[BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

I apologize if there's already a thread for this.

I wonder if we'll see Tetrix kits in FIRST Choice again...

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

I think mini-bots are here to stay... maybe.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

I hope not. Minibots were cool, but I'd rather stay away from them for a while.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Agreed.... I really don't want to deal with Minibots again...

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Any "simple task" that takes 20 iterations to get right because the bar gets raised so high is something I don't want to see again.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Also, any "simple task" that requires nearly as much attention as the primary game objective probably isn't a simple task...

Not to mention the spending war that seemed to erupt once teams knew sub 2 second minibots were possible...

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

And don't even get me started in the minibot scoring....

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

I lost count of how many tetrix motors and batteries we bought and burned up trying to get it right. We showed up with a sub 2 second minibot week 2 and everyone who didn't have one copied the 3 of us who did.

Getting sub 2 seconds for regionals was important to master, but for championship you had to be below 1.5 for divisions and below 1.1 for Einstein, because thats how things elevate.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

I am not looking forward to giving Tetrix another cent of my money ever again.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Minibots were a fun and interesting idea but from kickoff on the rules were a complete disaster. If they come back I hope FIRST had learned their lesson.

Back to the OP: Congrats to AndyMark for being the FIRST Choice distributor again!

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Glad to see FIRST Choice coming back, hope it continues to give us the option of rounding out kit so we don't just add more stuff to the bin of things we will likely never use that used to come in the KOP.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

I just hope they learn from last year and stock up on items that "sold out" immediately... It sucks not getting what you want just because you logged in an hour late!

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Every year on our team, we have a discussion about how past competitions and designs are behind us, the slate is now clean. There's no need to bring up ills and failures from the past. Learn lessons, move on.

The minibot horse is dead. Stop trying to beat it. Glue is too cheap.

There were lots of things available through FIRSTChoice that were not made from Tetrix. I for one am happy to get the opportunity to add to our inventory in a manner of our choosing. Last year was a learning opportunity on many levels - I'm looking forward to seeing the improvements in the FC program implemented. I'm also glad for the job security for Brant.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

And they weren't easy to ref, either!

I am hopeful that any future developments will be positive.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Am I mistaken, or were Batteries available via FIRST Choice last year?

If they're available again this year, at least we'll know what batteries are legal a month or so ahead of the season...

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

You remember correctly, (2) batteries were one of the possible selections last year.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

I thought we knew that from simple physics on day one.

Anyhow, back to the thread. It's nice to see FIRST Choice back.

EDIT: Maybe not day one. I think we didn't have motor specs until later. It's all becoming a blur now.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Agreed, depending on which spec was accurate, and how much friction existed, our calcs put a minibot at about .7-.8s on the pole. Our minibot was champs was about 1 second dead on including deployment, so the theoretical number was pretty close to actual.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Yes, but they were offered with a caution: They were 2 years old and hadn't been maintained. Lead-Acid batteries don't like that much, and so they were likely in mediocre condition. OK for testing or cart lighting, but not for competition.
I would imagine/speculate that the batteries will be the same as always for 2012.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Don, I didn't remember the two year old part... Haha.

I'm just looking to avoid a 2007 (I think that was the year) when the batteries changed from one model to another leaving teams like 816 with two competition batteries and a half dozen batteries that were only good for practice and charging our pneumatics.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

AndyMark has the public page up for viewing.

http://www.andymark.com/FIRST-Choice-Public-s/411.htm

Can someone confirm if those Rockwell parts were on the list from the first game hint? There's lots of interesting stuff, the question is how much of it will we be able to get, and how the credit system will work.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

The chassis lift kit is interesting. could mean some sort of uneven terrain... Was it available last year?

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

What's with all the "parts details to be released later"? Is there something on that list that'll ruin it for us? And by ruin it, I mean that in a good way. :D

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

I don't believe the chassis lift kits were available last year...

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

It appears to be the same as the brackets used in 2010, down to the description: "4 Wheel Brackets from the 2010 C-Base System."

