[BB] Something to end your week
 

http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2011...your-week.html


Something new in the kit...

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I predict a big game of Robot Dance Dance Revolution

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I am thinking human player. If you look at the forums on the other people who have developed code for the kinect to work in labview, the one issue is a way to connect it to the crio. the driver station already has the usb ports. In addition the object id code(the hardest technical part) is already written to detect human movements

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All I have to say is, that's a pretty big curtain if there is a mountain hiding behind it.

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This blog did peak[sic] my interest . . .

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I'm no XBOX expert, but I think there is way too much going on in the background to have the Kinect pointed at a human player... unless there is a isolation booth! Is the 2012 season sponsored by Real Steal?

I was thinking that difficult terrain would be an interesting feature in a game. Perhaps the Kinect could be used to read the landscape as the robot is driven, and adjust automatically.

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They said it was going to be used on the operator side. If so, I hope it's more in 08 style, and not a replacement for the option/ability to drive with joysticks (that would be an AWFUL decision).

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2008-like hybrid mode would get interesting with 6 HP's/Robocoaches waving their arms around at the same time.

I just hope that there's enough testing and documentation on this thing to make it relatively easy to use at some sort of level...

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Think this is what Dean had in mind? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUf-YPJC2F8

Reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKx5_3HUAho

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Thank you Tristan Lall for the original link, but a little on how the kinect works:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4057/m...dtech-review/2

The laser is actually really help full in creating a sense of depth. Their are two video streams a RGB and a depth version. They designed it so you can cut out your buddy walking behind the couch. For us, it would be able to limit the depth it is interested to what is right in front(it also raises the bar from the axis to 60 fps so it is less jumpy)

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Probably the funniest Robotis Related Videos I've seen. Great Job Tweedles!

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I'm thinking its going to be semi-autonomous like 08 or possibly be used as a human player interface?

No matter what, it'll be interesting to see how teams use it.

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Well as one of the hardware beta test teams, Im about to found out. FIRST shipped one to my house today..

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I talked with Bryan (BJC) and Nick (dsm33) directly, and Jim Zondag via email about this today. As we are a beta test team, we only have to wait until Monday to see our Kinect.

We talked about possibilities of the Kinect on the robot and DS end.

We all agree that using the Kinect on a driver station is a very very bad idea, as joysticks are much more direct in use, and the driver can command specific operations easily.

Some of us think that it could be useful on the robot end, however:
-It is not a light sensor (weight-wise). It has two cameras, an IR laser, four microphones, and a motorized base (yikes!)
-It cannot interface directly to the cRio, requiring at least a single-board computer to interface to. For weight reasons, we obviously want a processor that dosen't need a large heat sink, and the lowest-power processors aren't likely to run windows 7. Luckily, there are linux drivers for the Kinect, and its embedded nature means we can run without a local interface (no GUI or graphics processor requirement).
-This brings our total requirements to:
*cRio (in kit)
*Kinect (in kit)
*Single-board computer with embedded linux programming skills (???) - OR - larger single board computer capable of windows 7 which requires much more power and cooling and .NET programming skills (???)
*A challenge which can't be solved any other way to make this all reasonable (this really scares me)


I think its much more reasonable to assume that the Kinect is provided because Microsoft is trying to promote it, and probably donated it, and that the use for it will be negligible. Plus, how do they expect it to work on the field with multiple robots and Kinects (as the Kinect would likely be confused by other IR patterns from other Kinects, especially 6 operating at once).

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Do you know who shipped it? Was it FedEx?

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I'm thinking the Kinect will be used in conjunction with the human players, very much like '08 was with the IR remotes used to guide the robots in autonomous. I can't see it going on the robots and serving as anything more than simply a regular camera. Look at what the Kinect was made for... it was made to interact with people, bodies. It only makes sense if it's a human player input. Obviously the drivers won't be controlling the robots by dancing out the Y-M-C-A (although that would be priceless to watch! :eek: ). I would also venture the guess that it's not going to be used on the robots, as that brings into question issues of power, weight, and interaction with the cRio, as well as the complications of having multiple cameras with multiple sets of IR lasers on the field. If I had to make a prediction, I'd say it'll be used during autonomous.

That being said, I think the Tweedles were on to something...

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There will be some code made available at some point to help teams get started. I don't know what the schedule on that is. I expect that the beta teams will do try some interesting things as well. We'll all just have to wait and see how it all fits into the game (if at all) of course. From my point of view I'm just excited that smart innovative FIRST students will have a chance to get creative with Kinect.
BTW I have some links on my blog with Kinect information as well as links to FIRST's press release about this donation. See http://blogs.msdn.com/b/alfredth/arc...the-robot.aspx if interested.

