[BB] The wooden beams have started creaking
 

http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2011...-creaking.html

Anyone do the calculations for how much each field weighs yet this season? :D

Re: [BB] The wooden beams have started creaking
 

Of note: Put your team number on your cart!

Blog text:

The wooden beams have started creaking



Good Afternoon Teams,

The tidal wave of field and game elements is on its way. Here at 200 Bedford Street we’ve been taking delivery of materials needed for the 2012 field for weeks now and expect a truck (or more) a day every day through Thanksgiving. Space is getting a little tight.

This is going to be a heavy field to set up when all is said and done. Our pallet jacks can handle up to 5,000lbs in a single load and the engineering staff tell me we’ve been pushing the jacks to their limit recently. At the moment we have an estimated 8,000lbs of polycarbonate sheets, four 1,000lb pallets of game specific steel elements, a pallet of aluminum, three 1,500lb pallets of a game specific item plus a fourth 1,000lb pallet of a different game specific item, two full pallets of gaffers tape, an entire pallet of carpet tape and multiple pallets of game pieces. None of which takes into account the existing field components we will be bolting, zip tying and otherwise attaching these items onto or the elements that have not been delivered yet.

The Kit of Parts is being put together at our warehouse which means truckloads of components are arriving there daily as well. Staff and volunteers are starting to pre-kit smaller items (putting separate elements into little plastic bags) ready to put those bags into larger containers and planning the physical layout of elements inside those larger containers. Back at 200 Bedford Street, Procurement is scheduling deliveries to local Kickoffs and preparing truck routes for competition events.

It’s never dull around here.

In other news:

The next Senior Mentor call will be FRC Control System/Driver’s Station Beta Test Observations with our very own Kevin O’Connor from the first floor. Join him November 21st at 7PM ET by calling 1-866-951-1151 and using conference room # 9533018

All teams (with the exception of teams in Israel who are only attending the Israel Regional) will be expected to Bag and Tag their robot this year.
•Section 5.5 of the Administrative Manual (now available on our website) allows teams to bag bumpers separately from the robot if it is more convenient for teams to transport their robot that way. Be aware, the bag with the bumper and the bag with the robot must both be sealed with a tag and logged independently.
•If you haven’t already done so, be sure to read the Bag & Tag FAQ and decide how you plan to proceed before the deadline for exemption requests passes on December 2nd.
Speaking of Manual sections, Section 4.2.2 covers robot carts. Please be sure to clearly label your robot cart with your team number. There is no defined way to do this, we just want to make sure field personnel can identify what cart belongs to which team so we can keep things flowing smoothly on the field.

52 days until Kickoff
See you then!

Re: [BB] The wooden beams have started creaking
 

A lot can be derived from this.

Hmmm.

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YESSSSSSSS! Good bye, too-small doors!

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I wonder how teams staying within Israel are going to handle what used to be "robot ship day", since they aren't required to Bag their robots.

Total lbs - per field - per Alliance
8000 ------ 421 ------ 211 ----- polycarb
4000 ------ 211 ------ 105 ----- steel elements
4500 ------ 237 ------ 118 ----- game specific
1000 ------- 53 ------- 26 ----- game specific

(19) fields (http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2011/09/good-news.html)

Re: [BB] The wooden beams have started creaking
 

Is polycarbonate always used on the fields (if so, for what?)?

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The clear plastic found in the alliance stations and field walls. Also known as Lexan. In 2008 it was in the divider wall; in 2010 it was also part of the return chute for the soccer balls.

By counting the number of events in a given week.

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Oh okay, thanks. That's what I was thinking, but wasn't exactly sure.

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He mentions gaffers tape along with the carpet tape. Does this mean line trackers are coming back?

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Keep in mind that MAR and FiM build their own fields; this may not be accounted for in the quantities listed by Bill.

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I thought that too, but then I looked at the list of events. I don't see enough simultaneous "conventional" regionals. The district competitions have to be included.

