Re: Inspiration is not measured by time
 

Posted by mike aubry.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chiefs, from Pontiac Central.

Posted on 6/1/99 3:22 PM MST


In Reply to: Eating lead in 2000 posted by michael bastoni on 5/31/99 9:00 AM MST:



Mr. B.
You are such an articulate person and oh so inspirational to all, BUT - your comment regarding the
following raises a concern!
: A minimum of 10 weeks prep time (building the machine, the animation, the CA, the FFL, the
: fundraising, the 'Community Events' (I so hate that term)...all for what....FOR 1 or 2 brief
: moments of thrilling excitement and INSPIRATION.?
The objective of inspiring each other, (engineers inspiring students, teachers inspiring students, students
inspiring engineers, etc.) cannot be measured by the amount of time that we interact on a robotics playing field.
I have found that the most inspiring events have occured at a wide variety of times, and that by far most if not all of
them were no way near a FIRST playing field or in the close proximity of a robot. Many times just talking with them
about all kinds of everyday things have lead me to be inspired, and hopefully the students feel the same.
The issue isn't how much we play the game - I don't think the challenges of the game or the robot is the cause of the
inspiration. The game and the robot are the glue that brings students, teachers, and engineers together such that
the interaction may hopefully result in an inspirational occurance - for everyone. I know that I get inspired every year
by the students and teachers on our team. I can only hope that by some small miracle I can inspire someone to go on
and continue their education in a field of technology, or continue to participate in FIRST. Unfortunately, the time factor
is real and must be dealt with. Continuing to play the game (same or otherwise) by extending the season doesn't mean
that we will increase our chances of inspiring any additional students, teachers, or engineers. But, I do fear that we will
burn them out! I don't think that burned out people are as able to inspire others, so we must be careful about 'How much'
time. You make a whole lot of sense, and believe me its been felt here on team 47 as well. The problem is that this thing
that we all love so much can be whatever you (individually) want it to be, but you know as well as I do that collectively (even
just on a team by team basis) it is almost impossible to agree on what it should be & how it should be run. Keep up the great
work, and the inspirational comments.

bingo
 

Posted by Ken Patton.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #65, The Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.

Posted on 6/1/99 4:01 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Inspiration is not measured by time posted by mike aubry on 6/1/99 3:22 PM MST:




Mike-

I think you're right. Most of the inspirational moments that I remember are the ones that happened during the design phase, when the contribution of student team members had an impact on overall robot design or performance. To me, thats when the student might think to themselves 'I could do this!' Later on, once the robot was built, was more 'showoff' than 'inspiration.'

Ken

We are on the same bus.....
 

Posted by michael bastoni.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #23, PNTA, from Plymouth North High School and Boston Edison Co.

Posted on 6/1/99 8:24 PM MST


In Reply to: bingo posted by Ken Patton on 6/1/99 4:01 PM MST:




I would love to do nothing more than share a cold drink on my porch with
the people who contribute to this page...agree or disagree it does not
matter...what matters is that we are 'outing' what is essential to this
program....because we are this program...the kids, the technical folks,
the teachers and the parents.....and what we believe is essential, is what
is essential. And there are some striking comonalities surfacing in this
dialogue as well as some strongly held opinions...good show..strong opinions
demonstrate passion and passion is the antidote to apathy.

For instance...Dan holds strongly to student involvement...to the belief
that high school students can do the 'engineering'...and properly supported
they can...I have seen too many examples of what young men and women have
achieved to think otherwise....

But let me please go on record as being highly respective of anyone with
a technical degree, and exponentially respective of those who hold
advanced degrees....and so it goes.

And the FIRST games as they exist presently
are at just about the right level for high school students to participate
fully...but to participate fully they need instruction and lots and lots of
time to gain experience and insight... Teachers cannot take 30 students and bring them
all up to speed on the intricacies of electro-mechanical design,Materials Science,
Machine tool processes, Microcontroller programming, Desktop Publishing
AutoCad visualization and 3DMax animation techniques....enough to be competitive...in six weeks...
but we can over a period of 5 years...Because given the time, resources and 'reason'
to do it...the students develop these skills themselves. Trust me on this,
They really do. But remember the important part of the phrase...'Given the time and resources
and reason...' The reason they take the time to do it is because they want
the achievement, the recognition of the achievement and the knowledge
gained through their effort...And while I am very
biased towards my kids...I will concede that they are more the normative
example as opposed to the extreme. And I freely admit to being more the 'keeper'
of our lab facility, rather than the director.