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Here's a press release from FIRST on the subject, just posted on their facebook:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/fir...012-2011-10-07

Quotes specifically mentioning how it will be used:

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Sounds like a cool Hybrid mode again.

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The Microsoft blog post also hinted at the possible usage...

(emphasis mine)


So we may see a 2008-like hybrid mode period again...

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I read this, but I feel like it can be used for so much more -- to easily see how many meters something is away from the robot for autonomous or as a sensor for when to deploy things shouldn't be a problem.



ahhhh, interesting

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A document has been released to the beta teams dealing the software that FRC has already written.

At this point, the Kinect plugs in to the driver station, and the code allows you to control a tank style drive train. It is very specific in that only ONE PERSON must be view of the Kinect at a time.

Of course, this is all BETA info, so take it with a grain of salt until we see the new game.

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Since use of Kinect wouldn't really be strictly autonomous, is it possible this could be used to control a minibot for endgame purposes? I can just see [i]FIRST[i] requiring us to use the Samantha module to actually control an FTC type minibot to negotiate a maze or obstacle course this time around now that we got our feet wet instead of using another drastically stripped down version like last year;) Food for thought?

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I see a large increase in dancing drive teams because of this.
Do the YMCA or the chicken dance in order to drive it.

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Didn't D. Lavery or someone hint at this during last season by talking about teleoperated robots replacing/augmenting humans in outer space? Of course any connections to past public speaking could just be an expected coincidence (talking about human-machine interfaces at a robotics event is hardly a surprise).

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Again, this is still in beta, but there is a special SDK with API's for the three main languages (No idea on Python, Matlab, or Simulink). The SDK, as of right now, only runs on Windows 7 (No idea if that will change). Gestures are pre-programmed, but you can change them with Visual Studio Express.

Even if it doesn't turn out to work that well in competition, it'll be great for demonstrations (Deploying a minibot at the flick of the wrist, great way to engage the audience).

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I just hope they don't *require* the use of the kinect over traditional methods of direct control.

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In case anyone wants to get their feet wet before kickoff, keep an eye on http://www.usfirst.org/frc/kinect. They already have instructions on how to start toying around with kinect, and I'm sure there will be a lot more information there as kickoff approaches.

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As a response to those speculating about putting the Kinect on your robot:

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/kinect

So, it seems FIRST is focusing on using this for controlling the robot (I also hope it's not the only, required means of driving the robot), but we're also free to have some fun with in on the robots.

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Yeah, at DC Regional(I believe it was DC), he showed a video showing, if I remember correctly, a NASA program that was done via Kinect that allowed kids to virtually "walk" through the International Space Station. Then he said something like, "How cool would it be for you to use that in FIRST? Maybe you should send emails to our kit of parts people"


Also, hopefully the maximum required capacity of using Kinect is as 'hybrid' mode, and hopefully they make it simple enough to program.

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I think the most interesting thing here is not what we can do with the kinect, but we we can't. It seems clear that only one person on the alliance can use it, and that person will most likely be the human player, or robocoach a la 2008. This means that there will be two other human players doing something else. Now we just need to figure out what!

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To put to rest any myths you guys are circulating, I have data obtained from the beta test information and scrolling through the 2012 LV code.

-The Kinect has a "server" application (written in C#) which communicates with the driver station and Kinect. I haven't looked at the server yet. I do know that the default Dashboard does apparently optionally show Kinect analysis data instead of the camera image.
-The Kinect feeds "virtual joysticks (a few analog axis relating to skeletal angles of arms and buttons relating to hand/head motions) to the robot, which in LV show up as a 5th joystick (Kinect1 and Kinect2, although Start Communication only shows Kinect1 as being populated with data). The actual gesture analysis can be done on the robot end using this data. The user can also request the raw skeletal data (20 points of x-y-z).
-The beta test information instructs us to drive the robot using this joystick. I can only see this going VERY BADLY and hope teams do not attempt to do this in competition. There are a bunch of warnings about safety and learning to use this interface.
-There is no information yet to suggest this is required. There are still 4 USB joystick inputs in addition to the Kinect data.

-We are now using LV 2011. I hope I haven't said too much.

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Nope, you haven't. We can talk all about what's going in beta - in fact that's what we're all supposed to do. You can even take screenshots of working code, demoing, etc. Just don't post the documentation, and always add that little "this is only beta, your mileage may vary" addendum. Good to see you guys got accepted!

