[BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 9, 2011

So what does FRC do in November?
Good Afternoon Teams,

We’re finalizing Kickoff. Engineering is gathering Kit of Parts components (not everything has arrived at our warehouse in preparation for kit packing yet); beta testing new control system components (my thanks to the teams who are helping); completing field drawings for local kickoff field builders; and updating a competition field in preparation for the kickoff filming and for display at the Manchester screening. Upstairs we’re supporting the local kickoffs; and preparing for workshops, the Founder’s Reception and the screening at SNHU where the GDC will be present to talk to teams. (The GDC, by the way, is busy finalizing the Game Manual.) In the field, Regional Directors are recruiting and supporting teams; working with Regional Planning Committees to plan competition events; and drumming up sponsor and donor support for FIRST.

We’re gearing up for build season. While teams are busy building robots, we will be training key volunteers, working out final details for competitions, building field elements, sourcing materials, packing trucks, finalizing award judging and holding a week zero event to test the new game systems in a competition environment. So right now we’re scheduling people, equipment and materials to ensure everything is in place the minute the Kickoff broadcast ends.

We’re planning for Championship. Maybe things will look a little different this year?

We have our eyes on the future. We’re looking ahead at everything from the business plan, to new technologies to new staff structures to a few other exiting changes.

So enjoy the quiet before the storm. It will be raining soon enough.

While you are waiting for the big day, check out the usfirst.org website. UL has introduced a new Safety ambassador program.

Anybody interested in a game hint? The GDC is mulling it over right now.

59 days until Kickoff
See you then!
POSTED BY BILL AT 1:58 PM

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

Hmmm, very interesting word choice in the last sentence.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mull

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

Perhaps the hint has to do with one of the synonym to chew sincethe origin means to crush/ chew, mull could be thinking while chewing food, to mull over dinner. Wonder what this means.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

This was my thought exactly. Probably means that the game involves sorting through something or something like that.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

I'm more entertained by the use of the word "exiting" which I am guessing is a typo.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

Hopefully the intended definition is not "to make a mess or failure of." !

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

I don't think most of us want to read this kind of non-information. Casual half-warnings don't give anything useful in return for the time spent reading them. They merely invite speculation, which is rarely a good thing.

So who's leaving the GDC this year?

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

I was thinking mulled like mulled apple cider. I foresee a rain of apple cider.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

The Championship bit has me a little miffed. So they're teasing us by saying they know the Championship will be different, but they won't tell us how. Considering we will likely have to pay for it before we even know if we get to play in the dome, I would certainly hope they can have near-final plans ready to tell the teams about more than a month before the event this year.

Ugh.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

This goes along with the Kinect: The mulling, or thinking about something likely includes a human choice element, directed by the Kinect. Now, what is something that is best used with a Kinect?

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

Don't get hyped up over the championship! There are too many things it could mean and i'm mostly thinking it has to do with layout whether we like them or not we don't really have a choice. Considering it was their first year at an event i'm not surprised to be hearing such lingo.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

We don't have a choice if they don't tell us before the payment deadline... Just saying.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

I hope they don't move all of FRC to the pits. I know it's a bit early to speculate, but I wouldn't doubt it, seeing how CARD is starting up. If we qualify for Championships this year, I would hate to break it to the freshman and the first year team members that we won't be competing in the dome. Just walking onto the dome floor is a feeling that can't be replaced. As many people as possible should experience it... Where everyone has their eyes on you and your robot. FIRST was about that feeling... that feeling of inspiring people in science and technology, and being a sport where everyone goes pro.

If being on a dome floor full of people going crazy and being excited about your robot doesn't fall under inspiration and recognition, then I don't know what does.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

I have heard that CARD did not receive FIRST approval, so I doubt any changes are related to CARD.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

All i'm saying is don't go crazy when changes are made because once they are announced they have been made official; complaining won't change them.

steps off soap box

What is CARD?

