Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Our team has been placed in an extremely awkward position by our school district. Over the last few years, we have grown exponentially--from ~20 members, to 35 in 2010, to 60 perspective members this year. Unfortunately, our school district has a policy that requires the student to teacher ratio to be 35:1 at all times, so if the team goes over that number, we require another teacher. Our team has some money, but not a huge amount, and the money for a teacher on duty must come directly from the district; through the normal payroll scheme.

It is clear that getting this funding for the extra teacher would be made easier if our team incorporated more of the diversity found at our school (right now, it's ~65% white and ~30% asian, and 70/30 male to female). Our school is obviously, 50/50 male female, and has a sizable latino/African American population (~15%)

Even with an increase in teachers, the space (physically) we have is limited, so about 10 people would have to be removed from the team. If we end up capped at 35, it would require the removal of, conservatively, 25 people.

In either of these eventualities, some people would have to be removed from the team. The question is, can gender, race, and sex be taken into the calculation. In other words, can the team take affirmative action to increase the diversity possibly at the expense of those who are deserving


I want to hear the opinions of some others before I give mine.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Define student to teacher ratio in the FIRST context... does it have to be teachers filling the role, or do volunteer mentors fit the bill as well? Is there some way to leverage that unique feature of FIRST to help your team fulfill the district's rules, while allowing everyone who wants to participate do so?

Is it possible to structure your team and your meeting times to allow everyone to be a part? Obviously, if you have 60 people on the team, I don't care how big your build space is, you're going to have trouble getting everyone time on the robot. If you organize the team schedule, you could have different subgroups meet at different time (One example would be everyone working on the robot, versus those that aren't, like PR, or animation, or website, etc. Another would be two different groups who need dedicated time working on the robot, when you know you can't physically fit more than a few bodies around the robot, regardless of how big your space is), thus limiting the total number of students present for most meetings, while giving everyone a chance to participate. Alternatively, could you "borrow" a classroom for use as pure meeting space (a normal classroom for the PR team, or a computer lab for the programming team, for example) to get around the size limitations of your room?

Asking specifically here about affirmative action is really opening a can of worms... It's a rather political subject, and a lot of people can be touchy about political subjects. I would highly encourage you and your team to look for creative ways and to engage your district leaders to allow everyone to participate, rather than look for the best way to tell a subset of people that they can't be on the team.

That said, I know that some teams have tryouts, others have an interview process... I'm guessing you'll find just about any way imaginable in FIRST to pick out a team amongst large schools with an absurd amount of students wanting to participate.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

I'll postpone discussing FIRST's values and/or the values of FIRST participants, and instead draw your attention to a few more general concepts.

First, look to Grutter v. Bollinger and Gratz v. Bollinger, which were 2003 United States Supreme Court cases that clarified limits on the ability of a school (in that case the University of Michigan) to apply affirmative action policies. If your team belongs to a public school, or is incorporated through a governmental agency, you're probably affected. (NPR has provided a summary.)

For details upon which you can rely, you'll probably need to speak to a lawyer or a school administrator. My inexpert appraisal of those rulings would be that it is constitutional for you to weigh factors like race and ethnicity "to further a compelling interest in obtaining the educational benefits that flow from a diverse student body", but that you shouldn't have a quota or automatically give certain minorities a numerical advantage in scoring their applications. If you (or rather, the people acting on behalf of the school) frame the desire for diversity in terms of attracting funding for an additional supervising teacher, I have no idea how it will turn out.

The other issue is related to the theory of apportioning scarce resources. If you follow utilitarian reasoning (i.e. Jeremy Bentham's philosophy), you should seek to maximize the utility of the society (not just the team; maybe instead the entire school community), even if that means dropping team members who are deserving. But John Rawls might argue that you should not put any person in a position where they are excessively disadvantaged, even if that means a lower aggregate utility level for the society—in that case, perhaps you might be justified in taking into account the possibility that certain minorities tend to be exposed to fewer opportunities, and that by dropping members of that group, you might harm them to an unacceptable degree.

