Re: Just some thoughts...
 

Posted by Chris.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.

Posted on 6/1/99 6:29 AM MST


In Reply to: Just some thoughts... posted by Tom Vanderslice on 5/29/99 1:56 PM MST:



Proposal 2 sounds like a great idea. It's worked for a long time in golf.

I'm a big golf fan (and an avid golfer), and you got it almost right. The following cases get automatic tour cards for the next year:

1. top 125 on the money list (I think it's 125, I'm not 100% sure).
2. Tournament winners from the previous two years.
3. A winner of a special event within X number of years before (like the Player's Champion gains a 5 year exemption, World Series of Golf Champion gets like a 3 year exemption).
4. The top few (I think 15) on the money list of the Nike Tour (minor league tour).

If you don't fall into any of the three categories, you must go to qualifying school, which is a set of tournaments in which the top few get tour cards.

FIRST could use a similar format and have it be pretty successful. Take the top 100 from Nationals, winners of regionals, top qualifiers from regionals, and give them automatic bids to next year's nationals. The rest of the team would qualify through regionals.

Of course, I don't want to do any of this until the numbers of teams make it absolutely necessary. In the mean time, I would like to see everyone get to go to nationls.

-Chris


: Ok...basically every proposed idea falls into 2 categories...

: 1)
: Teams don't find out they are going to nationals until fairly soon
: before nationals...then they must arrange travel, etc...and things get
: even more expensive...now..i really dislike this idea...(see other
: messages) but i think it is better than..

: 2)
: Teams qualify for next years nationals this year. This skirts the
: 'unexpected expenses' problem...but brigns up a lot of issues like...
: first a foremost...SENIOR Student's mentality: seniors should be the
: leaders on the team...but if the seniors get the mentality of my team
: gets rewarded next year for what we do this year for the team...but we
: don't get to see anything unless last years team did well also and we
: get to go to nationals this year...students become less enthusiastic
: when they can't test their machine against this years top machines...

: one solution to this problem could be a combination of the two...
: something that i kind of thought of while sitting reading these messages
: kind of based on the concept of (gee of all 'sports' to choose from) PGA
: golf...now i won't claim to know the particulars...but from what i've
: gathered...golfers ont eh tour get to stay on if they've won $x amount of
: money or placed well enough in different qualifying tournamnets etc...and
: if you don't qualify then to get back ont eh tour you have to go through
: some qualifying school which i guess is some kind of group of tournaments
: where you can prove you belong on the tour (all you golf buffs out there
: will have to help this story out some...but you get the idea)...

: if we applied this concept to FIRST you could have the 'traditional powerhouses'
: the teams that placed well in recent years at both regionals and nationals
: and in the chairman's awards etc...and then the regionals can be the
: 'qualifying school' of sorts...so teams that have done well before KNOW
: they can go this year...but teams that haven't or who are rookies still
: have a chance at qualifying...now i haven't worked all this out i know
: there are still problems with it...but my thinking behind this is that it
: would alleviate some of the 'unexpected expenses' problem with not
: qualifying until a few months before...while allowing the traditionally good
: teams to get they're practice in at regionals etc...and not have to worry
: about a hardware problem or some other glitch where they perform poorly
: at regionals...but can be fixed...those kinds of things...

:
: another idea i just had about #2 would be to keep the same game a few years
: i don't like this solution either...i like the new game each year...
: the new challenge...that's what makes it fun...but it is apossibility...
: this would really turn it more into a sport that has basically a season
: when ther eis a competition ever weekend and you compete for the 'big dance'
: or whatever you want to call it...and in the end...that is probably what
: we are headed for...the biggest problem is...how much school/work can be
: missed for FIRST...but oh well...

: I'll stop writing for a while and think some more... ;)

: Tom
: Team 275

Re: some possible alternatives
 

Posted by MaryEllen.

Other on team #180, S.P.A.M., from South Fork and Martin County High Schools and UTC/Pratt & Whitney, FL.

Posted on 5/31/99 6:07 AM MST


In Reply to: some possible alternatives posted by Joe Johnson on 5/28/99 7:36 PM MST:



I predict the venue for 2000 National will be the same as this year.
In 2001, they'll move us to a new arena at Wide World of Sports, 40,000
seats with the pit area still in tents.
Nationals will remain open to all for four - five years. From there on,
seeding at Regionals will be the qualifier to attend Nationals.
By then, the game will gain enough national air time to entice
corporations to fund the cost of sending the winners to Nationals.
It's done for other 'fringe' sports - BMX racing, skateboarding,
surfing - to name a few. The winners will lose their team numbers after
regionals and become 'Team Xerox', 'Team AT&T', 'Team Nike', etc.

