Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

I've been doing some research, and found out that a lot (not all) of the real successful teams in FIRST have a large area to practice in, or at least enough room for a practice field. Does anyone think these two could be related? If so, I'm hoping to use it as a fact for a presentation given to my school about why we need a bigger room to practice in (It's currently tiny).

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

Yes. I know that one of the top drivers in FRC (in his day--he's graduated) wore multiple sets of wheels out practicing during his career. You don't need a full practice field, per se, but a 1/2-length or 1/3 width could do the work very well (depending on the year), and anything larger would be simply extra room to get other robots out there with you.

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

Yes.

All of the good teams I know build practice robots and practice on large fields (whether or not they are their own).

Without a practice field, you cannot practice. You will get no more than about an hour of field time during a normal FRC competition (assuming you play through the finals). An hour of drive practice (an entire competition worth) is not a ton of time during the build season, but can immensely help driver skills training. When you have a large enough area to do full field drills, you can run up to full speed very easily, and get a much better feel for how the robot will actually handle on the field. Carpet is important for this. As a final thought, it's very hard to program an autonomous if the field isn't big enough to run it fully.

Another thing you might want to compare between teams is work hours and dedication, and building a practice robot. I know of a team (who works across the street from us, we use their practice field occasionally) who works harder than any team I know. When we go to practice (in between competitions), they are always spending late nights (past midnight) practicing, letting their robot cool and building minibots, practicing some more, fixing whatever breaks, etc. while their robot is sitting in its bag in the corner, only to pull it out for a two hour unbag winow and practice some more.

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

Related? Very likely. Does having a practice field cause you to perform better? Not necessarily, but likely.

It's pretty likely that teams that perform better on a regular basis are also teams that seek out additional resources, which could include a practice field. Basically, the teams that have practice fields are probably also the teams that work harder.

In the end, if you think you'll perform better with a practice field and you can reasonably explain why, that's better than any correlational study. Allow me to point out the fallacy of the Appeal to Common Practice.

If you're looking for reasons why a practice field could be beneficial, then just ignore me. This thread would be a great place for that.

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

Thanks for all of your input! I really appreciate it! I was just talking to my team mate who had the idea of a collapsible field, Like, we bring a roll of carpet (with tape, etc.), have mobile scoring pegs, etc. Would that be a viable option?

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

A very viable option and wise decision. A per se "modular" practice field is a great way to prep and test.

Our team uses the school cafeteria during build season as a practice field. Our scoring pegs, walls, and other field components are all easily broken down and placed back in storage by Sunday night (if over the weekend), or every night (if during the work week). The only hassle is the full roll of carpet we have from the 2010 CT Regional. It's best to have a smaller carpet if only testing key robot functions.

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

Thanks! We would mainly be testing smaller robot functions, but not too small. We would still need a place easy enough to fit, but enough room for actual driver practice. We currently use the library, but we have to bring EVERYTHING over there, including robots, minibot poles, tubes, computers, drive stations, scoring racks, EVERYTHING. Plus, it's all the way on the other side of campus. We are trying to get either a bigger room, closer to the middle of school, or another room to use. The school says "maybe soon", but never does anything. We had the idea of having a storage in the library where we can put field parts when not being used, but we're not sure if the library will let us. If we can get a large carpet, we may be able to practice in the cafeteria, since there is a storage area in the back our lead mentor is in charge of.

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

Practice field + Practice bot + Iteration = awesome sauce

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

And who doesn't like Awesome sauce?!

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

Would it be possible to acquire a truck trailer to store parts 'n' stuffs in? We use a classroom for general storage (robots, computers, electronics, tools), and have a trailer located outside that holds travel supplies, game pieces, and raw materials. Our practice field components are stored beneath a stairwell.

Having a shed of sorts may be a viable option if your school allows it. As long as it is secured properly and isn't found as an eye sore I'm sure it'll work as a solution.

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

We have a storage bin, but it's very messy and needs to be cleaned out (on to do list). But, it's on the far side of campus, only next to the thousands of yards of fields our school uses for its highly esteemed sports programs. :(

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

Make a robot that'll pick it up... :rolleyes:

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

But where are we going to store that? :rolleyes:

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

In a bin that another robot you made... made. :cool:

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

Challenge accepted. :cool:

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

Having a practice field definitely helps, but you can be successful without one. My senior year, I drove for Breakaway, and I only got to drive the robot the night before ship, in an area that wasnt big enough for me to get the robot up to full speed. We also didnt have a practice robot. We went 30-13 on the season, won a regional, and made it to the semi finals at champs. I do wish we would have had a practice field/the time to practice.

