Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

On the topic of FRC district events in high school gyms on Fridays I think that it's actually a benefit to the program. Since most of the district events occur in high school gyms it doesn't appear that getting to use high school gyms is a problem. Although I've only attended one high school gym district with my team (Troy), I can see playing on a Friday would be a good thing to attract attention to FIRST and FRC teams because students at the school which is hosting the event could spectate and learn about FIRST and the robotics programs at their school. I know that at least at the Troy District (Troy Athens High School) that students of Troy Athens sit in the stands not used by teams instead of a gym class on that Friday.

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

I also killed nearly 2 weeks' vacation to travel with the team to our events in 2011, and I just can't do that any more. Work used to be more understanding, but as management changes so do unwritten policies.

Right now MAR is holding webinars to get the word out and get feedback. There are several unanswered questions that need to get answered, such as:
> How can non-district teams also compete? (We would miss those Brazilians and Canadians)
> What happens to the money? (A significant surplus is anticipated; short-term MAR needs to buy a field and some other stuff, but long-term could this be refunded to opt-in teams?)
> Can teams opt out on an annual basis?
> Can teams also attend other regionals?
> What is the qualifying structure for the 12 teams going to St Louis? (I can account for 9 of the 12, how are the other 3 decided?)
> If a team is awarded Chairmans at a district, they need to go to 'State' to have a chance to 'win' RCA; what if they can't afford the 'State' Championship?

These and other thorny questions are in the process of research & answer, but it's kind of a chicken-vs-egg thing, and we still have no idea what FIRST might prefer. It's an interesting journey, I recommend everyone consider what they might do or decide if this were proposed in their area.

I DO NOT speak for my team, and this isn't an official statement.

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

Unfortunately I keep missing the MAR forums/webinars due to scheduling issues. I hope to ask some questions about the system at one of them soon.


I have a pretty fundamental question that I'm not sure has been asked. In the short-term, could we simply relocate one (or both) of the area regionals to one of the alternate venues being proposed as district sites? Namely Philadelphia, which has usually been a ~40-45 team event anyway and had higher costs than Trenton. There were a number of proposed venues in the Philadelphia suburbs, why not just have a "traditional" regional at one of those?

That buys another year to continue planning and seek feedback from teams in order to make sure a district model is executed properly for this region.

Additionally, what about things like making our current regionals "bag'n'tag" events? Or running more total matches at our smaller events? The 44 team Philadelphia regional in 2010 only ran 66 total matches, thus why teams only had 9 qualifying matches. Michigan districts only have a few less teams, but get 12 qualifying matches per team by running around 80 matches. A simple increase in the amount of matches we run at our events can bring up the ROI numbers people love so much.

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

I can't imagine anyone thinks the area recently labeled MAR will be ready to implement a district system for the 2012 FRC season.

On the other hand I guess I can imagine it; but surely not...

Blake
PS: I thought the middle of the USA's Atlantic Coast was farther south than the area involved in this MAR; but I suppose that topic is a bit low on the priority list.

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

Some on our team noticed that NJ comes out ahead of the game, while Philly costs significantly more (for fewer teams) and is the money-loser in the region. I too would favor finding a less costly alternative to Philly.

Trenton was bag & tag in 2011.
Without it, one of the current regionals won't happen, as there is a $100k+ budget deficit. So, it's gonna have to happen in 2012.:ahh:

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

OK

Along the lines of Sean's comments about keeping independent variables untangled, I personally wouldn't think that reducing costs also mandates switching to a district competition ladder similar to Michigan's; but I can see how the two changes can be linked.

Blake

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

To be honest, it has posed significant benefits and challenges for those of us in the U.P. I work with three teams that center around Michigan Tech, and we're about 2.5 hours from the Wisconsin border. On the other hand, it takes us about 9.5 hours to travel to Traverse City, which is the closest district event to us.

The students that I work with have for the most part "grown up" in the district system, but many of the mentors and teachers remember the regional system in Michigan. The district model makes it difficult to coordinate several trips downstate with multiple teams. We are tackling this issue by trying to all attend the same district events, but that is not always possible when spaces fill up so quickly for the "hot" districts. Having all three teams at one district can also pose its problems, because the match turnaround. Many of our mentors "float" during the build season to help address specific needs that cater to their talents, and they can be stretched pretty thin during a district where all of their teams are present.