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

There is a new game coming out for kinect where you have to go through the shape in the wall. I think that it kinda has something to do with the mulling definition that i heard.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

A collegiate robotics competition. FIRST had the pilot event at Championship last year in the pits. In the FLL end of the pits, IIRC from the event maps.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

Aaaah! I saw a few rounds of that but couldn't connect the name.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

Exciting change at the championships? Could it be 8 divisions this year and a full bracket on Einstein?

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

With a speech between each game, they'd have to add another day! :ahh:

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

Having 8 divisions would be really cool! It would give more opportunity as well to other teams of having that irreplaceable feeling of being on Einstein! I would love to see that happen! However i don't think they have enough space. They might be able to do 6... (4 in the stadium, 2 in the pits) but 8 would be hard.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

With how things were in the dome, I can't see them doing this even if the area claimed by i.am.FIRST last year was available. Giving the two non-Einstein FRC fields more separation from FTC and FLL would be a higher priority to me. (You may be able to cram two more FRC fields in the space i.am.FIRST occupied last year, but that would be VERY cozy and lead to even more issues like we found on Newton during our day in the dome next to FTC.)

Fix the pit field seating, space out the dome fields (and FTC), and I'll be satisfied with the nuts and bolts. If Bill's non-notice was regarding icing on the metaphorical cake, well, we'll handle that later.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

Icing?!? Frozen water game!

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

WATER
WATER
WATER
WATER
WATER
WATER
WATER
WATER
WATER
WATER
WATER
WATER
WATER
WATER

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

loo loo loo...

-Nick

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

It would not be the same feeling or glory as teams who have been to Einstein with 4 divisions because it would simply not be as hard as it was for them.

8 divisions would be cool, if logistically possible, but it wouldn't be the same as the current Einstein.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

I'm thinking that if you were there, it'd be the same for you!

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

This is good news, I'm looking forward to getting onto the field and talking with the GDC this year at Kickoff. Note that it is becoming increasing likely that EWCPcast will be filming the field, as well as interactions with whatever the game pieces and taking pictures to share with the FIRST community.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

8 divisions:
Archimedes
Curie
Galileo
Newton
Aldrin
Armstrong
Grissom
Wolf

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

8 divisions??!?!??! Might as well have a whole competition for the pre-division playoffs and on.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

Swap-out "Wolf"... replace with "V-Neun"... IMHO... ;-)

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

Are you saying JVN is spacey? :ahh:

edit: more than a little sarcasm should be read in that.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

JVN is awesome and helpful... an exemplar for those pursuing EXCELLENCE...

You either get-it, or you don't.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

Switch your new ones for:
Bacon
Goddard
Von Braun
Fermi

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

When I suggested 8 divisions 3 months ago you didn't like it. Meanie. (Just messing with you Akash.)

I've been thinking a lot on the subject of 8 divisions just to give each team more field time at the CMP. If the over all number were capped at 400 (~50 more teams than now) it'd allow for 50 Team Divisions, so each team could play anywhere from up to 15 matches depending on turn around and assuming we kept the Thursday Quals.

Seems like this could work in Theory, but would require 4 fields in the Dome and 4 Fields in the pits, not including Einstein. I think there's enough space for it, but I haven't crunched any hard numbers or figured out where FLL and FTC pits would be.

Division play offs might be less exciting than with the current 4 Division system. Figure 1 of every 2 teams would make Eliminations vs the current ~ 1 in 3.5.

Would be interesting to see.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

As cool as it would be too see 8 divisions at Champs, the shear volume in increase of the needed volunteers; FTAs, scoring, field reset, etc... required to double the number of fields makes this idea seem rather unlikely.

I'd be happy to just see the return of the fields to the dome. Walking into the dome for the first time as a senior in high school back in 2006 in Atlanta and seeing all those fields and people was nothing short of amazing.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

If they had a full Elimination bracket for Einstein, maybe the finals matches wouldnt feel like such a side-show to everything else...