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Thanks for posting the beta information, now to find out how many of my students have a kinect so my software guys can start playing with it.

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For some reason I'm reminded of an Aim High match we were in where the robots all took off before the match started and drove uncontrollably across the field into walls. This is going to be fun. :)

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If that's the case, I suggest making spare parts of... well, pretty much everything!

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Andrew Schreiber likes this.

Seriously, this is how things should be.

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This is all terrific, but if you don't mind me asking: What's wrong with posting the documentation? I'm sure there's a reason I'm missing.

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FedEx delivered it this morning.

Everyone one our our beta test team is both excited for such new software and nervous as to how difficult it might be to implement it. Time will tell. Based on previous FIRST experience using the Kinect probably wont be mandatory (like the Cypress Board from Beta Testing in 2009) but will greatly help. So possibly something with the endgame? Im also going to take a gander that the Kinect will be part of the field, where teams wouldnt be responsible for bringing their own and then setting it up and connecting it to the FMS everytime, as that could prove buggy. Ive done field reset many times and any way they do it seems like it will present a challenge to the field crew.

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Double zip-tie everything so at least nothing falls out causing a penalty. :eek:

I am excited to see what will happen with the Kinect. I will be looking into available information before kickoff but unsure if I and our team can invest the time during the season into making something of our own considering our current programming plans. Does sound like a very fun tool to have work though.

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It's a really simple reason, too:

You post the documentation, and it happens to have a bug/error/similar nuisance. Maybe it's caught and corrected, maybe not.

4 months later (you know, middle/end of build), some other team finds that documentation that you posted, with the bug, and follows the directions exactly--despite the fact that a) it's beta documentation and b) the bug has been fixed and the fix posted (elsewhere).

Could it happen? Yes. Is it likely to happen? Well, if the documentation isn't published, it sure isn't likely!

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Am I under the impression that every team is getting a FRC II cRIO in their kit this year?

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You are, and the video does imply that, but I believe that's not the case; however looking at dates Bill posted a few weeks ago, they should be available for order by now.

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The question of the cRIO II was cleared up someplace official, sorry I don't have a link. It will only be in the rookie kits. Veterans have the opportunity to pick up a low cost version before some deadline.

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My memory is horrible. Aside from being lighter, what are the advantages of the cRIO 2?

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It's cheaper and lighter. What more could you ask for?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=96268 could be of help.

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Lighter, smaller over-all foot print, ability to operate from 9V to 30V vs the old cRio's 19V - 30V, lack of dip switches, double the memory and a few other nifty features.

He's a white paper that outlines the differences: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...threadid=97702

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Thanks!

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http://blogs.msdn.com/b/alfredth/arc...the-robot.aspx

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but my team currently programs in Java, so does this mean that we have to learn a new language to be able to use the Kinect?

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The Kinect data is accessible from Java and all other languages.

Similar to the dashboard, there is a process running on the DS laptop which is written in C#. For extreme customization, that portion is open for teams to experiment with.

Greg McKaskle

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I accidentally destroyed the cRIO FRC II thread reference by Dustin and Palardy earlier.

I restored it from cache here:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...threadid=97702

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Faster connection times?

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And how would robots respond to such expert "input"? Perhaps it would look something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOWYVT5xABA

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For people who don't know, the Kinect is not only used for playing Xbox 360 games with gestures.
A large group of hobbyists, developers, university students, and organizations have "hacked"* into the Kinect and utilized its capabilities as a cheap 3D depth sensor. Microsoft has recognized the potential of this movement and released an official Software Development Kit (SDK) so that people can more easily interact with the Kinect's data.

Here are some examples of what people have done, which might spark some ideas for FRC robots! :)

http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/r...c-kinect-hacks

http://spectrum.ieee.org/tag/kinect+hacks

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Did anyone else notice the cRIO 2 only has one ethernet port?

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Yup.

It really only needs one port though, as a large majority of teams only use one port and the open port usually becomes a good place for unwanted things to hide.

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Yeah, the one port on the cRIO II can go to the radio, and the camera can go to the radio too. Many teams just get the camera image just for the driver station; the ones who want to use it on the cRIO can get it through the network. :]

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Remember that you also need to post any beta information on the FIRST forums that you discuss here.

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The jump from Java to C#, if you decide to make it to take advantage of more code samples, is not a large one. In fact most people I have talked to find it easier to go from Java to C# than the other way. There are C# for Java programmers materials available as well. One of my favorites is http://www.robmiles.com/c-yellow-boo...ook%202009.pdf I know teachers who use both Java and C# in the same courses. Switching to C# after the AP exam in order to create XBOX games using XNA is pretty common as well.

