Historic FIRST data wanted
 

Hey everyone,

I'm compiling (or attempting to compile) all the information on FRC teams and seasons from 1992 to 2002 (up until the current TIMS system took over in 2003). So far I have collected quite a bit of data, but could use more. Currently I'm in need of:

• Awards and their recipients from 1992 and 1993
• Match data from 1992 - 2000

Keep in mind that I'm trying to keep this as accurate as possible. Anything you can do to confirm your claim is greatly appreciated; be it a picture of the trophy itself proving its existence, a news clipping, or an official press release to document the outcome of the event.

Thanks,
Q. Sheets

The compilation thus far - (Excel, iWork, PDF)

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

http://www.team358.org/files/frc_records/AllAwards.xls There are the awards 1992-Present. Thank You Mark!

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

we have ours on our website, core2062.com.

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

I'll add my own desired historical data if anyone has access to these:

• Temporary team numbers list for 1996

• I have most game rules, but need the Complete Game Manuals for: 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 2000
  Lacking full manuals then:
  • The basic game rules for 1994, 1995
  • Kit checklists for 1994, 1995, 1996

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

While this list is great (and it is), there's no documentation to go along with it that confirms its findings.

I think I can help you with that list. I just uploaded the 2000 Game Manual (note - any link not crossed out works).

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

Thanks for the 2000 manual. I keep records on the Kit of Parts changes over the years, so the Kit stuff is really helpful.

The data sources for that list are documented at the bottom of the webpage that the list comes from. The same original sources you're using are there plus some others. Not all details are there, for instance, individual corrections we've received over the years aren't all listed.

Be aware that FIRST does have errors in some of those published lists, so try to get multiple confirming sources when you get to your validation phase. We began with an older FIRST database that we archived before FIRST discarded it, but it too had data entry errors that had to be reconciled against other documentation. The current FIRST database also has data entry errors and omissions that have to be backfilled.

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

The problem I find with your sources is that though the sources say 1992-1999 and 1992-2000, the only data from the 1992-1994 seasons ever put on the FIRST website were the lists of teams and sponsors.

The discrepancy listed in the AllAwards spreadsheet, actually looks like an error of miscommunication. It read, "2005 Indiana Boilermaker: Entrepreneurship claimed by both 868 & 234 (234 has the trophy though)." When looking at the official results, 868 won it at Boilermaker and 234 won it at the Florida Regional (which the award at that event isn't even listed on their website).

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

Yea, we both have run into that roadblock since those are the same sources you're referencing. That's why the original sources are linked, so people can see what data was contributed by those sources if they are interested in doing the same digging.
Hopefully you'll turn up some new sources. Teams/mentors from that era have given me a few of the awards, but no one ever seems to remember what anyone else got.


234 told me they have the trophy from winning it at Boilermaker.
I only listed that discrepancy because I haven't heard from 868.

Other discrepancies that have been reconciled are not noted in that spreadsheet. Obvious ones such as when teams are listed as winning awards at Regionals the team didn't attend (2003 animation was a notable exception since teams didn't have to attend to submit).
When you start reconciling and cross checking you'll start seeing those.

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

Team 45, Technokats, had a press release from just after the 1994 competition that lists all the award winners.

Note: I did email FIRST to see if they happened to have an archive with press releases from 1992 and 1993. Michelle Normand (the most helpful lady ever) emailed me back saying they were unable to find any going back that far.

If any teams have paper archives they can scan and post, it will be appreciated. Maybe we can help FIRST build an archive.

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

All,

The TechnoKats have just updated their website and there are a bunch of documents in their History Project page. This may help.

Sincerely,
Andy Baker

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

Great!
Glad to have that back, and with more historical records than ever!
P.S. I like the picture of the Kit of Parts from 1992 and a partial list of awards (without winners) tells me I'm missing at least 4 more awards (I have 9 winners from various sources).

A lot of the team lists and awards info was extracted from some of your stuff that filled in missing holes and contributed as secondary sources to help in validating the FIRST data.

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108 *might* have something. I'm not sure though, since the system we had was from awhile ago. We had a pretty awesome system, SOAP (don't know if anyone remembers it, it's been a few years since it was done). I know you check out TBA (The Blue Alliance) and they have a lot, or FIRSTwiki might have some. But again, not sure.

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

I think I found the site from someone on Chief Delphi. This site has a copy of most old game manuals. Didn't see it posted yet so hope it helps.

http://www.first-a-holics.com/competitions/

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

The latest TechnoKats History Project had some of the game manuals I was missing.
Still missing Awards from:

• Non-Manchester regionals in 1996 & 1995 (Charlotte, NC & Dallas, TX). Missing those event team lists, too.
• 1992 partial awards (have 9, but at least 4 others are unknown)
• 1993 partial awards (have 4, missing at least 7 others)

Missing Game Manual from 1994

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

Are we sure these events happened? I found evidence that NC was planned in 1995, but no evidence of it occurring. For example, in the planned documentation, two P&G teams (Aiken HS & Walnut Hills HS) are set to attend NC and not NE; however in the official document, they attended NE.

