[BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2011...r-weekend.html

Very interesting story about the GP award.

Also, why can't you un-remove that photo?

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

Who would say that to anyone at a FIRST event(or anyone in general) much less an FTA?

Sad.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

Our first tease of the year ::rtm::

But on the note about the GP award, what do most regionals do to determine it? At Philly this year they had paper ballots for teams to fill out(i assume just for input from teams, not as the final decision), whereas at NJ I don't believe there was anything.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

Fixed that for you.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

The Gracious Professionalism is a judged award. The paper ballots you refer to are reviewed by the judges.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

Well I did pick up one thing about the game next year. The game pieces don't seem to be custom made. I am assuming this because BB last year before kickoff kept saying they were looking for suitable game pieces. Sounds to me like this year the game is being made to fit the game pieces instead of the other way around. Footballs?

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

That isn't the first hint for next year, got that a month ago :)

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

Interesting!

Really sad about the swearing in Seattle. Interesting though how they see everything. Taking this one back to my team and really push that swearing at someone or in general should never be tolerated.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

This might very well be possible, but I doubt its footballs.

From what I've seen, there is a pattern where FIRST goes from more complex piece to less complex, with '09 and '08 debatably reversed, and this pattern goes all of the way back to 2001.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

I hear the game piece is going to be WAGO tools.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

There's another long-lasting pattern of alternating between using balls and something else, which works if you don't consider 2009 to be a ball game. Also there's a back and forth between being themed around a sport that goes to 2006(assuming you look at Lunacy as being moon-themed)

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

These would make interesting game pieces.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

2008 was nascar themed, but Nascar isn't what I immediately think of when I think of sports (not that is isn't). Maybe we should look beyond traditional sports and more toward less know sports. I can easily see FIRST doing some sort of game that is heavily dependent on teamwork.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

Curling?

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

Maybe that one game the Mayans played where you had to get the ball through the hoop up on the wall- Oh, wait. Aim High. Sorry ;D

Lacrosse? You score points in goals on the other side of the field, but they (game pieces) can't touch the floor? Maybe every robot on your alliance has to touch a game piece before it can be scored.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

Cricket. That'll also satisfy the longer-game advocates.

On the other hand, regionals will now take 6 weeks...:p

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

Water polo?

I wouldn't be surprised if the game piece is some sort of PVC piece. Our team did an unofficial vex competition 2 years ago where we had to put 10" PVC pipes into a bucket at the end of the field. Endgame was a combo of rolling your bucket to your side of the field and hanging on a horizontal pole that was about 3' off of the ground. I could see something like this but on a larger scale (and with minibots :) )

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

Three comments:

1) They will never do a water game. That is the number one way to decrease the number of rookie teams that come back for year two.

2) PVC pipes were already done by FTC and it was such an unpopular game. baybe it was the execution, but, from what i could tell, not many people were too fond of "get over it."

3) The concept of a water polo game (-water, -full contact-ness) seems plausible, and it would be interested to see it implemented.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

My brother always that they should do something with picking up, placing or moving pool noodles. But not in a pool. That would make field reset nearly impossible.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

The FTC game was TERRIBLE, but I wouldnt blame PVC.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

If they could find a better way to implement PVC than in get over it, then I think it would be a great game.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

2005 used PVC conduit (emphasis on both PVC and conduit) extensively. It was just formed into a nice geometric structure. :D

I've also seen what shattering PVC can do in terms of distance. As in shard distance. So, just keep the PVC from shattering.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

If WAGO tools are the game piece, I hope the game is try to find them in the shop. Can't imagine the robots would be any worse at it that the students are.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

That's so disgusting. I'm not even sad, I'm disappointed and ashamed on so many levels.

1) As stated before, who would say that to ANYONE?

2) FTAs are trained by FIRST. Yes, they're human and everyone screws up sometime, but they certainly know what they're doing.

3) FIRST Teams are supposed to be better than this. Remember our core values? Gracious Professionalism? "Act as if your Grandmother were watching you." Who cares about getting an award or not.... would grandma have been proud of that behavior? I highly doubt it.

I'm glad that FIRST Staff is finally letting us all know that they DO hear what goes on. I'm sad that this ISN'T the first story like this I've heard all season.