NOTE: The Pappalardo Mechanical Engineering Lab at a small university in
Cambridge Massachusetts (MIT) exists soley for the reason that engineering
students should get their hands dirty building machines...even if they will
never put their hands to the work again,,,,cause it provides deeper understanding
if the kids do it THEMSELVES (and many other engineering schools
hold to the same belief).....hey..if it's good enough for MIT...it works for me.


What I am asking for is the time...the time to work out the design
on the playing field with the kids and the support group, not under the pressure
cooker of the 6 week limitation...The time to really 'Work Out' the design, to see
it to it's logical conclusion...to continue the design process for a period of
2 or 3 seasons before we change it again....to have the time to develop the
solution and bring it to maturity and beyond...before we have to throw it
aside and start the process all over again...I am trying desperately to
relieve burn out...not increase it.

I do not look at playing with the machines as a trivial exercise, but rather
as a test bed for incremental improvements and 'Proof of Concept' trials.
This is how we learn....Learning is something I think I have some insight into.
I also look at playing with the machines as a time where students, teachers
and engineers and parents can come together to share the gift of themselves.
Just as Mike Aubry so clearly pointed out.( Great perspective Mike, right on)

JJ you KNOW that you have deeply impacted at least a few of the students on
our team...and it did not happen during the building of your robot or ours..
It happened at a time when we came together to play with the robots...which
in reality was not playing with them per se...but a legitimate extension of
the design process...

Eureka! That's it...I have come incrementally closer to formulating my
position...I did not intend the phrase, play with the robots, in the sense that it appeared.
I meant that if we continue to play with the robots we are in fact simply
extending the design phase...a design phase that is far more sustainable
over the years and far more beneficial to the students in the long run...

And hey...I'm not going to war over this either, because I value all your
opinions far too much...and I clearly appreciate that the POV of
an engineering volunteer will be understandably different from that of an educator
and for very good reasons....and so the discussion continues as it should.
I for one am coming closer to an understanding of what we are doing
for these children, and for all the imperfections, and personal biasis, it is
'A good thing'.

One last thing....

I am particularly attracted to the other elephant...the one JJ talks about
where the professional engineers with major (read NASCAR) corporate backing
compete with robots that look like something out of ALIEN...you know, where
Sirgony Weaver gets into the hydraulic actuated persoanl maximizer and gets
the job done...(This is admittedly straight from JJ in a sane moment)
I find this possibility VERY attractive....now that's inspiration. Leave
the little 130 pounders to the kids...I sooo think that is what Dean's vision
will evolve to....and then the kids and teachers and parents will have their significant
involvement...and we can watch Chrysler knock end effectors with Coke and Toyota
at the Meadowlands, or in the Superdome and then go home and tune up
our robots to be like THEM....Stone Cold Steve Austin ain't
even ready for this....

mr.b

Re: We are on the same bus.....
 

Posted by Fran .

Other on team #166, Team Merrimack, from Merrimack High School and Unitrode/R.S. Machines.

Posted on 6/2/99 8:31 AM MST


In Reply to: We are on the same bus..... posted by michael bastoni on 6/1/99 8:24 PM MST:



: The idea of continueing and expanding on the current robot for longer period of time can still be done after the fact. There are no rules after nationals and if it teachs your students more about how to improve on a design then go for it. Imagine what the robots showing up at Rumble might be able to do. You could work all year long on changes and have micro-meets like we did in the school cafeteria during lunch hour...all you need is one other robot from a nearby school. We met the following week at the other schools caf to return the favor...it was simple without too much planning and it work,,,everyone from 2 schools knew what we were doing and we had fun playing with our robot more.