I think that first and foremost, this is an ethical issue, then a legal one, then a political one, and only lastly a question of how the FIRST community would view it.

Aside: You'd be surprised how a school might end up with an uneven male-female split. For example, I believe Woburn C.I. had rather more males at one point, because it was composed in large part of a special education program in which males were disproportionately represented.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

The teachers must be district employees, with technology specifications, so, unfortunately, mentors can't fit the role.

On the subject of opening a can of worms, I want to look at Affirmative action through the lens of a FIRST team, and since CD is one of the most mature forums on the internet, I think we can handle a civil discussion here.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Does everyone on your team have a meaningful job? Will they still at a large number of team members? If not, I'd say cap enrollment.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

I have never been in favor of Affirmative Action. I strongly believe that discriminating based on skin color or body shape or genetic makeup, where those factors are not relevant to the position being considered, is simply wrong.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

While normally I fall under a mix for affirmative action eg:

Jobs/College admissions - pick the best candidate.

Scholarships - having extra scholarships for characteristically lower income groups is fine by me.

I am puzzled by this, because while I would normally say pick the best candidate the purpose of FIRST gives me mixed feelings. If you pick the best candidates, those who aren't the best may never get a chance to learn and get into the engineering world and struggle more in the future. Whereas if you don't pick just the best, you may be hindering the growth of some of the best.

I would be inclined to say a mix of Skill & Enthusiasm, perhaps conduct an interview with them. Regardless make sure you give legal issues a very wide berth.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

To me, FTC (and Vex, and other programs) seems like the best thing for teams in this situation. It's a way for the masses of students to get involved in something more hands-on, in a smaller group, particularly when they're just starting out. They can absolutely still show up to whatever FRC meetings they want, but the other, smaller program will make sure they have have something to do and are still learning.

With increasing student interest the thing to do seems to be creating more opportunities. However, it sounds like this would also require more faculty, but you might be able to make the case to the district to help you expand the program (in a very affordable way such as FTC/Vex) instead of excluding the majority of people who are now interested. Having to exclude anyone in any way is just no fun, so I would try to avoid it.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

The definition of "best" is at the heart of the issue. I think you're using it in terms of "most skilled"; others might interpret it as "most valuable". In terms of affirmative action, part of a selected person's value is said to come from the likelihood that they have experiences and perspectives that are distinct from the majority, and the presumption that they can usefully contribute those things to the endeavour.

Another facet of affirmative action is to compensate for a history of discrimination or marginalization (such as with lower-income populations receiving scholarships). This is perhaps less compelling, because many past wrongs were committed against other people from the same group, rather than personally against the person being selected. Nevertheless, by choosing to improve the condition of one member of that group, it can be argued that affirmative action ought to (even in some small way) improves the condition of the whole group.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

For 696, we'd of course like to have more girls on the team, but we're not favoring anyone or setting any hard numbers we try to meet. One thing I am doing however is to poll the physics teachers to see who their best students were. I will then reach out to these students individually to invite them to apply to the team in case they were otherwise unaware. However, they will not be given any direct priority or preference over others.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Is there any way you can leverage having technical/build and non-technical/marketing/awards/animation meetings seperately so that you can keep more students but have a non-build group meet at a diffferent time and still maintain the ratio?

Then you would just need an extra teacher when you travel to regionals which would drastically decrease the cost.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Grim,
With sixteen seasons behind us, I can tell you that the makeup of students varies widely from year to year. To attempt a strategy based on team makeup is a short term goal and may go awry in just one season as students leave for reasons unrelated to the competition. While I cannot know your school district policies, often a compromise involving a part time assignment can cover the needs without incurring significant expense. We are very lucky to have a school board that recognizes the significant contribution First has on their students and supports us for those efforts. More team graduates will advance to college or university from robotics than any other program in our schools. That is a significant statistic to encourage support from parent groups, school board and school admin. While I am not an advocate for affirmative action, students that fall into that category need encouragement to join robotics teams. You may need to pare down the team in the short term to give some students a quality experience while you prepare and plan for a future where more students can be involved. I know that this is tough decision. Good luck.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Is the goal of your team to be as competitive as possible or to influence the most students? What is the age breakdown of the 60 prospective members? Instead of trying to pick members by "value" to the team, which can be defined many ways and is hard to judge, why don't you just eliminate all freshman? Or limit it to juniors and seniors? I would like to see a senior get preference over a freshman, knowing that is the senior's last chance to be on the team, whereas the freshman has 3 more years.

