begin with.

Re: Is there too much focus on STEM? (Liberal Arts strikes back)
 

An interesting article titled "How to Fix the STEM deficit"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...El6G_blog.html

"The Presidential Award program has slots for 106 teachers, so there should be 21 more awardees: A fifth of the annual awards went unclaimed because not enough science and math teachers at the elementary level made the cut."

Re: Is there too much focus on STEM? (Liberal Arts strikes back)
 

The definition of STEAM as given to be by people in the field has A = Animation.

Re: Is there too much focus on STEM? (Liberal Arts strikes back)
 

While I am all for the focus of STEM programs. The world needs everyone to keep going along. I am an urban planning major, my degree is considered a liberal arts degree. However, on a daily basis I am required to work with engineering and architectural drawings to complete dimensional analysis of them. In addition to looking at things such as corrosion of infrastructure (roads, bridges ,etc) and setup when maintenance should take place. My experience with STEM makes me better understand these issues then most of my classmates. Another point I want to make here is how many majors where calculus is required is it actually used in the field besides engineering. Yes, calculus is useful in figuring out many things for different applications but name me another real world job other then engineering where it has to be used. The reality is there aren't too many. Finally, calculus courses are generally taught by math professors or students who know the math but have no idea how it actually applies to things. This is why taking calculus with a engineering teacher is important, which most college math departments fail to do if you are not an engineering major. Just my two cents speaking from reality inside and outside of academia.

Re: Is there too much focus on STEM? (Liberal Arts strikes back)
 

I keep forgetting to make an on-topic post about this subject.

My answer to the topic is a HUGE NO - there is NOT too much emphasis on STEM today. The problem is that there has been way too little emphasis in the past.

When I was in high school, the graduation requirements were 2 math classes (didn't matter what level), 2 science classes (didn't matter what level), but 4 English classes, plus a literature elective. Don't get me wrong - the English classes were great and I wish more people would pay better attention in those classes, but why did the requirements include 4.5 years of English, and only 2 of math and science?

I don't think the current emphasis on STEM education overemphasises STEM at all - I think it's just finally bringing it up to level that it should have been all along.

Re: Is there too much focus on STEM? (Liberal Arts strikes back)
 

What I find worst about the article is some of the comments. Obviously, the few commenters (6) do not constitute a significant sample size nor is it necessarily unbiased (or truthful) sample set, but for the three of them, one is a science teacher, one went from being an engineer to unable to be hired as a teacher, back to engineering, and the third went from being an engineer to teaching for a short time, to laid off and looking for a job outside of teaching.
I don't have significant contact with people in this area to know if these are quite isolated and rare or if it is a common problem, but it would be quite disheartening if it is common.

Re: Is there too much focus on STEM? (Liberal Arts strikes back)
 

The requirements at a public school (at least mine in Wisconsin) are still like that. It is required to take 4 years of literature and history, but only 2 years of math and science. Obviously those who care about college take 4 years of everything, but I still don't understand why history and literature are required while math and science are not.

Definitely not enough emphasis on STEM.

Re: Is there too much focus on STEM? (Liberal Arts strikes back)
 

Ditto in NY. The only things keeping me from graduating are a single History and English credit, though I've taken the highest level classes offered in each. Heck, pre-calc isn't even required.

Liberal arts has it's place. So does STEM. If anything, there can't be too much push for either - only too little push for one.

Re: Is there too much focus on STEM? (Liberal Arts strikes back)
 

I don't think Dr. Roth was arguing against STEM. He was arguing against focusing overly narrowly on STEM. This quote in particular struck me (from the article):

Wesleyan is a liberal arts school. That doesn't mean it's students all study art, English and history. Wesleyan produces a large number of scientists. I went to Oberlin and a staggering percentage of the members of my class now have science PhDs. I had a math degree, with 44 semester hours in math, 16 semester hours in English, 24 in history, 6 in economics, 6 in government, 12 in physics, 6 in chem, 6 in bio, 4 in geology, 6 in music, 3 in art, 2 in dance, 11 in physical education. And I was not an atypical student.

Roth also points out that one of the most significant trends in scientific study today is the move toward interdisciplinary problem solving. Roth was not trying to get people not to study STEM fields, he was arguing against trying to push resources only into studying STEM fields.

Ask people who hire engineers and programmers what skills they are looking for (which is something I do frequently in order to help my students plan for the future) and the first few things they mention will typically be communication skill, teamwork, problem solving ability and then a few specific technical skills for a particular position. They want the degree and/or experience in the technical field, make no mistake. But that is not enough. And it's really not enough when you are looking to get a promotion.