Let's work on our behavior, eh folks?

EDIT: & by that I mean, ALL of us. Let's all watch how we speak, and how we treat others, as even in the heat of competition, behavior like that is inexcusable. Let's make sure we're not personally doing it, and let's gently remind others of the same if we see it happen. It'll help make FIRST a better place.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

I think this happens more often than we realize or recognize. By Bill Miller calling the attention of the teams to the rudeness, it provides an opportunity for discussions within the teams and the community.

Any time a team member is rude or obnoxious on our team, we (the mentors) address it. Whether we are made aware of it immediately or we are made aware of it further down the road, we take steps to address the behavior. It reflects poorly on the individual and it reflects very poorly on the team. It isn't something that we want to let slide because it impacts the individual's future and the team's.

I always take the responsibility back to the veteran mentors first and the veteran students and parents second. We haven't done our job fully if we have a member of the team behave in such a manner that they insult a volunteer or an award, itself. Granted, it chips away at that precious time that is so finite during build and competition to discuss team conduct. Some veteran members have heard the drill for years and don't place the topic as a priority. Sometimes, it is an oversight on the part of the team leadership. There are a lot of reasons that the conduct of the team can suffer and damage its reputation. This is a good call on the part of Bill. He's letting all of the teams know that poor conduct is recognized and will not be rewarded. It's good to have it brought to our attention so that the off-season can be used to help mentor the teams in proper conduct and respect.

Jane

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

I seem to recall that in the original version of that game, the penalty for the losing alliance was death. :yikes:

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

Agreed.

I am disappointed that the blog chose to call out the regional where the story took place.

I think it would have been more effective if he had not mentioned the site or identified whether the person was a FTA or contractor or staff or "just a regular" volunteer.

I've seen people act like jerks in numerous locales. The education, whether or not trophies are involved, is an ongoing process.

UPDATE: Jane, our postings overlapped. You are right on.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

Happened already.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=41054

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

I feel discomfort regarding the specific information along the lines that you have mentioned, Jenny. At the same time, because it is more specific rather than generic, it drives the point home.

This is that shade of gray matter stuff, isn't it? :)

Jane

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

I have to agree that swearing at someone is unnecessary and only reflects ignorance on your part. However I do think swearing has its place. It can be used to make an environment feel less formal, and actually more inviting. Also when used in certain contexts and sparingly it certainly can aid in humor (especially when you're not expecting it). I think swearing can help lighten the tone when people tend to take themselves a bit too seriously (FIRST definitely having that vibe from time to time). Also I think there is an age appropriateness that comes into context. Swearing in front of freshman has a very different effect than swearing in front of seniors.
I would point towards Gary Vaynerchuck, Cee Lo Green, and the immi-children's book "go the f*** to sleep" as two examples where swearing is used effectively.

Basically swearing is like a lot of other things, if you're not smiling when you're doing it, its probably wrong.

To anyone who swears at another out of anger, "You don't ****ing know what you're doing" :)

A more serious question, if someone acts like that on a team, and brings them down and refuses to change, should a team and FIRST abandon that individual simply because they do not approve of their behavior. I think this reflects juvenile detention methods to an extent, where it is not so much about rehabilitation but rather punishment. By FIRST outright saying that it punishes a whole team because of one individual's words, is it in a way saying that we should abandon those who pose similar risks to our teams, to further our own chances. I think there are some real dangers in conveying a message like that. The fact is teams cannot control how everyone is going to react to a situation, and the only way to outright avoid a situation like this is to ban anyone who may act like that from a team. The kid was an idiot, I don't disagree, but I think that a team's GP is not directly linked to a single action by a single individual. Maybe its just me but FIRST members are not members of a utopian society, we all have flaws, and we all know there are members on our teams that pose a risk. But I would much rather have those people on my team than to win an award, because I know the effect FIRST has on those individuals is much more valuable than any award.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

Isn't this a little like the play in football where one player lands a cheap shot on another and the second retaliates? The ref sees the second and calls the penalty on him.

