Chief Delphi - [EWCP]-11-27-11 Drivetrain Design

Here is the transcript from the chat tonight.
Code:
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<schreiaj> Hello everyone, we're still a bit early so we're waiting for some guests to arrive.

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<Guest 5> is there supposed to be audio or has the chat not started yet?

<schreiaj> hasnt started

<Robotim> starts at nine

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<IndySam> boo

<schreiaj> yes?

<IndySam> hi

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<schreiaj> we'll be getting started shortly. Recording will start around 9pm EST

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<jsneer> hi everyone! hope you all had a great thanksgiving and safe travel

<Guest 11> Thanks for the update

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<jsneer> in case you were wondering the party doesnt start till dustin get here

<thefro526> <3

<schreiaj> If you listen closely you can hear my neighbors playing their music. That will continue until 2am. Creative ideas are welcome 

<IndySam> know where you can get a skunk?

<BrendanB> ideas to get them to shut up?

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<schreiaj> yes please

<BrendanB> febreeze grenade

<Guest 11> Adam, thanks for all of the CAD for FRC Designs

<schreiaj> http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1085327&postcount=11

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<thefro526> Andrew is the old guy of EWCP

<BrendanB> or lack thereof :P

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<rsisk101> hey, easy on old guys

<avanboekel> what time does this start?

<BrendanB> 9

<avanboekel> thanks

<thefro526> 9PM EST

<rsisk101> Or 6PM if you are on teh "cool" coast

<thefro526> or around there

<thefro526> SISK NO ONE LIKES THE WEST COAST

<Guest 11> Hi Leeland and GCentola - Starke here

<rsisk101> bite me

<BrendanB> east coast is where things are at!

<Leeland1126> Sorry, which Starke?

<Guest 11> Matt 

<ahill1625> iowa! cept not really cause its boring

<thefro526> East Coast Brings the party

<Leeland1126> Oh, hi Matt!!

<IndySam> I hate iTunes too!

<avanboekel> darn iTunes

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<GCentola1126> Hi matt!

<aspiece> Hello Everyone! T3 is in the chat!

<Guest 11> Drivetrains are important

<Guest 11> I would not miss this one

<BrendanB> This is looking to be the best cast topic so far!

<aspiece> Sorry! SOund working now. T3 is listening now

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<Guest 11> So, you guys are cool  plug for FRC Designs?

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<Guest 11> I love him too?

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<Guest 16> sooooo about those drives?

<Guest 17> for real

<schreiaj> hey we got 2 minutes :P

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<schreiaj> http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1085327&postcount=11

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<schreiaj> cast@ewcp.org

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<Guest 11> Andrew, thank you for all of your work with the EWCP. It is so helpful

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<aspiece> Wow, there are a lot of Andy's in this cast!

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<thefro526> http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/314571_10150311889922693_601157692_8416283_1245730692_n.jpg

<Leeland1126> That picture has made my night.

<aspiece> Nice!

<thefro526> Best 10 minutes I've ever spent

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<aspiece> Sounds good

The recording has started.

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<Guest 17> Anyone to change my username without creating an account?

<aspiece> Andrew Spiece Team 68

<schreiaj> Not that I know of Guest 17

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<aspiece> We usually stick 1/8"

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<andybaker45> the kit frame is 0.15"

<Travis_Covington> Field elements make a huge difference

<DadCF1279> We've done 1/8 with kitframe(reinforced)

<Travis_Covington> HDPE around the towers this year, wood under the bumps last year

<andybaker45> I suppose, to be more specific, the AM C-Base frame is 0.15", which was the kit frame the past couple of years

<aspiece> We used the kit frame for competition this fall and it seemed to be great.

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<BrendanB> amen!

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<aspiece> Especcially not with T3 wheels

<Guest 16> we just built the KoS and the AM frame works great with the amount of drop it give you

<MarkKramarczyk> What you put on top of the kit frame makes a big difference in how the kit frame turns.

<GCentola1126> Im pretty sure we dropped our centers from 2005-2007 until we switched to adding a pair of omni-wheels. I dont know how far we dropped them though

<schreiaj> Dr Joe, I presume this is THE Dr Joe, you are going to have to call in if you'd like to join the discussion

<Travis_Covington> 233 did it for the same reason

<Travis_Covington> 968 and 254 made bigger middle wheels

<Travis_Covington> later in the year

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<Travis_Covington> 1/2" diamter

<schreiaj> Interesting, Travis, did you find it easier to make larger wheels than to drop the mounting point for the wheel?

<Travis_Covington> 4" on the outside, 4.5" middle

<andybaker45> 45 did that in 2007... all 3 wheels the same, with a larger dia in the middle, about 1/4" more dia.

<schreiaj> DId you regear or just eat the scrub due to speed difference?

<andybaker45> we scrubbed, and had no noticeable difference

<schreiaj> any impact on tread wear?

