9th garde in the FRC?
 

Hi CD,
Personally I want the 9th graders to be in the FRC because the team will be stronger but our principal don't want it, she thinks they should be in the FLL.
I would like to get some claims why they should be in the FRC in order to convince the principal.
I have already told the principal that:
They are too old to the FLL
Our school can only have two FLL teams because of place and money problems so the FLL should be 7&8 grades and the FRC to the other grades...

I can't make see the whole picture, please help

Yarden

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

The FIRST brochure might help. It says:

• FLL grades 4-8
• FRC Grades 9-12

How are your grades organized within your school?
Do all grades share a building? Do the 9th grade students normally mix with the 10-12 grade students?

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

How old are your 9th graders? As long as they are 14 or under, they should be perfectly fine in FLL.

Now, if you have 9th graders turning 15, then you have a problem--they can't stay in FLL (I don't remember when the cutoff date typically is).


What I would propose to the principal is this:
1) Currently, only 2 FLL teams can be fielded (20 slots). Reserve some of the slots for 9th graders.
2) Allow a limited number of 9th graders on the FRC team for one year as a trial basis.
3) Concurrently with 2, allow 9th graders in FLL. They get to choose which level they're at--barring age issues, of course. (Some of them should be in both, ideally.)

After the one year, re-evaluate. Get input from the 9th graders at both levels on what they liked and disliked. At that point, you can:
-increase FLL support to add a third team
-allow 9th graders in FRC on a more permanent basis
-assign 9th graders to mentor FLL teams

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

Be very careful how you say this to the principal, you don't want to sound disrespectful or antagonistic:

The ENTIRE PLANET (more or less)
does FLL for 9 - 14 year olds
and FRC for 9-12th grade students.

If you set an expectation for a student, they will rise to the challenge. (with all due respect to FLL) Your principal is setting too low a standard for the 9th grade students. They are better than that !!

After you get through the stuff above you can then offer a compromise position. The 9th graders can do FTC as a JV type program. It is intermediate from FLL to FRC.

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

Perhaps you can talk the principal into some kind of basic training plan for grade 9s. I.E. FTC / Vex for them in the fall?

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

I can see the principals problem if your middle school is grades 7-9 and your high school is grades 10-12.

Keeping the student bodies segregated for underlying parental, administrative, educational, and social reasons may be important.
If that's the case then the suggestion of using FTC as a transition step in the middle school may be more practical.
However, if meeting spaces and funding are limiting you to two FLL teams, then that may not work as an argument either unless one FLL team becomes an FTC team.

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

The current age limit for FLL is as follows:
Just wanted to clear something up:

The OP is from Israel. Therefore, even 16 year-olds from their school can compete in FLL.

Also, the age limit is as of January 1 of the competition year (the year before the World Festival) - for this season, 2011. So, if an American/Canadian/Mexican turns 15 in August 2011, they can compete in Food Factor because they were 14 on January 1, 2011. Similarly, if someone from the rest of the world turns 17 in August 2011, they can compete in food factor because they were 16 on January 1, 2011.

I have never done FRC (only FLL), so I cannot think of any reasons right now for 9th grade students to do FRC. Sorry...

//Andrew

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

Sounds like a good time for students/alumni/mentors that have done FRC in 9th grade to give their opinions.

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

I speak from an unusual standpoint.
I started FRC (yes, FRC) when I was in 7th grade. During the same year, I was in the school's Lego robotics class. As such, I had a chance to work with both FRC and "FLL" in the same year. This being said, I think that there is *nothing* wrong with younger students on an FRC team. Lego is beneficial, but there comes a point at which a student grows out of it.

I was actually at the Israel Regional in 2010, as a freshman, and (while Yarden can attest it was a huge fiasco that most FRCers don't know about) I noticed that about 10% or so of the students there were also in 9th grade, though I am probably off by 2 or 3 percent, either way.

I suggest that you organize a way to bring your principle to the Nokia Center for the 2012 regional. It is amazing how much going to an FRC event can change an administrator's standpoint on robotics.

Apart from that, I think Eric H's suggestion is the best yet. It will sound like an attractive idea to your principle because it is not definitive. It allows for one year of trial before deciding either way.

With that being said,
בהצלחה!!

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

The international upper age of 16 for FLL was established because there is so little availability of FRC outside North America. As Israel is an exception and does have FRC, you might be able to convince your school that FLL is more appropriate for the younger ages.

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

many good suggestion that I will try to claim,
our principal was at every regional comppetition since 2005/2006 (she had another team in her last school), she is very supportive but very conservative(FRC should be to high school and FLL should be to middle school....)

thanks!!!

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

So by this comment, are you saying that 9th grade is a part of middle school? Clarifying that would be helpful.

Jane

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

Quoted from Wikipedia:
It seems that yes, 9th grade in Israel is middle school. I'm actually a little surprised I didn't know that.

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

Then, a different approach as far as offering suggestions and advice might be needed. For example - one might state that in countries like the U.S., many of the FRC teams are formed in the high schools, grades 9th - 12th. There are teams that form with members that come from home schools, 4-H clubs, Scouts, and private schools. On some of those teams, middle school students can be found.
--
Are the middle schools and high schools in separate locations and are they in the same districts? By that I mean, here in the U.S., the public schools are in the same school district and the middle schools typically feed into their area high school. So, would a 9th grade student from a middle school automatically join their area high school?