And playing devil's advocate, I can certainly understand the school's policy of mandating a teacher/student ratio and insisting on only district employees. They have to think about safety and liability issues, no matter how unfair that mandate seems. Do any of your students have parents who are district employees of any type who could volunteer their time? Or does the teacher have to be paid?

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Affirmative action doesn't fit under the values of any self respecting organization. Time to move on.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

FIRST is irrelevant to any discussion of affirmative action. Any decisions regarding affirmative action on a team shouldn't have any hazy knowledge of "the spirit of FIRST" in mind at all.

I don't believe telling one person they can't be on the team because of their race, gender, or socioeconomic status is ever good, unless your team is specifically set up for something (i.e. an all girl's team).

I also think there is some merit to looking at your gender ratio and asking "why".

I believe at this point, socioeconomic status has more to do with diversity than race.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Always an interesting learning experience when kids (or adults) learn that discrimination is not only unavoidable, it's necessary -- and is often a good thing. (We discriminately give welfare dollars only to the poor, and I think we can all agree that if we're going to be giving welfare dollars to anybody, we might ought to discriminate based on socio-economic status. We discriminate by training/occupation, because we'd rather not have a plumber represent us in court (or a lawyer install our new bathroom). We discriminate by height, weight, and age on amusement park rides. Etc.)

The question isn't whether or not to discriminate in determining membership on a FIRST team. You do that already (even if it's criteria such as 9-12th grade, student at your school or in your district, expresses interest in the team -- that's still discrimination). Some teams do it with other criteria (skills benchmarks, GPA, fundraising dollars). Some teams discriminate by gender (all girls teams, for example, though this discrimination is often de facto through gender-specific schools). I don't know of any teams that discriminate by ethnicity.

Discrimination comes in various categories, and you can come up with a sort of dichotomous key to determine if it is appropriate for whatever it is you're trying to do.

---------

...and if I did that right, I just completely avoided expressing my own opinions on affirmative action. :D

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Note that many potential sponsors (such as the company I work for) will refuse to look at any grant or sponsorship application for organizations which discriminate on the basis of race, creed, gender, sexual orientation, age, religion, disability, national origin, etc.

Just something to keep in mind.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Instead of asking questions about Affirmative Action, wouldn't it be a better idea to spend time looking for teachers willing to help the team without being paid for an afterschool activity? I think you should also find out why your school has this policy and if mentors can be counted as part of the ratio instead of just the teachers.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

I think the best answer might involve thinking about creative ways to continue to allow interested students to participate. For example, do you have to meet in the school? Maybe a sponsor or some other organization in your local community has a larger space they would be able to offer to you to meet at certain times. Would there be rules about teacher to student ratios if you meet offsite? There are plenty of teams that aren't actually affiliated with the schools their students are from as well - you could potentially become an independent entity and these restrictions would go away. You could also consider other options like having different subsets of the team meet at different times so that there are never too many students at any one time.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

A lot of these issues may have to do with union contracts. For example, it's possible that a teacher may not be able to do it on a voluntary basis due to union restrictions. The 35:1 ratio might also be dictated by the union contract (since if they hold the school to that ratio, it will require more teachers to be hired which equals more job security).

With all that being said, I know absolutely nothing about the school district in question, but I know similar union policies are in effect elsewhere. And not just in teachers unions - similar job security provisions are in place in pilot unions, skilled trades unions, etc.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

When our team was experiencing rapid growth we instituted a process whereby team members had to fill in an application form, indicating which roles they were interested in filling and what experience they had to support their ability to perform those roles. They also had to get signatures from two teachers attesting to their ability to work in a group setting and to have demonstrated good work habits in their classes.