<andybaker45> nope

<thefro526> http://team254.com/wp-content/gallery/2010-first-championships/atlanta_1_20100605_1303623699.jpg

<thefro526> 254 at the CMP

<Travis_Covington> those wheels rarely touched the ground

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<BrendanB> Yeah we did that as rookies this season and it was amazing!

<Travis_Covington> the blue tread was on there on the front wheels because we would grab the lycra inside the goal with the wedgetop

<Guest 16> KoS is great!!!

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<Baselthe2nd> Could you just not gear to the outside wheels? It'd allow them to freely spin at the faster speed. What issues would there be from that?

<Baselthe2nd> Sorry, chain to the outer wheels..

<thefro526> http://www.simbotics.org/files/pdf/drivetrain-design.pdf

<ahill1625> extra effort and ordering more sprocket sizes basel

<ahill1625> so basically lazyness

<ahill1625> and cheapness

<Travis_Covington> baselthe2nd, there wasnt really a need

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<Travis_Covington> with 8 wheels

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<andybaker45> hey, Joe

<Travis_Covington> 233 has been single speed for a few years now

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<Leeland1126> Drives can be the biggest drain of time if a team needs to fix them, since, at least in my experience, problems with drives rarely come alone.

<GCentola1126> yeah. then it leads to an hour or two of debugginh :P

<GCentola1126> *debugging

<BrendanB> Cough 78 :P

<Bryan33> 1503 is a bit of an exception.

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<thefro526> 1503 is exempt from all rules

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<aspiece> 1. MOve

<Bryan33> It needs to get you where you need to go when you need to be there.

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<GCentola1126> Just out of curiosity, what about the 221 stuff as opposed to the AM kit-bot?

<thefro526> It's fine if that's what you want

<ahill1625> mainly its just more expensive, as it doesn't come in the kit

<Guest 16> 2009

<thefro526> Anthony Lapp don't play no games

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<tubatroopa> I don't think they would make a game where the kit drive train for rookies isn't effective

<aspiece> 8 Wheel Vs. 6 Wheel? advantage to 8 wheel?

<BrendanB> I don't know what 221 is doing because right now almost all of their products have been out of stock since build season.

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<aspiece> T3

<IndySam> Mr Bill says the three most important thing on FRC robots is #1 drive train #2 drive train #3 drive train

<ahill1625> Mr. bill is a smart man

<schreiaj> ^ Sam, absolutely

<Guest 14> why dont more elite teams use swerve drive?

<DadCF1279> 8 will rotate about center if balanced.

<Leeland1126> Swerve can have a lot of pit falls to be wary of.

<GCentola1126> Guest 14-did they prototyoe it in the offseason?

<Guest 28> such as?

<BrendanB> depends on what they can do and what the game can be played better with.

<Leeland1126> complexity and ease of malfunction, for one.

<tubatroopa> swerve can be expensive and complex

<Baselthe2nd> Disadvantages of 8 wheels vs 6: just weight?

<Leeland1126> Even elite teams can have those problems

<aspiece> I see. thanks! A lot of teams were using 8 wheel in 2011 and wanted to get some other perspectives

<Guest 14> oh ok

<Travis_Covington> efficiency

<Guest 28> DO I SMELL A WATER GAME?????

<GCentola1126> no

<tubatroopa> shun

<ahill1625> no

<thefro526> 6 vs 8 is just more parts

<thefro526> more weight

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<thefro526> and a marginal change in efficiency (irrelevant)

<Leeland1126> For some, it may be unnecessary to risk using a very complex swerve drive in a game that does not necessitate omnidirectional movement.

<schreiaj> Troopa, expensive is an understatement, the design I'm working on is looking to cost ~$2000

<thefro526> ANDREW lets build it!

<Brew1086> what is an estimated weight on the KOS?

<Travis_Covington> 2001

<thefro526> ~5lbs more than a kit bot

<Guest 14> that sound like enough disadvantadges to have a reason to stick to the good ol' WCD "P

<Travis_Covington> to get up the ramp

<Travis_Covington> but it was required to get timing belt

<andybaker45> team 60... 2002

<BrendanB> 2003 was stack

<andybaker45> they introduced wedgebelt

<Guest 11> yes 2003

<Travis_Covington> but that was linatex timing belt

<DadCF1279> last year was 4 cim, 4 window, 4 banebot, & 1 FP

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<Guest 28> I just lost the game.

<Travis_Covington> andy is right, 2002 brought the wedgetop that everyone loved

<Travis_Covington> it wasnt legel before then

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<andybaker45> the efforts to find traction during the 2002 season was amazing, and team 60 found wedgetop

<tubatroopa> metal treads!!!!

<Travis_Covington> or file cards, ala 71 

<BrendanB> ^yes!

<thefro526> Can we please bring file cards back

<schreiaj> gosh no...

<BrendanB> file cards would have been cool in 09!