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I think it is getting safe to say it isn't a water game. He mentions carpet tape.

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We can assume that since there is Carpet tape, then regolith will probably not be part of this year's field.

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I don't know about that...

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Right, but it still doesn't answer the question as to whether the quantities of materials listed by Bill should be divided by 19, by 15, or something else.

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Lunacy had carpet. It was exposed around the borders of the field, as the FRP "regolith" didn't extend to the edges.

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Has no one seen the "Tidal Wave" in the third line? There's a stormy undercurrent in these posts... Perhaps one of the mysterious pallets contains large fans that blow around lightweight (but hopefully not very delicate) game pieces. Or it's a water game!

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Divide by 42... or 0... Ah crap that didn't help any, we still have too many choices.

Oh well, guess I'll know in January.

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Hmm, that's a ratio of 4lb game specific steel elements : 4.5lb game item one : 1lb game item two.

Does that mean that the amount of the first game item is going to weigh more than the steel elements? 0.o ::rtm::

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If memory serves me correctly, the field was carpeted then regolith was placed over it. That's why the regolith was 'squishy' when walked on.

Come on GDC, bring back regolith!

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The 19 fields number comes from Bill's Blog on September 15th, where he states that, "[w]e’re building two additional competition fields this year bringing the total number of fields on the road to 19..."

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Not necessarily, First Game Item could be a large quantity of something light, ie. A LOT of tennis balls, soccer balls, Overdrive balls

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The Israel and Hawaii fields do not also travel to mainland events. Last year, FIRST kept one field in a warehouse in the middle of the country as a contingency. Also, the Einstein field is not used previously. So, there's 4 fields needed in addition to the most simultaneous regionals.

On the other hand, the 17 fields that they had last year included the two FIM fields.

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26 lbs alone could equal 4421 ping pong balls (find the red one...).

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Or about 80 poof balls :)

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Keep in mind he specified the number of pallets used... Since pallets have a fairly standard size, and you can only stack things so high before it gets too dangerous to move the pallet, you could conceivably determine a total volume measurement for the game items. Combine that with the weight, and you can probably start to remove a lot of lighter-weight items from consideration.

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I knew about the carpet, but it seems reasonible that if they bought carpet tape then it would be used to cover mass amounts of carpet, not just the border of the field. As I see it, they wouldn't order an entire palette of carpet tape to just cover the border of the field.

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But arguably, if we determined total volume, we'd still need to be wary, because let's say the game pieces are something like Tetras, and come in pieces.

I say we just organize a top-secret raid into FIRST HQ one night.

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You've never put together an FRC field have you? It takes a lot of tape to cover even the border. It is also used to patch the field and secure down any errant sections of carpet. Basically, if it is carpet and needs to be secured at all you use a crap ton of tape.

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Carpet tape is used to hold the two large pieces of carpet together, goes underneath the carpet at the seam.

Gaffers tape is used to hold the carpet down (around the perimeter) and also for all the field markings (driver stations, lanes, etc...). It is all the visible tape.

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All this discussion of pallets and weight, and this important item isn't even noted (except in Taylor's introduction).

Koko Ed, lead the rejoicing!

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Gaffers Tape = Lanes = g33s for everybody!

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Suspect the steel elements are less likely to break than the game-specific items. Hopefully, they're giving each field plenty of replacements if they're poppable inflatable or crushable.

Yay for robot carts!

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I wonder how much we could glean from their trash? hmmmm :rolleyes:

Ben and Jerry's cups, KK boxes, a large cRIO, a box of tetrix motors, and assorted popped play balls. Yep all junk.

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You forgot the Haagen-Dazs.

Is the name of the blogpost a hint in itself?

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*cry*

I was trying to do some math on this, knowing what I do know about the tape, but I can't really be so sure about so many variables that trying to determine how many tapes there are to spread across each event and off season event hurt my brain.

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The carpet tape is also used to repair holes that robots inflict upon the carpet. By the end of Archimedes in 2010 almost a fourth of the floor had tape on it because robots are surprisingly good at tearing through it.

