FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

hi i am matt mccormick from team 1023 and i have an ability to make custom LED signs for your pit or whatever you want. these signs can be out of any material ,you, the customer, wants and any size too (highest price would be $200 and that was a 26x36 sign). i have made a few types of these signs already and the designs come in, but are not limited to, FIRST logo, FIRST (spelled out), team logos, and much much more! These custom LED signs can have various modes also. what i mean by this is that they can flash, flash in sequences, and do funky patterns! so if anyone is interested in a custom made LED sign please email mattmc@bex.net for more information!

pricing is decided from type of material, desired size, and complexitity. thanks!

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

Do you have some examples? Or pictures?

-RC

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

Is the use of the FIRST logo or name for profit legal?

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

To add to these, is it safe to have in pits? I recall flashing lights can call seizures. To add onto this, flashing lights could give people headaches over time. If anyone intends to buy these for pits, please do everyone a favor and get it non-flashing or at least where you can change it between flashing and non.

Jason

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

...or just flash s l o w l y

Nice idea, a photo of one in action would be cool.

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...2 988_n-1.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...95 9675_n.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...29 7081_n.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...19 2818_n.jpg

now you cant see the 4 flashing modes in these pictures but let me assure you, its intense. as for the flashing, it is variable with a pot on the side of all my works.

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

It depends. The wordmark and logo are registered service marks (an outgrowth of trademark law), so you couldn't use them in a way that would imply endorsement for something that FIRST didn't actually support. In terms of copyright law, the FIRST name and wordmark are not copyrightable because—at least in U.S. law—even stylized text is considered to be insufficiently original.

But the real question is whether the logo is copyrightable. Simple shapes aren't, but I suspect that the FIRST logo would pass the threshold of originality, and therefore be copyrightable. (The only way to know for sure is to litigate.) If that were the case, reproduction of the logo for profit would likely be infringement. (Although copyrighted works can be used under an assertion of fair use, it could be difficult to make such a claim in the context of a for-profit activity.)

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

yes, thats why i only made that logo for non-profit. that sign was for my team and was only charged from materials. as for selling one to one of you, i would have to ask first about that.

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

if any one is at MARC today, come to the pit of 1023 to see the sign in action! i will be there also.

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

I feel flashing lights wouldn't be to bad, as long as they are some what slow, as most of you might have noticed the robots have a large flashing light on them.

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

Yes, the robots do have a flashing light on them. But they are nowhere near as bright as an LED sign. Slow flashes still might cause headaches and even seizures.

Awesome idea. Would you be able to make team logos or team numbers?

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

yes, any design is possible.

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

I wonder if he can make one with DEDs?
(Dark-Emitting Diodes. When power is applied they absorb the light from the room) :p

Seriously: Thanks for the photos, that looks really nice. Although you probably won't get wealthy making these, for some teams they'll be a nice addition to their pit.

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

the goal with these signs isn't as much to make money, its to provide a nice service with minimal cost as possible to make first look good and the customer happy.

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

also i will fix the signs for free is something happens to them that is not the customers fault. such as some becoming burnt out for no reason or wires becoming undone. not saying anything will happen but i will fix anything for free.

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

Do DEDs even exist? link please. That would be pretty sweet though.

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

lol no DEDs do not exist but if there was a type of device it would be a LRD, light receiving diode :P

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

A current limiting resistor should reduce the risk of the signs burning out, if youu don't already have one in the design.

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

i actually figure out the exact amperage of each sign and fit a fuse accordingly

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

I assume it's a resetting fuse, so we don't have to have extras laying around?

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

it is a choice to have any kind of desired, the fuse never really blows so it can just be a slow blow. but if the customer wants a auto or manual reset, that can be arranged

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

I infer from your response that you aren't using resistors. If that's true, what do you use to control the current through the LEDs?

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

the voltage is balanced by the number of LED's for each color i use

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

I asked about current, not voltage. Do you know what the I-V curve of a diode looks like?

If you don't have a way of controlling the current, you can easily end up overstressing the LEDs and burning them out. A simple series resistor is usually good enough, but a fancy constant-current source circuit will keep the brightness much more consistent.

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

oh, i misunderstood your comment. i just use a master fuse and 12v voltage regulators.

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

Not unless the OP has asked FIRST already (and as a summer intern for marketing, I can pretty safely say that he has not.)

http://usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/...logo+standards

"FIRST graphics may not be incorporated into any item for commercial sale without written approval from FIRST Marketing. Please e-mail requests to marketing@usfirst.org and allow at least 2 business days for response."

That page also has the FIRST branding and design standards listed. matt99199, if you could adhere to those with your signs (after you contact FIRST, of course), that would be lovely...not to mention legal.

:)

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

By just staying with team numbers or names & team logos you can streamline your mfg. and then easily avoid the whole "FIRST" issue, while still providing something cool for the pits.

Something light-weight that can fit safely on the typical pit sign ploes, or hang from curtains would be ideal.

What kind of power supply(s) do you have? Can the signs be battery operated easily? What kind of fonts are available? I think someone already asked, do you have any examples? Sorry we missed checking your sign out at MARC!! :ahh:

Sounds like a cool idea, keep up your enthusiasm!

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

Then you're not controlling the LED current. For a commercial product that ought to last indefinitely, this is not a good way to do things. Please forgive the continued threadjack, but I think the point is important.

