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What I meant to imply was that if the game pieces are small and need to be counted quickly (as suggested by the previous posters who noted the high-speed counters and photosensors with a narrow field of view), teams that want to practice effectively (which includes practice dealing with the quirks of the field) may want to replicate the scoring apparatus, electronics and all. (For example, during a simulated game, keeping track of the state of 200 small balls might be more difficult than the state of a couple dozen large ones, as we had in 2006.) Of course, this is merely speculation. I do recognize that the narrow field of view of a photosensor can also imply game pieces of indeterminate size, close to the sensor. |
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If the IR sensors have a narrow (8 degree?) field of view, then they are not likely to be used to count game pieces going into a large target opening (i.e. 2006 goal or the top of a basket). There are better sensors for that.
Besides counting game pieces, the high speed recorders could be used to measure the speed of an object passing between two sets of sensors. These items could also be configured into a linear or rotary encoder to measure speed and displacement of some moving part of a field element. With the Kinect supposedly being used as part of the drivers station during autonomous, I expect to see moveable field elements. They would be repositioned after the bots are set on the field, and HP's would use the Kinect to steer the robot to them. |
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Rock wall? :ahh: :confused: yay woah yay:) |
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EDITED TO MATCH EXTRA INFORMATION:
The math that I did: 2500 Panel Lights = 2500 Teams --> Thus, this is one order, Possibly for everything they are getting from Rockwell. 14 Amber Stack Lights (Or 14 E-stop Buttons) / 3 per Alliance * 2 Alliances Per field - 2 Spares = 2 Extra Fields Being made this year --> That knocks out all of the remaining stack lights ~250 High Speed Counters & 500 Photosensors = 2 Photosensors to One Counter = Two Seperate and equal scoring Goals for Each Alliance (Like the two Logomotion racks) 500 Photosensors/ 19 Fields = 25 Sensors per field = 12 per Alliance + 1 Spare 250 Counters / 19 Fields = 12 Counters Per Field = 6 counters per alliance 6 counters per alliance = 6 Scoring Levels? 168 Roller Limit Switches= Some lever Element or Robot Interaction Element on Field? These style of switches are not like the standard microswitch that were used on the Tower for Logomotion. These are heavier duty than those, and the roller indicates that something is designed to roll or slide past the switch. With a 99% probability, I can say that these switches aren't intended for user interface, or something like the minibot tower... 168 Roller Limit Switches / 19 Fields / 2 Alliances = 4 Switches Per Alliance As for Tennis Balls as game pieces, to make a field reset faster what if the field was a gently sloped "^", where the dropped tennis balls roll down to the ends of the field, and were collected in a large hopper? This would eliminate the driving hazards and speed up the field reset... This would also explain the "Heavy" Field, because surface would need to support the robots... And why else would they need the high speed counters? A normal counter would easily have the frequency to count, say, soccer balls rolling through a photogate... And if the balls rolled back to a hopper, that would mean that the switches could be used to trigger a "Dumping" mechanism that would dump that hopper into a robot, maybe scoring extra points? This would also be an interesting twist of strategy, making floor pickup less effective due to the game pieces "running away" and a robot that can quickly and effectively travel across the field to collect from the dumpers more effective than floor pickup. |
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Pierce, just so you know, there will be 19 fields this year, not 15. This will skew your math a little bit, but many of your points seem valid.
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all of you have been focusing on the really technical side. at first glance ANCHOR stuck out in my head. i'm sure that some people have thought that this year is the 100th anniversary of the sinking of the titanic.... now how perfect would that be?
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I think we should focus more on the technical aspects anyway. Let's imagine for a minute that there is a hidden message in the list. They wouldn't order parts specifically for their secret message, so they would have had to do what you just did, which is go out on a limb and see if there was anything that could have a double meaning on the list. Except that it's such a stretch that you could do it for any item on this list! Example: Quote:
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Obviously something on the field will be happening fast enough (and/or often enough) that human judges would have a hard time. This could be anything moving on the field: field elements, game pieces, or even robots.
