Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

With the regular season over and the off-season coming to a close, we've seen tubes scored with single jointed arms, lifts, arm/lifts, Rube Goldberg Machines (Team 118 :D ), etc. In your opinion, what was the most effective type of scoring mechanism used in Logomotion?

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

Most effective, or most interesting/unique? Most effective was 254's roller claw/elevator combination (it did win champs this year after all!). The most interesting/unique design was easily 118's. I love their entire bot, which looks like half of it was salvaged from a shopping cart! :D

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

From what I saw 254 had a very smooth fast and consistent scoring device. Why? because it was very fast, simple and consistent. So in my opinion a machine like 254,111,33,118 (yes 118 counts) and any other team that had the roller gripper & the linear lift. Why? Like I said they were fast, simple and consistent.

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

Honestly, it didn't matter what kind you used, as long as you beat the heck out of it and practiced with it to the ground.

If I had the resources, I think something similar to 1625's IRI bot was probably the way to go.

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

I think our claw can attest to that... I'm surprised it still functions after all the crap we put it through. But honestly, I don't think anyone's claw took as much of a beating as 469's did. Their lift slamming that thing on the ground coupled with their aggressive defense put their arm through the ringer. I believe it actually shattered during IRI.

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

1717 at champs had a consistent 10 tube per-match robot. Didn't do as well during regionals but hats of to them for constant improvement. Thats with a krab base, elevator and 'pecker' manipulator.

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

Nick Lawrence.

Hands down they key to many robots is their driver. If you build a system that may not be as fast as another in THEORY but have a skilled driver you can easily make up the difference.

If i had to pick the most effective design I'd have to say 1503/330 They are simple, easy to manufacture, and allowed teams to have driver practice. Yes they are "worse" than the elevators but part of my evaluation criteria is ease of manufacturing.

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

The Arm+Lift method was definitely tops, but I also like the low mounted, telescoping arms, like Mighty Monkey Wrenches' design.

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

Hands down I'd have to say 469's 8 foot elevator was one of the fastest darn things I'd seen all year. That thing dropped like a boss. One of the manipulators I liked best was Team 1986's spatula-esque claw. Their design was so wide I'd be amazed if they couldn't get a tube.

Oh, and there's the Roller-Clamps, but those never seemed to work out too well ;)

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

IMO, it seems like the Roller Claw with a Wrist on an Elevator Seemed to be the most effective. The Extra degree of freedom offered by the wrist seemed to add a visible advantage. (See 111 or 254 for this design)

Really, Andrew?

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

While teams were able to achieve amazing results with telescoping arm and single joints, I believe the driveablity and repeatability of the linear lift made it somewhat superior. The linear lift, coupled with a roller claw or well designed "pinch" claw seemed to be a very solid combination this year.

A "new" design, at least to me, seemed to show up this year. I consider what 111 and 177 built this year to be "hybrid" designs where they basically have an arm mounted on a linear lift. Very interesting functionality came from this design choice.

In my opinion the roller claw with the ability to open was a huge advance in tube gripper design.

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

I stand by my claim that a good driver is a key component of an effective design.

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

I've seen their claw shatter at least once per tournament (and I've watched them at 6 in-season and off-season tournaments). They usually have around 6 spares with them, and usually fix it often.



As to design, many teams have a vertical elevator, short arm, and roller claw used by us, and teams such as 254 and 111. Note that all of these robots have a vertical elevator, short arm, and pneumatic-release roller claw, and all were developed independently, which tells me that it is likely very close to the optimal solution.

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

It's always fun to analyze "the best design", but Chris is right; it doesn't matter what design you have, it's all about specific implementation and practice.

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

In determining the best design, I don't think you should look at how the top teams do, because they have enough talent, experience and dedication to make almost any design work. 111 would have been an elite scorer with 330's design, 254 would have been equally sucessful with 1503's design. Instead, I think its wise to look at which designs lead teams to have breakout years. In doing this, I think the elevator with short roller arm (like 111, 254) shows to be the best design. 1675 used this design to have easily their best year (Alliance captian at both regionals and championship) and 2122 was quietly one of the best tube scorers (upset 148/234 on Newton then IRI finalist) with this design as well. There are a few others teams that had their best year with this design, but I can't think of them right now.

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

Don't forget about the hundred or so other words in that post.

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

I thought team 40 was pretty insane this year, I didn't see them much at CMP but i remember they did 4 complete logos by themselves at a regional somewhere. while no team 233 style arm made it onto Einstein i think that it was one of the more elegant solutions requiring no turning around to score.

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

I absolutely loved Team 40 this year. Their pink- style arm was very effective and their elimination-round strategy nearly forced a rubber match on us in the semifinals. Watching their swerve do a double tube autonomous was pretty slick as well.