My question is, what did the FTA say/do to provoke the comment? You can't tell me that the person that was doing the yelling was yelling just to yell. Obviously he/she disagreed with whatever was being told to them. Was their reaction appropriate? Maybe/maybe not. Did they go back after cooling down and apologize for their behavior? We don't know. The bottom line is we just don't know without knowing the full situation.

People are people and can get fired up in the heat of the moment. Sometimes they take it too far. This is life. Anybody that comes here and claims to have never said something that was inappropriate or that they regretted later is just flat out lying.

Just to lighten the mood a bit....what if that person's grandmother swore like a trucker and that them standing up for themselves made her proud....would that fall into the GP category? :rolleyes:

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

I cannot imagine how adding profanity to an environment can make it more inviting to anyone I would want to invite. If this is just a failure of imagination on my part, I am quite content to leave it at that.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

I found that in high stress situations such as interviewing, when the interviewer swore, it helped me to relax making the interview less intimidating. Based on many of the presentations I've seen I find that swearing can help to relax unnecessary tension. I don't believe any interview or presentation should really be stressful. We should have fun with life and take it less seriously. The occasional curse helps to lighten the mood and minimize the pretentious nature of a many stressful activities.

But here we get into an ethical debate, and I guess I look at certain topics more liberally than others. As I always say with politics, there is always a right answer for both sides, so no matter how you answer, you are always right... but you are also always wrong. It comes down to personal opinion in most cases.

I love it when my mom apprehensively swears because she thinks it is critical to delivery. Hearing someone swear who almost never does creates an interesting emphasis on what they are saying.

I'm assuming you are one of the many people who never hire Gary Vay to speak because of his language. He admits that this has happened plenty of times, but that his language is part of his delivery, and helps him to give a good presentation. I think if someone else were to give his talks they would be somewhat monotonous. Now that is not only because of swearing, but it his case it helps to lighten the mood and make him more inviting and exciting.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

Very good point here! Over the season I was told some pretty weird stuff by some FTA/field people that didn't make sense. One time our robot wouldn't connect and I asked him if we wanted us to power cycle. He said, "no, that won't fix anything". After a few minutes he walked off field and I reached in an power cycled and a few seconds after the RSL light was flashing we were connected.

Another time this season our programmer/HP was on the field and one of the FTA's or assistants was trying to check why we weren't connected and he had to explain how the system worked to her. Somewhat scary to be honest!

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

If someone swears at me, or at something near me, my reaction is hardly going to be one of decreased stress! I'm obviously not understanding you at all.

With this I agree wholeheartedly. I don't get any sort of connection between this and a relaxed or inviting mood, though. On the contrary, something that leads a normally mild-mannered person to an outburst of cursing is likely to make me apprehensive and ready to flee.

Never heard of him. I still know next to nothing about him -- all the web search links I tried to follow were to video and social media sites that are blocked at my workplace. I figure that says enough about his desirability as a speaker, and I won't go pursuing it further.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

[quote=Alan Anderson;1064555]If someone swears at me, or at something near me, my reaction is hardly going to be one of decreased stress! I'm obviously not understanding you at all.



With this I agree wholeheartedly. I don't get any sort of connection between this and a relaxed or inviting mood, though. On the contrary, something that leads a normally mild-mannered person to an outburst of cursing is likely to make me apprehensive and ready to flee.


Take this situation:

You are a new intern at a corporate office. It is your first day. Everyone is walking around in a business suit. You are tasked with getting the coffee.

You walk into the room with all of the coffee. All of the employees are talking in a heated manner, with very straight and serious faces. Unfortunately you spill a cup onto the table. One of the employees looks up at you, and with a smile, he chuckles out the words "(A barrier constructed to hold back water and raise its level, also what a beaver makes.) kid, first day huh?", but in a very lighthearted manner.

Just like anything else, it is ALL about your tone and delivery.

On another note-

What was the photo removed of?

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

The "removed photo"...

Purportedly of a game element. Therefore, there was never a photo there, and Bill Miller has proceeded to start the annual torture.

BTW, with the swearing: I'm in Alan's camp. If the situation you described happened at my workplace, whoever said it would probably get a talk with their supervisor. It might not happen on the spot, but within a day or so, they would most likely be in the supervisor's office for a little chat. Even if it was obvious they were joking.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

Sorry, I wasn't referring to swearing at me or an object, rather I was referring to casual language. The same could be said for slang in these situations. I know when my professors swore "with" me (not at me) it was nice to see them not act superior but rather as a mutual academic.