<ahill1625> ice picks would've been cool in 09

<Leeland1126> Not having 09 would have been cool in 09

<schreiaj> ^

<DadCF1279> Drives were very different before bumpers, like the varied techniques for climbing steps in 2004.

<ahill1625> ^ that, even though we did okay

<thefro526> < loves 2009

<MarcS> Carpet would have been cool in 09.

<ahill1625> 09 with carpet would've been murder

<BrendanB> hahah I try to forget our 2009 robot even though it was pretty good. too many things to change!

<Leeland1126> I don't think even carpet could have saved Lunacy

<thefro526> 2009 was the best game ever

<BrendanB> because you could drift like anomoly did?

<schreiaj> Hang on, silencing Dustin from being able to speak so we can bash 2009

<Guest 28> Trolololol

<aspiece> T3 liked 2009

<thefro526> Andrew, why you mad

<Guest 28> You mad bro?

<ahill1625> snuggles would've had his way with anomaly

<Baselthe2nd> 2009? Shun.

<thefro526> Also, someone asked me if we had a swerve at Philly

<schreiaj> T3 needs to go back to your old 6wd

<aspiece> LOL

<thefro526> I was like 'we practiced a lot'

<schreiaj> I've been telling Brent that

<Travis_Covington> double D...ugh

<Guest 11> i do

<aspiece> Give us a game where defense is a serious strategy

<DadCF1279> Yes, never blew up a globe.

<tubatroopa> I've heard of the globe...why the switch?

<MarkKramarczyk> we long for the globe motor

<Guest 11> globes were.........interesting

<ahill1625> the company stopped making them

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<DadCF1279> you could remove a stage

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<DadCF1279> I think 700rpm instead of 125

<andybaker45> 4 seat motors

<thefro526> We welded the stage

<andybaker45> 2 drills

<ahill1625> 81rpm to around 405rpm

<Travis_Covington> with the flexible shafts and square drive

<Travis_Covington> awesome

<thefro526> Travis, what team are you with now?

<schreiaj> I remember those flexible shafts

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<andybaker45> seat motors were about 50 watts

<Travis_Covington> 60 lifted the goals in 2002 with 1 seat motor per goal

<ahill1625> i've found all these motors laying around from team #44 that used to be at Iowa State

<Travis_Covington> 254

<schreiaj> I have all manner of expletives for those

<Travis_Covington> since 2009

<thefro526> That's Travis, I couldn't remember

<andybaker45> Van door motor, globe motor... who brought those to FIRST?

<schreiaj> I'd bet delphi but that's not based on anything other than a gut feeling

<thefro526> when I started in FRC (2005/2006) you were with RAWC

<andybaker45> I believe that the answer is the guy who is talking now

<schreiaj> Ah ok

<DadCF1279> I think 2005 was the first time they supplied a gearbox for CIMs.

<schreiaj> yes

<schreiaj> and 2007 was the worst gearbox for CIMs ever

<ahill1625> the ones paul copioli designed for IFI

<Guest 11> 2004 robot with drill motors: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/17077

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<Guest 11> Proud to say I was apart of it

<Travis_Covington> I miss the van door, too

<DadCF1279> 2007 was the Banebot planetary

<andybaker45> 2002 = CIM's first year

<andybaker45> 2005 = the large CIM Motor

<Guest 11> with tensioner right Andy?

<schreiaj> 2007 was the Banebots pain-in-the-***

<andybaker45> yes

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<thefro526> CIM motor is best motor.

<Travis_Covington> atwood mobile lift jack

<Guest 11> That was weird. Did you try machining the extra plate off?

<thefro526> That motor single handedly changed FRC

<Guest 14> what was wrong with the banebots in 07?

<ahill1625> the team that helped start 1625 called them chalupa's

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<Travis_Covington> 2003 we got the ones with the 8mm shaft

<aspiece> Aren't CIM motors also used in electric wheelchairs

<schreiaj> The BB 07 transmission looked like you could direct drive a wheel with it and cantilever the wheel. You couldn't at all

<andybaker45> 1999

<Guest 31> now we're at 900W a side...

<Travis_Covington> Double Trouble

<Travis_Covington> ladder logic

<Travis_Covington> yes

<andybaker45> Ladder Logic = 98

<Travis_Covington> 1998

<Guest 31> 98 was tower terror...?

<Guest 31> nvm

<tubatroopa> Andy would know about 98 

<Travis_Covington> torroid terror? 97?

<Guest 31> thats what im thinking

<thefro526> Andy won 98?

<Travis_Covington> Andy in his beanie... classic moments

<andybaker45> team 45 won in 98

<DadCF1279> 1997 - Toroid Terror

<schreiaj> cookie to whoever provides pictures of Andy in a beanie

<DadCF1279> 1998 - Ladder Logic

<thefro526> Andy, it's weird not to think of you on 45.

