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Tool Advice: Cutting Aluminum
I'm looking to replace our 12" miter saw in our robotics lab this summer. Currently we have a well-used non-sliding version which we use to cut sticks of aluminum like 80/20 and flat stock up to 6" wide. It has a 96 tooth carbide blade.
Our miter saw has a habit of grabbing things and flinging them around the room which certainly gets your attention! We change the blade frequently but I'm getting sick of it. It's also crazy noisy. Any thoughts on what the ideal tool would be for cutting aluminum square tubing and 80/20? Extra points for something quiet(er). My initial thought is a 10" sliding miter saw like this with an aluminum cutting blade. |
Re: Tool Advice: Cutting Aluminum
I believe this is the horizontal bandsaw we have in our lab. It's always been my choice of preference for cutting channel and 80/20, but our designs rarely call for angled cuts (if they did, I'd probably just take it over to the disc sander and run it down), so if you want to keep that ability, you may want something else.
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Re: Tool Advice: Cutting Aluminum
Horizontal band saw, every time. Always. My favorite tool ever.
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Re: Tool Advice: Cutting Aluminum
Angles are seldom needed in what we do, either. Am I correct that for aluminum I wouldn't need a band saw with an oil system?
How does their noise and speed compare? I assume accuracy is as good or better. If I were to get a horz band saw, what features are important? |
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Re: Tool Advice: Cutting Aluminum
Horizontal Bandsaw is definitely the way to go. I believe that this is what we have in our shop. It's pretty heavy duty and expensive, but it's not loud, and works amazingly well. It also has a built in fluid system to help the blade cut through materials other than aluminum.
Hope this helps, -duke P.S. as for noise, I'm almost positive that Miter Saws make more noise than horizontal bandsaws. You could probably find youtube videos of people using each of those machines and compare the relative noise. |
Re: Tool Advice: Cutting Aluminum
A horizontal band saw is relatively quiet, and relatively safe. The blade moves kind of slow, although for cutting aluminum it should be adjusted to a faster speed than for cutting steel.
Definitely the way to go...... |
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If you use a good miter saw, or a miter style chop saw specifically for cutting metal you can get a nearly perfectly square and finished cut. With a bandsaw if you were to be cutting tube to weld a frame you would almost certainly have to mill the ends square to provide a good joint. We purchased this saw for our machine shop trailer that supports FRC events this year. The machinists who used it liked it quite a bit. I've used it a few times and it's definitely better than a standard miter saw with a metal cutting blade. |
Re: Tool Advice: Cutting Aluminum
I personally like sliding miter saws similar to the ones mentioned. As Cory said, you lose accuracy of the cut (although it was a cheaper Grizzly horz saw, we experienced some flex in the blade). We would just use our chop saw and would usually have a good enough cut to use the piece as is. Rarely had to square the ends. I don't have a specific saw to buy, but I would still recommend the chop saw over the horizontal bandsaw. Just make sure to purchase high quality blades too, for either option.
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Re: Tool Advice: Cutting Aluminum
We have a band saw like the one slijin linked to, and it has worked very well for us over the past four years. It cuts very accurately for anything small enough to be clamped into and cut horizontally (it can also be set up as a vertical cut band saw) which is up to about 3x3 tubing. It does not have a built-in oiling system, but we use oil when cutting most stuff, though with 1x1 tubing (whether 1/8" or 1/16" wall) it cuts fine without the oil. We get a new blade at the start of each build season and it works fine.
On the other hand, we are looking at the purchase of a mitre saw this off season as well. There are some things we cut where the miter saw is just a better option. |
Re: Tool Advice: Cutting Aluminum
we have a horizontal and vertical band saw.
the horizontal band saw is better for making repetitive cuts, however the vertical band saw can cut plate as well as do more stuff. if you have a limited shop area and want to use one machine for everything, the vertical band saw will do that, however it is not as easy or nice for cutting 80-20 or tubes. |
Re: Tool Advice: Cutting Aluminum
What we do is run a stick of lube (I'm not sure what type, it's a thick pastel-y bar) along the blade right before letting 'er rip on the stock, then we just drop the saw and watch it eat through the aluminum. Most cuts we have are usually almost perfectly square; if they're not, a file takes care of the rest.