What I was trying to say was that slang and swearing not directed at things can have an interesting effect on the tone of the conversation. I completely understand that some work places would like to exclude this type of language as it certainly offends some. Then again so is the case with using the Lords name in vain, but I don't know of many work places that prohibit that in the same way they prohibit swearing.

protecting freedoms is an oxymoron :).

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

What you actually wrote was that it can have an inviting effect. If that was merely a misspelling of "interesting", I retract my disagreement.

As for Matt's hypothetical coffee-spilling newbie getting cursed at with a smile...were I on the receiving end of the curse, I'm pretty sure I'd be doing my best to avoid that particular chuckling employee for the rest of my time there. First impressions are hard to change, and if the first thing I hear out of someone's mouth is a swear word aimed at me, my impression of them is going to start out very low. It's going to be especially low if they seem to be treating it as a joke.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

Matt, if I change your sentence to "First day, huh kid?" or something of that sort and omit the profanity, I have succeeded in making exactly the same statement and removed the potential to insult someone by using profanity. In the (limited) cases I can think of that people use profanity, I can achieve the same result without the use of profanity.

Dave, I both agree and disagree with your point. We do not know (though I realize there may be individuals on CD that do know) based on Bill's statements what led up to the exclamation and what was said/done after. If it was a discussion that only the FTA and team member could hear, the language could have been acceptable. If it wasn't, a later apology could have occurred and while the initial action may have been wrong, amends could have been made.
That said, it certainly appears this discussion was not in an area that allowed for a discussion to be limited to the hearing of the two individuals as evidenced by the fact that a judge overheard. So, is it ever wise/advisable to be using profanity where others (general public) can hear you? Remember, the other people can be young children and people that are insulted by the use of profane language.

Full disclosure: I do not use profanity and try to avoid being around people that do whenever possible.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

The blog post makes no mention of whether the team responsible was in any way notified of what took place. I hope that this isn't the first they're learning of this.

I am uneasy with judges making decisions without first learning more about the context of the interaction. I hope they spoke to all involved before eliminating the team from consideration.

On the whole, this seems like a passive aggressive way of making a point.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

Note: The following post contains many maybes and things to consider. I do not try to assert any facts.

Has anyone even considered the context of the conversation?

I expect the FTA knew plenty about the field system, but how much do they know about play a game of pokemon? How much do they know about how to build a car engine? Maybe the student, albeit rude*, was correct.

Has anyone considered the tone of the students voice? Although it seems implied, it is not spelled out. This thread seems to have two different opinions on how abrasive language can reflect on a person. Maybe it was a conversation between two friends, one who happens to represent FIRST.

Another thing to consider is we are hearing this story 3rd or 4th hand. Could a small detail have been assumed? Could someone have exaggerated something to a point? Is this story being told as the eye-witness or one of the participants recall it?

Again, I am not saying any of this did happen. I am just suggesting that we are taking one side of a story and there might be some details we have overlooked.

*The language can be open to interpretation.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

I don't need to expend much more thinking on the message other than a team that was being considered for a prestigious award was taken out of the running because of a team member's conduct.

Whether I agree, personally, with how the message was conveyed in Bill's Blog or not, isn't important - and that is what I would tell the team when we talk about the impact (positive or negative) of conduct as individuals representing the team and, as a team as a whole.

That's the bottom line.

Jane

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

That's definitely correct.

One thing I think about when I'm out and about is the shirt I wear. Whenever I put on a shirt, chances are that it has a logo on it. That logo represents something--a team, a camp, a company, a college, some group that I have had some association with. If I don't act in a way that brings respect to that group, or at the very least leaves a neutral impression, I detract from the group's reputation. I don't want to detract from that reputation. I can be identified as a member of that group--even by someone who just knows the logo--and what I do affects their reputation.

That's why I always try to act professionally--or not wear something identifying any groups I'm with when I have fun on the slightly crazy side.

