Favorite wheels
 

My fellow team mate and I were talking this morning on our favorite types of wheels. Not just for competition robots, for any kind of robot. So, Chief Delphi, what's your favorite type of wheel? Be it IFI or for some reason regolith wheels, we all have a favorite type!

Re: Favorite wheels
 

Omni wheels. They make the best holonomic drivetrains for smaller robots outside of FRC.
Inside FRC, I like pneumatic tires. A lot of teams use mountainboard wheels which I find really cool.

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I really like the plasticon wheels. team 159 has also used coleson wheels before and they worked well.

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I like Colson wheels because they're inexpensive, durable, fairly grippy on carpet, easy to make hubs for, and you never have to replace the tread. You can run them all year long, even outdoors some (parades) and never worry about a thing. On the downside, they are a bit heavy.

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AM Performance wheels are pretty nice. Colsons are pretty good too.

For dead axles, IFI wheels are plenty good as well as the bearing varieties of AM wheels.

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^that guy forgot to mention he also really likes mecanum wheels^

:D

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When talking FRC on a budget, it's hard to beat taking the AM kit wheels, bandsawing off the gray rubber, and riveting on your own roughtop or wedgetop. You take your wheels to the next level for an evening's work and the $15-20 in tread.

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71% efficiency is best efficiency. ;)

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Why bandsaw? Just wood screw the tread right in. Not the prettiest thing but it is effective.

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You'll get a wheel a bit bigger than six inches. May or may not be desired.

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Most Favorite Wheels: Colson Casters
For a long time I have been looking for a zero mantaince wheel that has a better CoF than the kit wheels.* We finally got the chance to try them this year and couldn't be happier. Driving them is fairly simple in a live axle setup, but we custom machined some flanged hubs with bearings to run them on dead axles. Pending no major wrenches in next years game, we'll likely do the same, with some improvements.

Least Favorite "Wheels": BrecoFlex Cogs w/ Tank Treads.
My experience 2010 tells me (and everyone else that was on FRC229 that year) that tank treads are not worth the trouble or the fear of snapping belts. I know some teams have been successful with them, but I personally won't support a design with them unless I absolutely have to.

*This not not to say that other wheels arn't great, for most teams IFI wheels, AM Performance, and AM plaction wheels are an excellent choice, and the ability to change out the tread and try different things can be an advantage.

Re: Favorite wheels
 

I've been using Colsons off and on since 05 and I couldn't agree more. The wheels simply require no maintenance once you assemble your drive. They come in an extremely wide array of sizes and widths too, which allows you to really pinpoint a wheel size that works best for you. Getting a little creative with them can also yield some higher CoF which puts them on par (or better) than some other common wheels/treads.

-Brando

Re: Favorite wheels
 

Given how the rubber is molded onto the wheels, we feel it's better to trim down the gray rubber to ensure we've got a really solid connection to the black plastic. Wheel size is not really a factor, since we usually buy non-kit sprockets to reach the final speed we deem desirable.

Re: Favorite wheels
 

Got help from Foss from 2168 to make a really really simple Colson mod for the kitbot chassis. Needless to say Colsons are pretty popular out here in the East coast. We'll hopefully be using them this year on our bots.

Re: Favorite wheels
 

I remain a big fan of pneumatic tires.

First I like that they come with a small amount of suspension baked in.

But the main reason I like them is that there are versions that are just amazing in terms of gripping the carpet -- it has been years, but I think that there was some data publically available that showed that they were better than the rough top conveyor belt at gripping the carpet (especially if there are uneven surfaces involved).

There are 8" "mountain board" wheels (also used on wheel chairs) that I liked a lot.

But... ...I am admittedly old school on this front.

Joe J.

Re: Favorite wheels
 

Personally, I am a huge fan of the AndyMark Performance wheels. If given a preference, I like wedgetop treads, but roughtop works just the same.

Re: Favorite wheels
 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being old school, I'm still a huge fan of dead axles and #35 chain in drivetrains and if I could find a 4" pneumatic wheel I'd be totally up for testing them out.

In the "modern era" of FIRST you may want to look at 330, 469, and 1114 from 2010, they were rocking pnuematic wheels if I remember correctly.

Re: Favorite wheels
 

We have done some tests that back up this statement. There are certain pneumatic tires that perform extremely well in terms of grip. However, they are sometimes difficult to interface with.

Our decision to use Colsons has been based on several factors. We find the balance of solid grip, a wide range of sizes, extreme durability and ease of interfacing (hubs) to be tough to match in other wheels.

