Re: I must admit
 

Posted by Andy Baker, Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 5/5/99 1:18 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: I must admit posted by P.J. Baker on 5/3/99 5:50 AM MST:




: That pretty much sums up my feelings on this issue. I am willing to 'agree to disagree' on interpretations of the rules, as long as we can both agree that the DESIGNS of the Bobcat, TKO, G-Force and others are well within the spirit of FIRST. I have enjoyed sparring with you over this issue, and hope that you'll be at the Rumble in July. If Andy doesn't beat me to it, I'll buy you a coke :-).

: Best Regards,

: P.J. Baker

Great post, long-lost cousin P.J.!

Same here, Tom. I'm glad that I brought up this issue. It is not suprising
that we are all so emotional about these issues, for obvious reasons.

It appears that I will be buying a few rounds of Cokes.

Thanks alot, Gargus!!!

Respect to you all,
Andy Baker

I get it now...
 

Posted by Tom Wible, Coach on team #131, chaos, from central high school manchester and osram-sylvania.

Posted on 4/30/99 6:06 PM MST


In Reply to: I disagree - Robots with arms unite! posted by P.J. Baker on 4/30/99 8:30 AM MST:



I get it now, thanks for clearing it up for me. You used your 'multifunction arm' to pull a robot off the puck. Tipping it 'in the process', but tipping was NOT IN THE STRATEGY.
Thanks, for helping me understand.

Tom (sarcasitc) Wible

Re: I get it now...
 

Posted by Jacob Etter, Student on team #177, Bobcat Robotics, from South Windsor High School and International Fuel Cells and ONSI Corp.

Posted on 4/30/99 9:52 PM MST


In Reply to: I get it now... posted by Tom Wible on 4/30/99 6:06 PM MST:



For your information our strategy was to get them off the puck had they remained on the puck we would have lost, perhaps tipping them over helped but it wasn't needed. what was needed was space on the puck with was taken up by the other team

Re: I get it now...
 

Posted by P.J. Baker, Engineer on team #177, Bobcat Robotics, from South Windsor High School and International Fuel Cells.

Posted on 5/1/99 6:51 AM MST


In Reply to: I get it now... posted by Tom Wible on 4/30/99 6:06 PM MST:



Not that I feel it would have been wrong, but I just got my picks back and it turns out that we did not tip that robot when we pulled it off of the puck.

unite?? how 'bout wrestle...
 

Posted by Daniel, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 5/1/99 1:00 AM MST


In Reply to: I disagree - Robots with arms unite! posted by P.J. Baker on 4/30/99 8:30 AM MST:



Now that all has been spoken on the elegance of the general arm design, why don't we roll up our sleeves for a little mano-a-mano, eh?

We've got two van door motors, 2 aluminum box beams, and over a hundred rivets on that puppy. I dare ANYONE to mess with TOD. C'mon ;-)


-Daniel and G-Force

Re: unite?? how 'bout wrestle...
 

Posted by Jacob Etter, Student on team #177, Bobcat Robotics, from South Windsor High School and International Fuel Cells and ONSI Corp.

Posted on 5/3/99 4:35 PM MST


In Reply to: unite?? how 'bout wrestle... posted by Daniel on 5/1/99 1:00 AM MST:



are you going to rumble? if so how bout a grudge match, arm vs arm

Re: unite?? how 'bout wrestle...
 

Posted by Daniel, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 5/3/99 6:59 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: unite?? how 'bout wrestle... posted by Jacob Etter on 5/3/99 4:35 PM MST:



I wish. Maybe next year...unless there are still spots but I doubt it. I still haven't gotten a response from Mr. B about that.

Too bad, cuz I've always wanted to do that =)


Maybe next year?
-Daniel

This is what FIRST is about
 

Posted by Mike Kulibaba, Student on team #88, TJ², from Bridgewater-Raynham Regional and Johnson and Johnson.

Posted on 5/4/99 12:27 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: unite?? how 'bout wrestle... posted by Daniel on 5/3/99 6:59 PM MST:



I love to see this kind of stuff when i come to this web page. When it comes down to it this whole program is about who has a better robot. It's about who can score more or who can push the puck better or who can play the best defense. This is why I do this program it is for the competition and knowing that your robot is one of the best in the nation. I wish both your teams were going to Rumble cause I saw both of them in action and I would love to see this battle take place.

Kuli Team 88 TJ²

Re: This is what FIRST is about
 

Posted by Jacob Etter, Student on team #177, Bobcat Robotics, from South Windsor High School and International Fuel Cells and ONSI Corp.

Posted on 5/7/99 11:38 PM MST


In Reply to: This is what FIRST is about posted by Mike Kulibaba on 5/4/99 12:27 PM MST:



my team, 177, ifc & south windsor is going to rumble

Re: This is what FIRST is about
 

Posted by Jeff Bazydlo, Other on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro Inc..