<tubatroopa> and then finalist in 99

<aspiece> with us

<tubatroopa> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0CDop_IwW8&list=PL519AA5963FE3E499&index=4&feature=plpp_video not a pic but andy in a beanie

<andybaker45> 1 win away from back to back

<tubatroopa> Team 45 misses Baker

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<schreiaj> http://d.pr/TMEW THere we go.

<aspiece> T3 + swerve = fail

<Brew1086> 6 wheel swerve, still brings back bad memories

<andybaker45> dunno... most complicated = 2001 from team 47

<Guest 11> http://frc-designs.com/html/drives.html

<Guest 11> http://frc-designs.com/html/Offseason.html

<schreiaj> what made it so complex Andy?

<thefro526> 2006 IRI

<thefro526> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_vIKB0GRVs

<andybaker45> each wheel was a tank tread, each wheel pivoted independently. 8 motors total

<schreiaj> o.o

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<thefro526> 2006 was best game

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<Stogi> back in Philly, glad Dr. Joe found his way onto the cast.

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<ahill1625> yeah that gets it hands down vs the 6wd swerve

<Travis_Covington> coopertition'

<Stogi> coopertition

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<Stogi> RC have you talked yet?

<andybaker45> and each wheel was a tank tread

<Travis_Covington> yes

<thefro526> Just going to leave this here http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/314571_10150311889922693_601157692_8416283_1245730692_n.jpg

<andybaker45> yes, first year

<andybaker45> or second

<Travis_Covington> no, 2000

<apalrd> first year for IFI was 2000

<tubatroopa> 2001 Diabolical Dynamics

<Travis_Covington> first year

<apalrd> but PBASIC

<andybaker45> Travis and I are just shaking our heads

<andybaker45> heheheh

<Travis_Covington> we agreed, 2000 

<Stogi> we're noobs

<Travis_Covington> haha

<apalrd> I think there were 64 bytes of variable space on that controller

<andybaker45> 1999 = Victor

<andybaker45> 2000 = IFI Controller

<Travis_Covington> I dont feel that old

<thefro526> 1999 = I was 8

<schreiaj> I stand corrected. (I started FRC in 2004, was going based on the stack of controllers in the closet)

<Leeland1126> Blaming software every time makes my heart sad 

<thefro526> man I feel young

<apalrd> 2004 was the first year for the PIC-based IFI system

<andybaker45> aha, yes

<Stogi> someone correct is on the cast please

<Stogi> incase not everyone reads the chat log

<Stogi> it*

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<Travis_Covington> IFI 2000 in PBasic, 2004 PIC

<Travis_Covington> yes, troughs

<andybaker45> 2000 was awesome

<ahill1625> 2006

<schreiaj> Andy/Travis, would one of you guys like to call in to correct the fact that the majority of EWCP is < 22 yrs old?

<DadCF1279> Talk about gearing....

<andybaker45> chain vs belt vs gear drive?

<Maxwell540> what about driect mech drive

<aspiece> Yes

<aspiece> YEs!

<Guest 16> aka mechanum vs 6wd

<thefro526> All of those questions will be answered soon

<apalrd> there's also slide and swerve

<Guest 11> 973 CAD: http://frc-designs.com/html/Offseason.html

<four0foured> mr. hill, what year did 44/ames stop competing? Just curious

<ahill1625> 97,98,99, existed for 3 years

<ahill1625> i've found random parts laying around from them

<Guest 31> heh, mr. hill, im bugging you about that 

<Guest 31> this is aren btw

<four0foured> thanks, fyi im from the marion team 967

<ahill1625> we may try getting that team number back next year

<four0foured> i heard, ha

<four0foured> its sweet having another iowa team

<aspiece> How about 2826?

<Leeland1126> Game necessitates it. Only reason.

<tubatroopa> coolness factor!!!

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<thefro526> Can someone give me a swerve someday

<thefro526> please?

<schreiaj> Coolness should NOT come into play in engineering decisions. imho

<Stogi> btw, Brandon Holley from 125 had to bail on the cast cause someone in the family is having a baby. He wouldve been qualified to talk about beltvschain

<apalrd> 16 drives swerve awesomely

<Guest 31> haha 16 goodness

<apalrd> but I've seen hardly any well-driven mecanums (they do exist, but are very rare)

<Travis_Covington> how do you pronounce that properly? can we get a consensus?

<Guest 31> mecanums aren't cool anyway...

<tubatroopa> IT was a joke. we tried meccanums and it didn't work

<thefro526> meh can um?

<GCentola1126> 2337?

<BrendanB> Doesn't matter how you pronounce it they still stink!

