Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard)
 

Material to discuss is here

Re: Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard)
 

As a current college Freshman/Sophomore/Junior (came in with a lot of credits) some of this does hold true.

Note: Some of this may sound like a shameless plug for Iowa State University, to some extent it is but a lot of it has to do with what I actually believe is and will help me succeed in getting my undergraduate and masters degree

A lot of the general courses that hundreds of students take each semester are just awful. For example I am in statics and I don't blame anyone for dropping that class. Our book explains almost nothing you have to interpret what the equations mean and the professor only teaches to half of the class. I have seen juniors drop the course left and right because they simply can't learn the material. Additionally the course is graded on a 90+ A 80-89 B etc system, which becomes problematic when the average exam grade is 65 for the class. Many students simply won't pass the class, and a lot will be discouraged to try again.

Comparatively all of the Materials Engineering professors I have had are some of the nicest and best instructors I have had in my life. They are clear, actually care about the students and are willing to strike up a 10 minute conversation about the material after class. They seem to really enjoy what they do and care about the students doing well.

The problem is, you may not have them for your first 2 or 3 semesters so you are stuck with apathetic instructors teaching gen eds to a bunch of kids who are apathetic about the gen-eds and just want to get into their major. As a result they can't pull off the grades necessary to proceed and end up switching majors.

Another thing that has helped me so far this year is having a good network of upperclassmen and peers in my own classes who are willing to help other students get past hurdles and obstacles in their way. The Materials Engineering student room at ISU has students in it probably all daylight hours and sometimes 24 hours a day depending on when it is and almost everyone is willing to answer questions, talk about experiences, make suggestions etc.

People refer to us as a cult because we all study together, eat together, sit together in class, many of us live together and hang out together as well. But really, despite the negative connotation of the word cult we are really tight-knit and I think that is one of the strongest points of the Mat E program and why we have such stellar results and such a well ranked program here.

Without this networking underclassmen may struggle to get the help they need if they don't want to hire a tutor because there is just one hurdle they need to get over or one concept they need explained. Lots of colleges are pushing for learning communities and the like to help students network and help each other and I think that is a fundamental part of retention in engineering programs.

Additionally, the article touched on the application of all this engineering knowledge. In the case of being a Material Engineer at ISU I am lucky, first our professors constantly reference real world situations or scenarios where the course material occurred. Additionally we are home to Ames Lab a US Dept of Energy National Laboratory that does a lot of materials work (Dan Shechtman's Quasi-crystals anyone?) as well as a Center for Non-Destructive Evaluation that a lot of Materials Engineering undergraduates work at. Which allows students to do hands on work related to the material they are learning in class.

I couldn't imagine being at a school without all of these opportunities, and in typing this I am realizing how privileged I am at ISU to have such opportunities. I think the sense of belonging and professors eagerly encouraging are two of the biggest factors that will push me through to get my BS and MS here.

EDIT:
One last thing to chime in on is that students shouldn't forget to have fun when they are in college too. Who says you can't have fun while writing a lab report or doing homework? There are constantly jokes and conversations occurring in the student room while people do their homework (or play minecraft / flash games) on the computers, and we have a box of pre-2000 video game consoles people can take to a room and play on a projector if they want. If someone tries to get through college with a all work no fun and games atitude I think it would be hard to survive. If you can't sit back and laugh in hindsight about how you ended up with extra mass in chemistry or similar problems you will have a rough time in college.

Other majors think we are insane for doing materials engineering with how difficult many of them find the intro to materials engineering for non materials engineers course. One of my friends called me a masochist for going into it, I told him he is correct. I think to follow it through to the end you really have to want the end result and know that you want it.

Endnote: I am not saying that we should make classes easier or accept a lower grade. What I am trying to say with reference to statics and Gen Eds is that I think they are a make or break it course in whether someone sticks with engineering or not. When the teachers for these courses are not enthusiastic for the kids learning I think many kids lose interest and subsequently struggle. I am under the impression that the teaching style of these courses (big lecture halls) isn't as conducive to a high rate of people entering and leaving as engineers.

$0.02

Re: Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard)
 

STEM is the new cool, STEM is the new fun, but nobody said STEM is the new easy.

Re: Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard)
 

If we make it the new easy we will graduate a lot more engineers. Maybe even 10,000. Heaven help us.