I am going to go ahead and say I don't think its a water game. We are Beta Testing the Kinect and somehow I don't think you could do those gestures very well while submerged in water..

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That's it! The humans are in the water, the robots are on the field. Solves all (well...) the electronics problems. Start recruiting on your swim team, folks!

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Perfect timing! 256 was going to make a new cart this year anyways, so we now might as well beef it up with our team name, number, etc, and make it so that the robot doesn't fall off every time we turn! :p

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Doubt they are ever hints. They are so abstract that even if you get some things you'll never have an idea of what to build or what the objects are. They can see how much we run with one little word they put in a sentence and I bet they have a ton of laughs seeing us yell water game any time they make a reference to a storm.

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Although there have been quite a few references to water games lately. Could be that they are just manipulating us, but someone brought up elsewhere this is the 100 year anniversary of the Titanic, so that could possibly explain water references. Additionally, "the wooden beams have started creaking" could references a sinking ship. Also, the Titanic was a disaster, which kind of relates this to a "2012 end of the world theme." Not saying that we can figure anything out about the game from this, just suggesting ideas.

Also, since they know we always guess water game, it would be ironic to use a clue that actually did describe a water game because nobody would take it seriously. Of course there could be multiple levels of reverse psychology here, so I will stop speculating now.

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While I doubt this year really will be a "water game", your speculation on the Titanic seems very accurate, so I wouldn't be surprised if that was the actual game! Now.... What could that mean for an FRC game??? ;)

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Not that it particularly matters, but that's not quite accurate.

Carpet tape is solely used for attaching two pieces of carpet together. It contains an unmelted glue which is melted by a heated iron and then the two seams are pressed down on top of it.

Gaffers tape (which you are referring to) is used to patch holes in the carpet, lay down lines on the field, etc.

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We had loComotion by Little Eva down pretty well last year...

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I think its funny that so many people are actually taking the water theme literally. It's entirely possible that it could be a water game and yet have not a drop of water on the field.

2009 was a moon based game where robots drove over "Regolith", a very flat and slippery material(although actual Regolith is made up of loose dust, soil, and rock) on a field called "The Crater".

Maybe next years game uses "Water", a dry slippery material(similar to "Regolith"), on a field called "The Ocean".
While I'm at it, the game piece could be a sinking ship(Titanic's 100th Year anniversary), or several classic video game items(Atari's 40th and Nentindo's 20th anniversary). That's my first guess for the next season.

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A water game without the water... Titanic is very heavy and made out of steel. Relates to all the hints so far and could easily be made into a game with the field materials. Very interesting indeed.

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And you do realize that you just proved his point, don't you?

We had "Locomotion" dialed in pretty well. What we didn't know was what that word meant in relation to anything else. It's been that way for every single hint we've ever had--we've gotten some aspect of it, but never all of it.

Also, that was an official hint, in the form of a picture; anything read in Bill's Blog is not an official hint unless he specifically says it's an official hint.

For reference, this is the progression of official hints for a while back, by game year. If I included unofficial "hints", you'd be reading until Kickoff 2013.

2011: Picture of Little Eva with a column. Traced to be "Locomotion", which was very close to the game name, "LogoMotion". (Trying to remember the second hint...)

2010: 2x CAD of field areas/elements. The first led to speculation of a track for something to roll down; the second led to (incorrect) speculation of a target (mis-interpreted piece of the picture) and (semi-correct) speculation of an extra gate and open space.

2009: Riddle from Bill, which when traced, led to ice (via Zamboni; referred to the regolith), the game object's maker, towing a trailer, and something else. All accurate, but we never thought we'd have a lunar theme and be scoring in towed trailers...

2008: IR receiver board (#1), much confusion (resolved to be a robot part). GPS coordinate (#2), Tortoise and Hare sculpture in Boston (race).
"Vets hurdling FIRST tetras", anagram of the decryption password without punctuation.