FIRST really wants the schools to create a curriculum so all these aspects are taught year round not just in 6 weeks and that is why they have added the new award for curriculum development. This will allow for learning how to use and develop the things neccessary for the 6 week crunch without taking time away from the companies....it should ease burnout.We are certainly hoping to bring the FIRST course to our school but it might take a while yet. We need to grab the interest before High school so they look for it when they arrive. We are putting on a demonstration at our middle school in conjunction with the Lego League for our 8th graders, including animation..hopefully the interest will go home and as more kids want it, the parents will seek more from the school boards,

I guess I'm rambling and off the subject by now but KEEP IT SIMPLE and use your robots.


: I would love to do nothing more than share a cold drink on my porch with
: the people who contribute to this page...agree or disagree it does not
: matter...what matters is that we are 'outing' what is essential to this
: program....because we are this program...the kids, the technical folks,
: the teachers and the parents.....and what we believe is essential, is what
: is essential. And there are some striking comonalities surfacing in this
: dialogue as well as some strongly held opinions...good show..strong opinions
: demonstrate passion and passion is the antidote to apathy.

: For instance...Dan holds strongly to student involvement...to the belief
: that high school students can do the 'engineering'...and properly supported
: they can...I have seen too many examples of what young men and women have
: achieved to think otherwise....

: But let me please go on record as being highly respective of anyone with
: a technical degree, and exponentially respective of those who hold
: advanced degrees....and so it goes.

: And the FIRST games as they exist presently
: are at just about the right level for high school students to participate
: fully...but to participate fully they need instruction and lots and lots of
: time to gain experience and insight... Teachers cannot take 30 students and bring them
: all up to speed on the intricacies of electro-mechanical design,Materials Science,
: Machine tool processes, Microcontroller programming, Desktop Publishing
: AutoCad visualization and 3DMax animation techniques....enough to be competitive...in six weeks...
: but we can over a period of 5 years...Because given the time, resources and 'reason'
: to do it...the students develop these skills themselves. Trust me on this,
: They really do. But remember the important part of the phrase...'Given the time and resources
: and reason...' The reason they take the time to do it is because they want
: the achievement, the recognition of the achievement and the knowledge
: gained through their effort...And while I am very
: biased towards my kids...I will concede that they are more the normative
: example as opposed to the extreme. And I freely admit to being more the 'keeper'
: of our lab facility, rather than the director.

: NOTE: The Pappalardo Mechanical Engineering Lab at a small university in
: Cambridge Massachusetts (MIT) exists soley for the reason that engineering
: students should get their hands dirty building machines...even if they will
: never put their hands to the work again,,,,cause it provides deeper understanding
: if the kids do it THEMSELVES (and many other engineering schools
: hold to the same belief).....hey..if it's good enough for MIT...it works for me.

:
: What I am asking for is the time...the time to work out the design
: on the playing field with the kids and the support group, not under the pressure
: cooker of the 6 week limitation...The time to really 'Work Out' the design, to see
: it to it's logical conclusion...to continue the design process for a period of
: 2 or 3 seasons before we change it again....to have the time to develop the
: solution and bring it to maturity and beyond...before we have to throw it
: aside and start the process all over again...I am trying desperately to
: relieve burn out...not increase it.

: I do not look at playing with the machines as a trivial exercise, but rather
: as a test bed for incremental improvements and 'Proof of Concept' trials.
: This is how we learn....Learning is something I think I have some insight into.
: I also look at playing with the machines as a time where students, teachers
: and engineers and parents can come together to share the gift of themselves.
: Just as Mike Aubry so clearly pointed out.( Great perspective Mike, right on)

: JJ you KNOW that you have deeply impacted at least a few of the students on
: our team...and it did not happen during the building of your robot or ours..
: It happened at a time when we came together to play with the robots...which
: in reality was not playing with them per se...but a legitimate extension of
: the design process...

: Eureka! That's it...I have come incrementally closer to formulating my
: position...I did not intend the phrase, play with the robots, in the sense that it appeared.
: I meant that if we continue to play with the robots we are in fact simply
: extending the design phase...a design phase that is far more sustainable
: over the years and far more beneficial to the students in the long run...