From this we selected the applicants based solely upon their skills and experience. (Strangely we were able to find a space for everyone who applied... the simple process of having to fill in an application form helped keep a lid on numbers.)

It would be ideal to include everyone who wants to be on the team, but it is likely far more important to ensure that everyone who IS on the team has a quality experience.

Not all of the teachers sponsoring our team were technology education teachers. One of the most important adult mentors on our team was a business education teacher. She organized a number of students with business interests to manage our communications, finance and fundraising. Remember... it's not all about the robot.

Finally, in regard to affirmative action, it can be implemented in a number of ways. The negative responses to a.a. usually come when it is implemented by selecting one candidate over another because of some characteristic... gender, ethnicity, etc. that is unrelated to the job at hand. A different approach, being taken by a number of police departments and fire departments here in Metro Vancouver, is to work hard to recruit applicants from under represented groups, but then to select the very best applicants from the entire pool based on job-related criteria (and yes, the ability to speak multiple languages, in a multicultural city, is an important job related criteria).

Basically, however, if you look at affirmative action from the point of view of "why are some groups underrepresented", and "how do we increase our appeal to underrepresented groups", it is possible to have a valid, meaningful, non-discriminatory selection process that selects the very best candidates on the basis of merit, but from a larger pool of applicants.

A good question... one of those learning experiences for the team members that reinforces the idea that FIRST isn't just about the robot.

Jason

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

This. Differentiating based on any superficial criteria (gender, race, or other demographic) only serves to reinforce the false idea that they matter. Do not use affirmative action ideas to select which team members are cut, should it come to that.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Here, we have a volunteer mentor (parent) who went through the steps to become qualified to supervise children. The person is also able to hold keys. It basically consists of a background check, and a bunch paperwork. You may be able to do something similar if your school agrees to it and you have someone willing.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

You should never make any decision in life based on a superficial demographic, and especially not when dealing with High School Students. If someone gets cut for a reason that they cannot control, then it usually results in a nasty situation.

A long time ago, someone I know was cut from a drive team because 'The Drive Team needed a female member' - even though, he was a much more qualified human player than she was. He and his friends weren't very happy for the rest of the season and that negative attitude infected the rest of the team.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Systematic oppression of people based upon "superficial" criteria is a real thing that happens in the real world. Sometimes, throwing someone a bone and giving them a shot -- even if they're not the best candidate for the task -- will save their life.

If you had $1 million dollars to give away, would you give it to a person that already has $10 million dollars or to a person that has $10?

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

I wouldn't give it away. I may trade it for goods or a services though. If the person with $10 had the services/goods I wanted I would provide the money to them in exchange for said items. Same with the owner of the $10 million.


But hey, if you are giving out $1 million I'd be more than willing to take it off your hands.

Basically, I think that students should be given a chance based on fair exchange, what they bring to the team in exchange for what they get out of it.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

I don't see how this is relevant, if you decided that your team should only be made up of the most unqualified students or some percentage of under-qualified students, or some percent of lottery students to give everyone a chance that is your choice (Although I personally oppose it). But why should the unqualified girl, or black kid or whatever get on over someone in the same position with only a superficial difference?

EDIT: Also, your analogy has many differences from robotics. If I had money to give away I would give it to the person for whom it would make the most difference (in this analogy the person with $10), similarily in robotics you give spots to people who will get the most out of the team, and that is often the person who puts the most into the team (I mean in devotion not skills).

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

The difference is not superficial. An African-American student or a female student each face different sorts of institutionalized discrimination throughout their entire life. The reason that they may be less qualified for a position on your team is precisely because they're African-American or female -- nothing superficial about it.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Absolutely not. I'm a girl, and I would not at all like that I may have been chosen for a spot over someone more fitting, simply because I lacked a y chromosome.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

1.) They must be trained technology education teachers. As far as I know, this requires a degree, so we can't ordain anyone. Mentors, other teachers, and parents don't count.

2.) So far, we have a system that allows everyone to be doing something, be it machining, design, videography, etc...