And for my next prediction, next year's game will be a track meet/obstacle
course with eight to ten robots on the field simultaneously. Obvious winner,
no complicated scoring or explanation to outsiders, multiple tasks, no 9 pm
matches, just one 'stage'. And smaller robots, 50 - 60 lbs. to keep handling
manageable. Solves a multitude of sins. Maybe even a relay-type race to
keep alliances. Sound logical?

Next year's game
 

Posted by Susanne Krussell.

Coach on team #163, The Quantum Mechanics, from International Academy and Quantum Consultants/Eaton/ITT.

Posted on 5/31/99 10:17 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: some possible alternatives posted by MaryEllen on 5/31/99 6:07 AM MST:



Is this the earliest date anyone has ever posted thoughts about next year's game? Mary Ellen.You are a hopeless FIRST addict!!

Addict? Well, yeah!
 

Posted by MaryEllen.

Other on team #180, S.P.A.M., from South Fork and Martin County High Schools and UTC/Pratt & Whitney, FL.

Posted on 5/31/99 12:24 PM MST


In Reply to: Next year's game posted by Susanne Krussell on 5/31/99 10:17 AM MST:



: Is this the earliest date anyone has ever posted thoughts about next year's game? Mary Ellen.You are a hopeless FIRST addict!!

After eating and breathing this for almost two years, it grows on ya!
Between end-of-season party, awards day at our two schools, school board demo
(what should we give them as doorprizes), making pennants to hold two years
of collected buttons, getting a scrapbook put together, ideas for next newsletter,
working on a couple unsuspecting engineers for recruitment, meetings at an
unsponsored school to get a team started, putting together presentation for
that meeting, copying all our photos to CD, work on the multi-team survey
AND tracking down the last 200 tee shirts for the quilt - I still find time
to think up other things to do. I am most definately a FIRST junkie!
I know 12 more - just on my team. Bet I could find a thousand or so.

I like my terminology better..
 

Posted by Kate Leach.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Student on team #166, Team Merrimack, from Merrimack High School and Unitrode / RS Machines.

Posted on 6/3/99 7:43 PM MST


In Reply to: Addict? Well, yeah! posted by MaryEllen on 5/31/99 12:24 PM MST:



Some people call us addicts.. Some people call us junkies.. I like mine better..

Hi, my name is Kate, and I'm a FIRST-a-holic..

I had a few pins down in Florida that I was trading.. 'I'm a member of FIRST-a-holics Anonymous'

Of course, next year.. I'll have more most likely.. But they'll be changing.. One more word will be added.. LIFETIME

-Kate-

Re: I like my terminology better..
 

Posted by Beccy Rigden (Duct Tape).

Student on team #166 from Merrimack High.

Posted on 6/25/99 2:44 PM MST


In Reply to: I like my terminology better.. posted by Kate Leach on 6/3/99 7:43 PM MST:



Kate,
With WPI? What about us . . . :(

Don't count on Wide World of Sports
 

Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 5/31/99 11:52 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: some possible alternatives posted by MaryEllen on 5/31/99 6:07 AM MST:



Usually reliable sources tell me that WDW is committed to FIRST provided that it remains tied to EPCOT.

Disney wants the tie in to the technology angle of FIRST.

Bottom line: Don't count on getting out of the EPCOT parking lot any time soon.

Joe J.

Re: some possible alternatives
 

Posted by Nate Smith.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Student on team #74, Holland FIRST Robotics, from Holland High School and Haworth, Inc..

Posted on 6/1/99 7:41 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: some possible alternatives posted by MaryEllen on 5/31/99 6:07 AM MST:



: I predict the venue for 2000 National will be the same as this year.
: In 2001, they'll move us to a new arena at Wide World of Sports, 40,000
: seats with the pit area still in tents.

I don't know if they'll make the move(at least to WWofS...from what I saw down there this year, as well as what I remember people posting early this season, WWofS is too far out of the way to get the desired exposure at Disney. With where we are now, everyone going into EPCOT sees a few big tents and probably wonders, 'What's going on down there?'

Also, talking on the boats in EPCOT with a few people who were just on vacation this year, they showed some interest in the event, and said they might stop by before they left for the day. Would people like that make the trek out to WWofS to see something they knew very little about?

Just my two cents...

Nate

Re: some possible alternatives
 

Posted by MaryEllen.

Other on team #180, S.P.A.M., from South Fork and Martin County High Schools and UTC/Pratt & Whitney, FL.

Posted on 6/1/99 5:51 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: some possible alternatives posted by Nate Smith on 6/1/99 7:41 AM MST:



: : I predict the venue for 2000 National will be the same as this year.
: : In 2001, they'll move us to a new arena at Wide World of Sports, 40,000
: : seats with the pit area still in tents.