I am always hopeful that a district event will crop up in the U.P., but it's doubtful. Although many people express that they love traveling to far away places for competitions, the U.P. is probably not on their list of glamorous locales. We have about seven teams in the U.P., which means that we'd have to get at least 30 teams to travel to a new location, which would probably be around the Mackinac or Sioux region, which is still about 5 hours away for those of us in the Western U.P.

Overall, it would be much easier for us if we went to Wisconsin, but we all love the way that FiM is set up, and it gets much more "play" time for our students. I just wish we could have a district a little closer to home to help save on travel costs.

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

So why don't you??? This is a serious question, not a rhetorical one.

The external borders of Michigan aren't magical lines-of-death.

I have a hunch that the presence or absence of a robotics team is usually correlated with the presence or absence of mentors, sponsors and/or faculty who get the urge to form one, and not with a state boundary.

Even when a team's existence is correlated with a state program of some sort, I have a further hunch that the state program(s) usually wouldn't object to the team competing in sane nearby locations.

Surely we/FRC have the ability to form (and evolve) districts that are based on where teams actually exist rather than on 200-300 year old state boundaries that exist for a zillion reasons other than efficient/effective STEM inspiration.

State boundaries often become a crutch rather than an aid in this sort of situation. I hope that doesn't become the case throughout FRC.

Blake

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

I don't believe FIRST HQ would allow a team to opt out in 2009 (first year it was "piloted") because there were concerns of a large group opting out.
UP teams could pay the $5K, and then pay $4K to attend Wisconsin ($9K for 1 event) or they could pay $5K and attend one district and pay $4k and attend Wisconsin ($9k for 2 events). This would be most similar to other 2 event teams (cost/travel), but the District would not allow for a birth to championship like regionals do so they still wouldn't be getting quite as much value for the money (though they would likely get more matches).

All this being said, it is tough for many teams that are fairly isolated from events. Team that are remote relative to Regionals still have to travel large distances (and have for many many years), but they do get more options of where they want to travel to.

If the goal for the 3 UP teams would be to be at the same districts in order to decrease logistical burdens, I would write a polite letter to the board of FiM stating your case. The board may be able to work with the person that finalizes the schedule to make a special case for them.

If the goal of the UP teams was to opt out of the District System, they would likely have to go to FIRST HQ to get approval. That being said if I remember right, even Wisconsin still was 5+ hours and required out of state logistics (many schools have special policies for taking minors across state boarders).

UP teams are in a tough spot, but they are also pretty tough people.

If the District style model spreads, this will hopefully take care of itself. I see in the future a system with around 30-35 Regional Championships and around 100-200 district events (100 Districts = 2000 teams 200 districts = 4000 teams). Each regional championship will likely have 10 or so championship slots. My guess would be that this would be about 5 years out for a conversion.

2009 Michigan District System Pilot
2010-District Model approved, but only Michigan 8% of teams 1 state Championship
2011 District Model approved, but only Michigan 8% of teams 1 state Championship
2012 Michigan and 1 or 2 other regions 16-24% of teams 1 MSC 1or2 "Regional Champsionships"
2013 3-7 more new regions 40-50% of teams 6-10 Regional Championships (some of the big regions may split).
2014 5-10 more regions with probably 75% of teams a district system with 10-20 Regional Championships and hopefully no longer having "boarder restrictions".

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

Ike, I agree that if the district system spreads, then this problem will eventually work itself out. Until then, there isn't a fantastically affordable option for northern MI teams. Part of the problem is that there really aren't that many people in the UP! We seem to be clustered into isolated areas, but maybe that will change in the future.

Another reason for staying in MI besides cost is that many of us have strong relationships with our home town teams and sponsors. Advice and collaboration from old teams helps with networking, and we can all help each other out in a pinch. For example, HOT let our rookie team 3771 borrow a tool chest for a district where we couldn't transport sufficient tools and spare parts (due to driving in mini vans).

I am always blown away by how helpful FIRSTers can be, even after 10 years of participation. Everybody is always willing to lend a hand, and we lend one whenever we can.