-Brando

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We at AndyMark world headquarters are working on an 200x50mm pneumatic wheel that solves this problem, making these wheels utilize a standard FIRST-type sprocket and hub mounting interface.

We are planning for a release near Thanksgiving.

Andy

Re: Favorite wheels
 

You just made my day.

-Brando

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Today is a great day.

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I love Andymark! :D

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I'll say it too, this is great news

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I've been fantasizing for years about a 4" pneumatic wheel on the market similar in style to what 330/1114 have used, but what 469 uses would also be different. Quite a bit different from what you're making... but hey, if the 8" takes off, might move down to 4"? ;)

Re: Favorite wheels
 

When it comes to bang for the buck I really like AM 4" performance wheels. They saved us a ton of machining this year verses our custom 4" wheels we've made in past years.

Also I too am a fan of pnuematic tires, and we came up with a good live axle hub design at least 10 years ago for them, but 4" wheels give so much more design flexibility.

Re: Favorite wheels
 

We've been thinking about this too. Finding a commercially-available 4" pneumatic tire might be the big hurdle to cross. 8" tires (200x50mm) are easily available, but 4" are non-existent.

What about the pneumatic tire do you guys like?

Obviously, there is the "baked in" compliance, as Dr. Joe mentioned. The other feature is a high coefficient of friction.

Do you need this compliance to be variable, as with pneumatic tires (you just change the air pressure, of course)? Or, would you guys accept a compliant wheel that would not have variable compliance?

Andy

Re: Favorite wheels
 

Personally Andy,

A variable compliance would be great! In 2010 we were looking at pneumatic wheels and loved what 330/1114 did that year.

-They do have a nice coefficient of friction

-They absorb shock as you land!

-Perfect for offseason stuff/No replacing tread

-4" allows you to make custom gearboxes for drive within in 2 stages nicely/compact.

-Perfect for stair/obstacle climbing.

I've had some thoughts about these wheels a while ago. Andy, I believe there is a company that we spoke to that could make the same type of wheels in about 3-4" IIRC, with a min of 500 pieces. Let me see if I can dig up some information.

-RC

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The problem is the tire, not the wheel, no?

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In 2004 we used 6" pnuematic wheels from Skyway ... They worked out ok, just don't pop them, replacing the inner tub is not fun!!

http://www.skywaywheels.com/products_004.htm

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If speed and agility is the main concern, then I find AM mecanums to be nice. just be sure to use the newer gray rollers and not the older black ones. when direct driven by toughbox nanos they tend to be pretty foolproof... my fromer team, 2783, used that type setup in 2011 and there were no issues regarding the drivetrain.

In addition, they save the programming squad a lot of time... being part programmer I know the level of *fun* swerve code can be...

the only wheel I really have a strong opinion on was the 8" coolie dualies. Anymark no longer has them on their site, and to those reading this, you should be very grateful. I remember from 2008 (on 1747) how bad they seemed to bend... the robot had 2 AM performance wheels in the front and 2 coolie dualies int he back... the robot killed all 4 we had on hand and had we had more the number would have gone up from there. I am not sure why they taco'd so easily but it was very frustrating... It seems that the newer dualies are of better and stonger design.

Re: Favorite wheels
 

Our team has always used literal tank treads as our drive system. We're looking to change that this year, with a pre-season 6WD IFI frame, that we can use to test stuff on during the season.

A Couple questions:

Why do people prefer who prefer Andymark over IFI wheels prefer them?

For the teams that use IFI wheels, what size do you use?

Someone mentioned changing the treads on them. How often do they get worn out?

Re: Favorite wheels
 

To be honest, I'm unsure what we need in the specifics you're asking. We love the freedom 4" wheels provide in gearing, and how they are inherently much lighter than larger wheels. We also will never, ever, ever consider running low traction wheels.

The reason we want pneumatics is in case it's 2010 all over again, our robot (and 254's) both crashed down HARD when passing the bump, and we both loosely talked about implementing suspensions but never did. Both robots clearly survived all season. The second I saw 1114's robot I was in love with their use of them as a simple suspension. I'm not a fan of the 6" changing the gearing so much, nor the heavier weight, but the 6" wheels they used would be our current go to option in the future.

The huge issue is weight, it's hard to stomach 1-2 lbs per wheel when you're used to wheels that are .22 lbs each.

In summary, we've love 4" ones. That makes them feasible for swerve as well.....