<schreiaj> mecanum - pronounced as "doesn't work"

<ahill1625> 488 had a great octocanum implementation

<Stogi> ^

<schreiaj> That they did

<Guest 31> they have their uses, but they limited

<andybaker45> mecanums and killough drives are good demo robots

<Guest 31> *they are

<Brew1086> I've never heard anyone say "that's so cool" about a robot as the robot is being pushed across the field

<Stogi> mecanum stinks if the team doesn't know how to drive

<IndySam> here comes the mecanum haters

<apalrd> 2337 is one of the best mecanum teams I have seen, most mecanums are NOT good.

<Guest 31> they're slow

<apalrd> there is stock code for mecanum

<aspiece> Too late!

<Stogi> not mecanum haters, just teams who dont use it well

<Travis_Covington> haha

<thefro526> http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/14988

<aspiece> No comment on 2010

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<schreiaj> :P

<Travis_Covington> can you guys talk about objective reasoning and design decisions when it comes to drivetrain selection?

<Stogi> KITBOT

<schreiaj> aspiece, I spent most of Troy District trying to rewire your robot

<Stogi> talk about how people need to build kitbots

<schreiaj> Travis, we'd love to in a later cast. Would you be interested in joining?

<schreiaj> Stogi, you missed that

<Stogi> aww man

<Stogi> stupid Philly traffic

<ahill1625> http://www.simbotics.org/files/pdf/drivetrain-design.pdf is a very very good presentation

<aspiece> 2337, 2826, 573 has nice mecanum designs. 2826 saw division finals.. Schriaj --> I spent most of Ann Arbor soing the same

<Stogi> 2826 has jump drive

<ahill1625> hearing from 2826's driver, they barely ever used the actual strafing capability

<tubatroopa> octacanums are nifty

<Travis_Covington> tensioning improvements, too

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<Travis_Covington> add to efficiency

<thefro526> No pure Mecanum will ever make Einstein.

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<Leeland1126> 51?

<ahill1625> until the GDC makes a game where robots never touch each other

<Guest 31> i wouldn't say they won't ever, but they haven't ever... so yeah

<aspiece> I understand thefro526

<Guest 31> 51 was slide

<Stogi> Yeah, Adam's and RC's stuff can be made on a manual mill

<Leeland1126> Hmm... Memory must be fuzzy then =/

<Guest 16> does anyone else hear that beeping?

<Guest 31> yes

<Guest 29> I do

<Travis_Covington> yes

<tubatroopa> I do

<GCentola1126> yes

<Guest 14> yea

<DomenicR> yes

<Baselthe2nd> Unfortunately

<thefro526> I think it's Adam

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<Guest 31> lol

<tubatroopa> GRR (pun intended)

<schreiaj> confirming 51 was slide. The cross wheel was actuated down with a gas shock

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<Guest 31> yep

<schreiaj> there is a beeping. Dunno what's causing it

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<Guest 16> ...what?

<Leeland1126> That's actually pretty ingenious.

<Guest 31> drop down ball caster or omni wheel at one end

<Guest 31> cool

<tubatroopa> ingenious

<BrendanB> t boning is the best part of 6wd

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<schreiaj> Dustin, would you be willing to draw said diagram and get it to me so I can post it on our website?

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<Bryan33> kind of reminds me of 148 this year.

<Guest 16> ^

<Bryan33> With the omnis in the middle they only had traction when they wanted

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<thefro526> Andrew, I'll do it at work

<Maxwell540> which would you sujest 6wd or omni drive?

<thefro526> tomorrow

<schreiaj> Thanks Dustin

<thefro526> 6WD IS BEST DRIVE ALWAYS

<andybaker45> tubatroopa did that to 111 at Midwest regional and scared the bejeezus out of them (strong t-bone)

<aspiece> Direct drive and depends on distance

<apalrd> chain allows a final stage of drive reduction without machining gears

<apalrd> my opinion

<schreiaj> Maxwell, I would suggest the minimal viable system that meets your needs

<BrendanB> 6wd unless you are against me then you can use omni! 

<aspiece> always go with chain

<Guest 16> Oh!!! How do you tension your chain!

<Guest 16> ?*

<Guest 32> tensioning woes?

<Maxwell540> what about direct drive what are your thaughts

<Stogi> I think RC and Adam and Travis should talk about tensioning if Travis wants to call in

<Guest 16> ^yes

<Stogi> WCD teams always seem to know the best ways to judge tension

<aspiece> direct drive is key if driving all four wheels

<schreiaj> why?

<aspiece> That would be a great question for Mr. Smith but he always goes that way

<andybaker45> 234 did a study a while back, proving that belts are more efficient

<andybaker45> I think they put a white paper up on CD

<Stogi> yup its somewhere

<Travis_Covington> yeah, that was a very specific chain case though, too

<schreiaj> yes it is, give me a second to find it

<aspiece> That would be very interesting to read.