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

There will come a day when the district model is so widespread that teams won't have an issue, since the model seems to facilitate speedy growth. Problem is, a lack of existing team concentration is a roadblock to instituting the model. It's a weird game of tug-of war the models play.

Is there some place to read up on what MAR is doing? I'm interested in the discussions and ideas people have tossed around.

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

i heard a rumor about a midwest district ohio indiana illinois that would be a pretty cool district

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

If there's any truth to this statement, which is dubious at this point, I really feel sorry for Pittsburgh-area teams in the coming future.

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

why do u say that

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

Because they would have the SHIFT to competing elsewhere since they can no longer enter those regionals. Allowing teams to compete anywhere allows them to CAPITALIZE on their locations. For example, a team in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan is actually closer to out of state events than in state events.

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

that makes sense

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

It would limit the number of nearby events for Western PA teams to chose from, as it would cut off the Buckeye and Philadelphia regionals. While DC, Baltimore, and Rochester would be potentially viable alternatives for some Western PA teams, cutting off both the ability to travel to the Buckeye and Philadelphia regionals as well as the supply of teams from those regoinals (including Pittsburgh regulars like 48, 128, 222, and 1038) will make things much more complicated for Pittsburgh-area FRC. I don't think anyone wants to see the Pittsburgh regional become a ~30 team regional again.

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

And also the teams in the Milwaukee area, which is around an hour away from Chicago and the Midwest Regional. I believe this year there were around 12-14 teams who went to both the Wisconsin Regional (in Milwaukee) and Midwest (in Chicago).

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

Actually what has been discussed is an Indiana / Illinois combo, with the option of Ohio and Wisconsin if those states / teams wanted to become a part of a district type of system.

However, right now, there are not enough events to support a "pay once / play twice" scenario for the number of teams involved.

And, this is all just being discussed. Nothing agreed, Nothing set in place.

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

[quote=Chris Fultz;1070281]However, right now, there are not enough events to support a "pay once / play twice" scenario for the number of teams involved.
[quote]

From 2008 to 2009 we went from 3 events in Michigan to 8 events (7 districts and a Championship). It is not easy, but it can be done.

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

Being about 40 minutes South West of DC we have the "luxury" of a number of different regional events within about 2 hours of us, but I know our school district would welcome any change that have our students miss less class time.

Question for you Michigan people, do you day trip to the event or get a hotel close by and deal with the cost? Due to how far our district will let us take a school bus the big expense for us is hotel unless we go "far" away.

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

We day trip to Kettering, Troy, and MSC (about 50 mins, 40 mins, and 1 hr 15 mins respectively).

We used school buses for those three trips.
The pit crew and comp team goes to the thursday districts (which start at 6pm) in vans and trucks, along with the robots and stuff. At districts, only the pit crew and comp team goes on Thursday. At MSC, the pit crew and comp team goes down in the morning, and the rest of the team joins us after lunch.

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

Honestly, it depends on the team. For some of the Detroit-area teams, there are almost three districts within a twenty minute drive (you only go to two), while the UP teams near Michigan Tech have 9.5 hours to get to Traverse City, and then they have to get to another district (probably West Michigan, an additional two or three hours, my estimate).

My team, on the outside corner of the Detroit metro area, has one within fifteen minutes and then two within about forty minutes, so no hotel is neccessary. However, once it is an hour or longer (the state championship), we get a hotel.

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

It depends on the event, for example 910 tries to do one "travel" event and one "home" event. Our home event is about 15 minutes from our school, so we don't use a hotel, while the travel requires a hotel. We could theoretically do two districts where we didn't need a hotel, we just don't. I know a lot of teams just do day trips to save the costs.

However, this is only how we do it and we are in metro Detroit, where most of the events take place. I know travel can be an issue for teams in the U.P., which has been discussed above.

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

I wish people would quit blindly quoting this. Even Google and Mapquest say it's 7.5 hours from Houghton to Traverse City. So unless you're traveling by broken-down school bus that can only reach 47 mph max or have a significant weather delay, this estimate has added at least 2 hours to the actual time needed. (And as anyone who has ever gone to MTU knows, you can go much faster than the speed limit through most of the UP. Not that I admit to ever doing that. :rolleyes: )

Travel for the UP teams (and for the second event for northern LP teams) is a significant factor. Let's just not make it more than it really is.