Re: Favorite wheels
 

I prefer the andymark wheels because I think they are a little more efficient and a little more durable. because the IFI wheels are not perfectly round I would think that they are less efficient (no testing here, just my thoughts) A while ago we had some IFI wheels and they seemed like they wouldn't handle side loads as well as the plastic andymark wheels in the 8 and to lesser extent 6 inch size. andymark wheels also don't require a flanged bearing, so more options are available for bearings (such as the ones that come in the KOP)

Re: Favorite wheels
 

We can get them with a 1/2" hex broached hub.

Our tread almost never wears out. Our 2007 robot did 2 regionals, the championship, 2 off seasons and has been our standard practice bot ever since and we have never re-tread it.

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Plactions are cheaper than IFI wheels in the 6-8 inch sizes, I believe.

For live axles, you need an AndyMark hub to use an IFI wheel live, which is a lot more weight. With AM you can just use Performance wheels.

Other than that, nothing wrong with IFI wheels. If we went dead axle and wanted roughtop tread, we'd use them. The wheels not being round just doesn't matter.

Smaller is better unless you have a design need to go bigger.

Not all that often. Maybe once a season. Wedgetop wears much faster than roughtop. Our tread on AM wheels lasted until we drove the wheel on asphalt for several hours. Apparently that dings up the rivets enough to throw tread? Who'da thunk it.

Re: Favorite wheels
 

Just to add to what Chris said, the tread wear varies noticeably depending on the tread compound. Natural Rubber wears the fastest, sometimes within one hard event, Nitrile Rubber wears a little slower, you can usually get at least two events out of the tread, and Blue Nitrile wears the slowest (As far as I know) usually, most teams can get an entire season out of these treads.

Re: Favorite wheels
 

While we are likely to continue running colson wheels due to thier price to performance ratio, and some unique properties that we've discovered I have been doing some research into semi-pneumatic and pneumatic small diameter wheels.

It seems that the smallest readily useable COTS wheel are the 6" diameter ones 330 and 1114 have used successfully. While heavy I believe a custom rim/hub could go along way to making them lighter and easier to work with.

Another option might be to make custom beadlock style rim/hub assembly to use Remote Control Truck Tires, with foam inside, the foam would have to be adjusted to something more dense than what is currently used in that application, but a semi-pneumatic wheel, with COTS available tread could be rather nice. Has anyone looked into this?

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Wouldn't that be like using a can of "fix a flat" on a car? But with the wheel being semi-pneumatic the material should be able to help define the wheels compressibility (is that a word?) by helping the existing rigidity or the tire material and shape.

Sounds like a neat idea to try, but it would seem you are either going to have to cut a ring shaped donut to put inside the tire or use expanding foam.

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When would we want to use roughtop vs wedgetop?

Re: Favorite wheels
 

Semi-pneumatic RC car tires rely entirely on the foam for support, there is no way to pressurize the tire with air (at least in my experience).

You would have to use a ring-shaped piece of foam, or bend a straight piece of foam. RC car tires have a soft enough bead that I would stuff the tire with foam, then install it on the wheel. The same could be done with robot wheels. Alternatively, the wheel could be two-piece and clamp onto the tire/foam combo from both sides in the same way that airplane and truck tires are mounted on wheels.

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Last time I built an RC car I was in high school, and the one I had used three piece wheels and the rubber tires without an insert. The rims were set up to allow airflow in and out of the tire, do they still make them like that?

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I have too many rc cars, and have spent a lot of time looking at RC car tires for FRC applications. What you used were beadlock rims, which are common enough, but usually not used by most serious RC people.

Most RC tires are going to be a foam for suspension, a one piece rubber tire, and a one piece wheel/hub (the tire bear is glued on). Some hubs come with holes to vent, which is really the wrong place for them (the tire itself should be vented), but that's off topic.

The only RC tires that have rubber even close to possibly, maybe, sort of hold up to FRC applications are made for what is known as 1/5 scale cars (most specifically the hpi baja 5b/5s/5t. Unfortunately, these tires/wheels are in the 6" size range making existing pneumatic tires more desirable for FRC applications.

All of the 3-4" sized tires are simply too weak to hold up to FRC drivetrains. For intakes and rollers, they're still a good option when you want the roller itself to have some give and suspension.