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<schreiaj> http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2246

<aspiece> Our CNC takes forever to make the pulleys

<Travis_Covington> no double since 2007

<aspiece>  Thanks schreiaj

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<thefro526> 816 was the #6 on archi in 2008 with a 6WD KB and #6 on Curie in 2009 with a 6WD KB

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<aspiece> We stick with #25 chain for a while now without any issues

<Stogi> For anyone who doesn't know how to calculate what gearing they need, go check out JVN's calculator and also our own calculator on the EWCP website

<Stogi> Andrew has the link to it if anyone wants

<schreiaj> http://ewcp.org/calculators/gearbox/single/

<schreiaj> If you have any suggestions for what needs to be added to that let me know

<Maxwell540> what do you think about a can jaguar system to drive the robot?

<Guest 16> if you take a look in the 2007 behind the design book they have a few pages on that drive

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<andybaker45> yes, definitely, we have a demo bot at AM which uses this new WormBox, and it leaves the middle of the robot WIIIIDDDEEE open

<schreiaj> Max, that's getting into controls. See Dr Joe's discussion on CD for that. My experience with CAN was not good and I would not suggest it

<Guest 16> PLEASE

<Stogi> RC Adam and Travis please

<aspiece> Pull hard!

<Travis_Covington> 233 runs without

<Travis_Covington> 25 chain

<Guest 16> oh and we have used CAN the last couple years and have loved it

<Stogi> talk abotu dead spacing?

<Stogi> about*

<Stogi> how to dead space chain

<apalrd> Adjust the wheel axle = adjust chain length

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<thefro526> Akash, I've got it

<Guest 16> do the blocks slide at all?

<Guest 31> the cam is not backdrivable

<Stogi> blocks clamp hard between the plates

<Guest 31> cam/bolt/whatever mechanism you design

<Guest 16> ok cool

<Stogi> i'll throw up a quick bolt tensioner sometime on the EWCP site that i got from help from Adam

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<Stogi> its thrown into a bearing block in 2x1 tube

<Guest 31> the other thing with chain is tensioning becomes less crucial if you have 180 degrees of wrap on every sprocket

<schreiaj> Send it my way, I'll add all this to the DT cast post

<Guest 31> you still need to tension it some

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<Guest 31> but you have more room for error

<Guest 31> chain length! its cool

<Stogi> wait for real? i dont think ive seen that white paper

<schreiaj> http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/1598

<thefro526> Andrew, do we time out at 10:30?

<Stogi> sweet

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<schreiaj> I dont think so, maybe we do

<andybaker45> there are websites for this also... google "Chain length calculator"

<Stogi> andrew can you reset it to end later?

<Guest 31> title: Dr Joe's Chain Path Visualizer

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<schreiaj> Stogi, we should be good

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<Maxwell540> can drive

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<Guest 31> kitbot on steroids

<apalrd> drop center 6wd kitbot

<Leeland1126> Machining capabilities?

<schreiaj> Hand tools

<DadCF1279> 6wd unless the game is on regolith

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<aspiece> Kit bot

<Guest 31> perhaps shifting if you have money, but thats more work too

<Stogi> Leeland at that point it doesnt matter unless you're Aren Hill

<Stogi> unless you're Aren Hill, you will always make 6wd

<ahill1625> dang it akash

<Stogi> <3

<thefro526> 6WD SWERVE?





GOOD IDEA ALWAYS

<Leeland1126> Haha I just wanted to know! Kitbot on Steroids. Definitely.

<thefro526> <3

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<avanboekel> stop idolizing the kitbot! there is a reason that the great teams dont use it!

<tubatroopa> Maybe someone should redo the ball drive

<Guest 31> see 973

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<schreiaj> avan, the issue is that 95% of us won't be those great teams

<Stogi> idolizing? if you dont like teh c channel, replace it with tube of your own if you want

<aspiece> T3 2010!

<Guest 31> aren hill...

<Stogi> but the point is that it works

<Guest 31> he will

<schreiaj> Given my resources doing a custom chassis would be worse than retarded

<aspiece> Enough said

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<samb28000> How about Dr. Joe's involvement in the development of Dewalts and NBD's?

<thefro526> DID AREN JUST SAY HE HAS A SANE DRIVE?

<andybaker45> this will be my 15th year as an FRC mentor, and it will most likely be my 15th year to not do a swerve drive

<schreiaj> If your robot doesnt move your team won't want to compete

<Maxwell540> how long do you think it takes to build, test, and get used to Swerve Drive?

<Stogi> lol Dr. Joe and Aren will have swerves, i'll have kitbot on steroids

<andybaker45> 6 weeks

<avanboekel> i agree, but they never will be great unless they try to create something better

<Guest 31> reliability is number 1

<Guest 16> andy what about the ball drive?

<Stogi> Baker will have a Transformer

<tubatroopa> Baker will be the robot duh

<thefro526> I heard that Baker built a hovercraft\

<IndySam> no problem

<Guest 16> HOVER SWERVE

<apalrd> control system is far too complex for what it does

<Stogi> According to Jared, connection time is better

<Stogi> with the new system

<thefro526> Akash, it's better

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<Baselthe2nd> Hit 10:31, still going.

