How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

Maybe Mr. George Bush was not so uninformed when he pushed for No Child Left Behind. This is not a discussion on NCLB, but it was a result of low test scores nation wide. May be I am just stuck in a bubble of education right now, I consider any ACT score under 30 and SAT score under 2000 as "bad". Now it may shock you that the national averages are significantly lower than I have even heard of anyone getting.

National ACT Averages (2010)
Now, the scores with the most kids
Look at that math score. 180,723 kids got a score of 16 on the Math section.

National SAT Averages (2010)
I find those figures appalling. Now, how can those averages be so low? Is it the nature of the tests themselves? Is it the fabric of how the educational system run? Are they mostly due to socioeconomic situations? How can we fix this problem?

Sources:
http://www.act.org/news/data/10/pdf/...utm_medium=web

http://professionals.collegeboard.co...report-cbs.pdf

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

I wouldn't necessarily conflate NCLB-mandated testing with university-entry tests like the SAT and ACT. They're aimed at different things.

The impetus to perform well on the college tests lies first and foremost with the student: their future will almost certainly depend on it. As for the NCLB testing, depending on the jurisdiction, a passing mark may not have any effect on the student's promotion to the next grade, or their eventual admission by a university. Those tests are primarily a way to measure schools and other administrative entities, and as a result, the schools are the ones that take them most seriously.

Nevertheless, you're right to wonder what methodological issues might be affecting the statistics, and right to question the policies that govern the education system.

Incidentally, as far as NCLB is concerned, it was bad policy, but with reasonable intentions. The key flaw was assuming that performance on standardized tests would necessarily be an accurate predictor of students' knowledge. This is only true to the extent that you hold everything—and in particular, the curriculum—constant. As soon as you adjust your teaching style and methods to focus on the testable items, without also revising your definition of knowledge to focus on the test content, you've introduced a confounding effect.

One example of this might be a breadth-for-depth tradeoff: students become more proficient in the types of language skills required on their test, but spend less time being exposed to a variety of literature, or practicing different writing styles. If this increased their test scores by 2%, did that curriculum change make the students 2% smarter (in terms of language)? It seems obvious that it probably wouldn't have, yet this is an expectation against which the schools are being measured. (Note that it isn't inconceivable that there actually was a benefit to the new teaching method, measured against a constant standard—maybe 0.4%, to pick a number for illustrative purposes.)

The other glaring flaw with NCLB is that it takes funding away from schools that score poorly. Given that change and improvement tend to cost money, this is exactly the wrong move. It comes from a misguided belief that it would be irresponsible to throw good money after bad—but that's just folk wisdom substituting for an actual understanding of whether fiscal irresponsibility was actually involved in a school's lack of success. The architects of NCLB in effect blamed low educational outcomes on mismanagement, and therefore tried to punish the bad managers by cutting their funding. Unfortunately, they never figured out a rigourous way of determining whether the management was doing a good or a bad job in the first place—and their proxy, student test scores, is a terrible approximation in a substantial number of circumstances.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

While I also hate NCLB, it's not because it caused low SAT/ACT scores. Both tests are curved (based on a standard distribution, hence the median scores having the most recipients), and the reason the average scores are average is because the College Board and ACT, Inc have chosen to curve the tests to make those the average scores.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

The international average for math is 587 and writing is 510, only the critical reading is below Americans' average. International students are taking the same tests; why are they "better" at it than Americans?

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

The SAT and ACT are tests for entry into American universities, the majority of applicants to which are American. The pool of international test-takers is much smaller and far more self-selecting than domestics. Honestly, I'm surprised the average international scores aren't much higher than they are.
In some US high schools, all students (even those not planning on attending college) are forced to take the test, and how motivated do you think they are to do well? They probably skew the numbers a bit.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

Smarter how? There are many forms of intelligence in this world. Not all of them are related to books. Some people know language. Some people know math. Some people know people. Some people know other things. When discussing something like this, just be aware that a part of the reason some students don't do well on these tests are because they are busy with other things in life. Perhaps the only way to improve test scores are to remove some of these distractions. They range from troubled neighborhoods to family issues. Any restructuring of the education system will have minimal impact unless you pair it with various programs to directly motivate the individual student. School life and home life both impact the student equally.

Jason

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

Please be sure to separate the test score from the value of the person: failure to do so can lead to some bad things for society. PM me for examples from history if you can't think of any.

Not everyone is smart, but you don't have to be in order to survive and flourish in this world. You don't need a PhD to dig a ditch nor do you necessarily want a PhD digging one, but ditches still need to be dug.

What is more important than raw intelligence is a strong work ethic. I can guarantee success to someone willing to work for it, just as I can guarantee failure to someone who believes work is unnecessary for success.

Funny how our little robot team emulates life.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

First way to fixing education is smaller class sizes. I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

Another way would to make the teaching profession more enticing to industry professionals, and easier to get started in. The bureaucracy, red tape, and cost a person must go through to become a teacher is ridiculous.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

Michigan public school students are required to take the ACT as part of our state standardized testing (MME). Based on my personal experience with my classmates, probably about 1/4 of my classmates took the test seriously (most of them utilizing study aids or taking classes), and the remaining 3/4 couldn't care less. I would bet that the 1/4 who cared scored far higher than those who didn't. I think that part of the problem is that many students don't see reason to score well: it could be that standards are not set in the home, they don't plan on attending college, there aren't social pressures to conform to, they simply don't care about their future yet, etc. If we found ways to improve motivation from a younger age, I'm sure that general education (NOT just test scores) would improve as a whole. Personally, I think that a more applied, personal education (showing students WHY they should know the material that they're being taught, and giving some real-life examples) is one of the solutions.