: And hey...I'm not going to war over this either, because I value all your
: opinions far too much...and I clearly appreciate that the POV of
: an engineering volunteer will be understandably different from that of an educator
: and for very good reasons....and so the discussion continues as it should.
: I for one am coming closer to an understanding of what we are doing
: for these children, and for all the imperfections, and personal biasis, it is
: 'A good thing'.

: One last thing....

: I am particularly attracted to the other elephant...the one JJ talks about
: where the professional engineers with major (read NASCAR) corporate backing
: compete with robots that look like something out of ALIEN...you know, where
: Sirgony Weaver gets into the hydraulic actuated persoanl maximizer and gets
: the job done...(This is admittedly straight from JJ in a sane moment)
: I find this possibility VERY attractive....now that's inspiration. Leave
: the little 130 pounders to the kids...I sooo think that is what Dean's vision
: will evolve to....and then the kids and teachers and parents will have their significant
: involvement...and we can watch Chrysler knock end effectors with Coke and Toyota
: at the Meadowlands, or in the Superdome and then go home and tune up
: our robots to be like THEM....Stone Cold Steve Austin ain't
: even ready for this....

: mr.b

Re: burnout is measured by time
 

Posted by Mike McIntyre.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central HS and Delphi Automotive.

Posted on 6/13/99 3:44 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Inspiration is not measured by time posted by mike aubry on 6/1/99 3:22 PM MST:



Inspiration may not be measured by time, but burnout sure is. The costs of this program go way beyond $. I don't see why the playing field plans and the software couldn't be handed out in the Fall so that teams could begin experimenting with the software and start field construction right away. The kit of parts could be shipped in late Fall so that coaches and engineers could begin teaching about the possibilities of each component in an unhurried manner. The actual game rules (and possibly an additional piece or two of the game field or kit of parts) wouldn't be given until the kickoff; the excitement would still be there and, since nobody could start building yet, the crazy burnout time is still limited to 6 weeks; with better pretraining of students, they would be better able to make meaningful contributions to the build job.

Re: Eating lead in 2000
 

Posted by Andy Baker.

Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 6/2/99 12:34 AM MST


In Reply to: Eating lead in 2000 posted by michael bastoni on 5/31/99 9:00 AM MST:



OK, after reading all of you fanatics rant about this and that, I wanna weigh in and have a say also:

Although we disagree how to do it, I can safely say that we all want these two things:
1. Inspire Students
2. Grow FIRST

Now, the question is, how do we so this?

(I'm trying to summarize most of our opinions here, so bear with me.)

Here are the suggestions thus far:
1. Play more
2. Interact more with other teams
3. Keep the game the same for a few years
4. Make the game different and challenging every year
5. Have more summer contests (like Rumble)
6. Divide into different leagues

Here are the recent 'issues' from past competitions:
1. Nationals is getting too big for FIRST to handle
2. Too much waiting to compete after shipping 'bots
3. Not enough practice and play times
4. We didn't grow as fast as FIRST thought we would
5. Inequity between teams
6. Stadiums in parking lots aren't the best places to battle robots
7. Many communities don't quite 'get' what we are doing

After looking at these points I have a realization: let's de-emphasize Nationals and concentrate on Regionals!

Let's drop all of the shipping restrictions and let the teams play with their robots as much as they want to during the Competition Season.

Here are my reasons:
We started out with 28 teams, and it grew to what we have today. I'd bet good money that if we fenced of the entire state of Michigan (which has 45+ teams), and didn't let any teams leave the state, they'd have 300 teams in 5 years. That's what we have to do, grow the teams locally. We (in Indiana) have not done that, therefore only 6 teams reside in our state. The reason why is because FIRST hasn't made us do it by letting us depend on Nationals.

If we didn't go to Nationals, what would we do?
We'd go to more Regionals and make more efforts to get more teams around us. We'd get serious about making our own Regional. We'd call up teams like Beatty or Wildstang and say 'Our gymnasium. Next Friday night. Bring your robot and as many fans as you can stuff into a bus. Best of 7 matches with this year's machine... while your at it, bring last year's 'bot. We want a piece of it also.'

