[DFTF] Drinking from the firehose...
 

Hi ChiefDelphi.com!!!

I'm back after a long time away.

And I'm a rookie again. No really, my son's high school is going to have a FIRST team this coming season. It is going to be a challenge because the school admin has agreed to front us the entry fee for our first regional. Beyond that, the team is going to have to fund raise for itself or find a sponsor to do the heavy lifting.

In the mentor dept. it is going to be me and a physics teacher plus anyone else we can suck into the FIRST Robotics Vortex.

So... ...pretty much I'm on a typical FIRST Team now. I am excited but I scared to death too.

So much has changed... ...and that is where ya'll come in.

I am going to need help, lots of help, filling the gaps in my FIRST IQ. I used to be pretty smart in this area but it has been years since I've been responsible for a team. I really need help getting back up to speed.

I plan on starting a series of threads over the next few weeks and months as I get my team stood up and we start competing.

Before i do that, I need help figuring out what I don't know.

As background, I was founding mentor for Chief Delphi (Team 47) in 1995 and remained a leader until 2004 when I started my own company and had to focus on that 24/7. Over the years, I've been a judge at the Championships and at Regionals as well as a judge advisor at a District competition in Michigan. I also helped out Ursa Major (Team 2849) in their 2nd year, but I was mostly just an engineering resource and left the team things to others.

Here are the threads I plan on starting:

• Robot Building
  • Chassis
    • Bumpers 101<<what is the DEAL?!
    • Tires Choices <<I love grippy tires. what are the best today
    • Shifting vs. more motors vs. some other magic
    • To Swerve and Protect: how important is going sideways? Omniwheels vs. Mechanum vs. Steerable Drive?
  • Electronics and Control
    • Wiring changes in the recent years
    • The New Controller (and by New I mean cRIO, not the NEW NEW controller)
    • Classmate and Operator Interface Best Practices
    • Jaguars Vs. Victors << is this still a thing?
    • If Jaguars, is CAN worth the bother?
    • Labview Vs. Java Vs. C++
  • Motors in the FIRST kit <<what's new
  • Pneumatics Keys to success in a less restrictive world
  • FTC minibots Really????
  • The Essential Material List
  • The Essential Toolbox List
  • The Essential Equipment List
  • Batteries Best Practices

• Team Stuff
  • Rookie Grants 101
  • Shipping in the Bag & Tag World
  • What to read to get up to speed and to stay in the loop
  • Picking a Team Name << current best thoughts on this subject
  • Team organization << anything new to say on this?
  • Budgets << more is better of course but let's get real.

I KNOW that most of these have been covered many many times on ChiefDelphi.com before. I need help finding the best of these threads AND I need pointers to the best resources that cover these topics.

So... ...look for these threads. I will try remember to put [DFTF] in the title to help folks find them in the future.

In the mean time, help me decide what other threads I need to start.

I've got a lot to learn. Help me know how much.

Cheers,
Joe J.

Re: [DFTF] Drinking from the firehose...
 

I haven't gotten all the way through my archives so don't have the threads you are looking for yet... but I just want to say welcome back.

Re: [DFTF] Drinking from the firehose...
 

Welcome back!

Are you still in Michigan? You mentioned the fee for the first regional, but if you're still in MI, "regional" isn't really the common term right now.

Re: [DFTF] Drinking from the firehose...
 

Mr. Johnson, it will be a pleasure to have you in the Forums. I remember back went I was in 9-10th grade at the state championship one of my mentors pointed you out to me. "Do you know who that is? That's one of the greatest minds in FIRST. That's the guy who use to run team 47 back when 47 was the Beatty of first. He's the person who started using drill transmissions in FRC."

Anyways, back to now, I can assist in some of these areas.

Bumpers:
-This is a pretty new way which works well http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...hlight=Bumpers
-Andymark sells bumper supplies http://www.andymark.com/category-s/253.htm
However, I do not suggest buying the bumper skirts as they are rather saggy and generally don't look very nice.
-Many teams make two seperate sets of interchangable bumpers (red and blue)

As to tires:
-No metal on floor contact because the floors were getting ripped up
-Now a days Andymark wheels are quite popular: http://www.andymark.com/category-s/229.htm
6" wheels using roughtop tread have a CoF of about 1.2 after wear. Many teams use these to great effect.
-Pneumatic tires: mcmaster 2717T51 are probably the best but do require pressure maintaince. :http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...neumatic+Tires

Shifting:
-Shifting tyranies are no longer popular because the amount of power teams have axcess to negligates their effectiveness.
-However, many teams use two speeds: the most popular is the Andymark Supershifter: http://www.andymark.com/product-p/am-0114.htm

Drivetrains:
-6wd with a dropped center wheel is extreamly popular.
-After 2010 many teams have begun using 8wds (inner wheels dropped)
-Many teams weld aluminum box tubing, or use custom sheet metal drivetrains. This is a decent thread about frames:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...hlight=Bumpers
-"west coast" drives are becoming popular: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...st+coast+drive
-Lots of people use mecanum wheels for sideways motion: However, http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ving+c ircles
-Swerves are still swervy.
-A new trend is having articulating wheels to change your wheel type/stance inspired by team 217/148 in 2010: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ight=nonadrive
You can also buy drivetrains now: http://team221.com/order.php
Finally, despite all this fancy-shmancy stuff the kitbot can still be used to great effect: http://www.simbotics.org/media/video...itbot-steroids

One more good thread-Things never to do: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...hlight=Bumpers

Welcome back and good luck with your new team!
,Bryan

Re: [DFTF] Drinking from the firehose...
 