Jane

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

I noticed on another team's website that they had "apprentice" members.

Maybe an option could be that 'regular' members are grades 10-12 and then 9th grade students can be apprentices.

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

//snipped//

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

If FTC or VRC competition was available, and if I was in 7th-9th grade, and if I was told that my school would only let me compete on an FLL team; I would simply form an FTC or VRC team on my own (separate from the school), and enjoy the result.

I have never met a 7th, 8th or 9th grade student in my travels (I have never visited Israel) who would prefer FLL over FTC or VRC.

I am constantly surprised by the upper age limit on FLL. I know that cost plays a part in that situation; but even so, I remain surprised by how old some FLL students are.

I urge you to consider joining one of the intermediate programs (VRC or FTC). Instead of arguing with the school, help grow STEM robotics in your community by offering a 3rd (and 4th?) choice.

Blake

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

That's my que. :p. I've been involved with GUS since I was about 3, my father help start the team back in the day, and I use to go to every meeting I could with him. Everyone use to consider my to be a regular student on the team, even so much so that I found my way up on stage one year at nationals for a match back when it was down in Disney. ;]. So I really never understood when adults/mentors mentioned something about kids not being able to be on the team, everyone should be able to be on a FRC team! I can say it significantly impacted my life more than FLL. But I was on the FLL team at my middle school for 6th, 7th, and 8th grade, and I'm now in 11th grade and go back to mentor them every year. So I guess what i'm getting at is I don't there should be a set age limit for FRC and FLL, I mean, it should have SOME it's limits, like during the competition, to keep it fair. But I don't believe your principal should set a grade level, where they have to do one or the other! Some kids are really ready for FRC at grade 7, and some still like FLL better at age 18, is all depends on the student. Honestly, I think you'll get kids more hooked on FIRST if you bring them to a FRC event. It just has a bigger impact in my mind than a little FLL competition did. Even just a FRC regional can change a students life forever, I know it changed my life the first time I saw everyone cheering for our team, and it changed my life again the first time I drove a match in a regional, and it change my life again when we won our first Chairman's award, and it changed my life again walking out in front of 1000's of people down in ATL the first year I went, all for the better. Your principal should give the students the choice, it may be a little more difficult this way, but in my mind, it will benefit the kids more, and give them more experiences they will hold onto their entire lives, which is what FIRST is, at least in my mind, founded for.


-Dave

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

I'm in a very similar situation to davepowers, my dad became a mentor when our team was founded (I was in 2nd grade) and I went to almost every meeting. I became known as 'Junior', a name that lasted through 9th grade. I became a lot more involved in 7th grade when I wired most of the robot and I became Head Electrician in 8th grade. I was also on an FLL team (that my parents founded) from 3rd through 8th grade.
There is no reason that the 9th graders shouldn't able to be a part of the FRC team. I can understand where difficulties might arise if the 9th graders are in middle school and the middle school is not close to the high school. I don't believe anything should be done to keep 9th graders (or younger) off the team if they want to be a part of it.

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

Funny you should mention those grades as I participated in FLL those years. It was a great experience for me and I am unsure that I would have like FTC or VRC better since those programs do not include a research project. (As far as I am aware.)
FLL in 9th grade was a fit for me.

However, I think giving students a choice is ideal since more mechanically-minded students might want a bigger challenge.

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

No argument here - I didn't say an older student that prefers the FLL program is wrong - I just don't recall having met any (except possibly through this exchange).

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

From a judging perspective at various FLL events, I've noticed that the older students consistently act as quiet leaders in various ways - often serving as quiet role models and stabilizers for the team as it moves through the presentations. FLL teams are made up of all sorts of age variations - sometimes with the majority being on the young side, sometimes with the majority being on the older side, sometimes with a mix. The mix usually showcases the team well with the older team members (and their experience) helping the team play to its strengths while presenting.

Just an .02
Jane

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

our middle school and high school are in the same place behind the same fence but from some reasons the schools are "acting" as seprated schools.
Elementary school - grades 1-6
Middle school - grades 7-9
High school - grades 10-12

There are many students from 9 grade that want to be in the FRC, when I was at 9 grade I was in the FLL but it was a bit easy and not challanging, that's why I want to change it...

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

What you might ask is why your principle is concerned with 9th graders being in FRC instead of FLL. Our team is similar to yarden.saa, with a middle school and elementary school as well as a high school.

We have had 8th graders(the final year of our middle school) on the team when ever they have an interest ever since we began, because our schools sports teams allow 8th graders on their teams in a Jr. Varsity role. The biggest concern was safety.

We solved the issue by requiring middle school students to make sure their parents knew and were okay with them going to robotics after school, and requiring a parent to come along for the trip to a regional(or championship). The parents as a result became more involved in the program(a good thing), and felt safer knowing what their son or daughter was up to. On the team they are then treated as much members as any high school student. In 2010, our 8th grader students designed, tested and refined our award winning kicker completely on their own.

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

Grade 9 is a great year to introduce students to FRC, in this year we usually train them all in the section they have applied for( ex. mechanical, electrical). If i wasnt in FRC during grade 9 then i would not have been able to do the amount of work i did this year. (most of the robot was made by me)

Re: 9th garde in the FRC?
 

Our team has actually had 2 8th graders. One of which is a freshman now and the other will be 9th next year. I don't see any reason for someone at any age to join as long as they are ready for FRC.