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To add to the C#/Java, they appear to me to be VERY similar syntaxically, with the differences primarily in the library code.

(I've never been a fan of either language, but that's probably because my embedded programming background is used to working without classes and dynamic memory allocation, and I believe that for highly iterative, deterministic systems such as FRC robots, classes and event-driven systems are probably unnecessary and not always helpful).

I'm a fan of the Kinect as a useful cheap robot sensor. However, its current implementation is not as a useful robot sensor, but as an unuseful driver station sensor. If it were to be on the robot end, it would be infinitely more useful than it is right now. I see many teams attempting to drive their robots with the Kinect, which to me is dangerous for everyone involved.

I'll add these words of advice to everyone
DO NOT TRY TO DRIVE YOUR ROBOT WITH A KINECT. ITS A BAD IDEA. DON'T DO IT.

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Now imagine that on a FRC field.

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Yep, I can see that happening.

This delta gripper robot would be a great idea for Kinect, except that this is only about how good it would get in FRC:

http://vimeo.com/20594424

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Direct control is not a good idea, but imagine it like hybrid in 2008. Use it to send signals to the robot.

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My friends were thinking about how cool it would be if we could control our robot's arm with an actual arm.

Seems like it could actually happen, even though it might be a pretty bad idea...

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This is what it's starting to sound like to me.

My next question as someone whose Kinect experience is limited to the bowling demo at Best Buy: How many distinct commands (in the sense of Hybrid Mode of 2008) could a team realistically send to a robot?

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(Assuming everything works as it is supposed to...)

Team 341 will be demonstrating our 2011 robot controlled via Kinect during the lunch break at Ramp Riot on November 12. Expect to see something that looks a little like an air traffic controller trying to land a tube onto the scoring rack...

We will record as well as webcast the results.

More details to come.

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The question isn't just what commands are available, but what commands can we make ourselves, if a hybrid-like mode is to be this year?

Also, will it be required, or optional?

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I have no idea about rules in 2012, but I do know that there is a selection of gestures already "built-in", as well as the ability to use the Kinect SDK to define your own gestures. See the FAQ here: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/kinect

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I much prefer the direct method of such control

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Getting it as a whole joystick sounds like a lot of data. Some gestures are pre-programed somehow too. From the above it sounds like you could do some simple gestures like, if the y - coordinate of the hand is higher than the y coordinate of the head, the person must be raising their hand, so do something (simple boolean out subtraction operation). But maybe Jump is pre programmed somehow, because that would be a little harder.

I'm wondering if they will limit the output of the Kinect somehow during Hybrid/autonomous, just like the IR sensor in 2008 was limited.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu6JcAjJ60Y
Bad video, but you can still see the human and the arm on the robot moving in sync. It's pretty much the same thing that Aren posted a picture of, but his picture looks prettier...

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Has anyone seen this youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlKcgtABcqk)? It's of a control solution in which one hand is using a Xbox controller and controlling movement and the other is moving around and controlling rotation. seems to work well, especially as he becomes more used to it as the video goes on and his motions seem to be more natural.

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Yep, that is really innovative. One of the smartest gaming things I've seen for the Kinect, IMO.

I'm wondering how well it would work in FRC, though. With a video game, the computer gives very quick and direct feedback that is easy to see and work with, especially with a first person view. Not exactly the case in FRC when the robots are big and clunky, and you're looking at it from a fixed angle that takes getting used to. FRC is also extremely tense and fast, and you have to think about strategy too. Making big-ish arm movements might make thinking harder.

However, like you said, it might be very natural, depending on what you're controlling.

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The 1 person hybrid looks do-able. just would probable make it easier if you had a controller meant for 1 hand like the Nitendo Wii controllers (even if you dont use its built in motion detection)

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Did anybody notice that he spelled "peek" wrong? He spelled it as "peak," meaning the top of something instead of "peek" like to look at something.

(I didn't actually look up the definitions, hence the non fancy wording)

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Hmm, good thought on the spelling. Bill would do something like that, and Dave Lavery even more so. But the Youtube video that link goes to is called "Sneak Peek," spelled normally. Maybe it was just a mistake. But in the FIRST hint season, you never know if don't know that you don't know that your suspicion could maybe be correct.

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Yeah, I've learned not to assume anything. I just thought it was interesting.

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Oh no, I think it's interesting too. Something to remember.