Welcome back, Dr. Joe!

Here's another recent "catch up" thread: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=97033

Making things simpler, the current system uses a single centralized power distribution board/fuse panel. Making things more complex, the cRIO does not directly send signals to motors and relays, but instead uses a series of breakout boards and "digital sidecars." Additionally, some components that were once tailor-made for our control system (camera, radio,) are now off-the-shelf items, which require some funky wiring, like dedicated ports on the power distribution board, and voltage converters.


Yup. Jaguars still haven't quite achieved the reliability of victors, with or without CAN, and many teams stick with Victors for reliability and space reasons.


Generally, a matter of taste..great teams have used all three options. I'll let people who know more than me fill you in on this one.


4 CIMs have been the standard since 2005, and most teams put all 4 in the drivetrain. The FP motors are still around, and a bit less smoke-happy than they once were. Denso window motors provide a low/medium torque right angle output. Banebots motors of various sizes have been avaliable in recent years. Last year, four sizes were avaliable, with the RS-775 packing a real punch.

Not a whole lot has changed here. Some teams have found slightly better compressors, and many teams began using plastic accumulators last year. And of course you occasionally see a strange size of cylinder. But nothing truly ground breaking has come from the less restrictive rules.


Some other random things to be aware of:

-There's a new means of official communication from FIRST, "Bill's Blog," which keeps us up do date on a wide range of things. http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/
-FIRST now directly provides teams with a way to fund raise, by selling LED lightbulbs. http://usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/...n-e-watt-saver
-As mentioned, Michigan now uses the "district system," where teams play at multiple district events for the same cost as a regional, where they can qualify for the state championship.

Welcome back again, and good luck!
-Joe G.

Re: [DFTF] Drinking from the firehose...
 

Can we please start a Joe Johnson thread similar to the Andy Baker thread?

But really, really really awesome to see a legend return to FRC. I look forward to a lot of inspiration from you and your new team!

Good luck Dr. Joe!

Re: [DFTF] Drinking from the firehose...
 

Thanks all for the early comments.

To answer one question at least, I am in Boston area now.

However, the real reason I jumped in is to refocus this thread.

I did a data dump as to the kinds of thread topics FUTURE DFTF's would address.

I'm a bit of a noob, but I know enough about online forums to realize that this would be an essentially useless thread if I tried to have everyone jump in on the entire list of topics.

SO...

...let's try to keep the focus of THIS thread stuff that folks think I should have on my topic list that I didn't know to put on there (with a few, welcome back Dr Joe messages if you must ;-)

More DFTF individual threads coming soon to a forum near you...

Cheers,
Joe J.

Re: [DFTF] Drinking from the firehose...
 

Joe,

Come on up to the Mainely Spirit off-season on Saturday, the 24th! Love to have you back in the game!

Re: [DFTF] Drinking from the firehose...
 

Banebot's RS-775s are very powerful and very hard to smoke, unless of course you get a shorted one, or one with bearing damage, or a locked shaft... which for us, after buying approximately 15 of them last season, runs at a failure ratio of about 50%....

Re: [DFTF] Drinking from the firehose...
 

Joe,
I knew you couldn't stay away forever. You have my email so you can ask me anything you like. Some answers will come from Al the others may come from the Chief Robot Inspector for FRC.

Re: [DFTF] Drinking from the firehose...
 

It's still September. Keep the focus narrow at first.

Money, money, money where is the rest of the money going to come from. No money, no team.

Team and school administration. Right now get together with the principle and make sure you are on the same page. Find out now about the school policies and procedures. Questions like when and how do you gain access to the building. Can students use power tools with out a licensed shop teacher present. Who pays for the teachers substitute when at competitions. Will the school pay for busing to the events. What is the school policy for over night trips. Can you travel to a regional that would require an over night stay, or will it have to be day trips to a local event. Find out now so a regional selection can be made. You have a whole lot off administration to figure out. Do it now.

Students, It helps to have good involved students. How do you present robotics to suck them in.

After the administrative issues are addressed, You can then start to think about the robot . The school policies, money, additional mentors and sponsors will determine how complex the robot can be. Will it be a cheap KISS bot or can you go for some complexity. The c-rio and programming needs to be looked at in the fall.

First has allot of resources available. Develop a project management style with a time line like thing.

Go for it. Full speed ahead. The hell with the day job.

Re: [DFTF] Drinking from the firehose...
 