<thefro526> not IFI good

<Stogi> Jared from 341 btw

<avanboekel> i will agree that a custom chassis isn't for everyone, but the kitbot isn't for 95% of teams

<Guest 31> how are we using an fpga? or any of the features of IP and 802.11?

<DadCF1279> Joe - Don't use Java rookie year.......

<schreiaj> avan, why not?

<Stogi> ^ why not?

<Stogi> 1279 why not Java?

<Guest 29> we use java without problem

<Guest 31> well banebots are a different issue...

<schreiaj> so did T3

<MarcS> 973 lost Los angeles because of bane bots.

<Guest 31> heh no

<aspiece> We dodn't have any issues at all with the banebots

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<apalrd> 550 = almost as much power

<Guest 31> but significantly smaller

<Guest 31> so for more intermittent duty

<Bryan33> we ran 2 550s. It worked great

<apalrd> ~250w vs ~260w for 550 vs 775

<Bryan33> On our elevator

<aspiece> I can't remember the model but I remember it was the highest number model number

<Guest 29> will banebots be able to supply parts on time this year? any guesses?

<aspiece> Our entire arm system was powered by them using belts

<schreiaj> BB has supplied parts for many years

<Travis_Covington> 254 had zero issues with the 775s

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<Guest 31> that is a rule

<Travis_Covington> we had 20 of them or more

<Stogi> someone on here asked abotu Jags in drives

<Guest 31> its just a dmm check...

<Stogi> anyone want to hit that one

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<Stogi> i know its a no Jags from most of the people in the cast

<tubatroopa> 45 didn't have BB issues...besides just waiting for them to come in

<avanboekel>  schreiaj, because in order for teams to become great, they need to try and model themselves off of the great teams, and that includes a custom chassis

<Baselthe2nd> Was it a particular manufacturer who made the defective 775s? Explains how many teams had no issues while others had many.

<Stogi> i know we wont be using Jags int he drive

<Guest 31> linear response

<schreiaj> avan, what team are you from?

<Stogi> unless something changes in the new model

<tubatroopa> 45 uses jags for drive

<samb28000> Why's that Stogi?^

<schreiaj> (just so I know where you are coming from)

<avanboekel>  schreiaj, i'm just trying to say that there is a reason that the great teams use custom frames

<Stogi> Samb its just the history

<avanboekel> and im from 2338 gear it forward

<Stogi> until i know its as reliable as a Vic

<schreiaj> because they have the resources and experience to do better than the KoP frame

<Stogi> it wont be on a drive system

<IndySam> We have never had a blag jag fail in two years.

<samb28000> solid reason right there, if you've had good experience with vics

<Guest 31> heh sounds like us

<Stogi> plus smaller footprint

<Guest 31> we failed vics cuz our electronics people dropped bolts inside

<Stogi> and the reset Adam is currently tlaking about

<ahill1625> companies typically get product into the loop in large seperate bulk runs, meaning depending when you get them you might get some from a good batch

<ahill1625> or bad

<apalrd> firmware of Jaguar reads current sensor then software cuts output of Jaguar

<samb28000> We're considering switching from jags to vics, hopefully eliminating some control and com issues. vics are really sounding better

<DadCF1279> We had Jag trouble lunacy - static electricity from the wheels. Didn't blow any in 2010 or 2011.

<apalrd> We routinely reset the Jaguar on our Lunacy shooter after ~5mins running

<Stogi> hey since the call didn't time out, can we talk about issues teams face with the kitbot? and common work arounds

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<Guest 31> stall is 133A

<schreiaj> if everyone is up for it

<Guest 31> or something like that

<Stogi> for example: building up fromt he kitbot used to be a pain

<Stogi> but andy has a new bracket now

<Stogi> also things like welding kitbot

<Guest 31> there is new firmware, but ive heard no significant changes

<apalrd> the FIRST CAN one is not open-source

<avanboekel>  schreiaj, I believe that if a team has the resources and experience to create a custom drive train, then they should

<Stogi> avan- sometimes having resources doesnt mean you should do something

<Baselthe2nd> @avan: The question is if those resources are better spent elsewhere

<Stogi> ^

<Stogi> exactly

<samb28000> if something will work without wasting time and effort on it, then you shouldn't.^

<avanboekel>  schreiaj, i do agree with you as far as gearboxes (because the toughbox is great)

<schreiaj> And I believe that 90% of teams can't do better based on my experience. in 10 yrs I've seen too many teams with a custom DT never do anything else

<andybaker45> well, Mark made those, and Brandon

<Stogi> I like the thought of welding a kitbot

<DadCF1279> We like to rivet the kitbot, saves weight.