This wouldn't have been the first time FIRST wanted to expand and wasn't able to do so. Though expansion would have been nice, maybe it wasn't completely feasible.

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I think it's pretty obvious based on the registered team list.
You're suggesting that a lot of the teams that went to Championship didn't play in a regional event beforehand, and some registered teams never played anywhere.
Two years in a row?
Doesn't seem like a terribly reasonable suggestion, but it was a small competition then.

This is what I meant about validating our data.
We have to find as many different sources as possible and reconcile them.
That will tell us what's missing and what's just wrong.
The registered team list tells us we're missing fully half of the awards given out in 1995 and 1996.
With the lists we have we know which teams might possibly still have the event results hidden away, so we can try contacting them directly to see if they have records stuffed in the bottom of a drawer someplace, or an original mentor/student who might remember some details.

Take 1995 for example:
Non-Manchester teams playing at Championship 1995:
6, MN
43, MI
45, IN
74, MI
81, IL
83, WA
98, TX
108, FL
120, OH
129, TX
141, MI
148, TX
161, MI
171, WI

(removed as irrelevant and way too bulky)

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

This was not uncommon in 1995/1996. I don't think the concept of a "regional" or "championship" really existed as far as many of us were concerned.

I was the driver for 74 in 1995, and 141 was our "cross town rival". I can confirm that both of these teams played only at the Championship at Epcot in 1995. 74 also only attended the Championship in 1996 (I'm nearly certain this is true for 141 as well). It wasn't until the Midwest Regional was formed in 1997 that it became feasible for us to attend a regional event.

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I definitely confirm this. Back in the late 90's, a few teams would show up to to the Championships without playing in a previous event. In order to make the Championships a more quality event, FIRST began to require that teams attend some Regional event. I am not sure, but I think this requirement started happening in 2000 or 2001.

Andy B.

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

It sounds like Nationals was just another event back then.
Maybe we're not missing awards from '95 and '96 after all.

So do you guys think that some teams dropped out rather than travel and play anywhere?
I would have expected the enrollment to fall rather than rise the following year if teams found it so hard to reach an opportunity to play, but we do have teams in the UK, Turkey, etc. facing the same issues today I suppose.

Was it more of a science fair atmosphere in the beginning where teams might just work at home and not compete at all?
Maybe registration was only a matter of paying for the Kit rather than competing?

P.S. I love historical perspective :)

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From my perspective as a student, it was the only event. At the time I don't know if I was even aware that there was an event in New Hampshire. The whole premise of our school's involvement was "hey, we're going to go compete at this robotics event at Disney World, want to join?" It's also important to remember that in 1995, there was only something like 38 teams at Epcot, so even the "Championship Event" was small compared to many regionals today.
I can definitely say it was not a science fair atmosphere. Really, the whole thing felt the same back then as it does today. The main difference was that there was no Chief Delphi, and most people were not "online", so the build season (at least for our team) was done in almost complete isolation (but we definitely were aware that we were working towards the goal of competing in Florida). In 1995 the very first time we saw another robot was after the build season was over and we had a demo with the other team in our city at the mall (FIRST let us keep our robot past the ship date for that event as I recall - we had to do something similar to the "bag & tag" that they have now with someone else locking our crate).

The event at Epcot even back in those years was basically the same as they are today. If anything, the atmosphere was even more fun than it is now, as everything was outside, bright & sunny. Teams had brightly-colored t-shirts, there was loud music being played, and people did the Macarena (some things never change, I guess).

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That was true for our school all the way thru 2002. Disney was a big student draw.

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I'm pretty sure I recall that in my (and SPAM's) rookie year in 1998, if we had gone to a regional we had to ship the robot on a certain day, but since we were just going to the championship we didn't have to ship it until 2 days later. And 2 extra days was a really big deal. Does anyone else remember this?

OK I found it in the game rules on 358's website - it was actually 3 days!!! Going to a regional you had to ship on Tuesday, going to the championship only you got until Friday.

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

Sorry if I ever come off as rude (preemptive, if not), but I do love this perspective as well. Looking back always provides a clear thought process on what was done and how it can be done differently. Though, I may become over analytical at times and focus solely on what information is available, and act like it's a logic puzzle. That's just me.