I couldn't agree more. I felt that the learning environment was far better in my 20-student Humanities class than in my 29-student Pre-calculus class. Unfortunately, as school budgets shrink, the size of mandatory couses only grows.

One of my friends initially scored an 18 on his ACT. Another one of my friends scored a 36. I scored a 29. Like a lot of universities, I consider a 23 to 25 to be a good, average score. My high school's averages were very close to the national ones, and our district prides itself on being consistently ranked one of the top in the nation (which I have issues with, but that's not a rant for here). Back to the friends above...they going to a respectable state university as a music major and to Harvard, respectively. What scores are considered "normal" or "good" to a person depends on the social norms in their area, as shown by the differences in our views.

-----

All that being said, I am of the opinion that the ACT is a horrible way of determining a person's education/intelligence, and should only be used for that purpose when other indicators are also being looked at (such as GPA, social concerns, and district-wide numbers).

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

If the SAT is supposed to be a metric to compare students, shouldn't the average be kept around 500 at most? Otherwise, how are you going to tell who is excelling and who is behind? I read about a test that got rid of their out-of-context questions(such as analogies) and added in-context questions. This was a more accurate indicator of the skills needed to excel in society. This is just one of the many things SAT makers need to consider doing. Also, part of the reason test scores are low is because the strategies promoted to take the SAT. They suggest to only answer questions your confident about and thats good if your not comfortable with a subject. However, if you are comfortable with the subject matter you should answer every question. I had a friend that was taking BC calculus in high school and scored a 500 on math his first time around. I gave him this advice and he went up to 720. This just shows one of the flaws in society. Not only do we have a one-size-fits-all test, but we also promote a one-size-fits-all strategy to take it.

Considering many people commenting how poor the test is at testing academic skill, how would you test it? How would you change the test?

I would change the math questions to involve more applicable word problems and less that don't make sense. I would add some multiple choice questions that asked about math theory rather then just math practice. That way we can accurately tell how many people knew the approach. Questions such as, which method of factoring would be appropriate for this problem? For english, I would get rid of words that nobody has used. Usually they just test for who prepared for the SAT rather then who knows the word. I would combine the english and the writing into one test. They are both part of the same subject and should be dealt with as such. The writing should have more papers to write and be shorter in length. That way you can ensure each person talks about something they know and something they don't.

Full disclose: I got a 800 on the math, 580 on the english, and 420 on the writing. The math wasn't because I was great at math rather because I am fast and cautious with my math, english was largely luck(I guessed on half of the analogies), and the writing was because it was a very weird topic for me to write about. I state this because it shows clear implications into my feelings of the test and should show any bias that I may have.

Jason

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

How do we make American Students Smarter?

It takes more than a school system, more than a teacher, more than fancy standardized tests. There is an old saying, "It takes an entire town to raise a child". It applies here as well.

It has to done on multiple fronts such as the following (IMHO).

1) Parent accountability and responsibility to ensure their children do attend, do homework, and the parents HELP and participate in the education of their children. Granted that's not always possible, broken homes, etc.. , but lack of parent responsibility and accountability should be the exception, not the norm. Perhaps a "Bad Parent Tax" should be levied.

2) Give Teachers greater ability to enforce greater classroom control and discipline. The teachers hands are tied today. Granted teachers should not be disciplinarians, but at least give them ability to maintain order without fear of reprisal, or child abuse charges,etc.. Too many times have I heard of one or a few disruptive students impeding the teachers ability to teach those that truly want to learn. This disruption must be stopped cold. All parents and students sign a wavier giving teachers this ability.

3) Raise Standards. The standards are far to low today. The passing test results have more to due with "funding" than with actual educational success. It's truly sad that so many that I interview today, even college graduates can't even write a complete sentence, and have even worse verbal skills. Believe me this area is my own personal worst, but what I see today is even poorer than my own.

4) End or Modify NCLB. While concept is worthy the implementation is faulty. Too many students are basically pushed through without being given the proper education in order to simply to fulfill this objective. It is not achieving it's goal, it's have the opposite effect.

Just for the record, I'm not a teacher.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

I suggest all to watch "Waiting for Superman"
http://www.waitingforsuperman.com/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1566648/

A great documentary on the current school system and its flaws.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

While not a discussion on NCLB I do want to make a trivia point.

NCLB wasn't a Bush'ism. It was a bipartisan effort that was a pet project of President Bush and Senator Kennedy. It was something Kennedy wanted to do for a long time and when Bush entered the Presidency they had a common project to work on. This is something that pundits conveniently forget.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

Speaking from my experience only...
You want to make young people better students, learn more and be "smarter"? You have to give them a reason to do so. There needs to be a light at the end of the tunnel, a carrot, a reward. There are those few that see getting better grades than those around them as enough of an incentive. Some like the approval of family, parents, and teachers. Some want to attend a better university and so they will work like mad to get better grades. For the rest, none of these things work. It was not until I saw that electronics was fun and that it pays, that I started to really get good grades. I thought you needed to learn history to be able to answer questions on quiz shows. English, why? I already speak and write. It was not until I decided they were important for me did I start to really work hard and even fight for grades I deserved. And yes, everyone told me all of the above, "you need to get better grades because..." "Alan can do better, he just choses not to..." "You want to go to a good university don't you?" Well now I know, I needed to work hard to allow me to choose my career, not have one thrust on me. I enjoy what I do everyday and thank God that I found this out just in time.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

I have been told I was a unique case by my school counselor. I guess I just was not the type for public education. I am the type of person that disregards grades, rank, awards, positions and stuff like that. Some would call me an undisciplined rebel. Sure, that sounds like me in some perspective. I used to scoff at those kids that would compete for the higher grade. In my eyes, they were doing it all wrong. The purpose of education is NOT to just get good grades; I knew this from an early age. I still facepalm at those kids who play the system to get the highest GPA or rank in school. It is ridiculous what some kids would do. I was appalled by that type of behavior; yet it is those kids that turn to me and scold me for reading about quantum physics instead of reading about capacitance. I know I have my flaws, I know that I won't get into a good college if I keep this attitude up. I have to play by the rules of the game or I will be purged out of the system. Also for awards, I personally think awards are ridiculous. The person receiving the award knows his or her accomplishments and dies not need a committee of people to confirm for him/her.