At a regional, anything you say reflects on the team whose shirt you're wearing--competing team or team of volunteers. When one team makes a bad impression on another team, one or both teams can get a black eye.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

That shouldn't even be a consideration. No matter how provoked, how angry you are, you ALWAYS act with respect and courtesy. There are ways to get your point across without resorting to swearing. FIRST is real life, not a blog or radio talk show where you can act badly with no consequences. We have not done our job of preparing students for careers if we condone such behavior.

Remember, the field people (with the exception of FIRST employees) are all volunteers. They are volunteering their time and almost always their money to enable YOU to compete. (A few key volunteers sometimes get their expenses paid, but very few.) If volunteers get reactions such as the one being discussed, no matter if it was their fault, they will stop volunteering. It takes a special person to be a FTA - don't chase them away.

And teams losing awards because of one student's behavior is unfortunately not rare. It's an open secret that judges have always asked field personnel if any teams have stood out in their minds, negatively or positively. And not just for incidents on the field either.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

And often ask the same question to the volunteers doing queuing, inspections, and staffing pit admin and the safety glass stations.

*There was a team removed from winning a technical award because of some disgraceful behavior reported at the venue that had nothing to do with their amazing robot.

*Edit & Update: The behavior involved the venue and house security having to be called. The judges did investigate. Team reps apologized. Then there was a second incident, similar to the first.

And I've heard it also work the other way. Accolades showered on a team by something they quietly did and this reported back to the judging room.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

I wonder how often sports teams are penalized for the behavior of fans wearing team jerseys. Probably not often.

When we're at competition -- especially those closest to home -- about half of the people walking around the venue in 488 shirts are folks I've never seen before.

What do we do? We could deny our supporters the chance to wear our uniform, but that doesn't really seem to jive with the notion of celebrating what we're all doing there. We could make them all go sit through some ridiculous "gracious professionalism" lecture, but since these are people I've never seen before, I'd rather be happy that they've showed up at all.

The short version, I guess, is that I think penalizing an entire group of people for the actions of a small number of people -- especially without any notion of the role those people play on the team -- is completely ridiculous.

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Yes - the message FIRST is sending here is crystal-clear. It looks like they're telling you that if you have any kids on your team that you can't trust to not make a dumb comment, ever, then you better kick them off the team and/or not bring them to any events. You know, those types of kids that FIRST probably needs to reach the most - the misguided ones who maybe haven't always had the best influences in their lives. FIRST apparently doesn't want any of that type of riff-raff at their events. :rolleyes:

Oh, and you probably better not invite any parents or other adults either. You never know what some unmonitored adult could say that might be tied back to your team. Best just to not have them there, right?

Good grief.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

Group punishment is ridiculous under most circumstances, but I think that that's not the root of the problem.

In a sports context, there's usually a separation between the fans (even those wearing jerseys) and the players. If a fan ran onto the field wearing team colours, there wouldn't usually be any question about who was responsible.

In a FIRST context, teams often just mass-produce a shirt and hand it out to anyone with a pulse and a tenuous connection to the team. Since a FIRST team member could be anybody, it's hard for a judge to guess who's just a related spectator, and who's actually on the team (and partially responsible for the team's conduct).

One solution might be to print two sets of shirts—one for the team, and one for the team's supporters (labelled as such). Of course, the judges would still have to know how to make the distinction, and it's not so easy to raise that point with the judges (to make sure they know what to look for) without throwing up red flags.

Either way, the team needs to be cautious about how they're being perceived.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

I understand what the poster is saying here. To use the spilled cup of coffee as an example: You're in an interview with someone. The interviewer has various papers on his desk, as well as a Styrofoam cup of coffee. He goes to reach for something and accidentally knocks the cup, which spills on the paper. First thing out of his mouth is a muttered "Sh**!" Turns out the coffee just ruined some important document. (Or consider the same situation for someone giving a presentation.)

Now, I don't think many of us would begrudge the interviewer for that. Personally, curse words have their place. Used right, they can convey a large amount of emotion and/or feeling. Much more than "Darn/Drat/Shucks/Uh-oh".

Now, I'm not saying that it's right to direct them towards anyone. However, the tone of most people's comments are coming across as being rather condescending. I'm just trying to point out that there are situations where a curse word could be considered appropriate.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

This may be showing both age and cultural differences between those posting in this thread.