One thing I would like to make note of though, is that horizontal bandsaws have a hard time chewing through flat slats of material (although it seems much more obvious in retrospect). For instance, when running a cut through a 1x1 channel, the first side of the channel will take the blade a bit of time to saw through, the two sides of the channel that are ~perpendicular to the blade disappear within 1-2 seconds, and the last side takes a bit longer as well. What I do to counter this (because it also unduly stresses the blade) is drop channel into the clamp at an angle, so that it's not actually flush witho the base of the clamp. This way, the saw has a much easier time of cutting through the material. |
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The advantages and disadvantages of the Miter and Horizontal Band Saw have been covered pretty well. In summary, the Miter is more precise but can be noisy. The Band Saw is less accurate but fairly quiet.
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And always ALWAYS clamp what you are cutting. |
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We also have this horizontal bandsaw we use on occasion for cutting heavier aluminum, round stuff or steel. It’s nice, slow, quiet, but sure doesn’t cut as clean or square as the miter saw does on the smaller aluminum. I feel compelled at this point to stress safety concerning cutting aluminum on a miter saw. It goes without saying that the material needs to be clamped securely. While it may seem obvious, I would STRONGLY recommend AGAINST cutting round stock on a miter saw, especially short pieces that can’t be securely clamped properly. I can say from 2 separate experiences (years apart) that this is a VERY BAD IDEA. In both cases, I was younger, less wise, and barely escaped serious injury. After the second incident I quickly gained some wisdom and realized what happened and swore I would absolutely never cut round stock on a miter saw again including but not limited to PVC pipe, aluminum tube/round bar, and in the case of the second incident even aluminum hex stock. Bottom line, in both of my bad experiences the long piece was being held securely but the short piece being cut off was too short to clamp. After the completion of the cut the short piece “rolled” into the blade and was ejected at a very high velocity like a bullet. After the first incident I found the cutoff piece about 100 feet away in my neighbor’s yard where it had bounced of (and cracked) one of their windows. The second incident actually happened in our robotics shop a few years ago. It damaged the saw, fractured half a dozen teeth off the blade, and ejected the part clean across the room which fortunately was only occupied by myself at the time. It was there and then that I instigated the “no cutting round stuff on the miter saw rule” and ordered the above horizontal bandsaw for the robotics shop. I still have the broken blade and the jagged pieces of the hex stock and bring them out every year as examples during our team miter saw safety training. Pictures available upon request... On another miter saw safety note, I have observed many people who “think they know what they are doing” improperly using a miter saw in a very simple way. After the blade has cut through the material continue to pull the blade all the way down, release the trigger, and let the blade come to a complete stop before raising the blade. Never raise the blade back up while it is still spinning. At a minimum you risk buggering up the material being cut on the “back cut”. Safety wise the cutoff part can get snagged and ejected as well. The material has already been cut. No need to try to cut it again on the way up. Also, for what it's worth and in case anyone was wondering, I had an idea one time to get one of those variable speed A/C motor controllers used on routers to slow them down and try it on the miter saw to slow the blade down some when cutting aluminum. That didn't go so well either. Aluminum really does like to be cut better at high speed... |
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We have a small horizontal/vertical band saw from harbor freight as our primary cutting tool for aluminum, and pretty much anything else that can be clamped into it. It was a bit slow when we used it to cut through a 1" anodized aluminum shaft, but that was probably one of the toughest cuts it will ever have to make. We have had troubles with alignment in the past, most notably one indecent in which the blade became bent down the middle [like this--> ( ](not entirely sure how we managed that one) and it started cutting in rather pronounced curves instead of the fairly straight cuts it normally makes.
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I would agree with Cory, the noise is well worth the accuracy.
mike d |
Re: Tool Advice: Cutting Aluminum
Most of this has been covered, but I just wanted to second the choice of a miter saw over a horizontal band saw.
A horizontal band saw will most certainly work for what you need, but it will be less accurate. I personally enjoy the one and done cuts that a good miter saw/blade combo can produce. -Brando |
Re: Tool Advice: Cutting Aluminum
For years I've cut aluminum on a Dewalt 12" miter saw with a carbide tipped wood blade. It was very loud and and a little scary, but it made a clean cut every time. I could hold .005" on that saw. I will also say, I too have cut and flung small round stock on a miter saw. Don't do it.
At home I have a 14" vertical bandsaw that is made for wood, but cuts aluminum fine with a good blade. The Wilton 14" vertical bandsaw is designed for cutting metal. Of course, a vertical bandsaw is mostly for cutting plate, not long stock. I've used horizontal bandsaws too and they're fine. Nice and quiet. However, it seems at some point the blade always wants to wander outward, creating a cut that is not straight. If I were to go buy a saw today for cutting aluminum stock, I'd go buy the Evolution Fury 2 that Cory posted. If I had more money, I might get a more expensive dry cut saw. I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned a Cold Saw. They work well and are very accurate, but are very expensive. |
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Another saw that works well is a miter/porta band saw, works like a chop saw.