09 and 11 had about the same amount of drive practice, but didnt quite have the same success.

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

Re-quoted for truth.

I think a better title for the thread might be "Correlation between driving skill and driving practice"

I mean, think about it: Don't you get better at something you do often? Why do you think a 45 year old car driver is so much more likely to not have accidents that, say, an 18 year old?

It has been said that it takes 5,000 hours of doing something to get really good at it (after which improvements are negligible). But the first hours bring a greater relative improvement than the last hours.

If you driver practices several hundred hours, they might not win a competition, but they will surely get the robot to perform to its highest capabilities. (Manipulator operators as well).

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

You don't need a 27 x 54 foot regulation field, but yes - having an adequately-sized practice space and the time to practice (with either your early-completed competition bot or with a practice bot) has a strong correlation with winning.

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

Exactly what I wanted to say.

The more you drive the faster you learn what does and doesn't work as well as where the weak points in your design are.

This is why we made 5 improvements between our 1st pass roller claw and the final championship version. We found the weak points in practice and iterated until we had it right.

If you can take care of this learning at practice rather than at the regional you are ahead of the game.

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

This past year, we had a decent amount of practice prior to our competition. I absolutely know this helped. Even though we didn't have a full field, we had a large area of carpet and we built a rack of pegs. Putting in a few hours of tube hanging definitely helped becasue we went in to our first competition already knowing the motions of hanging tubes. We don't build a practice robot (time contraints) but we have used prior years robots to drive before our new base is up and running.

In 2010, our drivers had almost no practice whatsoever, so everything was learned at competition. With the 2011 season being my first year on the Drive Team (as Coach), I would definitely say the pre-competition practice helped me, and our drivers. I would guess that it helped our Human Player, but our cafeteria had lower ceilings so I don't know what it was like to practice throwing.

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

Just to continue chiming in, I agree that driving practice definitely helps improve driving skill. For Logomotion, we decided that our traditional 6WD tank wouldn't have enough maneuverability for the game, and switched to mecanums; it took at least a few hours for our drivers to get a very good handle on the system. Scoring practice was also very important.

One of the most important - and useful - things about build season driver practice is that your drivers get to know the robot and the field. Mechanisms intended to do a certain thing may need to be operated in a certain manner to get them to work, especially with the field; god knows how long it took us to figure out how to hang tubes effectively, despite our arm and roller's efficiency.

We don't have a dedicated practice space, but we do have access to a couple of supply closets where we store carpets, and we tend to leave field pieces in the back of our lab, and bring them out during meetings.

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

We have space to build a full sized field, so our drivers were practicing every chance they got (which wasn't much) during the build season.

However, one of my requests for next season was that we build a practice robot, because I realized, the time from ship day to competition is a time you could be practicing with your robot. And even at Championships, I realized that the gap between your last regional and Championships was also time we could have spent practicing.

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

I second this.

Remember that correlation is not causation. Ice cream sales increase during summer, as do child abductions. It does not mean that more ice cream sales cause child abductions nor that child abductions cause more ice cream sales.


However, yes, its very likely your driver will be better.

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

I'd like to reiterate this point.

While your observation of correlation is, as an observation, not without merit, one must remember that correlation, as usual, does not imply causation.

There are a great deal of factors that contribute to driving skill, but, since your original post focuses purely on the practice factor, I'll address that only. The majority of this thread has focused on driving practice within a certain specific season with a robot. Before considering this, consider that a great way to gauge ability of drivers is competition before the new build season even begins. Put simply, it would be great to have a full practice field and practice robot for the 2012 game that drivers could practice with; however, the ability to deal with pressure of competition and general driver awareness, which are both factors that contribute a great deal to driver skill, can be developed BEFORE the new season's robot is even built.

For my team, drivers are almost always seniors who drive for one year. In that sense, each season the team brings in "rookie" drivers. That said, after the regular competition season ends and the senior drivers graduate, prospective drivers for the next season are selected to drive at offseason events, and, in that way, can be judged for general ability while simultaneously getting a number of matches under their belts. Even if the following season's robot is different in every way, the experience of driving at one, two, three, or even four off-season events can be invaluable in that it gives coaches/mentors an idea of what students are suited to driving under conditions that simply cannot be judged in a practice facility.

In reference to the original observation that practice field availability has some effect on driving skill, I'd like to refer back to Basel's comment, essentially that teams who have access to practice fields are often those who go looking for extra resources, are often teams with the manpower and proven efficiency to build a practice bot, and to utilize them effectively. So, while it is not necessary to have access to practice facilities to be skilled at driving, there is frequently a connection between the two.