Re: Favorite wheels
 

Concerning an easy interface to 8" pneumatic, when I used them last (with 2849 in Columbia), I made two jigs that allowed the kids on our team to make the modifications necessary to attach a sprocket using only a drill press. One jig help modify the plastic hub, the other modified standard AndyMark sprockets (Andy, why don't you guys put in a mess of additional hole patterns in your spockets to facilitate such monkey business? -- it easy for me to say but I think that you could do it for essentially no cost)

Anyway, my problem is that I've moved twice since then and I am not sure I can put my hands on it. Plus the end result was heavier than I'd like.

This year, my proto chassis is going to use the wheel in the attached photo* I plan to use dead axles (and you probably should too -- unless you have really good reasons not to) and the as shipped standard hub (with my kluge attachment of drive sprockets).

If I use them on our competition robot, we will likely do something else. This AndyMark hub sounds interesting, but if I don't like that, I think I can make a much lighter 200X50 hub that is something akin to IFI's hubs. I would plan on using AL side plates spaced apart by standard plastic spacers from McMaster. These spacers would form the ID of the tire bead. I will encircle these spacers with a thin AL strip that will support the ID of the tube (Strip: 0.032 thick roughly 50mm by 650mm ~ pi X 200mm + 20mm overlap). ... I think it could be light, strong and ... awesome.

But... The devil is in the details.

I should CAD this up and post it. Stay tuned.

Joe J.

*You can buy these from mobilitydirect.com (no ties financial or otherwise) they are not "on the menu" but you can order them just the same see my correspondence below:

Yes we do sell these.
To order please give us a call at 877-914-1830.
Refer to part #080200-3-4
Description: CASTER, 8 x 2, 4-HOLE 2-PIECE RIM, KNOBBY PNEU TIRE, 3/8" PREC. BRGS
Price - $34.65ea

Ron
Customer Service
MobilityDirect.com
info@mobilitydirect.com

Re: Favorite wheels
 

Roughtop v wedgetop is a question of turning and maneuverability. In 2010, out 6WD was roughtop center (for traction and pushing power) with wedgetop corners, for turning. Of course, our centers were dropped.

IMO, the dense spacing between ridges on roughtop treading makes it harder to pivot on roughtop, whereas the spacing on wedgetop wheels allows the ridges to fold over as you turn, making turning easier - though I could be wrong.

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We've always used all roughtop and never really had any issue turning. I'm sure tread material is a factor, but it can be compensated for in your drop distance.

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Why no pics of your favorite wheels teams?

If you are using a dead axle how are teams interfacing sprockets with Colson wheels and other designs that seem intended or designed to roll un-powered?

Re: Favorite wheels
 

Ask and you shall receive. Attached below is an image of FRC2168’s custom aluminum hubs to adapt the 4”x1.5” Colson Performa wheels to the “standard” AndyMark bolt pattern with tapped 10-32 holes. They are a press fit hub. This design allows us to utilize 3/8” dead axles (grade 8 bolts).

We had zero failures thus far and have not changed the wheels since build season. We fully intend to improve on this initial design to reduce some machine time and run Colson wheels next year if they work in our design/strategy.

Feel free to ask more questions.

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Our hubs were literally the same exact thing and we've had just as good results. Through 2 regionals (both of which playing through the 3rd match of Finals), IRI, and a couple of additional off-seasons, we haven't had to touch our drive train.

-Brando

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Ya I can't wait that long.

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REGOLITH!

Why? you knucklehead!, you might ask. Well, it was my first year on my schools team, and our programmer managed to get our 85 lbs (regestered) to shove around full-weight bots with the trailer at right agles to their desirred movement. :yikes: :D

Last year we got the replacement wheels for AM 8" mecano wheels, then made our own torch/bend aluminum faces for a whole lot less! The only issue was programming/wiring...... Plugged in declarations for Vics instead of Jags, and the whole thing went all wick-wacky at low speeds, but high speeds were just right.....:o

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I'm sorry...What are you trying to say?

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You could probably drill those bigger to save some weight. All you need is a little step to hold the outer race of the bearings. Overall they look good though. Do you knurl them?

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Or you could just use flanged bearings. :)

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Chris has an inside scoop I guess. The newer design does in fact use flanged bearings, a quick look at my blog will show you some of the stuff we've been working on.

Last years hubs were not knurled, and I don't think we'll knurl them in the future either and none of them spun, to my knowledge.

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Question: When people refer to colson wheels, which type are you referring to? I was trying to see if we wanted to use colsons this year, and couldn't figure out which kind of caster we would want.

Re: Favorite wheels
 

Colson Performa casters.

http://www.colsoncaster.com/products...x?productid=44

-Brando

Re: Favorite wheels
 

my favorite is our custom 12" pneumatic mecanum wheels