2007: Picture clue showing a game object on a scoring peg. Much speculation on the number 5, which was in the middle, but the real clue was around it. Someone did come up with the answer.

2006: Riddle in a "circular" shape. Someone got that it led to "Just Shoot Me", which was part of the game, but what was "me" and what about all this nonsense about 5 'bots, pasta, a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show (see reference above) and seeing Montana's green heights (lighted CMUCam vision target above the goal, but prompted speculation about both the state and the quarterback)

2005: Riddle involving amethyst and the only 2 players to make an unassisted triple play in major league baseball, leading to the game name, Triple Play.

2004: Line from Led Zeppelin's "Stairway to Heaven". There were stairs on the field.

2003: The equation of a parabola. The scoring equation.

Re: [BB] The wooden beams have started creaking
 

Just gonna put it out there that it is probably not going to be a game referencing the Titanic, as that was one of the largest accidents/humanitarian disasters of all time.

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If the game gets heavier, our wallets get lighter.

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Not if youre building a practice field :(

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So, about this Titanic game. It just doesn't seem to fit the profile of an FRC game. The only anniversary-themed game that I can think of is Lunacy, for the 40-year anniversary of the moon landing. Which is a very sciencey event, unlike the catastrophic sinking of the Titanic.

The other thing is that we have gotten water game hints in the past. EricH forgot to mention in his list that in 2009 we also got a picture of a red herring and a luna fish, which pointed towards the name of the game. But everyone was thinking water game.

One thing we haven't had in a while is moving field elements like seesaws. I think we should expect them, based on the massive amount of field parts coming in.

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The 2nd hint last year was the FIRST logo.

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Not only that, but with the re-release of the movie, we've got another hint.















The 2012 game will be three-dimensional.

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Just for the record- off-season events do not get tape with the field. We have to buy all of the tape ourselves that we use for both the field, and taping out the queuing areas, etc.

The carpet tape can be a little pricey, but is used only to connect the two pieces of carpet together.

Gaffers tape on the other hand is heavily all over the field and costs a decent amount per roll (~$25 if i remember correctly). We spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars just on tape every year when we host the Beantown Blitz.

-Brando

Re: [BB] The wooden beams have started creaking
 

One thing that gets the wooden beams creaking at my house is when somebody climbs the stairs. We haven't had stairs lately....could be time!.

BTW, I thought the primary engineering "achievment" re: the Titanic was welded steel compartments that would isolate leakage from a hull breach. Very little wood in that ship...

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To keep the water in the tanks :)

Hint: Tidal Wave .....

Hint: Keep things Flowing...

Maybe use the Kinect to detect the human players "swimming"...

Just saying...

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Is that an SI unit?

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I believe it's an Imperial unit. The SI version would be 'crap tonne'.

Back on topic, does anyone know how much Gaffers tape is on one pallet? I couldn't imagine them stacking the rolls taller than 4 feet or so... From there it'd be pretty easy to figure out how many rolls, then how many feet, then how many feet per field and so on.

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Depends on the width of the tape. I've seen as small as 1/2" and as large as 8". IIRC FRC usually uses 2" or 3".

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Well, in my experience, pallets are typically 4x4, stacked ~4-5ft high.

From that, and the per-pallet weights, we could approximate material density, which could give us some insight into what materials the "game-specific" stuff is.

8000 lbs of 1/4" polycarb is 472.3m^2, assuming I did the math correctly. (based on 1.21g/cm^3).

27ft x 1m of polycarb for the alliance walls, times 2 alliances per field times 19 fields is 312.7248m^2, leaves 159.5752m^2 of polycarb.

18" x 54ft sidewalls *2, * 19 = 285.9538m^2 of polycarb. This means that its either not all 1/4" polycarb (anybody know what thickness the walls have been in past?), or I screwed up the math somewhere.