Sir, I am just like how you were. I have been receiving the comments "David can do better than this, he just needs to try harder."; "David is a smart boy, his grades do not show it". According to the system, I am dumber than I am on paper. That, I believe is my problem. I remember I was that kid that finishes tests 10 minutes faster than everyone then get a 100% on it. That was mostly due to the fact that all I ever read was nonfiction books, often higher than my grade level. I read extensively about biology, geology, anything science related. Then came high school, where they took things a little farther. Sure, I would still be acing every single biology test, but I still only had a C or B because I never did the work. In fact, I was the only student that year that got over a 100% on the final yet I still ended up with a C in the class because of my ignorance. I never did the work, and when I did, it was done half assed, bare minimum. That habit is not a good thing to have. Then I had that same attitude the next year, including during robotics. if anyone remembers, I was the kid that played Madden on the computer the whole time during competition. My grades were also terrible by then. Junior year came and went. I still have not recovered from my bad habits. But I plan on changing that. I spent the summer so far studying calculus and physics with calculus.

Also, a side note, thank you for suggesting Bradley. I will be going to an information meeting in 2 weeks.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

Another fundamental flaw of education is that to a large degree we group all the students together at random as if they are all equals. They are not. Imagine how much further ahead we'd be if we took all the bright students and put them together, and didn't have to slow them down by placing them in classes with failing students. I think sometimes equality goes too far.

And regardless of smartness or intelligence, what about the simple desire to be there? I'd venture to guess approximately half of high-school students don't want to be in school or don't see the point. Why should the rest of everyone have to deal with them? Put them in their own school and let everyone else move on. Of course, I have no idea what the societal impacts of a such an idea would be.

There should be more schools for people who are determined to learn. A place where those with a desire to learn do not have to be surrounded by the ones without such a desire. One of the reasons FIRST works so well is that all the people who do it want to. The same can't be said for most high school classes.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should leave behind mediocre or poor students. What I am saying though is that it makes no sense for a Ferrari to be stuck behind a dump truck on a single-lane road.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

Sir, I've noticed that you are a teacher at a magnet school. Would you say that the magnet system works in effectively producing high performance students? Now, I had no choice but to go to the school I go to right now; I did not even qualify for your school in Middle School. Was the requirements a C average? Yea, I did not have a C average in middle school. Now, I do not want to really start comparing, but are magnet schools actually better than regular public schools?

A side note: Have we met in person?

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

David,
One thing I have learned over the years is that there are very few "dumb" people. There is a lot of people that are about the same degree of "smart". The difference is how focused they are. If one constantly looks at the stars, inevitably they will trip over their untied shoelaces. If you are one who chooses to look at everything at once, then it is difficult to be great in one area. What you need to learn is how to focus in the area needed for the moment. Get the job done and then go back to a wider view. Think about Einstein... He noticed that the bell and clang of the street car changed as it approached him and then passed him. We know it as the Doppler effect now, but his view was wide open. Then he concentrated down onto the effect and looked for it in other areas he was interested in. As he concentrated, he realized that light coming towards us shifted up in frequency and that moving away from us shifts down.
The unfortunate issue in all of this is testing. It is hard to concentrate on just the material needed for the test. However, you need to train yourself to do so. Testing is an imperfect system but it is the one in use. If you want to do something with your life (and it sure sounds like it does!) then you have to make the decision to change and adapt. You and I both know you are capable of exactly what those students in the top 10% are currently doing. Figure out a way to get motivated and do the work. Believe me, you will be much happier in the end.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

David, Al is right. I am sure you know this by now but you are not going to be able to change the system fast enough to benefit you. That means to get anywhere you need to play the system. When you get to college it only gets worse, at a highly competitive school your GPA will be key to your success. I know you posted earlier saying you disliked students that play the system to boost their GPA but trust me improving your GPA opens doors.

Most top engineering schools will say they don't have a "Cut Off" GPA or SAT score for admissions, and it is true that these schools turn down people without standing test scores but if your SAT scores are in the 1200's (1800's by the new test) you are going to have to have some impressive accomplishments to get into a top tier school (75% of accepted MIT students score over 1410/2080).

I went to what I consider a very good engineering school (though our 75th percentile for test scores is about the same as MITs 25th) at RPI which is notorious for not inflating GPAs. If you don't take the time to do the work and maintain a GPA above 3.0 (or higher if you want to go to grad school) you will regret it. I had a good GPA and had no trouble finding a job after school. I have a friend who had a Sub 3.0 GPA and had his resume handed back to him at the career fair because many companies will not even look at candidates that don't maintain a 3.0+. While some may think that being smart, hardworking and capable will get you a job somewhere and you can work up based on your merits (not your GPA) from there you are right but only to an extent. Leadership development programs at top companies like GE, BAE, Lockheed, and MITRE require GPA's of 3.5+ and are worth every pit of the work, after completing a 2-5 year rotational program you are fast tracked in engineering management, the pay scale is exponentially higher for these jobs, mean while your classmates with lower GPA's (even with 3.0+) find themselves working their way up through Engineer 1, Engineer 2 and so one, a high GPA can easily mean a 5 year head start in your career.