My hunch is on objects that are game-specific enough that FIRST didn't want them shared. By withholding their listing entirely, a team could see the listings and say "Oh, nothing we need, rolling on..."--with those listings, enough mystery is there to make folks come back after Kickoff and claim their stuff.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Wasn't there some problem with those that year? I wasn't there myself, but I remember my team members telling me that they would warp or something like that...

Anyways, if its the same thing from 2010, does this mean next years chassis will be the same as 2010's? (which I believe was the same as last years).

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

None of my teams past or present used them in 2010, but there were some reports of the brackets inducing enough flex to throw chains. I'm not familiar enough with them to call a root cause. Still, their presence is interesting to me...

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

There's a decent chance the kitbot chassis will be the same as last years. I don't think it's changed majorly for while now, though I may be wrong.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

These brackets mean one or many of many things:
(A) AndyMark had a ton to get rid of and thought teams might like these.
(B) The GDC is planning increasing the bumper height again.
(C) The field will have some sort of terrain like 2010.
(D) Really anything else.

The extrusion profiles are very interesting as well. Kind of a spin off 8020, but they'd be much more appealing if their profiles weren't entirely metric.

- Sunny G.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

I think A is the correct option. You don't have to use them on the drivetrain, you know. They could be used as pivot points elsewhere on the robot.

I would be highly surprised if AM knew anything about the game more than what FIRST chooses to tell them so that items can be stocked for FIRST Choice (or otherwise be set up, like in 2009 with the wheels). And I'd be willing to bet that FIRST doesn't tell them very much that they don't think AM absolutely needs to know.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

http://www.andymark.com/product-p/fc12-57.htm

looks like either line tracking is back or AM has to dump a bunch of 2011 era line sensors.

no tetrix, unless that is one of the "details to be released later" items...

considering the amount of "mystery boxes", my guess is it is for game pieces or field materials, possibly game specific parts (like rover wheels in 2009). Therefore, I may be wrong, but I am led to believe there are no minibots, and if there are, they are not lego nor are they tetrix.

as for the possibility of raising bumper height, I hope they are smart enough not to do that. unless they want to create a quasi de-facto requirement of rollover durability, high bumpers could lead to frequent robot tipping.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Sounds fun! (Our 2010 robot was self-righting with outriggers, but if it fell over quickly it would quite literally bounce back to its drive position, Weeble-style! :D )

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Last year, the FTC Mini Kit was just one item. As long as there are TBDs on that page, there's a chance.

How many 2010 robots (with the highest bumpers in the six years we've had bumpers) rolled because of their bumpers? All comes down to the rest of the game, too.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Having been bitten by that bug in 2009, I can speak of the issues.
What we found was that the pods themselves were structuraly stable; the issue was caused by the frame itself flexing and warping, especially when quickly changing direction. Our solution was to attach a steel bar, going from the bottom of the back pods to the sides of our chassis (two bars - one on each side of the robot). This kept everything at nice 90* angles and we did not throw any more chains after that improvement.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

I gotta feelin' the GDC will release a ball game this year. By increasing the bumper height, they effectively keep full bumpers mandatory while simultaneously allowing for wide ball intakes at the base of the robots. The towers on FIRST choice provide some more evidence for that.

Given that many teams in 2010 didn't even use the towers for the wheels, I think that AM simply decided to put a few of them up on FIRST choice rather than make 8,000 'spares' for teams.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

There are a lot of linear motion parts available in FIRST Choice this year...

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

It seems like a lot of people here are assuming AndyMark decides what goes into FIRST Choice... When it was introduced last year, it was pretty clear it was an on-line extension of the KoP - In other words, FIRST's KoP engineers decide what goes on it, and AndyMark is simply the supplier of the parts they want. That's why there are a bunch of pneumatic parts on there - a lot of teams don't use pneumatics each year, so including them in the KoP is wasteful... but with FIRST Choice, teams can get those parts if they decide they need them.

I would assume that FIRST chose each of the parts in FIRST Choice for a reason. The risers are a pretty good indication of increased bumper height, the only question is why...