LEDs work because of current through them. There is a specific current that is best. The typical way to set that current is to use a series resistor whose value is chosen based on the expected voltage across it. Let's say you have a 12 volt supply and your LEDs drop 2.2 volts. You can put four LEDs and a resistor in series, and the resistor will see 3.2 volts. If you want 40 milliamps to flow, you should use an 80 ohm resistor. It'll be dissipating just over 1/8 watt, so a quarter-watt resistor is appropriate.

If you use five LEDs in the series string, the resistor only sees 1 volt and should be 25 ohms, and only dissipates 40 milliwatts, but you're getting to the point where imperfect tolerances can cause a relatively large variance in LED current. If you try to use six LEDs, the total voltage drop across them is more than the supply voltage, and no current will flow.

If you use five LEDs and no resistor, you'll be putting as much current through the LEDs as the power supply can provide at 11 volts. This is not how you want to treat the LEDs. With a capable power supply, the LEDs will overheat and die.

Commercial LED lamps often use a circuit that supplies a constant current. That's technically the best solution, though it's probably more complicated and expensive than necessary for a simple decoration.

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

battery operated can be done, robot batteries also, but i always used a 120v-12v transformer that could control power changes.

any type of font is possible, i use auto cad for most of it, so that is why it looks so good when it is done.

all pictures that i had of other signs where deleted when my system got trashed thanks to ubuntu linux. i only had those others because they where on fb.

as for the resistor stuff, it works fine and would cost way too much with that many of them. i have had these signs running for half a year continuous and nothing went wrong or shorted out. it might be beacuse of the choice of transformer i used. so unless something cateoustrophic happens, i'm not worried about the current flow. another reason they couldn't have a problem is because i undervoltage them. i use 12v but the outcome is 12.6, so if there was a problem with current then the extra LED or 2 would level it out.

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

With parallel wiring, one resistor could regulate the current for many LEDs arranged in groups of 4 or 5 in series. It might even be possible to get away with one resistor per color, although higher wattage resistors might be necessary (but I don't know this for sure). Additionally, resistors are probably the cheapest electronic devices in existence ranging from $0.30 each for ten watt resistors down to $0.004 each for a reel of 5000 1/8 watt SMD resistors. 1/4 watt resistors can be found for $0.10 for a package of 10 (not SMD). The LEDs will cost far more than the resistors do by far, so I wouldn't worry too much about the cost of resistors especially when you consider the alternative of having to buy a new set of relatively expensive LEDs.

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

Resistors, especially in bulk, cost very little. My college's EE department has a rack of reels of resistors (not sure of wattage)--if a student needs one (or 12, or a few hundred for, say, 50 identical units) for a project, they go up there, take off the appropriate number, and go use them.

Figure out how much resistance you'll need, get a reel in that size, and you'll be set for "quite a few" signs.

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

Being nice to FIRST is absolutely a best practice—but it's important to distinguish what's a request on their part, and what's a legal requirement. Those documents linked above (including the logo standards manual) are, at least in part, wishlists.

For example, not italicizing the name "FIRST" has no implications under copyright law, and minimal ones under trademark law. It could conceivably make FIRST (and therefore Libby) angry, but what are the odds of that? (If you're bound by a particular contract with FIRST, you may be subject to additional requirements.)

More pertinently, when they say "FIRST graphics may not be incorporated into any item for commercial sale without without written approval from FIRST Marketing", despite the implication, that's not necessarily the only way to legally use FIRST's copyrighted artwork and registered marks. That's just their preferred channel for making a request for permission. (Permission from someone like a corporate officer would probably be sufficient under the law, and copyright fair use requires no permission at all.)

Despite all the legal technicalities, the easiest thing to do would still be to ask FIRST for permission: once they're satisfied, you're in the clear.

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

Not wanting to rain on anyone's entrepreneurial parade... But I'd prefer to buy a 27" LED monitor, $ 340 at Best Buy. Nice, bright, versatile. You can use it for presentations, signage, etc, and change the content on the fly. Admittedly it will require a PC to drive it but it isn't too hard to find a hand me down laptop that makes a good sign driver.

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

too bad it's not as impresive as a handmade sign :P

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

^bump^

it doesnt seem like anyone wants to buy one....

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

Please don't bump threads. If nobody posts here, then it should fall into the background. It means that people simply aren't interested in your product. If your interested in offering a different product, feel free to come back and post a new thread. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I think everyone here that was interested in hearing what you had to say has already heard it. There is no need for us to take the time to re-read the offer and frankly it wastes our time. My time may not be that valuable, but many people here are rather important even if they don't act it.

Sorry for the bluntness,
Jason

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

lol okay...

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

I would certainly not be angry. :) I was just making a friendly reminder, that's all.

^exactly.

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

You're missing the point.

Alan explained very clearly that you are not following accepted engineering practice. Logic dictates that you at least attempt to understand the correct method.

In other words: You've been lucky so far, but it's still the wrong way to do it.

Resistors are inexpensive
You've been lucky
It is not because of the transformer you used. You've been lucky.
You should be worried about current flow.

In today's litigious society even a high school kid can be on the losing end of a serious lawsuit. Just imagine your sign suffers a failure, and the resulting fire kills someone. A reasonable defense may be that you followed accepted engineering practice - but not doing so will really get you in hot water, particularly because it's a commercial product for sale.

Not trying to rain on your parade. Consider this a part of your learning process. No charge.

Re: FIRST LED signs for purchase!
 

The best way to promote your product, in my opinion, would be to ask off-season event organizers if you can demonstrate your product at their event. If they say yes, bring a sign and some business cards. This will allow you to gauge interest and establish contact with interested parties. Unfortunately, many off-season events have already happened (possibly all of them) but there is always next year, which gives you an entire year to continue product testing and development.