The system may suck but if you are smart enough to identify the system you should be smart enough to see that working with it is the best way to get the most out of yourself.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

Or if you're smart enough to transfer to a school that doesn't do grade deflation on the scale that RPI does. :P

Some students take thousands of dollars of summer classes to bump their 2.9 GPAs to 3.0 GPAs. It's that important for your first job, apparently.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

GPA: Yep, it's usually important for the first job. If you don't have that 3.0+, you'll have a mountain to climb to get in. Some companies want a 3.2+. At least, that's how it tends to be in the engineering world. I can't speak for non-engineering jobs on this.

Regarding the SAT comments earlier: They did ditch the analogies (with which decision I was mildly disappointed); now they need to do the same thing with the essay. (Or, make sure that you can't grade it from across the room based on length--there are people (not official SAT graders) who can do that, and never read the essay, and get the grade "right", as in the same as the SAT grader.)

Back to the initial question: Smaller class sizes, better motivation techniques than "I'm required to be here", and toughen the minimum graduation requirements by a class or two in certain areas. (Why toughen? Because the students will rise to the challenge.)

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

Thanks, to both of you for enlightening me on this. Students have been told that GPA and smaller classroom size are important but as I read through this thread I find the answers of why GPA and classroom sizes are important are subtle. I must admit that I'm in a similar scenario davidthefat is in.

As to how can we make students smarter, I'm certain the implementation of honors and AP classes into school serve the purpose of allocating intelligent students so they don't get alienated in regular courses. But depending on one's perspective, it's not always ideal. For example, I worked hard in my classes but I don't always achieve an A in an honors or AP course. But because I strive for perfection (I realize that I shouldn't do that anymore), I envy the people who get the best grades. I would try to circumvent the system by self-studying for an AP Exam and taking a college course through my local community college, though I'm limited to only one course.

As others have said, there is no universal approach to education but there are incentives to help establish motivation to succeed like FIRST.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

It is cognitive dissonance to say, "I can have a bad GPA" and "I can work my way up quickly once I get a job." Fact of the matter is a job is hard work... harder work than what you do in school. If you can't work hard enough in school to get a 3.0+, why would you think you'll magically work so much harder to climb the ladder when you get a job? A 3.0+ is proof that you can apply yourself and do decent quality work. Watching youtube for several hours instead of doing that path critical work isn't going to looked well upon by your manager... :rolleyes:

The "Oh, I'd apply myself if I liked what I was doing" doesn't make a whole bunch of sense to me either. Even if you land a job doing exactly what you want to do (and honestly, the chances of this are pretty slim) there will be occasions where you don't like what you're doing, and people will still expect you to do good work.

There are lots of old engineers and thus lots of opportunities for young, hardworking engineers. The ball is always in your court. Take advantage of it. (I'm with James, I consider all the opportunities RPI has given me to be a distinctive #firstworldproblem)

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

Today I've just started "The New Cool", for the 6th time, and reading a quote from Woodie Flowers made me rethink the entire schooling process, and the FIRST process. The exact quote (below) explains how in schools we are "training" students, and in FIRST, we are "educating" students.

"Training and education are very different. Training is a commodity. Education is the part that confers comparative advantage. Much of what we call engineering education is in fact training and poorly done. Learning calculus is training. Learning to think using calculus is education; learning spelling and grammar is training. Learning to communicate is education; learning a CAD (computer-aided design) program is training. Learning to design is a much more complex, sophisticated thing; learning the parts is training. Learning from synthesis and whole is education. It's not clean. The boundary is clearly fuzzy. Once you could be trained to be a professional if you knew things, that was enough, but information is ubiquitous, you can't have an advantage in society because you know something."

Dr. Flowers, I couldn't have said it better. Obviously, our current school system has us "learn" things, while systems such as FIRST have us "educated".

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

Another detriment of the system placed upon education that I don't think has been mentioned is that colleges also get affected when a student does not show his or her full potential due to the fault of system, they don't get to learn everything about the student.

Forgive me, but I totally forgot this book even exists! (I have seen the book before) I'll consider buying the book to read it.

Also, another thing you reminded me of is this video shown in the 2011 Kickoff featuring Woodie Flowers. One thing he said was very similar to the quote you provided, though very general but nevertheless still inspiring!

Thanks for the link. This is still relevant today.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

That whole book—Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!—is very good. Also consider What Do You Care What Other People Think?, another collection of autobiographical material by Feynman.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

Great topic & some very well thought out responses! Let me preface my responses with that in general I don't like the concepts of NCLB or Standardized Testing. Both have many flaws, but as many point out, it is the current "system" that we have, and if we agree that many of these policies fail to achieve the true objective, we need to propose a better way. There have a been a lot of great points here, but I don't think any of us has proposed a good enough "solution" such that we could replace either policy completely.

In general I agree here, though its a double edged sword right? The move to pull funding assumes that the school is motivated by funding, and will strive hard to get it back. Where-as just like any question of motivation, it doesn't work in a lot of cases. I would think many schools would just whine and complain that they can't do anything without enough funding, and just throw up their hands blaming the system. Yet we see constant examples of "where there is a will there is a way". If they really really wanted that funding back, they could find ways to work harder, motivate their staff and students. I can't say I agree with the funding pull, but its the only control/incentive the government currently has.

I'm not sure I actually agree with this. In college I was fortunate to have Physics and Chemistry teachers that were absolutely amazing and intriguing. Every other class they would blow something up, hang from the ceiling, throw a bowling ball off a ladder... etc etc. They knew how to grab our attention and make science "real". Yet these were class sizes of lecture hall proportions, nearly 100 students per class. Then take a step back to my honors class versions of Chemistry and Physics in high school, which were classes under 20, and probably didn't compare to what I really took in in college. While I know there is far too much need for the supply, I think engaging teachers & curriculum can actually overcome class sizes. If we stick with our standard methods of "I stand here and talk, you sit there and listen", I agree, class sizes need to be smaller. But I think there are better ways, curriculum that is more engaging.