Thanks! Thats really useful information. And I agree, it is more of an ethical issue than a legal one.


Yes, as answered above. As long as we keep it at around 50, everyone is doing something all the time, since any given night, only 40-45 will show up.


It's the exact same brick wall we're running up with.

The school does have a TSA option, but I don't know how much we want to form an FTC of VEX program. It doesn't really solve the funding problems. It also raises the issue of there being a higher level of the team that some people aren't on. It could even turn into an equality issue if more minorities were on the FTC team.

When I use the term 'best' I mean most inspired. Most ready and willing to be enthusiastic in FRC.

Our team is pretty heavily built upon everyone having a role in the team, and coming to most, if not all meetings during the build season. There are some members who are essential, and would be there every day. I worry that we would be unable to propagate a new crop of 'essential members' if everyone couldn't be there every day. It also adds a whole new level of complication and headache.

They gave us the extra teacher last year, by executive order, so we're hoping for it again this year. We've also prepared a presentation for them, hopefully we'll be able to give it!

1.) We want to influence the most people in the best way each. Essentially a net goodness. So, for example, if we can influence 20 people with 5 units of arbitrary goodness, that is not as good as influencing 10 people with 10 units. Or atleast to keep it equal.

It's not 100% up to us as the team.

Socioeconomic status is another thing we are being asked to help include on the team, as well as race, sex, etc...



Good point.

Thats our last plan if all else fails. I responded earlier why mentors can't be included.

We really do have to meet at the school; we do homework at the school until the meetings start, have an excellent machine shop at the school, and our space is sufficient enough. I responded earlier about subsets meeting at different times.

Our school district is the Ithaca City School District. There has been quite a lot of conflict in the last few years about the teachers union here: Most all teachers are part of it, and there were some serious issues with getting their contract renewed.


1.) We've noticed this too, but we're not going to weed 30 people out by making them fill out forms.

2.)Good point, but since we've already had our first new members meeting, the recruiting phase is pretty much over.

3.)True, but we still want the most dedicated, interested people on the team, if their interest is in the robot, then great. If it's in web design then great. If all they want to do is community service, thats great too.


Not possible at our district, as aforementioned.

I would be so mad if that happened to me.

An interesting perspective, but will the person you give the 10 million to squander it?



So, that should cover responses. I will write up my opinion later tonight, but I have to leave right now. Thanks for all who took the time to put in their opinions, it is very much appreciated.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

As an African-American I myself have never faced discrimination to my face (years ago when I went to a store with my friend after I passed by the front desk one of the clerks said to the other pointing at me "Keep an eye on that $@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#." He almost went over the counter after the idiot) and I do think Affirmative Action is flawed but lets not kid ourselves here,there is hatred and discrimination still in this country and in this world and it needs to be dealt with. The staus quo is all fine and dandy when it favors one group of people every time all the time but to think that the "lower classes" are just going to get tired of being second class citizens and are going to suddenly lift themselves up by the bootstraps is inane.
So to those who say that Affirmative Action is a great evil does that mean you support the staus quo or do you have something better that will cure the ills that hundreds of years of wrongdoing have caused so many who have so little to fall behind?

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

EDIT: -SNIP- looks like this got posted earlier after all.

Now my opinion!

I think that affirmative action is the completely wrong way to go about it--as far as cuts go. I am all for targeting recruiting to certain socioeconomic groups that would not usually be interested, but I can see no way shape or form in which it would be fair to choose one candidate over another purely for their race, gender, or socioeconomic condition. As the vice president of the team, I will do everything in my power to make sure this does not happen.

Thanks everyone for your opinions, it has been really great to hear other sides of the story, as well as multiple people backing me up. Keep the opinions coming, and I'll keep you guys updated as to what ends up happening.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Okay, let's put Madison's million dollar proposition another way. I don't have a million to give away, but I do have volunteer hours. Hundreds of them every year, freely given to an FRC team. I couldn't imagine trading this time for goods or services.