Posted on 5/15/99 8:24 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: This is what FIRST is about posted by Jacob Etter on 5/7/99 11:38 PM MST:



: my team, 126, Nypro & Clinton High School is going to rumble

Rumble
 

Posted by Daniel, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 5/4/99 6:23 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: unite?? how 'bout wrestle... posted by Jacob Etter on 5/3/99 4:35 PM MST:



After an email to Mike B, my team is now #5 on the waiting list.

We may get a chance to brawl after all =)


-Daniel

You did that to us too!
 

Posted by Tim Murray, Student on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and NYPRO inc..

Posted on 5/3/99 4:09 PM MST


In Reply to: I disagree - Robots with arms unite! posted by P.J. Baker on 4/30/99 8:30 AM MST:



Team 177,

You tried something like that on us also in the NE regional in one of
the matches. You were done and the only way you could win was to try
and push our basket up and remove our floppies. The 120$ material on
our basket won that battle though and we went on to win after you tipped
over. also, when you tipped over, in under 5 seconds you were back up.
The last minute and a half of that match you guys had me practically
hyperventilating. You had a very unique robot this year.

Can't wait for next year

Tim

Re: You did that to us too!
 

Posted by P.J. Baker, Engineer on team #177, Bobcat Robotics, from South Windsor High School and International Fuel Cells.

Posted on 5/3/99 6:29 PM MST


In Reply to: You did that to us too! posted by Tim Murray on 5/3/99 4:09 PM MST:



Yes, we did try to empty your basket with our arm in the QF match. I hope you noticed that we tried to empty it from underneath and did not try to destroy your lift (which might have been more effective, but definitely not in the spirit of FIRST). Yuo guys did a great job this year. We'll see you at the rumble.

p.s. - thanks for noticing how quickly we were able to get up after we tipped. It is a great feature of our arm, but no one gets to see it that often.

In our defense
 

Posted by Jeff Burch, Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Delco Electronics Systems.

Posted on 4/30/99 7:32 PM MST


In Reply to: Not mean but in violation posted by Tom Wible on 4/30/99 7:36 AM MST:



: If you read the rules they say that strategies aimed at intentional tipping of robots are NOT IN THE SPIRIT OF FIRST.
: You guys clearly used tipping as a strategy and clearly designed your robot to do that. I would contend that the refs made a big mistake allowing this type of strategy to be used.
: I hope FIRST is listening.

: Tom Wible

As team leader for the TechnoKats (team #45) I cannot stand by silently while others malign my team. Let me start by apologizing to any team that thinks we played the game unfairly. FIRST set down specific rules for the game and we followed them. We were never disqualified or even given a warning for malicious behavior. We always tried to be the first to shake hands, offer good luck, and then say 'good match' when it was over, win or lose. If a robot was damaged in a round we were in, we were the first to offer help, tools, or supplies. I will stand behind my team's robot design, our strategy, and our integrity until the day I die.

I want to make two things absolutely clear:

One, we did NOT use tipping as a strategy. We NEVER went into a match saying that the way to win was to tip over our opponent. Our strategy was to get on the puck and keep our opponents off. We tried to put our arm on any opponent's robot that tried to climb the puck in the best spot we could find to fend them off. We never went after another team with the intent to tip them over.

And two, we did NOT design any component on our robot for tipping other robots over. If you'll look at our arm with an open mind you'll see that the design is optimized for pushing other robots away, not tipping them over. We didn't put a gripper or hook at the end to grab other robots with, nor did we put on a wedge or a spoon to slide under a robot. At the end of the arm is a blunt surface with a rubber pad designed to make solid contact without causing damage.

Furthermore, the motors, gears and controls were designed to deliver a slow, powerful push, not a fast punch. We even applied different scaling to the PWM outputs for the shoulder and elbow joints so the arm would push out horizontally, not upward, which would be the desired motion if we'd wanted to tip robots over.

In only three of our more than 40 matches in two regionals and the Nationals did contact with our robot result in another team's robot tipping over. In two of these, the opponent's robot was on the puck and we were just trying to push them off. I saw robots that didn't even have arms tip other robots over in an attempt to push them off the puck.

If you watched the 'Benji Robot' demonstrations you'd know that this is legal, that intense interaction is expected around the puck and that this may sometimes lead to one or both of the robots being tipped over. It would be different if a team were to drive their robot up behind you while you were gathering floppies from your human player, slide a wedge under your base and tip you out of bounds. This is obviously not in the spirit of FIRST and should always result in disqualification. This is also something I would never allow on my team.