I think these are all great points. I can't say I think a Bad Parent Tax would be the right implementation (look how well money has motivated the failing schools as discussed above). But overall these are great points... HOW exactly we do them I think is the hard part.

It sounds like you are coming from the perfect position to help us understand those who aren't motivated by the current system. What in fact WOULD motivate you? And if we had to keep the current system, what would have helped you "see the light" earlier? As Im sure it will be a while before any sweeping changes take effect.

I am guessing this happens as people seem to complain about it, but it wasn't exactly my experience. From early on I was labeled one of the "honors" students. I did higher SRA cards than anyone in my class, I had to take all three levels of reading in my class just to give me "enough workload". I was placed in the TAG (Talented and Gifted) group where I got to meet with other "smart" kids a few times a week, pulling me out of my normal class. High schools have Honors and AP and College courses that "separate" the high performers from the low. I do think seeing some kids struggle, even some of my closest friends gave me a different perspective on things. I realized that I was "fortunate" enough that things came easy, and I wouldn't trade that. But I agree that it is good to give the different levels of students places to achieve differently.

I always had difficulty with this. Comparing GPA's side by side just doesn't do the trick, and I specifically learned this when I was recruiting. The caliber of students coming out of Engineering schools like RPI, Clarkson, RIT, etc with 3.0 GPA's was much much higher than many coming from the state schools, so it was frustrating that HR placed a cutoff on us that we could not hire below a 3.0. I knew kids with 2.8's that were much smarter (and I would rather work with) than those with 3.5's just because they chose a "better" school that had harder GPA's.

The first point is my BINGO point :) The second seems like a good idea as well, though there will be some resistance when it first starts.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

I think anyone can vouch for this problem. Though, it goes further then just comparing between schools. As long as the academic environment is different from the work environment, the ability of the student in college only approximates how well they will do in the work place. It is a very rough approximation at best. It is very hard to understand how that individual student got that particular GPA. For me, I've always gotten my grades through a natural talent and strategy when preparing for a test. I currently have a 3.4 GPA. I know a friend who does not have that natural talent, but he has a similar GPA because he is always about networking. He knows how to find the right person for any situation. If faced with a problem he can't figure out, he always knows who to go to for an explanation. In all honesty, which of us "did better"? We have the same GPA but I'd be willing to bet that he'd do better then me at most jobs. Simply because he has more of the skills needed in the work place while I have more of the skills needed in the academic environment. If it were me, I'd hire him before myself. Not a doubt in my mind.

Jason

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

http://i.imgur.com/NoI5H.jpg

I saw that in reddit today. Something to think about.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

A lot of good points have already been made, so I would just like to mention one large part of it that doesn't get enough attention. Education starts at home. It is the responsibility of the parent(s) or guardian(s) of a child to ensure they are prepared to come to school every day and try their hardest.

You can say as much as you want about the quality of educators (something I could spend a whole afternoon on), class size, how data is gathered, curriculum difficulty, lowering standards, and so on, but the root of the problem is not reached when you only examine 25% of a students time. Education does not start when the first bell rings, nor does it end when the last bell sounds.

An educator is only responsible for a child roughly 6 hours a day. What about the other 18? In today's society there are simply too many households where kids don't get enough supervision. When you live in a single parent household, a household were both parents work extremely demanding jobs, or with parents who simply don't care, kids don't receive the attention required they might need to get homework done or stay out of trouble.

Having a grandmother and two aunts who taught in public schools their entire working careers, I heard this firsthand. When I ask them about slipping quality of education in the United States they always start with the same thing. Parents just don't get involved (the next thing would be their co-workers, but that's not my point). They expect the school to take care of every single educational need the child has. I heard the same things from my teachers going through the the public school system myself. I would frequently hear some variation of this sentence after teacher conferences: "thank you to the four of you whose parents showed up last night."

I fear the reason this does not get addressed more often is because, unlike other things which are merely nearly impossible to change, this is impossible to change. When 50% of marriages end in divorce, single parent households are inevitable. When it is now the norm for both parents to work, kids having too much unsupervised time is inevitable. When people expect the school to do everything, it is inevitable.

Another thought I had involves CBAs. A 9th grade geography teacher is much different than a 12th grade calculus teacher. They should be nowhere near same pay in my opinion. A CBA will undoubtedly push the pay of most teachers up, yet it seems like it harms the most important teachers and the hardest teachers to find. There is a reason why 300 people applied for a social studies position at my high school, yet only three people applied to be the new physics teacher the same year. I couldn't believe those numbers myself, but after I heard them the first time three separate people backed them up later on. This included the physics teacher who got hired out of that trio.

So, to answer your question shortly. We cannot fix it until parents get back involved with their children's lives.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

Today I read an article at Wired and was reminded of your post. It's about the Kahn Academy (rather long). Here's an interesting excerpt (emphasis mine):
Wouldn't want there to be a solution that allows an unfair advantage, would we? </sarcasm>

Quite true. In the last 5 years I've had 2 roomates and 1 close friend who taught/teach elementary school. One of the patterns I sorta realized from them venting about their day or discussing anonymous child A is that if the child was really struggling then usually the parents were very hands-off. In one (most likely rare) case the parent literally did expect her to teach her child better behavior and correct for mistakes at home.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

I have a couple points here, first, I'd encourage some view this video of a talk given by Sir Ken Robinson, and maybe some others of his talks. I like a lot of what he has to say on the problems with education, and I wish I knew how to fix them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U

Most testing schemes particularly those for getting into college test a very narrow view of intelligence. And I think the current education system leaves far too many students out in the cold.