Having to reduce team size for what seems like an arbitrary reason stinks, plain and simple. My view is as a mentor though and if I had to participate in the reduction, I'd think long and hard about what kids benefit the most. Is it the kids who already know how to dedicate themselves to the cause, or is it the kids who haven't yet learned this? I don't see where ethnicity or gender would come into this thought process.

Ivan

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

My team is already one of the biggest teams in MN (over 50 members last year) predicting more this year. With this in mind, we are planning to start multiple FTC teams to make sure everyone has a task to work on. (We have never done FTC before). We plan to have a few veterans lead the FTC teams, but the FTC teams will be the default placement for all freshmen who join, kind of like a Junior Varsity. Grouping FTC mainly by age prevents any attacks about equality.

If needed we will pull up a student on to the FRC team if they have certain skills that the FRC team requires. Our goal is to allow everyone join the team and feel like they are on our team while keeping them busy with meaningful tasks. The FTC teams might help in our intial design process for FRC, but we haven't really figured everything out yet.

While our teams will meet concurrently, having all the freshmen or all the new members on FTC teams could allow you to more easily meet at different times of the day so you only need 1 teacher.

In terms of money, FTC tends to be less expensive.

I hope this helps and good luck.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Education and Opportunity. Not entitlements. Just the right not to be Kept Down by The Man.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Opportunity and entitlement is certainly a very, very fine line.

If these issues were simple enough for me to have a succinct opinion about, they wouldn't be challenging.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Methinks the goal would be to equalize opportunity to succeed from the very beginning of one's life, regardless of race, gender, etc, without resorting to using race, gender, etc. as a criteria for selection.

Then again, nothing's ever that simple.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

I don't know who I heard this from, but its a brilliant idea:

• Hold a meeting and include as many people qualified to fill the role of "extra teacher" as possible. Give a presentation and tell them what you do and how great it is.
• Pass around a calender and ask if each teacher will sign up for a day or two to supervise.

I've been told that some teachers, after seeing what really goes on, WANTED to come more often to supervise.

This allows the teachers to help out without giving a huge time commitment. The days that don't get volunteers might require some voluntolding by high-er ups (as you mentioned this has happened before), surprise voluntolding (students asking teachers really nicely), or condensed meetings (only x amount of kids working on projects a, b, and c can come).

Solutions that don't involve barring students! :D

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Ahh, didn't catch that one, I did mean most skilled but referred to it as best. Further clouding the issue.

And I didn't think of Katie's solution, unless your school requires you to pay the teacher, see if you can get shifts setup. Maybe a teacher will sit around grading tests after their exam days that they would normally do in their office instead.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

I would ask folks to temper their discrimination concerns with the understanding that not all programs have the same goals. Madison and several others are trying to help show that some times those factors come into play more than you might think.

Both Purdue ME and a previous employer had programs that sounded really neat. You got to take products apart and reverse engineer them. The employer based one even had a competition format. The traditional "best candidate" would be someone with a ton of experience working on these sorts of things, but that was the exact opposite of the programs goals. These programs were specifically designed to help young engineers gain hands on experience. The organizers of the programs did not care who won. Their goal was to make these individuals into better engineers.
Both of these programs discriminated on age (or year in school) and experience. Groing up on a farm working on tractors, and building cars during afterschool projects actually made me a poor candidate for the program as I had those experiences already.
There were also a lot of older engineers I felt should have gone through the program, but the company wanted to invest in those they may get the most return on, which were not the folks ready to retire.

If your goal is to win matches... Pick the most capable candidate. If your goal is to change lives... Sometimes you pick those that need the most change. Different teams have different goals and different measures of success. Often it is not about how many points made on the scoreboard, but the points you have made in the students mind (compassion, sportmanship, professionalism, work ethic....).

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Then that isn't affirmative action. That is having a certain set of criteria. To me affirmative action has been having a different set of criteria for two otherwise identical applicants. Take me and my hypothetical twin, we both have a degree, same family, same life experiences.

Let's assume that we have the same GPA and did everything together so have the same level of experience. You can only hire one of us. If you decide that my twin gets the job because she is female I object to that.