We'd say, 'if FIRST isn't going to provide a Nationals for all teams anymore, we're gonna take more time and effort to build teams around us' This will MAKE US challenge other local large cities involved with starting teams. Just off of the top of my head... Indianapolis has 1 team, Louisville = 0, Cincinatti = 0, St. Louis = 0, Nashville = 0, Memphis = 0, and on and on...

This would enable us to play more, making people like Bastoni happy. It would get communties more involved. Mayors and student board memebers would actually attend these competitions instead of seeing videos from Florida. Other communities would be more envious, and they can attend competitions.

We could still have National Competitions, but with less teams. Only the best of the best could go to Nationals, and the rest would watch the live televised event on Sunday afternoon, instead of the Pacers vs. Knicks.

The game is still new every year (keeping the engineers, student designers, and companies happy), but we all get to play more... on our terms. Where we want, against who we want, and when we want.

How is this bad?
We wouldn't get to interact with teams from other parts of the US (and world?). That's where the Rumble-like events come in to play. The same old teams could get together to beat on each other and talk about the old times over a beverage.
Also, there might be some differences between how 'the game' is being played in California vs. how it's played in Florida. Who cares? As long as we are inspriring kids and growing FIRST, we should be fine.

Anyway, feel free to chew on this. It's not a very well thought-out plan, so please take it and make it better.

Later,
Andy B.

FIRST survey
 

Posted by Tom Wible.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #131, chaos, from central high school manchester and osram-sylvania.

Posted on 6/2/99 7:42 AM MST


In Reply to: Eating lead in 2000 posted by michael bastoni on 5/31/99 9:00 AM MST:



Why don't we answer some of these questions with some data?
How about a survey given to EVERY student, teacher, engineer, technician. Does FIRST inspire? How many go on to engineering careers?
Etc.

2 cents
Tom Wible

Re: FIRST survey
 

Posted by Andy Baker.

Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 6/2/99 8:29 AM MST


In Reply to: FIRST survey posted by Tom Wible on 6/2/99 7:42 AM MST:



Sending surveys out is a very good idea. Getting info from teams is not so easy, but it is happening. Colleen, Daniel, Mary Ellen, and myself have sent out surveys to most of the teams, and we have gotten 40 or 50 responses thus far. These surveys don't ask the questions you are asking, but they are laying some ground for starting new teams and keeping good ones going.

Maybe we need to add some more questions to another survey... but from what I've seen, it's not that easy. Maybe a more in-depth survey can be distributed at next years kick-off, or send out a more detailed survey need to be distributed.

Andy B.

Re: FIRST survey
 

Posted by Andy Baker.

Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 6/2/99 8:30 AM MST


In Reply to: FIRST survey posted by Tom Wible on 6/2/99 7:42 AM MST:



Sending surveys out is a very good idea. Getting info from teams is not so easy, but it is happening. Colleen, Daniel, Mary Ellen, and myself have sent out surveys to most of the teams, and we have gotten 40 or 50 responses thus far. These surveys don't ask the questions you are asking, but they are laying some ground for starting new teams and keeping good ones going.

Maybe we need to add some more questions to another survey... but from what I've seen, it's not that easy. Maybe a more in-depth survey can be distributed at next years kick-off, or send out a more detailed survey need to be distributed.

Andy B.

FIRST's Survey
 

Posted by Jason Leslie.

Other on team #157, The Aztechs, from Assabet Valley RTHS and Simplex / EMC / Intel Massachusetts / Ascend .

Posted on 6/2/99 8:53 AM MST


In Reply to: FIRST survey posted by Tom Wible on 6/2/99 7:42 AM MST:



In the past years hasn't FIRST sent out a survey to all the teams?

Also FIRST had a meeting last year with all the teams at FIRST Place to
discuss how the competition should evolve for the next years. I belive
they will continue having this meeting because it is theonly way really
to hear the suggestions of all the teams and this is when they are
listening.

Maybe we need another poll and get the ansewrs and send the results to
FIRST.

Jay