I think that technical schools are highly underrated and ignored.

Such an opportunity would have helped both my father and myself. My father was a pretty average student in school, but has a great aptitude for mechanics. He had wanted to go into the technical/vocational school in his hometown, but was too average, they reserved this school for the kids that were too "dumb" to pass regular high school, they figured it would be good to just get them ready for menial work. I've learned a lot from him mostly how to work around a problem, things they never teach you at school, and I still learn things from him every time I see him, but the standardized tests of this day would probably judge him far below average. When we neglect to recognize this type of talent as a society, we only hurt ourselves.

My stint was a bit later in life. I enjoyed FIRST very much in high school, and all I really knew going into college was that I liked building stuff like this. Everyone I knew friends, family, people from FIRST that I spoke with, all said the same thing: Engineering. I guess it could have worked out, but it wasn't a good fit for me. I excelled in lab work, but barely managed a passing grade on tests. It felt like high school allover for me. In lab I was finished with my work quickly scoring top marks and then I would spend the rest of class helping the other students figure out a relatively simple circuit. Later in the week test time showed up, and these same kids that barely understood the principles of parallel vs. series circuitry were kicking my butt on circuit analysis and what have you. It wasn't until I was almost 3 years struggling into a degree in engineering that I was falling behind on did I find what it is I really wanted to do: Machining. I've always enjoyed the actual process of making things and not so much the process of mathing out the blueprints. But no one even mentioned this to me, when I initially spoke to many of the people I spoke with as a high school student about my interest in machining I received a lot of scoffs.

In fact now that I've found what I'm motivated in, I get a lot more scoffs from people who feel I'm not living up to potential. I'm studying environmental science because I've always found it an interesting field that I never attacked before because I was steered towards math because I was "talented" at it. I bought a mini lathe and small milling machine and have been learning the basics of machining. I'm starting my own business building custom projects. At the moment I'm starting it off with designing and building vintage styled tube guitar amps.

So what's my point in all this? Well school has mostly failed me. The stuff I work the hardest on learning and improving(machining and valve circuitry) will get me no where on a standardized test. They don't care about what I've spent most of my mental capacity to learn and as such would score me much lower than someone interested in the things the tests test. Likewise the smartest mathematician likely wouldn't have the foggiest clue on to safely much less accurately operate any of my machines.(not that they can't just that their training/knowledge base doesn't prepare them for it)

I'll leave you with a piece of advise I received from a traveling musician I worked sound for a few years ago. He told me "I'd take one hard working person of average intelligence over a dozen lazy geniuses any day of the week."

Work hard and show your value at whatever you do, those who value what you value will recognize you for it.

I apologize this post is a little longer than I originally intended.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

Chinese proverb, “Teachers open the doors, but you must enter yourself.” -

The OP had a set of metrics, SAT, ACT, etc scores to kick off the discussion.

Something to consider is the testing methodology and population. For example, here is Georgia it is common to use the comparison of Georgia SAT scores to other states to beat up political opponents. Georgia ranks near the bottom in SAT rankings.

A few years ago the president of SAT sent a well known famous letter (at least in Georgia) to the Governor or Superintendent of Education addressing this issue. Compared to other states, a relatively large percentage of students take the SAT. In some states only the "best and brightest" take the SAT and other areas a much larger and general population take it. This is a form of self-selection that causes distortions in ranking tables, and makes Georgia look comparatively bad.

Why low scores. Socioeconomic ? yes Ability and attitude of teachers ? yes performance management issues at the school district level ? yes parental and home issues ? yes cultural attitudes toward learning ? yes ( STEM and non-stem ) racial and demographic cultural attitudes ? yes

Every summer I have to stop and think about (a) why I participate in FIRST ?and (b) what is a metric of an acceptable outcome ? But, here is a small partial answer.

From an aggregate viewpoint, our team has regularly taken students with decent enough to pretty good 'overall backgrounds' and given them an opportunity to become engaged in something important, and then go to the next step, make really good career choices going into college, make really good decisions about how they view their future. We help students move from a very foggy view of their future into something defined, structured, tangible, exciting.

Our students had a meeting / briefing with the President of Georgia Tech and we were presenting our 'conversion' numbers to him. According to our math, if we could get the same 'conversion' rate in every school in Georgia, Georgia Tech would have to grow by 40 % or more. That is a huge growth number. Nationally the same would hold true for all high schools / universities.

Even then we are talking about harvesting a student population of 1 or 2 % of graduating seniors annually. What about the other 98 %

Get the students really excited about something (doesn't have to be STEM), reach out to the parent, to the community and get them involved, and we can make progress. The student/parent/community has to be a partner in education, not a passive recipient.

In about 1950 the average educational level of U.S. adults was about 8th grade. College graduates were very small portion of the population until after WW2 and the GI bill. 'Book' learning and college didn't happen for masses until the 2nd half of the 20th century.

National dropout rate are declining, but still way too high.

Cultural attitudes toward 'book' learning and STEM are improving ever so slightly.

Fix the culture - that helps the school move from being a day care / social welfare agency to a place of learning.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

While that may improve basic math capabilities, I don't see it helping to teach critical thinking, or encourage students to want to learn. Its a small drop in the bucket compared to the issues currently facing the educational system.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

Reported.

There hasn't been a team 23 since 1999 when they left for Battlebots.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

While this is probably not a legit post, I feel the need to comment anyhow.