Now, if you have a person identical to me in every way except they don't have any experience with FIRST I have no objection to them being chosen for a team over me if your criteria are to impact the lives of your students.

For the most part I'm fine with teams choosing whatever criteria they want (I'm a pizza kind of guy, put whatever you want on yours but don't tell me what to put on mine). The extent of this is when a team says "we only want girls" or "we only want students from X ethnicity" and turn away otherwise qualified applicants who have no where else to go.

That being said, I'm a middle class white male so my opinions on anything dealing with racism or sexism are immediately based on ignorance. (Thank you Social Psychology professor for THAT line)

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

I completely agree. Our team went through something similar a few years ago. One student thought that was why a female student got a position over them. This was not at all true, but its really hurt the girl's feelings.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

If all of my criteria are truly equal, what would be an acceptable differentiator to use? Should I have the two of you guys arm wrestle? Staring match? Generally the issue arises where the "discriminating factor" weighting allows for the otherwise most qualified candidate to be passed up.
For instance, bumping the "3rd" most qualified applicant up to #1 due to some other factor.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Personality? Punctuality? Best fit for the environment?

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

This. Compatible personalities can make a less qualified or less skilled team more effective.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

I'm the administrator of the team in question and I can shed a little more light as well. In regards to asking other teachers qualified to help, Grim isn't mentioning a few things. One of our current mentors is both a parent of a member and a tech teacher in the district. If necessary we could potentially ask him if he's willing to supervise as an official tech teacher without compensation. We're hesitant to do this for a few reasons, the main being that our current faculty adviser feels its morally wrong for him to get paid but for a fellow teacher not to when they're doing the same work he is. Another reason is the fact that he's not able to come every night so some nights we'd have to limit the number of team members coming. Another thing is that all of the other tech teachers in the district are already involved with other technology clubs, and don't have time to.

We do have other opportunities to allow for a larger team, such as groups that come on different days as some of you have suggested, but none are ideal. We've been given permission to fund this in any way we wish including sponsors but we'd have to find a way to record hours and funds given to the various tech teachers working. In more depth we could have systems heads and team leads attend every night but have two groups that switch on and off, but this would hinder the very familial aspect of the team that we cherish as well as make members feel like because they're only there half the time they didn't mean as much to the team.

Code Red's main focus is to help anyone and everyone learn. Whether it be learning how to build how to design or even how to manage the business end of things, everyone on the team is learning. We feel it is completely unfair to prevent freshmen and sophomores from joining because of their age because often they are the most willing to learn. That being said we have a very uneven spread of grades with around half of the team last year was composed of class of '13 and even more want to join this year. Our view of seniors joining is generally very different from most teams and clubs in general. We believe that seniors should not be given priority because we see it as they've had three years before this to try to join but haven't where as freshmen or sophomores have a chance to continue and grow on the team for years to come.

As Grim said, we do pride ourselves in having a role for everyone and every interest within the team. We use the team as an opportunity to teach people willing to be taught, it does not matter what they look like or what socioeconomic background they're from. However, not basing off of skill makes cuts very difficult. We can't give tests based on skill because we encourage a wide range of skills to join and for the most part, people don't know exactly what they want to do on the team. We try to judge mainly on interest and dedication but those are both attributes that are very difficult to judge, for instance we had one member on the team last year who was extremely dedicated and interested in joining, but once build season came she lacked the follow through. This has drifted off affirmative action but it's all relative to the fact that we have not come up with a good system to determine cuts. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Actually, while I was being interviewed for my current position I was not asked technical questions. The majority of the interview was personality type questions to see about the fit for the company. Tech skills can be taught, having a crap personality is harder to fix and more annoying to deal with.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

The only "good" way to answer this question is on a per student basis. A student that is already skilled at the trade, but lacks people skills has a great need for the team. A student that is very outgoing and interested, but doesn't know a thing about technology has a great need for the team. A student who is here simply because their friends are, could benefit from the team in an unforeseen way but has no "great need" for the team. Take them student by student and check each one and think, what will this student get from the team? If you have a definite idea, add them automatically. After that, then it becomes tougher.