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Rolling Stones 50th Anniversary 2012
Charles Dickens 200th birthday 7 February 1812
Gustav Klimt, one of Austria's greatest ever painters, would have celebrated his 150th birthday in 2012.
Paramount's 100th Anniversary In 2012

http://www.ideas4writers.co.uk/date-a-base.htm
Mars Science Laboratory and Curiosity rover are scheduled to land on Mars

just a few 2012 anniversary dates.:D

the Mayflowers cracked main beam was repaired using a “great iron screw,” which helped raise the beam back into place so the ship could continue.

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Although the GDC must get a huge kick out of us deciphering the game hints, personally I just wish they would release one for this year already.

Thinking about what they could possibly mean is pretty fun and it helps relieve the fact that we still have more than a month before we get to know.:ahh:
The season is just approaching way too slow. :(

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The driver station polycarbonate is at least 3/8" thick.

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I too worry about the heavier these "components" are, the lighter our wallets will be. I hate spending up to $1000 each year on components that just get thrown away a few months later.

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I don't think theres much useful information in the tape. Often there are several rolls on hand for extra after the field is setup. You may also only use a portion of a roll, etc. With all these variables considered, I don't think you'd be able to pin down any useful information regarding tape on the field.

If we had last years # of tape rolls we would be able to infer some relationship of more/less tape as a basis of more/less lines on the field. However, we don't have that.

The amount of PC is what jumps out to me thus far.

-Brando

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Now you've done it.

1) I remember hearing about that screw being from a printing press. We get to write our own rules and publish them--with the robots!

2) Mayflower=ship. Ships sail on the ocean, which is made of salt water. Salt Water Game!

If you can't tell, I'm not being serious right now.

Re: [BB] The wooden beams have started creaking
 

You're right, the amount of gaffers tape wouldn't tell us much, it was just something that popped into my mind.

Though, I would go out on a limb and say that 2011 used MUCH more tape than any game in recent memory, excluding breakaway?

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Does anyone know how much some other games weighed in at? IE First Frenzy Raising the Bar or the ramps in 2006...It sounds like Bill is talking about something much bigger than what we have seen in the last several years...

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Look at Bill's choice of words.

4x 1000lb pallets of game specific steel elements
3x 1500lb pallets of a game specific item + 1x 1000lb pallet of a different game specific item.
<multiple> pallets of game pieces

That means these heavy pallets are not the game PIECES, and there's some distinction between steel elements, and 'item'-s of which there are at least 2 unique things.

Based on the numbers, the 1500lb pallets could be a team specific item, and the 1000lb pallet could be an alliance specific item, assuming the same itemcount per pallet, which I'm fully aware is a totally unfair assumption.

4000lb of game-specific steel elements is likely to be some kind of field element. 4000/19 = 210 lbs/field. Its interesting that he specified the material as steel, since in years past, most of the field components have been aluminum. I would think that this is likely one central field element (a la 2004), or possibly 2 end-zone (a la 2006 ramps) elements, based on the weight, since anything much lighter than that is likely to be easily shoved by 150lb robots.

I'm not sure what to make of the term 'item'. We've had FIELD ELEMENTS, and GAME PIECES before, but 'item' seems to imply that its not part of the FIELD, but also not a GAME PIECE, and its not a KOP part, because those are being assembled in a separate facility.

Another thought:

Does this line mean that the 8000lbs of polycarb is NOT part of the ARENA which remains the same year-to-year (the alliance stations + the sidewalls + carpet)? If so, that could suggest up to 25m^2 of additional 1/4" polycarb on each field.

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"Does this line mean that the 8000lbs of polycarb is NOT part of the ARENA which remains the same year-to-year (the alliance stations + the sidewalls + carpet)? If so, that could suggest up to 25m^2 of additional 1/4" polycarb on each field."

That is a very good catch. The reason for polycarb is that it is see through. So either the crowd can see or the drivers can see...

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Given the state of the driver station polycarb after a full season of competition (as we saw at Ramp Riot), I wouldn't be surprised if they need to replace it every year.