Whatever is happening that needs to be counted, it seems like the timing of the counting is critical. Maybe the match time will not count continuously, or maybe an event on the field must take place within a certain time. eg. If there was a plate on the floor in front of the feeder stations last year connected to a ROLLER LIMIT SWITCH and as soon as you backed away from the plate a timer would start and you would have to place the tube (detected by a PHOTOTRANSISTOR) within a certain amount of time or it would be invalid. The VERY HIGH SPEED COUNTER could be part of the timing mechanism or could keep track of the scores (it seems like the scoring will be faster than hanging tubes). I also really like the idea someone posted a while ago about the counter being used in the finale when a bunch of mechanisms fire at once. Although this is even more conjecture than the rest of my post, at the beginning of this thread everyone was talking about the photogates detecting "breaking a plane" and the only time I ever hear "did the ball break the plane" is while watching a football game. also: in a football game, the clock stops for all kinds of stuff, something that a VERY HIGH SPEED COUNTER could be used for. Even if its not football (unlikely) the number (10-12 per field someone calculated) is a LOT. Even in Breakaway, there were only two goals per team, so unless there are bunch of goals worth different points (imagining aim high + ski ball) they could plan on lining up the photogates in areas to make "end zones". I would LOVE a mixture of Aim High and Ski Ball. :ahh: The programmers would have fun. edit: flying ski-ball game could use all kinds of balls (even tennis) and would explain the extra polycarb if the field was going to be encased for safety |
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I don't know if anyone said anything about this earlier, but (according to wikipedia) 2012 has been designated Alan Turing Year "commemorating the mathematician, computer pioneer, and code-breaker on the centennial of Turing's birth."
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This has to be by far the fewest posts for a game hint ever. We would normally get this many posts in a matter of hours. Interesting!
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Nobody wants to look up each individual part. Oh wait, that's what i'm doing right now!
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Plus I agree that it's too much work to really think about this hint. Poems and pictures draw the crowd easy because they are simple. Or it could be a great conspiracy by the GDC, formulating a game hint! The participation in the game isn't as necessary! Must be a game hint! Has to be. |
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This lack kind of shows you another side to it, doesn't it? Jane |
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If a student has the ability to use google, they should have the ability to give some sort of input if they want, regardless of being a rookie or non-techies. |
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Well, going off of what I know for sure has been on field before (don't know 100% but I do notice some things that have NOT been on the field before), the AMBER light, which when lit will be quite similar to red since it will be orangish and the cameras will have a hard time distinguishing between these lights, which could easily be part of the challenge of autonomous mode is doing a task where the robot has to do something with the lights. There are 14 of the Ambers lights as well, which would be one per field if going by the count of others things that are on the field of 1 each. However, there is also the hood for the Amber light for the robots so that's another something in there, with a count of 2500 so that's obviously for each robot (although I think we'll need more seeing as how team numbers are way up in the 3000s).
Also, the count of 14 e-stops not 19 confuses me slightly since we'll be having 19 fields. Also, the RSLogix stuff at the bottom.... only 1 and 2 of those items. Quick Google search tells me it's from Rockwell (obviously) and it's a programming software. Now, I don't know if it's just for the field seeing as how small of an amount they are donating but most likely. Do not know if it has been used before, though. Some interesting things going on, though. :) |
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From looking up some of these parts, I can tell you that an object will more than likely be passing through a goal of some kind. Expect balls.
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http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=55 Seems like people don't read through the thread in it's entirety. |
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Actually, Akash, I was thinking of rookie teams - not just the students. Jane |
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Thank you though for relinking us to that. |
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Remember, they are building 2 new fields so that's why there are 2 (or a backup 3rd) of some things, or in the case of e-stop buttons one per driver station per 2 fields with one backup each. And I have seen a few teams on here with 4000#'s but not every number is still active, so I think 2500 is plenty. (most of this was addressed in previous posts) |
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The mention of 6 scoring zones per side intrigued me. What if this year's game was something like a mix of Aim High and Breakaway? There would be two stacks of 3 goals at three different heights (imagine LogoMotion now) and they were all worth different amounts of points (probably the same-ish scoring as LogoMotion: 3=highest, 2=middle, 1=lowest). This would prevent the decreased scoring throughout the match like last year, instead teams would have to decide strategically if pushing a load of balls in the low goal is as beneficial as shooting them into the top goal.