A benefit is that the blade runs in reverse rotation. I will see if I can find the brand. mike d |
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For the noise, it's a good chance to promote hearing protection. We not only require hearing protection, but a brief warning to others in the room "chop saw". We have both vertical and horizontal band saws, and a chop saw. Each has its place and value. For the vertical band saw, make certain the speed can be adjusted for cutting metal, and note that it can't cut every length like the other saws can. |
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We also have both a chop saw and a horizontal bandsaw. I completely agree that the horizontal bandsaw generally does not make precise square cuts.
In my opinion however, the chop saw is just plain dangerous particularly for students who do not always pay close attention to details. Absolutely - clamping the piece (no round pieces), but try as you may, clamping is not always as secure as it should be. Bullets of metal... plus, where do the broken carbide teeth wind up??? We use the horizontal bandsaw almost exclusively (and yes, sometimes some clean-up / filing is required). There are a few rare occasions where we call on the chop saw, but mostly our adults do those cuts (or VERY closely supervise). I just feel even at best, the safety of a chop saw used for aluminum is marginal. |
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Thanks for all the great feedback. We do have a vertical bandsaw so the miter saw or horz bandsaw would be mainly for cutting long sticks of aluminum down to size.
If we go the miter route I was considering going to a 10" sliding miter saw like this. That would let us use less expensive 10" blades (rather than our current 12") and replace them more often. Also, my hope is that since you are cutting backwards, sliding the blade back towards the fence, it would be less likely to thrown the work around. Thoughts? |
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My thought on the 10" sliding miter was that it might be a tad quieter, the blades are cheaper, and it can cut an aluminum plate as wide as we're likely to use. Most importantly is my unconfirmed theory, which I'd love others opinion on, that they are less likely to grab pieces and fling them around. That's because the designer didn't have to trade off where the backstop was in relation to the center of the blade. The blade is always contacting the work from the side rather than the top.
I'm also intrigued about the option, inspired by Corey, of using Evolution blades on our 14" abrasive cutoff saw or even on this miter saw. |
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My main preference in a mitre saw would be something that has versatility (e.g. rounds, flats and extruded sections) and a secure workpiece clamping system. I did not appreciate having to be careful to align the crown in the material with the imperfections on the table, so that the workpiece wouldn't shift during or after the cut. In fact, given a sufficiently good clamp, it would be easy to make the rule that nothing may be cut with the saw if it can't be clamped properly (i.e. you're not relying on hands to assist in securing the workpiece).
I've used both a Craftsman portable mitre saw and a benchtop Delta. Although they were both decent units, I wasn't really fully happy with them. The Craftsman was not designed with metal in mind: in particular the fence was horrible. This led to techniques that, in hindsight, were not particularly safe (even with extreme caution regarding the location of fingers, workpieces and clamps). The Delta had a passable fence, but the rotating carriage wasn't level with the rest of the table. This meant alignment was a chore—leave a gap and the workpiece settles during a cut. That was very annoying for precision work, and meant that angles were never quite right. You could cut length to within a few thousandths of an inch, but the perpendicularity was always wrong. I have managed to fling parts with both saws; I'm not very proud of that fact. After having experienced this the first couple times, I started to pay a lot of attention to the blades—I found that the Freud metal-cutting blades (carbide tipped, with numerous small teeth with alternating left/centre/right profiles and narrow kerf) worked much better than a generic carbide blade intended for wood. This resulted in fewer screwups, but given the other faults of those saws, it was hard to achieve as rigid a setup as I would have liked. Consequently, cutoff pieces still managed to work their way loose and go flying, occasionally taking teeth off of the blade. (This gets expensive: those are $40 blades.) Incidentally, those blades are not for steel, judging by what it says on the side of the blade: non-ferrous metal and plastics only. We used abrasive cutoff discs in the Delta saw for steel, and they worked fine. As an added bonus (in terms of peace of mind), abrasive wheels are a little more forgiving than 80 pieces of silicon carbide (which are just waiting for an opportunity to remove a finger). Another surprising problem is blade deflection. If you've got a long piece of stock, and someone is holding the end, it's very easy to accidentally apply a side load to the blade as it's making the cut. Not only does this cause perpendicularity errors, it risks damaging the blade, and puts an unexpectedly large hole in the removable plug in the table. Given all of that, I very much like the idea of a saw that doesn't require much human interaction, other than to push down. And find the right blade—the benefits outweigh any reasonable cost. |
Re: Tool Advice: Cutting Aluminum
Personally, I like the horizontal bandsaw. Properly set up and maintained, they will cut square enough. Quieter and safer than the miter saw too. If you are set on using a miter saw, I can't agree more with the statements about clamping the work. The other thing to know is that the right blade makes a big difference in both safety and cut quality. Here is a link I found about hook angle. A blade with a high hook angle meant for soft wood, this is what you'll find cheap at the big box store, is much more likely to grab the work. More teeth usually means a smoother cut as well and increases cost. Buy a good blade once, don't abuse it and it will save you money in the long run.