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

I would also agree that having practice space/time has a huge impact on driver abilities and comfort. Even from experienced on my team, there are years when we had more/bigger practice spaces, and we tended to better in those years. There's really no replacement for practising driving your robot with other robots playing intense defence and loud music blasting in the background. At least in my experience, that is, doing that has coincided with our better performing seasons.

All I have to say to this:

(http://xkcd.com/925/)
And one more: http://xkcd.com/552/

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

Funny, isn't it, that no matter what the discussion, it is almost certain that XKCD can be quoted successfully and relevantly?

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

on our team, the programmers find most of the problems with the robot. mainly because we're the ones who are working with the robot when it breaks. but it's good because the more we find before the 6 weeks are up, the less we have to deal with in the competition.

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

How can you guys say that correlation doesn't imply causation with regards to practice time and driving skill? Of course practice time will increase driving skill.

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

While there is causation, it's not the correlation that proves it. It's the reasons that are so obvious, you don't need to list them. The OP wanted to show that great teams have practice fields; that doesn't mean much. I think he simply needs to explain those reasons and show how driving skill is ultimately an important factor in success.

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

I would argue there is no better way to be successful in FRC than to have access to a practice field and have a practice robot.

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

True Cory, however, there are some kids that a extremely talented when they are behind the sticks. I know it may be a real long shot at them being Einstein quality drivers but it is still a start.

If any teams have the resources and time to do both a practice bot and a comp bot, the results are far more than improved driver skill. Trade offs like improvised design and integration are great to do with your practice bot because they will help you determine the installation process before changing or adding a system to your competition bot.

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

Having practice time definitely improves teams' performance - it allows the drive team to become familiar with the robot and practice working together. You don't necessarily need a full-sized practice field - you could recreate the key elements and set those up to practice - but no one is going to tell you that good practice doesn't help. Practicing with other teams is a good idea too, because then you can recreate the feel of multiple robots playing at once.

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

You don't need a practice field to win a regional where other teams don't have a practice field. However, the opposite is also true.

As far as the correlation stuff goes.. a practice field doesn't cause success but dedicated mentors and students causes a practice field AND success.

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

Yes, practice makes perfect.

However, most successful teams aren't successful because they have a practice field.

Exactly my point. Teams that have practice fields are also, often times, teams that work harder.

Maybe they field in more sponsors, and some of those "extra" sponsors are what pay for the field, while others give them money/services that allow them to make more complex robots (ie a company that provides water jetting).

Maybe they have more students that they can allocate students whose job is to build the practice field, which means other students specialize in their particular job (such as manipulator, chassis, etc) and can work harder at said function.

Maybe there is a team that just has a practice field because some team parents decided they wanted to help out, and I'm completely wrong.

None the less, there a lot of other things that go into making a team perform well, that you can't assume having a practice field is what sets them apart.

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

1114 isn't 1114 because they have a practice field. However your average team will certainly notice an improvement in their performance if they have adequate room to practice, and it seems like that is what we're really after here. For example, in Week 1 of 2010, the average alliance scored about 2.25 points. That's less than 1 ball per robot! Herding those balls wasn't easy, but I'm pretty sure with practice and just a drivetrain you could get more than 1 a match.

No one is saying if you get a practice field you'll be the next 71. What they are saying is you've got a much better chance to play on Saturday afternoon if you've got more time behind the sticks than everyone else. I don't have any hard numbers here, but anyone whose every played any sport, or learned any task should be able to see that that makes a great deal of sense.

(It's great that a lot of the people in this thread have taken Stats, but it's important to make sure you don't let your knowledge of the theory interfere with practical use of it.)

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

The thoroughly fair argument is that practice will lead to improvement.

I like to explain it like videogames. If you only play 10 minutes, you'll just barely be moving around. After an hour, you're a lot better, but still getting the hang of it. After 10 hours, you're a lot better, but not great. After 100 hours, you're getting there, etc...

Most teams only get an hour of driving all season, sometimes less. Some teams get 100+ hours before their first match, who is going to get more out of their robot?

Re: Correlation between driving skill and practice field availability
 

If you have two robots, one very well designed and one just so-so...
The so-so gets a lot of practice while the well designed just sits waiting for ship. The so-so robot will win close to all of the matches. Practice makes perfect especially in clutch situations. Driving has to become almost second nature. You don't have to have a practice field, but you do have to get stick time. Whether it is in the cafeteria or the hallway or one team I heard practiced in the library, you have to get some time in driver's seat. For this reason, I recommend to teams that I inspect, who have never driven, to get as much time on the practice field as possible.