<Stogi> or that^

<Stogi> we'll also be throwing 1x1 tubing in there to stiffen it up

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<Stogi> yup

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<Stogi> 121/78 used to be the bosses of simplified FRC robots

<Stogi> 330's lathe is the best

<thefro526> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvK-e-13dK0

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<Stogi> Did you guys talk about best materials other than the kit chassis to build a chassis from?

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<Stogi> 2x1 tubing

<Stogi> stuff like that

<Stogi> tubing!

<IndySam> wood!

<samb28000> another 330 lathe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwDFD-TjDFU

<aspiece> tubing

<Stogi> use all the tubing

<Travis_Covington> 4130, 4340

<andybaker45> 4140 steel

<Stogi> 4340

<Stogi> 7075 you mean?

<andybaker45> agreed

<Travis_Covington> yes, design, limiting stress risers

<andybaker45> keyways = bad, hex = good

<Stogi> also- teams who still use 1/4" plate- what's up with that? 1/4" is like old school New England FRC stuff and just seems so heavy

<schreiaj> Aren, broken drive = death and missed einstein 

<Stogi> pocketing doesnt seem worth it after a certain point, just use tube

<ahill1625> sorry schreibs

<ahill1625> 1/4" plate+waterjet = quite nice

<schreiaj> depends on your capabilities akash

<Brew1086> keyway kept us from Einstien

<schreiaj> Like Aren said, if you have a waterjet and no mill everything looks like it should be plate

<Stogi> USE HEX

<Brew1086> well that and 6 wheel swerve

<Travis_Covington> broach, rotary or otherwise

<ahill1625> :P you cheesy

<Bryan33> Its true, we shattered several keys in our drivetrain last year.

<andybaker45> we should buy and sell broaches.

<andybaker45> heh

<ahill1625> yes andy, you should

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<aspiece> yes Andy you should

<avanboekel>  schreiaj, what team are you from?

<ahill1625> he's with 79 in florida

<schreiaj> Currently 79 but formerly 397/3450

<avanboekel> k

<aspiece> Couldn't take another build season in the snow

<schreiaj> My exp was all with 397 which was an inner city team with some hand tools and lost all their engineering mentors due to Delphi closing their shop

<schreiaj> and no spiece, couldn't find a job in MI that wasn't automotive

<aspiece> LOL. just messing with yah

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<Travis_Covington> brittle!

<aspiece> I can't wait to see your tan in St. Louis!

<Travis_Covington> no shock load capability

<schreiaj> Outside? Dawg I'm a programmer. I work in a closed room

<aspiece> LOL! Good Point

<Stogi> any other topics?

<Stogi> sounds like you guys are done

<Travis_Covington> next cast?

<andybaker45> good show, guys

<schreiaj> uh one sec

<Stogi> next cast- two weeks?

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<aspiece> Thank you all for the insight, guys. Us rookie team leaders need every insight we can get

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<avanboekel> Thanks guys, was a great cast! I enjoyed the discussion.

<Stogi> how do you feel about bumpers?

<Stogi> they're gross

<schreiaj> Two weeks. We'll be working on our mini casts detailing specific drive trains (skid, crab, mecanum, kiwi, omni, slide, hybrid) over the next couple we

<schreiaj> *weeks

<tubatroopa> sweet

<Stogi> Travis did you want to come in for a special cast on WCD?

<compwiztobe> 2 cim drivetrain with cvts!

<avanboekel> sounds good, cant wait!

<aspiece> Good. Looking forward to it. Is there an email list to get in?

<Travis_Covington> if you need someone

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<Stogi> i think it would be a cool cast, might be close to kickoff though

<Baselthe2nd> Excellent cast. Thanks for answering my questions, EWCP and all.

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<Stogi> one cast we want to do is "Kickoff: What do?"

<schreiaj> Travis, we'd love to have you join in sometime. Shoot one us an email (or just hit up cast@ewcp.org ) and we'll work something out

<thefro526> Agreed Amdrew

<compwiztobe> 1114, 2056 at IRI, that was pretty epic

<Brew1086> ^yes^

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<compwiztobe> yeah if you can get the practice, the extra manufacturing/assembly for shifting is not that much and worth it

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<Travis_Covington> speed is everything

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<MarcS> or 22 tetras...

<rccc1323> sorry guys dead phone. Driving.

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<Baselthe2nd> It's just as much juking as much as getting away when there's an opening, I think..

<Stogi> peace guys we'll have to parse the other details out with specific teams

<schreiaj> kk

<compwiztobe> haha

<tubatroopa> who souldn't

<Meredith16> how much would you pay?

<tubatroopa> *wouldn't

<thefro526> Enough

<thefro526> Not sure how much I can afford

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<Meredith16> I'm looking at an $18,000 bill to FIRST...

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<Stogi> haha

<jsneer> lol

<Travis_Covington> literally

<Stogi> Thanks to the guys who were able to join the cast. Sorry i rounded you up but didnt join

<Stogi> stupid college

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