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

I know this is slightly off topic but how did you get this link? I can't seem to find any way to this page.

- Sunny G.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Or uneven terrain. We haven't had to climb anything for quite a while - since 2006.

(arguments could be made for 2007 & 2010, but in 2010 teams could navigate the entire field without climbing bumps, and in 2007, there were several designs like 1501 that didn't require outlandish climbing abilities of the other robots.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

One of our team members sent out a link to our Google group with it - I have no idea where he found it, and I can't find it either.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

I don't think the FIRST KoP engineers make their decisions in a bubble. If AndyMark donated a portion of the towers in 2010 and 50% of them weren't used, then that's 50% of the donation wasted. While I doubt they'd fully disclose the KoP survey to AM, I'm sure they asked AM about specifics.

If Jared's predictions about fast-paced counters (from game hint #1) are anywhere near correct, then this could definitely be a shooter year. The real question is ... what size ball? The sheer amount of counters in game hint #1 implies many small balls. Yet the GDC has used uniformity in most game objects between 2005-2010, and all of a sudden a change to multiple objects in 2011. Thus I expect to see multiple ball sizes this year.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

I have a sneaky feeling we need to be logged in to see the link to the page.

- Sunny G.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Bill's latest blog links to this page.
http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...c/first-choice

with a link under "FIRST Choice Description". I'm logged in and it doesn't seem to matter either way.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

I don't think you have to be logged in to find the link from the AM home page, but it's to the real FIRST Choice, not the public list of items.
The public list of items just seems to be linked from Bill's Blog so far.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Ah yes, I see it now. I apologize for the digression.

Back to speculating!
- Sunny G.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

I didn't think about getting a link up on our main site until this afternoon. Sorry everyone! There is now a link front and center of the top of the AndyMark homepage if you are trying to navigate anyone to the list of parts.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Thanks!

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Nice to see the return to the good old Thomas compressor, assuming the picture is correct.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

my guess to why they switched being heat issues?

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Curious to see how many item credits each team will get, and then how many credits each item is "worth".

Also, a warning to the folks at AM: get that web server in tip-top shape, because it's going to get slammed in a few weeks like the FIRST website on day one of regional registration. You don't want it crashing at the worst possible moment. :o

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

More likely they are just burning off old inventory that was at FIRST HQ.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Most importantly (to me), by putting the old compressor in the "kit of parts", it won't count against your BOM costs (at least according to last years' rules).

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Yeah, it just didn't seem right that you had to buy a part (the rookie compressor) if you wanted it to count for free, while the part you got for free from FIRST you had to account for the cost.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

oh ok.

i just remember reading the complaints about the smaller compressors getting terribly hot.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Just completed my team's FIRST Choice order. Got everything we wanted. You get 100 points to spend. Some items have a max. quantity of 1 or 2 per team, other items are unlimited quantities to order per team. Points costs based on items seemed reasonable to me.

We were able to select 7 discreet items some in multiple quantities (14 total items) for exactly 100 points. No wasted points for us. :cool:

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Compressor is out of stock now at 12:25. I think it was the first item to go. Festo single solenoids valves are also going fast.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

no shock there... the thomas compressors are so much better than those viar compressors... surprisingly, they were donated by thomas, not AM... so there goes the extra stock theory...

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Very pleased with the system this year, with the minor exception of the countdown timer being based on your own computer's time rather than server time.

Very happy with the choices.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

Battery Chargers and Festo single solenoids gone now too.

Re: [BB] FIRST Choice, Second Year!
 

We got the short end of the stick. Our account would not allow to actually place the order for nearly an hour, and of course by that time the batteries were gone. By the time it let our order through, it only let 38 credits of our order through, and now shows 2 credits left. Haven't yet seen our remaining 60, waiting on help from Andymark (who are probably busy with not just us). In short, there's some room for improvement for next year.

Aside from those technical issues which are apparently uncommon, I definitely like how the system is set up to allow a flexible assortment of parts.