Here's a link about hook angle: https://woodtechtooling.com/FreudToo...dep12Hook.html Ivan |
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-Brando |
Re: Tool Advice: Cutting Aluminum
A cold saw is certainly the correct tool to use, and I would suggest that any team doing much aluminum cutting get one regardless of the "high" cost.
I cut aluminum on my light duty 10" miter box saw for years with no trouble, the in the period of about a month blew up three $90 aluminum-cutting blades on my saw, usually with spectacular results in terms of throwing pieces of aluminum around the shop. By blow up, I mean that up to 1.4 of the carbide tipped teeth were stripped off the blade. These were high-quality blades with the correct hook angle for cutting aluminum. I finally narrowed the cause down to worn bearings in the saw which allowed the blade to move around a bit, allowing the teeth to grab in the stock. The last time it happened, the piece of flying aluminum angle hit my hand, fortunately doing no damage more than a couple of nicks, but I sat down and had a little talk with myself and decided if I was going to cut aluminum, I would rather spend my $1200 on a cold saw to do the job correctly than spend several thousand dollars in the emergency room getting my hand put back together. Every mentor needs to come to the same conclusion and recognize that they would rather spend the funds to properly equip the shop rather than having a student go through life missing part of a hand or an eye. While a cold saw has capacity limitations, and most run on three-phase current, Grizzly and Jet make 9 and 10 in. saws that are reasonably priced for what you get, make very accurate cuts (I was introduced to cold saws in an industrial engraving shop where one was used to cut engraving blanks our of hardened steel with a precision of a few thousands of an inch parallel on all surfaces). They beat bandsaws for speed and accuracy any day of the year. If you must use an electric miter-box saw to cut aluminum, get one with chop action, not one with chop and slide action. You just don't have enough control over the pulling action needed to carefully cut with a sliding saw. The blade rotation makes this a climbing cut, pulling the blade forward into and up on the aluminum. While this action is OK for wood, as with a radial-arm saw, it is dangerous to try to hold the blade back as you cut aluminum when the blade is trying to pull itself through the aluminum. Dr. Bob (45 years of machining experience and I still have all my eyes and fingers) |
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I'm interested to learn about cold saws. I notice that they turn very slowly, around 60 rpm. How long do they take to cut through something like an 80/20 1" extrusion? Are the cheaper ($1,100) ones okay or do you need to spend more than that? Do you still pull down on the blade or does it do that feeding automatically? Are there any special skills we'd need to teach the students?
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A cold saw does spin very slow, which makes it slightly less intimidating (maybe a plus for a hesitant student). -Assuming you are cutting properly, the speed is on par with horizontal band saws. -I can't speak for the cheaper ones, maybe someone else here has some experience with those. -Yes you still pull down on the blade. -As far as skill required, a cold saw is a very simple tool to use. Very similar in setup and procedure as a miter saw without the the loud noise and fast blade rotation. -Brando |
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-Brando |
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Dale,
At Skunkworks we use both types of Miter Saw and find the non-sliding one can hold better tolerance. It is a screamer though... so be prepared for eveyrone in the shop to have ear protection... (I am sure you already know this) On occasion we also cut to length on a bandsaw or use a hacksaw... and then take it for the final cut on the miter saw. We have a standing tradition of a "cut monitor" in our shop. This monitor is an adult mentor that supervises the use of the big cutting tools. (Table Saw, Chop Saws, Mill, Lathe..) This gives two sets of eyes on a cutting operation and the cut monitor's main job is to make sure that proper clamping technique and other safe methods are being used... Students normally don't use the chop saws ... and never use the table saw... For plate and such we use a waterjet... For pieces that need better precision... (I certainly envy the person above that stated they could hold .005" on a miter saw...) We cut big and finish on a big disc sander... that cleans up the saw tooth marks and with a sturdy table... can be very precise... |
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Thanks Bob,
Team 1540 has a long tradition of being completely student built so I need a general purpose aluminum cutting tool that is fairly safe and that doesn't need 100% supervision. Often times I'm the only mechanical mentor in the lab so I can't monitor every cut. We've used a 12" miter saw for six years but I worry about the safety aspects of that tool as has been discussed. As good as our training is, I can't be sure every single cut is set up perfectly and that the feed rate is perfect. Our lab is one big 1500 sq ft open space so noise is also a consideration. Our miter saw can easily hit 110db and truly is annoying. Right now I'm leaning toward a cold saw or horz bandsaw. We have a vertical band saw, belt & disc sanders, and a table saw as well. I'm the only one we allow to use the table saw, however, so it only gets used when no other tool will do. |
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The $1100 cold saws will do just fine. They may not be quite as precision as the more expensive ones, but mostly the differences are cosmetic. As with many of the lower-priced tools, the castings are a bit rough, but the bearing surfaces are fine, the blades are the same, motor torque and speed are the same, etc.