As an illustration - at about midnight with a group in St. Louis at the CMP, I had someone say to me "You are the s**t."
My face must have looked as shocked as I felt. I was really tired so at first I thought I heard her wrong. This is someone I like, and I thought liked me. However, she is half my age.
I said "What???!"
And she and two others piped in "No, that is good. We all like you."

I dunno. Sometimes it feels hard to keep up. ;)

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

I swear I like you too :) , but being your age I also wouldn't use those words in polite company.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

Shouldn't judged awards be basded on direct evidence rather than hearsay?

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

I doubt that feedback from field personnel would be the only input used to base an award on, its just one bit of the data used.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

So you are saying that a team whose members scream swears at the FTAs are Gracious and professional (the criterion for a GP award)?

As you said ... Good grief.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

The team as a whole may be very gracious and professional. What if the person in question was not even a member of aforementioned team? I know lots of people not on our team have Cheesy Poof shirts either through shirt trading, launching them out of the t-shirt cannon or other means. Do we need to require a class on gracious professionalism before someone is allowed to own our shirt?

Furthermore, did the judge go up and talk to the student after it was witnessed? What if the person had Tourette syndrome and was exhibiting coprolalia or something similar? FIRST needs to be careful about using potentially out of context incidents like this as the basis for judged awards (and if they choose to publish them like this, they should release more context)...

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

I said no such thing, thanks.

FIRST is stating plainly that a team was discarded from awards consideration due to the actions of 1 single person (which is quite a bit different from "a team whose members" which implies many/most of the team). I'd venture a guess that the poorly-behaved student in question was identified as a "team member" based only on the shirt they were wearing too.

My contention is that calling this event out will have the wrong impact: it's not possible to police all of a teams' members 100% of the time. Even with extensive "GP training", some kids won't believe in it and/or simply won't get it. So, knowing that, the only way as a team leader that I could avoid being called out in a Bill's Blog post would be to expunge all the "loose cannon" students and adults from my team. To me, it's a logical conclusion. However, as I said in my earlier post, the types of kids who are more likely to say something inappropriate from time to time are the same kids who could probably benefit most from FIRST. So, if you make a big stink of "we're watching you" on a blog and tell a story about how 1 student ruined a team's chance at an award, maybe you're inadvertently taking away the opportunity of a program like FIRST from the kids who need it most. I also contend that there's plenty of students who would never, ever utter the words "you don’t ****ing know what you’re doing" to an adult under any circumstances, but for the most part these are the types of kids that already "get it" and are probably less in need of FIRST showing them the way.

Of course such behavior out of any person, student or adult, should not be condoned. I guess I just hope that the evaluation in Seattle wasn't as black-and-white as Bill presented it. If a team spends a whole regional helping out every other team there, and a bunch of rookies play on the field who otherwise would have had a pit area full of parts but no robot, and 1 student is caught saying something dumb, should that team be eliminated from consideration for all awards? I sure hope not. I also sincerely hope that the team in question in Seattle was notified of this at the event, because there's nothing worse than a problem you can't solve because you don't even know about it.

Something else for thought: I'm sure there are kids in FIRST who are competitive and don't mind crossing the line from time to time. An unscrupulous student might look at Bill's Blog and figure out he has a sure-fire way to help his team out at his next event. His team is up for consideration for the Chairman's Award and he really, really wants to win, but there's another team in the running that is strong. Luckily he traded shirts with that team last year, now all he has to do is put on that shirt and go swear at a judge a little, and boom - competition eliminated. Think that's impossible? I'll bet there's some who would have thought no student would say "you don’t ****ing know what you’re doing" to an FTA too.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

First off, answering a question with a question isn't an answer ;) .

Teams are based on all sorts of criterion, and observing them during stressful times is most likely one of those critera.

You might want to consider giving out shirts that are not the 'team' shirt, so as to avoid this issue.

If you give out stuff that identifies that person as part of your team (whether they are or not) then any actions they do WILL reflect back on your team, for better or worse.

FTAs are typically a very reliable source of information. If judges had to 'follow up' on all 'ungracious or unprofessional' outbursts before casting their vote ... well, we'd never see a GP award.