Re: Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard)
 

Statics is the best. Materials is the worst. ;)

Signed,
Mech E

Re: Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard)
 

Trent,

For the statics problem you mention in terms of material difficulty, there really isn't a good solution. I had a great statics teacher, many of the class did well, yet the average was still incredibly low for what I had been used to.

It's maybe 10% as difficult as higher level engineering classes (possibly not even that difficult), so making it easier or grading on a more substantial curve isn't an option.

I'm not saying this is what you proposed, but we can't solve the problem of fewer engineers by making engineering easier.

Re: Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard)
 

There's a reason why not everyone graduates with an engineering degree. The fact is, neither the job market can handle nor the general populace supply what it requires to be an engineer (and not just getting the basic, 4-year degree).

Re: Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard)
 

Great topic -at both the university and secondary levels.
Should we be reactive or proactive in the pipeline of education?

Do the jobs already exist and go un-filled until we produce the graduate, or is the job created as the students progresses through their education, or worse yet, do we produce 10,000 graduates for jobs that don't exist?

Re: Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard)
 

I was talking with someone last night on a related topic, actually. The topic was, why would a political science major (almost graduated) be getting a second undergrad degree, but in civil engineering, at a different school? (See end for answer.)

OK, so I go to an engineering school where projects, while not necessarily part of the curriculum, are everywhere. There are 15 competition teams, 1 team without a competition (there's only one other school trying to do what they're working on), and I'm fairly sure there are a few other engineering problem-solving groups. Again, they aren't necessarily part of the curriculum unless you do them for your senior design project, but they do have a tendency to fit both the curriculum and the interest of the student.


(The answer: What's a political science degree really worth? And yes, that is pretty much what he said. Along with actually being able to do something for someone, which was another reason given.)

Re: Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard)
 

Mr. Campbell brings up an EXCELLENT point (do we produce graduates for jobs that don't exist) that maybe students are catching on to quicker than those employed or retired. The reality is that engineering and hard sciences is not a sacred line of work that cannot be exported overseas (and I don't mean western Europe, Canada, Australia, and Japan, I mean India, China, Russia, Latin America, etc - places that have lower standard of living). I think some of us (myself included) thought this was the case. The fact is, you can do a lot of the work that engineers do overseas: Production, design work, and even research off the top of my head.
So, if the field is small and likely to get smaller, what is the drive to go into engineering and science? I don't have any actual data on hand, but I seem to recall in recent years, the number of graduates unable to get a full-time job in the engineering field to be quite high.
Now add to it that engineering/hard sciences are generally more expensive - often requiring more than four years with additional cost in each term (labs, tuition, etc) along with rising education costs overall. This often requires students to take on more debt, which cannot be discharged in bankruptcy, thus delaying when they can reasonably buy a home, car, start a family, etc even if they do find a job.
Then there is the biggest thing for a lot of college students: engineering and the hard sciences are difficult and require a lot more time and effort than other degrees. Instead of spending all weekend enjoying themselves, they often HAVE to study or do homework.

All this to say: students have many reasons for dropping out. Some of those reasons are the exact same reasons I think we (as part of the engineering / hard sciences community) should not push students without a genuine interest in the field to pursue it and even those that do have an interest should be told downsides to the field (and no, I have not given all of them) while also giving telling them about other options that may in fact be more interesting and practical (trade schools are one example).

Re: Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard)
 

So you can't "do something for someone" [presumably helpful to society, and not just lining someone's pockets] in today's political landscape? I'm glad someone actually admitted it. :D Returning to the main topic.

Re: Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard)
 

No one said it was easy, but it is worth it.

Re: Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard)
 

Meh, it might be possible. Just might need a bit of pocket-lining to do it...:p

It just isn't as concrete as, say, being able to put a bridge where there was actually a need for one and there wasn't one before.

Re: Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard)
 

I wonder how much punnage that bridge can withstand.

Again, back to main topic.

Re: Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard)
 

I guess to try and clarify that point. The material is hard, no way around that it is what it is. But it seems like many of the gen ed professors are more apathetic than the ones teaching courses that are in a particular major. Because of this they often aren't as clear on what they are trying to teach, as a result kids get confused do poorly on the exams and start to give up. When this happens and the prof sees people dropping left and right or just not trying anymore, why should they try so hard to teach. Thus we enter the vicious cycle.

I am not sure what the best way out is.

And hey Akash, let me know next time you need a material for your engineering project. Oh wait, everything is made of materials isn't it? (sarcasm)