Cold saws run very slowly, since they are on a massive gear-head drive. The slow speed means monstrous amount of torque which translates into cutting force. Also, they have many very sharp hardened teeth. I have not had good experience having them resharpened. But the cost of a new blade isn't much different from a 96 tooth carbide-tipped blade that you would use on a miter box saw. In my experience, cold saws cut stock like 8020 much faster than a bandsaw and give a much better finish on the cut. What's more, they cut cold roll steel about as fast as they cut aluminum. Cold saws come with a vise that holds the stock tightly. Some hold the stock on both sides of the blade, some only clamp one side; both work well. You have to pull down on the handle which rocks the saw over onto the stock. The head is spring loaded to help control the motion and assist in returning the head to the upright position. There is a clam-shell blade guard which opens as the saw comes down, helping to keep fingers in their proper place attached to hands. I've never had a cold saw buck, grab, or throw parts. They are very comfortable tools to use. And remember, they are cheaper than a trip to the emergency room! This, after all, is the correct way to judge the true cost of a tool such as this. Dr. Bob |
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The cutting speed was indeed one of my questions. At least our vertical bandsaw would take a long time to get though 80/20 extrusion. If the cold saw is faster that would make my choice easy. Both are roughly the same price.
I don't have 220VAC available so I was looking at this saw from Grizzly or the Jet version. Any experience out there with these? Both end up being around $1,000 delivered. For those with 220VAC available there's a nicer option from Grizzly for basically the same price. |
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Ours is a 18 TPI generic bimetal blade. Our bandsaw is one of those less expensive JET wood/metal units. It's running on it's slow speed but I don't recall what that is. All I know is it can take 45 seconds or so to get through a 1" 80/20 section. Maybe a different blade is in order?
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-Brando |
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We have what is quite frankly a terrible quality vertical bandsaw, but with good Starrett bimetal 10-14 variable tooth blades it rips through solids in the 1" range. The problem is keeping the blade in good condition. It's very easy to dull or strip the teeth with improper usage. |
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A new blade is certainly in our future, then. Any advice on how to prevent it from getting damaged besides not making turns too tight?
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There are 3 common causes of dull blades in my experience.
Cutting steel on a bandsaw that has a blade speed appropriate for wood/aluminum/plastic Cutting thick stock with a fine toothed blade Cutting thin stock with a very coarse blade. You can get a stick of wax like lubricant that you touch to the blade prior to usage that helps blade life a bit as well. |
Re: Tool Advice: Cutting Aluminum
Either the Jet or Grizzly cold saws should do fine. Mine is a Grizzly, but the 10 in. version, floor mounted, 220 v. single phase.
I think either would work fine (they may both be made in the same factory). What counts is the blade. At 9 in. you should do fine, and this one is bench mounted, though you can find a nice metal stand for it if you want to have it stand alone in your shop. My bandsaw blades come from my local saw sharpening shop. They are specifically made for cutting metal, though I run them at slow speed on my home-made 14 bandsaw. They cut aluminum fine, but my saw runs too fast to cut steel. If I try, it eats up the blades. I have a slower speed option on my bandsaw, but rarely use it since I have to reconfigure the belts. Look for a local saw shop to make up your bandsaw blades (they cut from stock, weld and anneal the joint to any length you want). Dr. Bob |
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Just to close the loop we did end up getting this Jet Cold Saw. I had never heard of Cold Saws before this thread so I wanted to thank all of you who sent me in that direction. It is SO nice to not have to worry about pieces of aluminum flying around the lab. It's great to not have everyone hold their ears whenever a cut is being made. It's a bonus to not have the ground covered with chips (they get trapped in the liquid coolant tray below the saw). And it's nice peace of mind for all of our team members to walk out with as many fingers as they walked in with.
It's the best $1,000 we've spent. |
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