A little story that might make you think. A teacher of mine once told me of a time when he was in the military. He was in boot camp and there was one guy that always fell behind the others. He was a great guy that everyone was friends with, but never-the-less he was always dragging them down. After a while, it was decided that they weren't doing him any favors by dragging him along. Yes, he was making it to the finish line but he wasn't really getting anything from it because the military just wasn't for him. Sometimes, enthusiasm just isn't enough. Sometimes, ability does matter more then a willingness to learn even in a place like FIRST. I mean, student A has a natural talent and learns much about engineering practices from the team. Student B struggles with robotics but is dedicated and learns life skills in the process. Even though student B was more dedicated and such, there might have been a greater impact on student A. It is completely impossible to judge. I'm not suggesting there is a fool-proof way to. I'm just saying that you need to take the students into consideration one at a time and not set up a bureaucratic system.

I know my story may strike a nerve with some here, I mean no offense to the many who have overcome great obstacles. I just know the hardest working man I have ever met that struggles with the most basic problems from our shared classes(400 level undergraduate engineering courses). I work with him for most of the homework and am dedicated to helping him earn his degree, but I do wonder how he will actually do in the work place once he gets it. I whole-heartedly support him, but I'm sometimes unsure if I'm really doing him any favors in the process.

In short, |FIRST|=f(ability, dedication). Don't neglect either of your inputs if you want a reliability judgement.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Me too! Funny how that works. :D

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Thank you for the additional insight. My only suggestion would be that the additional teacher need not be a tech studies teacher. Having a business education teacher as one of our team leaders was a very valuable asset. Her presence brought many new members to the team. (In an aside, dealing with the affirmative action aspects of this thread, having an adult female as one of the team leaders was a definite asset in getting more girls to join the team. Many became more interested in engineering, tools and technology as a result. There are ways to take positive action to address inequalities that do not involve disadvantaging another group.)

As a tech studies teacher (and now a teacher of future tech studies teachers) myself, I appreciate the value of the skills we bring to this competition, and was fortunate to work with some other outstanding tech teachers on our team over the years. But while we were busy down in the shop, there was another team busy preparing our promotional material, community involvement, web presence, chairman's presentation, fundraising campaigns, and overall team image. By the time you add in FIRST paperwork, field trip forms, travel and hotel arrangements, passports, travel medical insurance (okay... probably not a big deal for you, but it was for us) there was a lot of "clean hands" work to be done. Sometimes "build team" members saw this work as less important, or less demanding than building the robot, but they never seemed to have a problem handing out team buttons, posing with our mascot, coming down to accept a website award, or having a few skilled communicators ready to coordinate judging interviews and promote our team come alliance selection time! Some of our invitations into the elimination rounds, and several of our team's FRC awards were directly attributable to the work of this team. Our recognition as "Vancouver's Youth Group of the Year" was 100% due to their hard work and initiative.

It may also be possible to find a teacher with an interested math/physics/computer background to assist with programming, or perhaps CAD modelling of robot designs. If your team has, indeed, identified that you would like to reach a broader cross-section of the school population, perhaps there is a teacher who would be a good role model for or has good connections with the students you would like to recruit...?

So my advice, given your situation, would be to remember that it isn't all about the robot and there are many meaningful ways for adults and students alike to be involved with the team. Not all of them involve using power tools.

Jason

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

My daughter's team had an elementary teacher and a HS psychology teacher as mentors. We also had two engineering mentors from our sponsor company.

You might try to focus your efforts at changing the school policy that the mentors must be from tech ed.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Our two teachers are a physics/ASL teacher (me) and a math teacher.

Re: Does Affirmative Action fit under the values of FIRST
 

Unfortunately this solution does not help us because we need the extra tech teacher so that we can have another room open where people can be machining. While we do have other professions involved in mentoring, this person must be a tech teacher. As far as bringing in more girls interested, we don't have much of an issue with recruiting girls. Last year there was a dramatic increase in involvement with girls and this seems to be a lasting trend.