As I've stated in other places, teams need to understand their members and not put them in a position they cannot handle. In your above example, companies/buisinesses would be careful not to put that person in a position where they would/could cause the company embarrassment (such as spokeman). FIRST teams should do the same.

In the end you should consider this a real world experiance. When you are wearing a team shirt (even if it's not yours), you represent that team and everything you do reflects back on that team.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

Sorry for the double post. We cross posted ;)

Sorry, I didn't mean to put in a plural. :rolleyes:
And I would not venture any guess as to how they knew what team they were on as we have no information/proof. You, Of course, have already stated otherwise.

Or ... you could accept that you will not win the GP award and work to inspire those that need it most.

Also, they were 'eliminated' from only the GP award (reread bills blog), not all awards.

Again, we have no data to go on, so I won't comment on anything else the team 'may' have done or not done.

Unfortunately, here, you are correct. As in my last post, teams need to guard their image. Giving out team shirts invites this, hence my suggestion that the shirts teams give out not be the 'team uniform'.

JM(NS)HO

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

If this scenario occurs then the team is failing the student. The expectations regarding team behavior (students, parents, and mentors) should be instilled in the team way before a team member has an opportunity to get frustrated with an FTA. Way way before.

Do people get frustrated, mad, impatient, angry? Yes, they do. It's how they handle those strong emotions that defines their leadership on a field of competition.

Jane

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

Seeing as it's coming up again, I just wanted to clarify where I think the onus lies, with respect to judges trying to interpret the significance of their observations with respect to an entire team.

As a matter of good practice, teams should strive to avoid situations where their insignia could lead a person to believe that something disreputable was happening with the team's approval. But shirts are memorabilia too, and naturally, the most authentic pieces are the most valuable, and indeed the best ones to give your friends. So there needs to be some balance. Teams should probably only be handing out their actual uniforms to people they trust...and non-team members wearing those uniforms should probably be aware of what they appear to be to an uninformed observer. (In other words, if you're wearing another team's shirt, be nice.) For random people receiving gifts or souvenirs, maybe they should be provided with something different to at least minimize the possibility of confusion.

But more importantly, judges need to be aware that the opinion of one person doesn't necessarily reflect the mindset of a team. (The same goes for inspectors for that matter, since they're often in similar situations where they might have to evaluate a team's intentions based on the conduct of individuals.) The judges need to be keenly aware of the nature of the contact they're making, and the inferences they draw. If an objectionable remark was overheard while they interviewing a team in a formal setting, did the other team members react positively/negatively? Or was this overheard in a queueing line (e.g. reacting to a call from a past match in private conversation) or a hallway (e.g. a person wearing a shirt with a team's number on it, saying something offensive)? And is the person making the remark in a position of leadership or influence?

And incidentally, the judges are going to have to figure out whether the gracious professionalism award is for the team that is most professional in aggregate, most professional per capita, most consistently professional, or something else. (Owing to the inherent subjectivity and the short amount of time judges spend directly interacting with a team, maybe it's always going to be "something else" by default.)

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

The Gracious Professionalism is definitely a team award so the team has to be considered as a whole, which means that one person on the team could undermine the chances of the whole team earning the award.

The individual's behavior will most likely influence the decision of the judges, especially if it is a close contest between three teams as mentioned in Bill's Blog. The behavior weighed against the team and lowered their standing in the considerations.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

What strikes me about this exchange is that the comment wasn't directed at a fellow team member, an alliance partner, a parent, a sponsor - it was directed at AN FTA. The single most critical position at any event. Without an FTA, an event just plain won't run (assuming the use of official FRC equipment). The manuals give the FTA complete and final authority. This individual should be treated with utmost respect in any situation, reagardless of situation or circumstance.
I can't speak on behalf of other teams, but in our team, I don't tell the students they have to be respectful. I DON'T HAVE TO.

If I have a student that, after a fall semester and entire build season, I have reservations about that student representing our school and team well while at an event, I have no problem un-inviting that student to the event. Competitions are a reward for months of hard work; if a student cannot behave during those three days, that student should not be there.