On the contrary, I think we should be teaching students HOW to use calculators before they enter college. We've had them since the 1970s. It's fine to learn the fundamentals of arithmetic at an early age, but beyond that, it's useless to sit and do things manually when calculators are so readily available. I think people should be able to do simple computations and estimations in their heads, but there's no need to be doing long division on paper.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

I look at simple calculations as mental warmups. If your doing basic algebra, you should not be using a calculator. If your doing trig, you need a calculator. My main problem with calculators today is people's reliance on them. Sure, use them as a tool...but just as a tool. Not as a substitute. When it comes to tests, I use calculators for everything I can. When it comes to homework, I use calculators as little as I can. That is what I suggest to anyone that asks.(and some who don't). It just keeps your mind healthy and generally helps me work faster when it comes time for the test.

Jason

Note: Lets not turn this thread into a discussion of calculators. I'll be happy to have an in-depth discussion via PM to anyone that is interested.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

I have said this before but here goes... Calculators are just a tool. Tools make the work go faster so using calculators leaves you more time for studying other things. What we really need to do is find a good way to give students a reason to study and do well in school. Most of them have no inkling. I was an average student through high school, right in the middle of my graduating class. It wasn't until I was in college and paying most of my own way did I see a need to get what I paying for. When I realized two simple things, my grades shot up. 1. If I was paying out big bucks for school it was a wasted investment if I didn't try harder and do more and better studying. 2. If I was learning something I liked, I better do well at it or I wouldn't be able to do it everyday for the rest of my life. All during grade school and high school, I had no clue why I was being forced to study algebra, the French Revolution or English literature. At best I thought I would do well if I ever was on a game show.
However, I do know this. What worked for me, may not work for someone else. It might get the student thinking about what else might trigger him or her to study better, ignore the 'friend' who wants to lead them somewhere else, or piddle away the hours playing Warcraft or posting on Facebook. They need to learn that play can be a reward for working hard. While First does instill these ideals, it only hits a small audience. It does hit that group very effectively considering the high percentage of our students that are going off to higher education. I would guess that as many as half of our students enter the program with no thought of life after high school and end up excelling at university. We have to teach students that there is a light at the end of the tunnel and then turn it on for them. If there is one thing I have learned, there is relatively little difference in intelligence. The difference lies in some people being able to focus their energy in one direction at a time while the others focus in every direction or no direction.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

How can we make American students smarter? Make American students want to be smarter.

Isn't that why we're involved in FIRST?

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

Just like the old saying goes: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

I am not trying to discriminate anyone, but I believe we American students are spoiled. We live in the only super power left in this world. There are people out there that will literally KILL to get the opportunities we have in the States. Foreigners know how to pursue education like it's their only option. To most, it really is. Most of American students take it for granted, they see it as a right, not a privilege. Education should not be seen as a stepping stone to riches, but more as the liberation from ignorance.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

David I think I found a video that you would like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUMf7...ayer_embedded#!

There's a part in the beginning that shows how far the US fell in educational standings.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

Kids need to realize how technology affects everything in their own lives. If they see that progress in technology can make the world a better place for them to live,they may find a personal connection with the science world. Show them how technology improves things they use everyday, like video games, cars,computers, phones, ect. And also, we need to promote the same ideas that FIRST is trying to promote; the fact the science and technology IS fun.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

In the US education isn't a right or a privilege. It's mandatory.

One reason it seems that foreigners all take advantage, is because you don't see the others. Those that don't care stay home and no one notices or cares.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

What I mean by privilege is the fact that the student was fortunate enough to be born in a nation with free accessible public education. There are too many that do not have that privilege. While it is true that some might be too lazy to go to school, but did you consider the fact that many who want to get an education can not. Many have to stay home and help. That is how my mom was, she could not get an education above high school because in a family of 7, to sustain, she had to work. And this was in Korea, a developing country. Imagine the undeveloped countries, they can't even THINK about going to school because it is not accessible.

My dad had to jump through many hurdles to even go to school. The nearest school near where my dad used to grow up is miles away and they lived on a farm in Korea. In Korea, the farms are not like farms here either; farmers are one of the poorest people in Korea. Yet, my dad managed to get a masters and start working toward a higher degree, but the degrees don't matter here in the States. He works in construction now, to pay for my education. I myself have to jump many hurdles to get an education here in the states. The tuition here is ridiculous, I have to get a job to even afford a public state school's tuition.

This is why I am so critical about education. A lot of people I know do not understand education. They see it as this thing that you "have" to go get. But like I said, education is liberation from ignorance. And I can't believe this nation is even functioning. 55% of Engineering PhDs are from abroad, 45% of all PhDs are from abroad. The lower and secondary education system here is ridiculous; it is terrible. To have a democracy, you need an educated population. Most of the population gobbles up the propaganda that the media and the politicians put up. I mean LOOK! There is an educated man running for president who is very rational. Ron Paul gets less media attention than Donald Trump or Sarah Palin gets. It is propaganda, he challenges the status quo.


I am very sorry for the long, somewhat offensive to some, rant. But this is how I feel. If we do not get this country running straight, I don't know what would happen.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

"Smarter" Hmmm

Do you mean better educated (exposed to more, retaining more, able to put more into use later? ...)

Do you mean more creative (seeing or creating connections others miss, something else?)?

Do you mean better test takers?

Do you mean better (faster? better retention?) at absorbing new mental skills?

Do you mean better at recognizing and applying patterns?

Do you mean better at manipulating (or adapting to) their environments or other people to accomplish their goals?

A good first step in getting useful answers is thinking carefully about the questions you ask. I'm not sure that "How can we make American students smarter?" has an answer. To me, unless the intent is to uncover a very large multi-dimensional collection of answers, it seems to cast its net too broadly.