: I don't know if they'll make the move(at least to WWofS...from what I saw down there this year, as well as what I remember people posting early this season, WWofS is too far out of the way to get the desired exposure at Disney. With where we are now, everyone going into EPCOT sees a few big tents and probably wonders, 'What's going on down there?'

: Also, talking on the boats in EPCOT with a few people who were just on vacation this year, they showed some interest in the event, and said they might stop by before they left for the day. Would people like that make the trek out to WWofS to see something they knew very little about?

: Just my two cents...

: Nate

Disney is making a huge capital investment in WWofS. And they own ABC & ESPN.
Don't put it past them not to make that a big draw in the future. If they
get the new arena finished, they'd be foolish not to put the National there.
One of the BIGGEST complaints was having to kneel in front of the stages.
It fixes too many problems not to be considered.

hang on a few years...
 

Posted by Ken Patton.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #65, The Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.

Posted on 6/1/99 3:37 PM MST


In Reply to: Bite the bullet in 2000 posted by Joe Johnson on 5/27/99 8:56 PM MST:




I'm not sure that we are ready for an 'invite-only' or 'qualification-only' Nationals. Seems to me that part of the excitement of FIRST (particularly those who AREN'T yet involved) is that you get to go to Disney World. I know, you and I know that's not what its all about, but this culture that we're trying to change isn't there yet. Lets get more teams first.

I would rather see a way for the competition to handle more teams in the current amount of time allotted. This would keep the travel/food/lodging costs from rising. Some possible ways to do that, in no particular order:

1. More teams on the field at once (alliances is a subset of this)
2. Shorter matches (I know, dumb idea :))
3. Longer days, maybe combined with a staggered, known in advance schedule.
4. Reduce the time between matches (can you say instant scoring?)
5. More fields (although this creates a chaotic, unfocused event)
6. Multiple Florida events
7. An open practice area that runs in parallel to the matches.
8. Any others???

My personal favorite 'growth' idea: Have a 'regional' every week at Disney World. As we add more teams, all of them can still go to Florida. This allows any team to go to Florida. We still have other regionals around the country as demand rises. Disney gets our money week after week, so Mickey can continue to hire copyright lawyers (sorry, got off track there :)). The regionals are used as qualifers for the nationals, and the awards at regionals determine who goes to nationals (this sounds more objective to me than 'invite-only' :)). Nationals could be anywhere.

Ken

New Poll
 

Posted by Rick Gibbs.

Engineer on team #145, T-Rx, from Norwich High School, Sherburne-Earlville High School and Procter & Gamble Pharmaceuticals.

Posted on 5/28/99 4:14 PM MST


In Reply to: New Poll posted by PollMaster on 5/27/99 8:30 PM MST:



Personally, I voted 'strongly disagree' - at least until some issues are
addressed. Here's my two cents.

First, here's my big problem with the idea. It would be a shame to limit
a student's opportunity to be a part of an event as impactful and
impressive as the nationals.

Here's another issue:
In the past, it's been very difficult to find decent travel arrangements
with only 4-5 months of advance notice. That time of year in Florida is
very popular, and often reasonably priced tickets just aren't available.
Now cut that time down to 1-2 months (i.e. you won't know until the
regionals whether or not your going to nationals) and many teams will
have problems getting to EPCOT.

Yet another issue. Say your robot has a mechanical problem during a
couple qualification rounds at the regional. That may be enough to knock
you out of the finals and out of the nationals. This will cause teams
to attend multiple regional to ensure that they qualify for the finals.

Maybe there are some other ways to limit the number of teams at
nationals. 1. No rookie teams at nationals - let them get their feet
wet at the regionals first. 2. All teams must compete at regionals in
order to compete at (not qualify for) the nationals. 3. If teams must
qualify for nationals, hold a concilation competition elsewhere at
Disney. The top 10% of the teams from Thursday and Friday can then
qualify for Saturday's finals.

Am I way off base here?

New Poll
 

Posted by Beccy Rigden (Duct Tape).

Student on team #166 from Merrimack High.

Posted on 6/3/99 2:32 PM MST


In Reply to: New Poll posted by PollMaster on 5/27/99 8:30 PM MST:



grrr. We had to reserve out hotel rooms in October for nationals. If they are based on qualificaition there is no way for us to get there in time. It's all fine and dandy for students in FL but way up here in NH it's hard to do!!!

Room Reservations
 

Posted by MaryEllen.

Other on team #180, S.P.A.M., from South Fork and Martin County High Schools and UTC/Pratt & Whitney, FL.