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

There's this one REALLY long traffic light...:)

Being a data junkie, here are all the relevant driving times and distances assuming flights aren't taken and discounting inclement weather and traffic (Google Maps).
That's just driving time. It takes longer of course to load up the bus, depart and arrive. Sort of like saying our flight to Atlanta only took 3 hours, but it was 9 hours between school ending and getting into our hotel rooms herding cats.:rolleyes:
Remember a trip is twice as bad when you start recognizing that it's a round trip, then we realize that the poor Houghton team spent at best 34 hours or almost one-and-a-half 24-hour days just riding the bus for it's two district events in 2011. Uphill both ways...

Houghton, MI to:
hours ----- miles ------ event
7.5 ------- 394 ------ Traverse City
8.7 ------- 494 ------ Kettering
9.2 ------- 525 ------ Waterford
9.3 ------- 510 ------ West MI
9.4 ------- 538 ------ Troy
9.4 ------- 544 ------ Ann Arbor
9.6 ------- 552 ------ Livonia
9.6 ------- 558 ------ Detroit
9.7 ------- 517 ------ Niles

4.1 ------- 216 ------ Lake Superior Regional, Duluth, MN (shorter distance by boat I suppose)
6.0 ------- 331 ------ Wisconsin Regional, Milwaukee, WI
6.4 ------- 341 ------ 10K & North Star Regionals, Minneapolis, MN
7.75 ------ 422 ------ Midwest Regional



For comparison to the Mid-Atlantic region the time/distance from say Gettysburg, PA to Trenton, NJ is
hours ----- miles
2.8 ------- 160


The Sidney team still wins the travel pain award with a 10 hour flight to the Hawaii Regional (closest).
Just for fun I asked Google maps to plot a drive from Sidney, Australia to the Regional in Hawaii.
It actually produced an answer... with a 6,000km kayak leg in it.

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

Busses tend to drive the speed limit ;P And taking a bus does tack on a little additional time because you have to stop for food, bathroom breaks, etc. Most people can drive from Detroit to Mackinac City in 4.5-5 hours, but when I take a bus up there with scouts, it's about 6 hours because we have to stop for two meals.

On a side note, I learned yesterday that the distance between Detroit and Houghton is greater than the distance from Detroit to Washington DC...

My team's school district doesn't have school busses, and we are not a large team, so we carpool to events. We also try to do one "home" event and one "away" event each year. Being directly north of Detroit puts us within 2 hours of all of the MI events except Niles, West MI, and Traverse City. We get a hotel if we travel to one of those events. Kettering, Detroit, Livonia, Waterford, and States are close enough that a hotel would just be a waste of money. Since we always can get enough willing parents to drive (and students, for close events), renting a bus has never been considered as a viable option.

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

I am a Michigan Tech Student (that means I live in Houghton), and the trip from Houghton to Grand Rapids has taken at the shortest 8 hours (speed limit of 70 in the LP), and at the longest 13.5 Hours. Its not all that inconceivable to be driving 20 or 30 miles per hour on some stretches of the UP when it is snowing.

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

For what it's worth, MAR has posted a link to their July 11, 2011 forum, which covers most of the issues at hand, including those mostly decided and those still up in the air.

Here is the link

It's an hour and a half, but goes into great depth, particularly the discussions at the end.

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

Don,

Slogging through the recorded webinar at the link is a bit tedious for those of us who are just interested in the big picture take-away.

Do you have a connection to anyone you can convince to post a downloadable slide deck?

Blake

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

Of course, it never snows in MI in March, nor do students need to eat ever...
This is an early version, the latest one I have seen is not much different. Sorry it is huge.

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

Thanks for posting the PDF Don!

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

For those out of state teams that would like to know what it is like at a Michigan district event come to the Kettering Kick off event on September 17, 2011. Many of the great Michigan teams are there for you to compete with. The Kettering Kick off is run very close to what the district event is and by most of the same people.
For more information http://www.ketteringfirst.com/

Re: Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?
 

Even though the cost to attend state and nationals separately goes up, the cost of traveling goes down because you don't have to travel across state lines to attend events. I like the way things are in Michigan now. However, I suppose my preference is biased because I wasn't around before they changed everything. Still, from what I've heard, I prefer it the new way. It's helped our team a lot.