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Speaking of Manual sections, Section 4.2.2 covers robot carts. Please be sure to clearly label your robot cart with your team number. There is no defined way to do this, we just want to make sure field personnel can identify what cart belongs to which team so we can keep things flowing smoothly on the field.

This above statement seems like the biggest hint in the blog. Means that the field may be dangerous for student to enter/be part of and field crew will the the ones having to return robots. I am thinking some kind of elevated field elements.

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I know you discounted it being for the KoP, and I can't argue with your logic... but there are a couple of facts that could argue that the items are part of the KoP:

• There are somewhere around 1600 FRC teams registered for a single event - or at least, there were a month ago. The number may have gone up, who knows. (http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2011...-my-inbox.html)
• A Kinect (which we know we're getting in the KoP) weighs about 3 lbs. I couldn't find stats for it by itself, but bundled with a game Amazon pegs it at 3.1 lbs (http://www.amazon.com/Kinect-Sensor-.../dp/B002BSA298)
• If you do the volume measurements based on the dimensions Amazon provides, 1600 Kinects could fit into 3 crates, if those crates are 4x4x8 (or maybe a bit wider and shorter). That sounds reasonable to me.

Of course, given how the paragraph is worded, it sounds like the "items" are something that stays with the field. But the coincidence here is hard to ignore!

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I'm betting they either replace it in total, or certainly replace the most worn pieces

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Well for field reset in the past we have had the problem that people off load their robot to the field and then leave their cart in the middle of the queing zone. Most carts do not have any team markings so the volunteers are left to ask around to find out whose cart it is. That or we move it ourselves (often, it seems, to an area that the team is unhappy about even though it was them who didnt move their car tin the first place..but enough rant) I wouldn't be surprised if a volunteer suggested this rule as common practice and FIRST decided to adopt it.

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One time I kicked a left-behind cart under the drape covering the judges table. The team didn't know where their cart went. ;)

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The steel and Lexan got me thinking... which may be a bad thing... Something just didn't quite sit right with me about this hint and the heavy field. There is not a lot of space on the field for a large field element the largest we have had since 3 v 3 was probably the Rack. If we assume as it seems to be described that this is significantly heavier than the rack my new conclusion is that the large field element is not actually on the field. Now before you call me crazy here me out. What if there is a scaffolding structure above the driver station with stairs leading up to it from behind. Perhaps this is the isolation booth for the Kinect perhaps a way to spread out the human players. Of course their would be safety railings and what not perhaps it even over hangs or crosses a portion of the field... thoughts?

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It seems unlikely to me that they would elevate humans around the playing field. Just the safety measures, insurance, handicap access that need to be taken care of seem too big to tackle.

-Brando

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From what I'm thinking, this year's game will involve lifting robots. Possibly having two robots lift a third onto a platform? Only time will tell.

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Watching TRON Legacy this evening, the multi-level lightcycle grid reminded me of this discussion.:)

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Has anyone here been on a team to build field parts before? Have there been any other games in memory (other than the rack) that require steel? (or did that not even use it?) Something will be doing some serious lifting/supporting on the field. Robots being elevated is more likely than people I think, but maybe the structure is for a ground-level kinect booth? But then they would have used aluminum...

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Overpass and lane dividers in 2008... Minibot poles in 2011... Towers in 2010... Ramp sides in 2006 (diamond plate on the ramp side)... 2005's goals... 2004's bar... 2003's ramp supports (the ramps were copper mesh) and limbo bars... 2001's limbo bar... the center-field structure in 2000 was piping... and most of the games in the later 90's had steel pipe structures of various sorts (exception, 1999).

In addition to the field rails, some of which may need replacing due to hard impacts...

There are a lot more uses for steel on an FRC field than there are on an FRC robot.

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Much of those structures were aluminum, not steel.
Easier to ship, easier to assemble.

200 lbs of steel per field isn't a lot. It's not much more than than the weight of a fully loaded, mostly aluminum, robot and it's a lot less bulky.
Two people could lift all the steel on the field.