I will definitely say one thing, though... We need loads more DATA!! Just like in Numb3rs, the more data we have, the more accurate our results/findings will become. So, looking back on what has been said, I am drawing these conclusions (Mark, correct me and add more where you see fit). We need:

• more official FIRST documentation (though we can't rely on it entirely because it is incomplete)
• more data from teams on their historic performances (preferably with written or photographic evidence)
• as many accounts of what happened as possible (I know it's been a long time) -- there's gotta be rock solid facts in there somewhere.

Would anyone like to offer up a way to collect data and sort through it all, as a group?

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

Slightly off topic. Be careful with this line of thinking. Too much information can be just as bad as too little information as it can obscure trends.

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Don't forget that permanent teams numbers were not used in the early years. I think they were assigned in the order that a team registered. In 1996 we attended the New Hampshire regional winning Rookie All Star and then went to Disney. In 1997 we attended the new Motorola Midwest Regional and I think our team number was 89 that year. (That robot is in the FIRST museum) We also attended Nationals. We continue to attend the Midwest Regional and Champs and generally one other regional.

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

Al, you make a great point. To alleviate this problem for any season prior to 1998, I've been tracking the official (long) team names instead of team numbers. I've stuck mainly with tracking the schools involved on each team, as sponsors can change radically between years. And I've even found schools that were spelt differently between years (probably correcting spelling mistakes). I've got that covered :)

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

Statistical analysis, anyone? Just kidding. Thanks for bringing that up, Andrew. I'd actually rather we have too much information. I would hopefully like us to cross-examine documents to find all the similarities and differences between them. Then, if the percentages/stats are significant enough to prove the claim, take each into consideration.

Still, if you feel you have any better ideas, present them. I'm sure all of us would be more than willing to find the best approach possible.

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

As I understand it, the teams were numbered alphabetically by official team name. That name started with the team's primary sponsor. The year numbers became permanent, The Juggernauts were team 1 based on their sponsorship by a company starting with a numeral rather than a letter. Delphi-sponsored teams ended up in the 40s. The X-Cats, sponsored by Xerox, got 191.

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

Alan,
I do know that Motorola teams were all in the 100 range when numbers became permanent. At that time, there were three local teams numbered 111, 112, 113. 108 is another Mot team from Plantation, FL, which implies there were 109 and 110 Mot teams as well. I know there were Mot teams in Ohio and Texas at one time.
Quentin,
For the record, our team name is spelled WildStang to ID the original two schools from which the team drew students from. We use the same grammar as 'deer' so there is never WildStangs even if there are more than one.

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

1998 was the year the numbers became permanent. You can see the original 1998 team list here:

http://web.archive.org/web/199805290.../teamlist.html

Clearly, numbers were assigned in alphabetical order according to sponsor at some point during the registration, but also there are a number at the bottom after X-Cats who don't fit the pattern, presumably because they registered after the initial list was sorted and numbers were assigned.

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Team 82 on that list got a different number the next year for some reason--I think that was the year that their primary sponsor changed names. They're now known as 330.

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

Permanently assigned numbers were used in 1998 forward from the info I have gathered as well.

Buzz was formed in 1995 but didn't compete until 1996 (the declared rookie year) and started for two years as team 51 (good number, for us and the current team using it!). There are several teams with lower numbers that were started later than some higher-numbered more senior teams, but we know 51 given up as the result of re-numbering by request.

In 1998 our sponsor wanted sequential numbers for their first 3 sponsored teams in existance at that time: 175 Buzz in Enfield, CT, 176 Aces High across the river from Enfield in Suffield CT, and a neighboring town just south of us is 177 Bobcats in South Windsor.

We too have a ton of stuff - I will look and see what I can find in a week or so when we next have our Buzz meeting.

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

In 1998, team numbers were made semi-permanent. If a team's official team name (sponsors and/or schools) changed for 1999, there is a high probability they were assigned a new number. Also, some teams that took the 1999 season off and came back in 2000 could have been assigned a new number. (See last sheet of spreadsheet linked in the first post of the topic)

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Not applicable to 330; they were at SVR and Nationals in 1999 (and 2000).

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Al might have been speaking of numbers being assigned sequentially in earlier years. That still happens to FLL teams. Rookie FRC teams are assigned sequentially too.

As Alan notes, when permanent numbers were assigned, the existing teams were assigned in alphabetic (alphanumeric) order. Another series of teams were the GM teams, in the 60's.

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

This is correct. In 1998 I was on team 162 (TRW Automotive and Farmington Hills Harrison High School). For 1999 FH Harrison dropped out and we (TRW) partnered with Walled Lake Schools and the number changed to 308, which is still in existence.

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Those numbers would also support the theory that Walled Lake was considered a rookie team in 1999, and thus got a new number.

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Yeah, I probably should have noted by "changing schools in the official team name" I meant, adding or dropping schools; not a sponsor dropping a school and picking up another.