-Nick

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

This year was definitely the worst for that.
I don't think the average FIRSTer understands how bad it was.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

I fixed it to the appropriate space names.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

For those doubters, I did the math last year and posted it in one of the Championship threads, its POSSIBLE to fit 10 FRC fields on a Regulation NFL field. (That leaves 8 FRC Divisions, plus einstein/fll, plus an FRC field sized hole for 2 FTC fields).

Yes, it would be a little cramped, and yes, logistically it would have to be worked out (robot paths in/out of the dome, etc) but it CAN be done. It might require additional auditory field separation measures, like curtains or something, to prevent too much bleedover from adjacent fields.

Also remember, the floor of an NFL stadium is actually BIGGER than the NFL field it contains.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

You all want to double the number of teams in the queue line?

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

But they're also doubling the number of queue lines.

4 divisions is at about capacity right now. Another year or two, and there just about won't be room for the qualifying teams in 4 divisions. Adding 4 more divisions (and reducing division size) allows room to expand in future, while buying time to come up with another qualifying structure.

Now, that provides a rather large logistical challenge... but there are ways to deal with logistics.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

And the number of teams overall. You would need twice as much pit space, and I don't know how they would manage that one.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

I highly doubt we will see 8 divisions of 75 teams they might have the space for the fields but they don't have the pit space. I can see them increasing the number of districts and decrease the number that qualify from each event in order to compensate for the expansion of teams but set Championship space.

It will be very interesting to see what FIRST looks like in 5 years! Look at all the changes in the past 3 years!

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

Not necessarily. If you look at the number of teams proposed (400 in 8 divisions), you don't increase the total all that much. Something like 60 more teams. That's doable with some creative use of space and not having to deal with a concert stage.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

I don't think it will happen, yet. Eventually they will either need to increase the capacity and change qualifying system. These have been hot button topics on CD lately.

I miss the days where wait listing got you in every time for the Championship.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

I think the benefit of 60 more teams at Champs is not worth it for the additional infrastructure and resources needed to pull it off. I would think FIRST would want to see a substantial gain in teams, like 100+ for the additional manpower/planning required.

The additional fields would certainly allow for more matches/team, but I don't think that is a huge issue currently. As you've pointed out Eric, in the near future there won't be enough spots for the pre-qualified teams, let alone anyone else. Increasing the maximum # of teams possible should be the goal. Otherwise, commit to Champs as an event where some type of pre-qualification is needed.

Just my $.02

-Brando

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

Something has to change soon when it comes to championship qualification. FTC and FLL are out of space and have been for years. IIRC FLL teams can only attend the championship every other year (if they qualify and meet scoring qualifications). In FTC only the Inspire Award and Captain of the Winning Alliance get an invite and the 1st and 2nd picks of the winning alliance get put into a lottery.

Even if you get rid of the non-qualifying teams, FRC is still rapidly running out of room at the championships. Imagine if the FRC championships were so impacted that the elite teams could only compete once every other year. Imagine 67 not being at the championships in 2009, or 469 not being at the championships in 2010, or 1114 not being at the championships in 2008... Would a team really be able to call themselves "world champions" if some of the best robots in a given year were not allowed to compete at the championships?

Here's my solution:

Split the programs up and turn Championships into a week long event:

Sunday - Setup for FTC/FLL
Monday - FTC/FLL Judging & Qualification
Tuesday - FTC/FLL Judging & Qualification / FTC Eliminations
Wednesday - Breakdown FTC/FLL and Setup FRC pits and fields
Thursday - FRC Inspection/Qualification Matches
Friday - FRC Qualification Matches
Saturday - FRC Qualification Matches / Divisional Elims / Einstein / Closing Ceremonies

Obviously there are drawbacks for groups that are competing across multiple programs. However, this does allow the championships to grow as the number of teams grow. Imagine how many more FRC teams could compete if they could utilize the space FLL and FTC currently occupy. On the other hand, imagine how many more FTC and FLL teams could compete if they could use the space currently used by the FRC pits and fields.