I can't count the number of times I've seen the reprimand on CD of "no matter what the disclaimer, you're always representing your team." Doesn't this extend beyond the interwebs and into competition?

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

Why should I treat an FTA any better than anyone else? They are a person and if your reaction to any other person is a series of profanities then so be it.*



*It is still wrong but at least you are treating everyone fairly.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

So, in a dispute, you'd use the same language with your sibling or college roommate as you would the Governor of Michigan?
If that's acceptable behavior, then we as culture-changers have a lot of work to do.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

And you would treat the guy who cleans toilets after hours differently than you would your Governor? They are both humans who deserve the same amount of respect as you would hope they would give you.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

Anyone you don't know personally deserves the same amount of respect regardless of who they are or what they do. What Taylor brought up is the differentiation between someone you know well, i.e. sibling or roommate, and a complete stranger.

I'm sure most of us communicate with our families and friends in a much more informal or casual way than we do with people we don't regularly speak with.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

I will concede the point that treating a stranger the same way you would treat your brother may result in problems. I stand by my claim that if we respected everyone no matter their station the world would be better.

This student was in the wrong because he was disrespecting a fellow person. Had he said those exact words to the safety glasses attendant I would hope we would be having this exact conversation because who they were disrespecting shouldn't matter. It is still disrespect.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

The documentation given to the teams doesn't even mention the FTA. They don't know what he/she is.

Although observing the FTA's role might soon convince them otherwise, at first glance, they don't know that the FTA is any different from the person badgering them about sweeping out their pit. It's understandable that some teams therefore don't take the FTA seriously, because they don't understand the position.

(This is a longstanding oversight: the teams need to know what's expected of them in order to adjust their behaviour appropriately. The "At the Event" section should summarize the decision authority matrix.)

As for authority, that needs to be qualified a bit: they can make decisions that nobody else would be in a position to make (acting in FIRST HQ's stead when circumstances dictate it), but that power should be thought of as a reserve power. You only use it because it's the last option available, and you only use it to the extent absolutely necessary. In particular, teams should not expect them to overrule a terrible call made on the field or a bad decision made at inspection, though they may note the incident in their report. Those issues are properly addressed to the head/lead officials, with whom ultimate authority rests. Similarly, volunteers shouldn't expect the FTA to overrule the volunteer co-ordinator on personnel matters, or the event manager on logistics.

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

If that student was close enough to the FTA to engage him in conversation, and berate them in the manner reported, I'm betting that he/she was part of the drive team. If they didn't know already, the drive team very quickly learns the importance of the FTA and their role.

As said before, a good FTA will make or break a competition and is the final authority on field and game management issues.

(All this applies to the FTAA as well. The job is big enough you need two people).

Re: [BB] What did you do with your weekend?
 

Personally I know an FTA well enough that I will poke fun at him on occasion sometimes about FIRST / field related issues as well as completely unrelated issues. However I've also watched him and worked with him on the field and he knows EXACTLY what he's doing, I would _never_ question him on a technical call even if it seems wrong to me, instead I would follow any instructions he gave knowing that he's doing exactly what he is trained to do and the problem will get fixed.

Another thing that might get on some people's nerves is the fact that sometimes the things the FTA does take time to take effect. Anyone that works with computers knows that computers take time to do things, progress bars are rampant when computers are involved, its a fact. The field is not different, it runs on computers and therefore sometimes you have to wait till the computer is ready.

The last thing and the thing that I'm guessing triggered that student's comment was when FTA has to make the tough decision that the match must start without being able to connect that robot. Yes, it's frustrating, I've had it happen to me, I think once at a regional and once or twice at battlecry. Here's the thing, when that happens I don't get mad, I talk to the FTA to make sure I know how to fix the problem because if the FTA can't fix it on the field it is probably a problem with your robot, not with the field. One thing that people also need to realize is so that everyone can have the number of qualifications that they are promised and go home / to their hotel at a reasonable hour. Matches need to start on time, yes there is a little push and pull but in the end matches need to happen in a timely way. The FTA is not happy about starting the match without making your robot work however it has to be done.

Overall the point of this post is they know what they are doing, yes they are people, fun to joke with, and can make mistakes, but they also know exactly what they are doing.