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

Nick Lawrence also drove for 1503 in 2010.



A good driver can't fix everything... (And I know 1503 agrees!)

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

I'm going to have to disagree, I feel that there is a large difference between design and execution.

A driver is something that is outside of the robot, and as much as it seems some people on this forum would like to, you can't design a driver. You can design the driver interface (intuitive controls, logical presets, fluid/consistent motion, etc) though.

As for ease of manufacturing and driver practice...The majority of practice for teams occurs during the competition season. Either with their practice bot or at the competition. Being able to easily manufacture a robot (I'm assuming this includes building in a smaller time period as well) is more of a construction/upkeep benefit. The ability to put a robot on the floor in Week 4 instead of Week 5 is mainly an advantage for troubleshooting issues that wouldn't otherwise be seen until later. I can't imagine many teams getting a significant amount of practice time in with their drivers during this time frame.

That being said, ease of manufacturing does imply less likely to break down and easier to repair if it does. Giving a team more time to practice while another robot might have to be maintained. I still find that the practice time difference between an easily manufactured robot and that of one not easily manufactured wouldn't be weeks but hours, and depending on how much a team practices that difference in time can become minimal.

I'll agree that simplicity is always a key feature to a successful robot, and that drivers are a crucial part to any success on the field. Driver's are still something that has to interact with a scoring design, they're not part of it.


Team 2016 had a similar approach, albeit not identical, to a 233 style. They were World Finalists.

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

You can't rely on your drive team to bring all the magic to the field. You gotta have a fair bit in the robot too!

-Nick

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

I agree a good driver can't fix everything but neither can a good design. a 14 jointed arm may be the optimal way of scoring a game piece but if your driver can't use it you aren't going to be doing well.

In general I would claim that no one part of the system is best. I would claim that the most effective scoring system is the one which your team is adequately able to design, manufacture, iterate, program, and drive. I'm just saying that you have to evaluate things as a system rather than as a single item inside that system.

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

Also, in the above photo that does not exist, what is that one judge in the background doing?

-Nick

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

That was a the Granite State Regional. I will agree, I was in awe of their robot this past season. What makes team 40 stand out is their unique drivebase that gives them crab like drive and amazing strategy.

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

Think of 987's robot as an elevated 233 design...we often picked up on one side and scored on the opposite without turning around ...even during our 2 tube auto... enough to make it to Einstein with great partners but not enough to advance to final round;)

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

If your driver cannot drive what you put on the field for him to drive, your robot is useless at worst. At best, your robot will be performing at less than its best the entire time.

As a pilot for an R/C airplane team, there are certain things that I will be insisting on when the plane's control surfaces are designed, so that I will be able to keep the plane in the air when it is time to fly it.

Can you design a driver? Not necessarily (practice helps, but not if you don't have some degree of talent). Can you design to play to the driver's strengths and driving style? YES. Designing in such a way that the driver's strengths and style play into your strategy will really help you on the field. This is, of course, assuming that you know your driver ahead of time.

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

Laughing at you trying to drive on two bent wheels.

:yikes:

But on the topic of driver vs. machine, I think there are designs that lend themselves to easier driver control.

Driver skill was most important in the midfield play where you had to switch between offense and defense while grabbing useful tubes from the clusterf*** (pardon my french) of robots, tubes and inane boundaries. Arm and elevator alike faced similar problems.

Machine was most important in actually scoring. A long arm like 694's (I think we were dangerously close to or actually out of the perimeter dimensions of 84") was unwieldy, wobbly and hard to hang with. Elevators had the advantage of being able to line up parallel to the axes of the field, especially with swerve or Swiss drive. See 177's auton. The robot lined up its tube horizontally and vertically and smashed themselves face first into the rack. And hung tubes like that. And it didn't take a good driver at all.

Ergo, elevators always win. (It's a point of personal contention; I pushed elevators early on, and I got shut down by the arm camp)

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

Not necessarily. 987's iteration of a long scoring arm bested many elevators. There's definitely a reason why they were the first pick at IRI.

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

I don't think I ever saw 987 in action, but yeah, okay, there were long, fixed-length arms that were driven well. However, I'm sure it wasn't easy at all to practice up to that skill level. An elevator still has the advantage of being easy from the get-go, because lining up with the pegs is so straightforward. You are always at the same distance from the rack, no matter what height you're trying to get. (That's another advantage of telescoping designs in general; you can always be in the "safe" scoring zone. Sometimes, your arm pushes you out into the "get pushed around" zone.)

Re: Most Effective Scoring Design?
 

The advantage was for the top row, you didn't have to turn around. It allowed a forward-back motion without ever having to turn around. They were a great complement to an elevator who would stay and maneuver int he zone scoring, while the over the top arm would go far for tubes.