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The Sponsor block was all the UTC Teams in existance back in 1998, 173-181.
This includes the Carrier sponsored 174 from Syracuse and The Pratt and Whitney Florida teams 179 and 180.


FYI
You can see an elim bracket from the NE regional in 98 here to verify some of this
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/22117

And from Nationals here:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/22268
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/22269
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/22270

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So, to double-check this... I have you guys in 1992 ("Motorola, Inc. & Wheeling High School ", Wheeling, IL), not competing from 1993 to 1995, and then back from 1996 ("Motorola, Inc. & Rolling Meadows High School/Wheeling High School", Schaumburg, IL) to the present. Is this correct?

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

So what is the term for a group of Wildstang? A herd? A pride? A flock? A team? Whatever it is, they are definitely awesome to see in their natural habitat. The alpha males are exceptionally impressive.

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Quentin,
That is correct. Motorola approached the high school in 1992. I wasn't part of the team at that time but as I understand, there was a positive response that took a while to coalesce into a viable team. By 1996 a teacher was splitting time between Wheeling and Rolling Meadows High Schools and convinced enough people to include both schools. I became involved late in the 1996 build to assist with video documentation of the robot at Wheeling. My wife and I provided adult support at Wheeling but never saw the robot compete. The same took place in 1997 with additional parent support for animation and much more video work. My first hands on came at the Midwest Regional when an electrical problem developed. I have been involved in the robot ever since.
WildStang comes from student choices of mascot names...Wheeling WILDcats and Rolling Meadows muSTANGs. The tie dye just came naturally. The Motorola mentor from 1992 came back to the team much later and is with us still.

Gary,
Whatever!!! No alpha males allowed, just Raul. We're flexible.

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[quote=Peter Matteson;1077961]The Sponsor block was all the UTC Teams in existance back in 1998, 173-181.
This includes the Carrier sponsored 174 from Syracuse and The Pratt and Whitney Florida teams 179 and 180.


Ah - thanks, Peter!
Coming later into CT and all of this I wondered why the numbers looked like they skip between UTC sponsored teams here in the CT region.

Haven't had too many history lessons yet regionally so I am still catching up.:rolleyes:

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

Okay. [so here's the earth… jk]

After a couple weeks of searching for a nice place to share our cumulative data that was free and had a high storage capacity, I realized I overlooked the best place to upload and share documents, Google Docs. It's free; everyone has their own 1GB limit; and of course, the interface is superb. Problem solved.

You should be able to share, any/all historic FIRST data you or your team(s) may have. I say should be because I'm not 100% sure I set the permissions correctly for you to put your stuff in the same shared collection.

Google Docs - Historic FIRST data

Please view the README before sharing.

Note: I've already posted all relevant documents from Team 45's History Project (1992-2000) and the images Peter Matteson linked to in a previous post.

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Mark, you may want to update your spreadsheets.

I love when revisiting overlooked news articles pays out with information of value.

Here are the 1992 Award Winners:

Champion - [126] NYPRO/Clinton High School
Chairman's - [191] Xerox/Joseph C. Wilson Magnet High School
Most Creative Design - [126] NYPRO/Clinton High School
Best Offensive Round - [190] WPI/Doherty High School
Best Defensive Maneuver - [146] Kiwanis/Manchester West High School
Most Photogenic - [??] Advanced Animation/Rochester High School (Vermont)
Best Sportsmanship - [111] Motorola/Wheeling High School
Best Team Spirit - [191] Xerox/Joseph C. Wilson High School
Play of the Day - [131] NH Technical College/Central High School
The Ultimate Keeper - [45] Delco/Kokomo High School (I'd call this one a Judge's Award)

Note: The article did not list the finalist.

Source: Google Doc / PDF (Orig)

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

Good find from the TechnoKats archives.
It confirms most of the awards I had, but there are a few conflicts that have to be reconciled-different teams have a claim on the Best Offensive and Best Defensive awards and I think Sportsmanship is contested too.

There seemed to be three finalists in 1992 and 1993.
4 teams played in the final match and we know who they were, one winner and three finalists.
45 has the Finalist trophy and it's mentioned in one of their other news articles that they came in third.

Re: Historic FIRST data wanted
 

I am giving this topic a bump because it's been a little while… and because more data would still be good to have.

I used all my spare time yesterday to prototype FIRST Chat's new design with 2 vs. 2 matches and decided to use the 2004 Great Lakes Regional. Little did I know I would end up spending the whole day looking for surrogate match trends for the seasons before it started being explicitly defined in the manual and looking for elimination match teams and results. Now that yesterday is done and past, I still haven't found what I was enmeshed looking for.

Please, find and post more historic data because a complete archive is a happy archive.