Just a thought...

--Jon

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

8 divisions:
Archimedes, Curie, Galileo, Newton divisions are populated by teams that "earned" their way in - champions, chairmans, rookie all stars, engineering inspirations, hall of famers.
Play in the main "dome" area.

Flowers, Kamen, Lavery, Murphy are populated by teams that "bought" their way in - waitlisters.
Play in the secondary "pits" area.


Flamesuit: check.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

As much sense as that would make, I could never see FIRST moving in that direction. They seem determined to have more crossover between FLL/FTC and FRC teams, not less.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

I'd personally like to see an east coast and west coast championship, that would effectively double it. But more likely there will be more regions like MAR & FIM, and the regional winners will qualify for champs.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

This seems like a good idea on the surface, but when you dig a little deeper, it falls apart. The obvious upside is that more team compete at championships and it lets all teams with the ability to go actually go, but the negatives probably outweigh the few positives.

The problem is that if Einstein remained as the overall finals, the 4 new divisions would get walked all over. Look at a team like 67, the last time that they failed to qualify is possibly 2003 (unless they won a judged award that year). Your new system prevents buy-in teams from being able to play with the great teams that earned their way in. The split also would put a split in the culture between the teams who "rightfully earned" their way and teams that "are just here because they have money."

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

My only issue with an East & West CMP is that your ability to compete at the highest level will be based on how much money you can afford to spend on event Registration. For a team currently in a district system, they have to spend a minimum of $9,000 just to qualify for the Championship then an additional $6000 for the Championship. Add in another step and you're looking at 20k just in registration fees...

Also, in preliminary number crunching, it seems like the minimum CMP size this year would have to be 362 teams. With 142 teams already registered, this leaves and open capacity for 220 teams. Remove the 26 Historic qualifiers * and you're left with with 192 open spots... This doesn't seem like enough to safely cover the amount of teams who will be awarded spots (336 spots) at the regional and district levels. Are they assuming that 144 of those spots be double filled either through pre-reg and then winning or winning multiple events...?

The numbers almost lead me to believe that there will either be a change in qualifying at the regional and/or district level (less spots) or the CMP will be larger than the usual 8x teams per division.

*Note, 'Historic Qualifiers' includes 15 HOF teams, 7 Original and Sustaining teams, the 2011 world Champions and 2011 CMP Engineering Inspiration winner. Interestingly enough, Additionally, 191, 842, 20 and 973 have not yet registered for the CMP but are qualified. There are also some double qualifiers within the Historic Qualifiers, 191, 151, 111, 254.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

I'm 99.9999% positive there is already a plan in place, and it doesn't involve making championship bigger, it involves more tiers in competition. District winners go to regionals, regional winners go to super-regionals, super-regional winners go to championship.

If what I've heard is correct...

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

From the newly released Section 1 of the 2012 manual:

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

The world championships would really just be a qualifying event for IRI.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

The Wolf division better not have field problems... Then it would be Bad Wolf and I'd insist on parking a Tardis on it.

Additionally, it would provide more matches. If we do 8 divisions of 50 teams that buys us 50 more teams but it also buys us 11 or so matches per team.

I wanted to highlight something Jon said and explain why it is such a problem.

FLL students are the most passionate group of students in FIRST in my experience. They genuinely love being at events (ok, they sometimes get grumpy when hungry) and love to show you what they did. Their enthusiasm is infectious. They also outnumber FRC-ers by a good margin. Why aren't we celebrating them more? Here you have students who have spent lots of money and time travelling across the globe to compete and we say "sorry, the big robots have nearly 400 teams but you guys can only have X (where X < 400)".

Idk, seems like something is wrong here.

Re: [BB] Bills Blog 11/09/11
 

I wouldn't go knocking FLL and FTC guys, they work a lot harder to get to the Championship than FRC teams so cut them some slack they deserve it.

I can see FLL going to another round of competitions before St. Louis in a few years with how fast they are growing with one team representing each country.