There is a difference between a component capable of tipping another robot over, and one that is specifically designed and used for that purpose. Any arm would be capable of tipping another robot over, especially one that is lifting floppies 8 feet in the air. The fact that so few such tippings took place is a testament to the gracious professionalism of all those involved in FIRST. If FIRST were to disallow any component capable of tipping other robots, or disqualify any team whose interaction with another robot resulted in that other robot tipping over, we'd end up with very constrained design parameters, a very boring game, and, worst of all, very uninspired students.

If anyone wishes to discuss this with me in more detail, don't hesitate to email or call.

Jeff Burch - TechnoKats Team Leader
Delphi / Kokomo High School, Team #45
Jhburch@mail.delcoelect.com
765-451-9870

Re: In our defense
 

Posted by Eric gargus, Student on team #217, Team Macomb, from Armada High School and Ford and Fraser.

Posted on 4/30/99 8:02 PM MST


In Reply to: In our defense posted by Jeff Burch on 4/30/99 7:32 PM MST:



I know exactly how Tom and some others feel about the TechnoKats.

As I have admitted, I too was once not a fan of the Kats for the same reasons as others have presented.

But if you just talk to the Kats you find out that they were often more concerned about the condition of the Bots in the opposing alliance then they are there own. They aren't out to tip anyones bot, but if it happens while defending the puck it happens. There strategy is as much in the spirit of FIRST as any other Teams.

I for one liked the TechnoKats after I got to know them. They are a fun team to hang around and are really great folks. And I'll continue to defend them until the issue is settled.

To Jeff, Andy and the rest of the TechnoKats, you've made a beleiver out of at least one person, others will follow in time. Keep up the good work guys!

Eric Gargus

P.S. Remember Andy Baker you owe me a coke :-)

: : If you read the rules they say that strategies aimed at intentional tipping of robots are NOT IN THE SPIRIT OF FIRST.
: : You guys clearly used tipping as a strategy and clearly designed your robot to do that. I would contend that the refs made a big mistake allowing this type of strategy to be used.
: : I hope FIRST is listening.

: : Tom Wible

: As team leader for the TechnoKats (team #45) I cannot stand by silently while others malign my team. Let me start by apologizing to any team that thinks we played the game unfairly. FIRST set down specific rules for the game and we followed them. We were never disqualified or even given a warning for malicious behavior. We always tried to be the first to shake hands, offer good luck, and then say 'good match' when it was over, win or lose. If a robot was damaged in a round we were in, we were the first to offer help, tools, or supplies. I will stand behind my team's robot design, our strategy, and our integrity until the day I die.

: I want to make two things absolutely clear:

: One, we did NOT use tipping as a strategy. We NEVER went into a match saying that the way to win was to tip over our opponent. Our strategy was to get on the puck and keep our opponents off. We tried to put our arm on any opponent's robot that tried to climb the puck in the best spot we could find to fend them off. We never went after another team with the intent to tip them over.

: And two, we did NOT design any component on our robot for tipping other robots over. If you'll look at our arm with an open mind you'll see that the design is optimized for pushing other robots away, not tipping them over. We didn't put a gripper or hook at the end to grab other robots with, nor did we put on a wedge or a spoon to slide under a robot. At the end of the arm is a blunt surface with a rubber pad designed to make solid contact without causing damage.

: Furthermore, the motors, gears and controls were designed to deliver a slow, powerful push, not a fast punch. We even applied different scaling to the PWM outputs for the shoulder and elbow joints so the arm would push out horizontally, not upward, which would be the desired motion if we'd wanted to tip robots over.

: In only three of our more than 40 matches in two regionals and the Nationals did contact with our robot result in another team's robot tipping over. In two of these, the opponent's robot was on the puck and we were just trying to push them off. I saw robots that didn't even have arms tip other robots over in an attempt to push them off the puck.

: If you watched the 'Benji Robot' demonstrations you'd know that this is legal, that intense interaction is expected around the puck and that this may sometimes lead to one or both of the robots being tipped over. It would be different if a team were to drive their robot up behind you while you were gathering floppies from your human player, slide a wedge under your base and tip you out of bounds. This is obviously not in the spirit of FIRST and should always result in disqualification. This is also something I would never allow on my team.

: There is a difference between a component capable of tipping another robot over, and one that is specifically designed and used for that purpose. Any arm would be capable of tipping another robot over, especially one that is lifting floppies 8 feet in the air. The fact that so few such tippings took place is a testament to the gracious professionalism of all those involved in FIRST. If FIRST were to disallow any component capable of tipping other robots, or disqualify any team whose interaction with another robot resulted in that other robot tipping over, we'd end up with very constrained design parameters, a very boring game, and, worst of all, very uninspired students.

: If anyone wishes to discuss this with me in more detail, don't hesitate to email or call.

: Jeff Burch - TechnoKats Team Leader
: Delphi / Kokomo High School, Team #45
: Jhburch@mail.delcoelect.com
: 765-451-9870