Re: Is there too much focus on STEM? (Liberal Arts strikes back)
 

I don't think they get these qualities from the classes you take though. I've been through the hiring grind, and so have most of my friends. Outside of your GPA, employers don't particularly care about the classes you take (I was asked for my class list six months after I was hired). They care a great deal about your extracurricular activities, which is where you demonstrate that you can actually apply what you've learned in the classroom and in life to new situations. I was definitely hired because of my extracurricular experiences, and I think I got a lot more out of the time I spent in them than I could have out of a similar amount of class time.

That's not to say some classes aren't worth it. There are specific humanities classes I'm taking beyond what is required because word on the street is that they are time well spent.

Since ABET requires it, all engineers take design classes involving teamwork. I think these are really a sham though, since ultimately most classes include some sort of individual contribution factor. In any sort of real design competition, your team is scored on how well your team performs, and it's up to the team to figure out all the stuff along the way.

Re: Is there too much focus on STEM? (Liberal Arts strikes back)
 

Going back to the writing aspect for a minute, as I wasn't on last night:

Writing is important. Where I'm interning, there are 4 divisions. Two of them that I know about have their own technical writer(s). And at least in my division, the technical writer likes to get engineer input before publishing a given document. Think for a minute what would happen if there wasn't a technical writer doing the manuals, or if the technical writer didn't have a good grasp of proper technical writing.

What I see in that is that the manuals are close to unreadable by your average mechanic/technician. They're inaccurate at best, not understandable at worst. That's why the good technical writer is there. And those that don't know all that much about the system get drafted into seeing if someone who had the system in front of them could understand the instructions... Just to make sure that if whoever has to deal with the instructions can read, they should be able to fix the problem.

At SDSM&T, every student has to take 2 technical communication courses. That's right, two. Writing assignments in those two courses include emails, resumes, presentations, reports, and memos. Having the basics mastered isn't enough to prepare fully for the real world--some specialized applications are necessary.

Off the writing soapbox and on to some other topics:

At least when I graduated high school, the minimum requirement in CA for math was Algebra 1. I don't remember the science requirement; it might be a certain X classes or something like that.

@Ian on teamwork--Yeah, there is an individual contribution factor included at my school. It's in the form of an evaluation: "Should ____________ get the same grade as the rest of the team? Why/why not?" Or, in some classes, there is a "firing" option for a team member who isn't pulling their weight. They then get to do the project on their own for less credit than it was originally worth. In my Mechatronics class, lab groups/teams (your group of 3 was your group for the lab, and team for the projects) were supposed to come up with a team contract with expected team behavior.

On the original topic: No. Not yet, at any rate. When STE(A)M is being emphasized as much as SpLEd* then it's probably time to slow down the STEM push. But until then, STEM needs to be promoted, to the school administrators and the students, the parents and the community. But that has yet to happen fully.

*

Re: Is there too much focus on STEM? (Liberal Arts strikes back)
 

I'm not sure I get where all the dissent with Michael Roth's statements is coming from. He isn't saying people should get degrees in the humanities, he's saying exactly what you've all mostly been saying in this thread:

"Our leaders in government, industry and academia should realize that they don't have to make a choice between the sciences and the rest of the liberal arts. Indeed, the sciences are a vital part of the liberal arts.

The key to our success in the future will be an integrative education that doesn't isolate the sciences from other parts of the curriculum, and that doesn't shield the so-called creative and interpretive fields from a vigorous understanding of the problems addressed by scientists." - From the Editorial

He's advocating well-rounded education of individuals who are passionate about many things. I think he's absolutely right. Great advancements in science and technology and culture (especially in the future) have been, and will be, largely interdisciplinary. Sometimes they span between fields of science and engineering, but they also span human elements. No one can say that a beautiful car is not a great piece of engineering, sure, but similarly, no one can take the art, aesthetics, logic of design, and communication of an idea out of the form of the car either.

I minored in Political Science, and majored in Mechanical Engineering. I had the option of taking more "technical" electives and could have filled those spots with other things that might be more "pragmatic" or "practical" but the fact is that such subjects are places where everyone should look for inspiration. If you are an engineer or scientist and you're only inspired by other engineers and scientists, then something is wrong.

FIRST is For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology, and not "For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology at the Expense of Other Subjects."

In some sense, I think our community is too reactionary about these things. Our job is to bring this stuff back into balance, and make sure that the engineering and technology prowess and passion is there where we need it to be. But it is by no means the only thing we need.

I strongly suggest, even if you are going to school for engineering and you know you're going to be an engineer forever, take some liberal arts classes that force you to think and write and analyze in a way that you don't get to in engineering classes. Do an English class, creative writing, history of the Roman Empire, whatever. Find something outside of engineering and expand your horizons.

I guarantee it will help to make your whole college experience more enjoyable if it is not all engineering and technology stuff all the time. And you will be the better for it, because you'll be able to think like many engineers don't. And when you have to solve an open ended problem like most engineering problems, the more perspective you have, the better.

I think that's the crux of the argument for more well-rounded education. The more different perspectives you can see, the better.