Joe-

First of all, welcome back. We've certainly missed you.

Next, whereabouts in the Boston area are you? My team (125) has spent a great deal of time over the past 7 seasons helping to foster growth in the greater Boston area. We've been heavily involved in helping teams get up and running (and sustaining) after an FRC explosion occurred here back in the 2005-2006 range.

We'd be happy to help in anyway at all. Feel free to PM me, or send me a message on LinkedIn!

-Brando

Re: [DFTF] Drinking from the firehose...
 

Effective Automode Practices: As you may have noticed casually, the autonomous period has had a lot of value in many recent games (2006, 2008 & 2011 were huge, and 2010 & 2009 were also very important). You may want a thread on designing for auton, effective testing and tuning strategies for controls development.
With some planning and strategic thinking and a few tricks, you can triple the tuning iterations in a given timeframe. I am sure you have background in these practices, but I am assuming you plan on assisting others to quench their thirst via the Fire Hose as well.

Stategic improvements to the "kitbot" chassis would also be a good thread. The "kitbot" didn't exist back in your day like it does today. Many years have only required small modifications in order to have a very potent solution. Teams striving to be top 5% will likely still use a custom solution, but for teams wanting to become top 10%... lightly modified kit-chassis frees up a ton of resources for manipulators and controls development.

Scouting 101, 201, and 501 Effective scouting for qualifying, pick-list, and advanced predictive capabilities.

Re: [DFTF] Drinking from the firehose...
 

I second this, The main issue is the electrical parts of the motor are often shorted to the case of the motor. Often, this is a manufacturing defect that can be checked for with a multimeter before the motor is put on the robot, although there have been cases of such shorts developing after use. My recommendation is to isolate the motor from any metal on the robot other than the two wires that connect it to the victor or jaguar. Last year we did this by using fisher price plastic transmissions. Watch out for unexpected electrical pathways such as gears and screws. They are a pain, but still awesome.

Re: [DFTF] Drinking from the firehose...
 

This was true of motors shipped after kickoff last year. Apparently, a new vendor had failed to use a manufacturing technique that would prevent armature shorts. Banebots may have fixed this issue. As the rules have not been released, we are not confidant that this motor will be part of the KOP or allowed motor list yet.

Re: [DFTF] Drinking from the firehose...
 

Labview vs. C++, vs. Java.

This is again very much a matter of preference.
Personnally, if I were working alone by myself, I would use C++. I know C way better than any other language.
But since the whole goal of FIRST is to teach people things, we use Labview.
The Java users are the smallest group, and we have never really considered this, mostly because we know C and LV so well.

I find that, when properly constructed, a well made Labview VI is much easier to explain to students than a chunk of C code.

One thing I will say....Labview makes hard things easy, but sometimes makes easy things harder.

Example: if you want to compare two items and act if they are equal or not, you can do this with just a few keystrokes in C:
(x == y) ? a : b;
While in Labview you need to wire up a equal block to a select block, and a simple operation looks a bit like speghetti.
However, in Labview you can often bring in a single VI block which encapsulates enormous amounts of complexity. Example, I have a single VI function we made once called "Crab", which included all steering and wheel speed code for a four wheel independent steer crab drive system in a single block. The key to sanity in labview is proper style, annotation, and encapsualtion to prevent too much spaghetti. There are tons of great opensource labview VIs out there for almost anything you can think of.

Some other benefits: the Labview support is better, I think because there is a larger community using it. Labview is more or less designed for rapid code construction, so it is good for iterative developement.

To me the biggest benefit of Labview is the fact that it is an instrumentation language. It is not really a true programming langauge and some do not like it for this reason, but in realilty, we are really not trying to do software engineering in FIRST anyway. In FIRST, we are not trying to develop a highly optimized, compact piece of code; we are trying to get a robust solution as fast as humanly possible. The ability to instrument your code while it is actually running is extremely powerful once you learn how. We never need any external instumentation at all anymore....if we need an oscilloscope, just add one to the front panel, if we want to record data to a file for later, then just add a file block to your VI. These things are super easy in LV.

That said, a good coder can make a great robot in any of the 3 language options.

My $0.02

Re: [DFTF] Drinking from the firehose...
 

I like spaghetti better than oatmeal. You can straighten spaghetti so it looks nice, but oatmeal tends to remain mush no matter how much whitespace you sprinkle through it. ;)

Seriously, if you think a single wire between two blocks (along with the four inputs and one output) looks like spaghetti, you're doing something wrong. This is not an example of LabVIEW making it harder to do something easy. Using the keyboard to type C/C++ is faster than using the mouse to draw using LabVIEW, and compiling a C/C++ program is faster than building a program in LabVIEW. But for someone who isn't already highly skilled in a text-based procedural language, my experience is that having a working program using LabVIEW comes sooner.

This opinion comes from someone who is highly skilled in text-based procedural languages, and who is a relative newcomer to graphical dataflow languages. I just find LabVIEW to be a lot easier to use for the kind of things necessary for FRC robots.