Blake
PS: I have met immigrants who tell me that we (North America) definitely should not assume that scores lower than other countries on standardized tests are a sign of getting the bigger picture wrong. Instead they believe that the on the whole, the resources we don't invest in standardized tests get wisely invested in other important activities. That doesn't mean that keeping up with Miss Lohan's comings and goings is a good use of a student's time. It does mean that we have to be careful to not substitute a handy set of measurements (test scores) for wisdom or common sense.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

Before getting too upset, take a look at some data:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index

Out of about 200 countries, the US is in the top 20 thus top 10% relative to Education Index. Within that measurement though, there is less than 2.5% difference between #1 and #20. Use this as your general education metric, and it would tell you overall, not the best, but not that bad in the grand scheme of things.

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.u...1/top-200.html
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_perce...s_a_PHD_degree
These metrics will hopefully address some of the upper bound education concerns. With only 3% of US population, and 1% of the world having a PHD, It would be fair to say that it is a minority percentage of the population. It is also that same minority that more than likely puts a high value of higher education. Because of the high value, they will likely apply and try to get into the best schools they can get into. As you can see, US schools tend to take up a large portion of the top 200 Universities in the World, and thus will likely attract a lot of outside talent. This is good as many will stay here in the US (really smart motivated people are a good asset to have in your country).

I am not saying that the education system is perfect, just probably not "terrible" or "ridiculous".

If your goal would be to improve the Education Index, then you would be working on the reducing the 3.2% of illiterate, and you canhelp them learn to read. There are a lot of literacy programs you could volunteer with if you are interested. I would also investigate the policies of countries with higher rankings. What are they doing that is working better? Sometimes others are just better at fudging the numbers, but often there are actual things they are doing that get better returns.

If your goal would be for a higher percentage of PHDs, then you would need to talk to the folks that are getting masters degrees, but not continuing on to get PHDs and understand their motivations. I would be one of those folks. Drop me a line sometime (for a singular data point).

I appluad you for looking up the PHD % for foreign vs. domestic (assuming you looked this up somewhere and did not just repeat another figure-heads talking point), but I would caution you to temper that argument. If the goal was to improve that percentage rate, one of the simplest solutions would be to put a cap on the amount of foreign students allowed to get their doctorates in the US. This would likely reduce the number that stay here, reduce the research that they perform here, reduce the cultural diversity at the universities, and likely cause several other negative impacts.

If your goal is to get more folks to go into technical fields, or want to get a higher level of education, then you should assist and inspire young folks to get excited about what they can do with that education. Possibly get involved with a program that is founded on the principles For Inspriation and Recognition of Science and Technology. I have heard there is a Dean Kamen guy working on some sort of program that has gotten thousands of people excited about Tech stuff.

I really like the topic and some of the thoughtful statements and ideas it has brought up.

To see if you are part of the solution, or part of the problem, the test for that would be pretty simple:
Have you inspired others to do better/more? Or have you chased folks away?

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

If anything the amount of PhDs is enourmously in favor of the US. I haven't checked your numbers but if we make up 45% of engineering PhDs and 55% of all PhDs we have way more PhDs per Capita than the res of the world, considering we make up less than 5% of the population.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

Take a little time to think about how briefly the vast majority of current North American family trees have existed, and ask yourself how this nation got to where it is today.

That might motivate you to either retract your rhetorical exclamation/question, or at least rephrase it (or not).

Blake

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

Honestly I'm getting a little tired of the xenophobia in this thread. Why is it a bad thing that a lot of foreigners are coming to the US to study? Doesn't that mean that our educational system is then superior because of the amount of extra work these students are going through just to start learning? Not to mention overcoming language barriers.

It's also important to understand the benefit for everyone when we involve other cultures. When students work together with those who have a different way of looking at the world, both are able to grow their own interpretation of the world to include an understanding of how others think. Perspective is important, and this thread needs some.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

Relevant
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Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

A college degree isn't everything. In my opinion we should be lowering the numbers of degrees obtained and upping the requirements while providing effective trades training for those with talent in areas besides "intellectual academics." Perhaps even bringing back the idea of craftsmen and artisans.

Additionally we could also mail a degree to everyone in the country. We'd be number one, but no one is any better for it. None of the fear mongering statistics hint at the actual problems in education, and no one is willing to actually change the system away from an industrialist method of running kids through the education factory.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

A degree means nothing; it is what the degree holder has learned that is important. Even more important is how he or she used it.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

So why are you yelling the sky is falling using that as a metric when you yourself admit that its a pointless metric?

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

Now, I think the higher education in the US is pretty darn fantastic, but the lower education is highly lacking. Perhaps the whole standard for checking for competent education is set way too low. So every nation's education system can be messed up.

Re: How Can We Make American Students Smarter?
 

Demonstrably false, for better or worse.

The opportunities available to a person with a degree from a prestigious university, but not to someone with a "lesser" (or no) degree are substantial. Degrees are correlated with useful skills—while it's often possible to have those skills and no degree, the degree is a shorthand way of indicating to the world that, according to a particular institution, you have mastered those skills. Without the benefit of a degree system (or some other system performing an equivalent function), the process of finding talented people would be rather less efficient.

The consequence of this is of course that some skilled people, by virtue of not having a degree, are overlooked—and conversely, that some unskilled people who have degrees are promoted beyond their ability. This appears to be inequitable on an individual level, but it is pervasive. Interestingly, it might be closer to optimal on a societal level, because by simplifying the hiring (or similar) process, you can devote more resources to other productive things (even though some individuals suffer). It might even be said—though I'm definitely not willing to go that far myself—that it's roughly optimal on the individual level, because people more quickly find their station in life, without wasting time aspiring to overly lofty things.

In any event, don't dismiss the credential so easily.