Posted on 6/9/99 4:49 AM MST


In Reply to: New Poll posted by Beccy Rigden (Duct Tape) on 6/3/99 2:32 PM MST:



: grrr. We had to reserve out hotel rooms in October for nationals. If they are based on qualificaition there is no way for us to get there in time. It's all fine and dandy for students in FL but way up here in NH it's hard to do!!!

Why October? If I remember, the deadline for Disney reservations was December.
We even had engineers, who joined after January, get rooms in the same hotel,
on the same floor, as the rest of our team in February and March.
Disney is better at organizing and routing large groups of people better
than the US Marines.

Re: rooms
 

Posted by Fran .

Other on team #166, Team Merrimack, from Merrimack High School and Unitrode/R.S. Machines.

Posted on 6/9/99 10:05 AM MST


In Reply to: Room Reservations posted by MaryEllen on 6/9/99 4:49 AM MST:




As Team 166's travel coordinator, I corrected Beccy about OCT.....You see last year we had people withou a clue running things ...they did not try to make reservations until Feb which cost us $100 more for less time and we were outside Disney. In order to avoid this problem I started to inquire in Oct. about reservations...no one was allowed to 'book the FIRSTdeal' until Jan. when kickoff happened. Now if you booked in Dec., it wasn't under the FIRST plan but maybe just a regular reservation. We booked
15 rooms which later were reduced to 10 and Disney was happy because they had a waiting list since 1 week after kickoff. Obviously if nationals became invitation only then not so many teams would be booking flights or rooms. As much as its great to watch most teams can't afford a trip just to watch besides this will make the regional presence more important.....they seem like closer knit competitions ..you can remember and follow teams and not get lost in the shuffle. I do feel Disney would need toset aside room for qualifiers over observers

Fran




: : grrr. We had to reserve out hotel rooms in October for nationals. If they are based on qualificaition there is no way for us to get there in time. It's all fine and dandy for students in FL but way up here in NH it's hard to do!!!

: Why October? If I remember, the deadline for Disney reservations was December.
: We even had engineers, who joined after January, get rooms in the same hotel,
: on the same floor, as the rest of our team in February and March.
: Disney is better at organizing and routing large groups of people better
: than the US Marines.

invitationals/nationals
 

Posted by michael bastoni.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #23, PNTA, from Plymouth North High School and Boston Edison Co.

Posted on 6/6/99 6:39 PM MST


In Reply to: New Poll posted by PollMaster on 5/27/99 8:30 PM MST:



Ahh, an opportunity to wade into what appears to be some deep water,
with strong currents and an undertoe.....hmmmm my kind of conditions.

The Disney invitational sounds good.....as long as there are other,
open venues to participate in.

As for advance reservations...go ahead and make them.

Even if your team isn't invited you should go and participate.
Should'nt you ?

Disney is doing this for the money too, so don't feel too bad about canceling
them 30 days prior to leaving (If you don't get an invitation and feel like sulking)

What I like as a coach, is that the invitational is a real motivator...One
we might need in the future.


Here's what I think. (For what it's worth)

I think the corporate sponsor wants to at least believe that the students
are doing more than just helping the engineers build the robot and saying
that they are inspired to work hard and be good engineers....I think
the FIRST effort can accomplish more than this...and on most teams it does.

That's exactly why an invitational national at say the Geographical center
of North America...might be the right answer...It would serve as the reward
for the teams who made a concious efforts to achieve...to do the 8 THINGS
FIRST ASKS OF EVERY TEAM. Or for those teams who fielded an effective Robot.
(the '8 things' refers to a posting 5/13/99 by Michael Bastoni, you can find it
using the built in search engine on the tool bar above. THIS WEB SITE IS AWESOME
BRANDON)

An Invitational National would send a message that working hard, working diligently,
and acquiring skills, is the real ticket to the nationals...

You go to the nationals because you earned it through what you learned or
tried to learn. Or through designing and building a
competetive robot. Not simply because you raised enough money or can afford to go.

Here's my support for this POV. At the 2007 games (the MIT design competition
that FIRST is modeled after) ANY student who fields a working robot receives
an A for a grade...That's what Alex Slocum the Mech Prof. who runs the event said.
Well...the implication is that if you do not field a working robot, maybe
you do not get an A....or maybe you can get an A another way...fact is,
only A's participate...FIRST does not have anything analagous to this A thing...and
it's an important ingredient...an Invitation to the Nationals is anaogous
to the A....I doubt the 'plywood box' would argue.

And if you think the nationals is important to the kids...hey by all means
come down and watch....no one is saying you can't come...in fact non invited
teams should come...I'd certainly want to be there even if our team did'nt make it.

And a cool cornfield in South Idaho, or Wyoming sounds better than a hot
tarmack in Florida...where would you want to kneel?

Mr. B