To further increase the strategic element of the game, a light is present in each goal and switches randomly between goals throughout the match. The goal with the light on is worth 5 points rather than its normal point value. Just the game I came up with in my head after reading this thread :D |
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Originally Posted by Bill's Blog 9/15/11 We’re building two additional competition fields this year bringing the total number of fields on the road to 19 (if you include the one packaged and staged for emergency deployment if something should happen to one of the other fields as it travels between events). They only have to acquire the materials needed to build two more fields, they already have the necessary equipment for the other 17... Thus the reduced number of e-stops, 6 per field for two alliances, plus one master or spare per field... |
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Now, a bit ago I went through some old game hints and remember some methods of looking at the picture, like once it had a low-resolution and people made relations with that.
Has anyone else noticed that by default this picture is quite SMALL and needs to be zoomed to be read? (It's beginning to look a lot like ... tennis balls) Also while it would've made since for tennis balls last year, I think it only should mean its more likely this year b/c the GDC always comes up with several ideas and decides to hold off on some for next yrs picks. |
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I don't know why, but I'm kinda just against tennis balls. I just do not want them in the 2012 FRC game. I know they have been used before, but that was when the robots were small enough to look like FTC bots. This is FRC. There are a multitude of other reasons why I don't want tennis balls, but I won't go into detail right now.
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What about a maze game? there are multiple exits from the maze, or your minibot goes to the end of the maze. It would use the sensors, limit switches perhaps to indicate your completion, or entering a new zone. just a thought |
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I'm getting to the point where I think we need a hint for the game hint...
but no such luck, going to have to wait for hint #2 |
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Been doing some math on this one, and I'm seeing enough electronics for 21 fields, not 19. It's the only way I can get the numbers on the more expensive electronics to come out evenly.
The 63 ArmorPoint Communications devices, divided among 21 fields means 3 per field, which makes sense (1 for each Alliance plus a spare). The 252 counters would mean 4 counters per Alliance. So either 4 goals, or 2 if they use Breakaway's 2 sensor goal design (though Breakaway's goal counters and high speed don't seem to fit in the same sentence to me). The 168 limit switches, at 21 fields, is 8 per field. So either 4 per side with no spares (to match a set of 4 goals?), or one per robot with 2 spare. I'm guessing the latter, since I haven't seen any recent game where they haven't had spare electronics for the field. So, some action for each robot, possibly endgame, that involves triggering a limit switch. Human player is also an option too, but I agree with earlier posters that this switch doesn't seem to fit human interaction |
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Quite possibly, although I speculate that it will be a basketball style game that includes a "Slam Dunk" in the endgame where your robot hangs from the goal (Read: Heavy steel field element,). Polycarbonate is heavy stuff. FIRST might have bought extra thick polycarbonate for backboards on the basketball goals.
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Yup, pretty much what jgw said. I am now confused though - do we have an exact number for how many fields we'll be getting? I apologize if it's been said already but I've been all sorts of numbers and apparently I just can't keep up with the smart masses on here.
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Yes, there are now 19 fields. Nineteen (For all the legalese people that like text numbers instead of numerical...). They are building 2 extra fields, so we now have 19 instead of 17 last year...
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Alrighty, thanks Pierce. Well then, with the parts that equal 21 fields, we are probably dedicating 1 field to Hawaii, 1 to Israel (normal, though).
The weeks with the number of regionals/districts are: Week 1: 5 + 2 qualifiers Week 2: 9 (1 being the Israel thing) + 4 qualifiers Week 3: 9 + 2 qualifiers Week 4: 12 + 3 qualifiers (hello busy! Also, two regionals in Seattle same weekend so 2 fields over there & Hawaii getting a field plenty of time ahead - 15 fields total, though) Week 5: 11 + 3 qualifiers (More busy with Minnesota getting 2 fields as well and the same for Texas) Week 6: 6 Week 7: 2 So for sure need at least 19 fields (since some will be stuck or not get there in time between weeks) and having enough spare parts for 3 fields would be the best idea ever especially for week 4 & 5 (that is if they aren't already planning to have 3 spare field for those 2 weeks). I could easily see problems then (end of March), not that I want them to happen but, with 29 regionals/qualifiers going on in the 2 week span.... it will be tense. But also then Hawaii having it's field early. |
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I'll start by saying I have not read ALL the previous posts (sacreligious, no?).
I think there will be some sort of projectile/ball used. Seems to follow a loose historical pattern. MAYBE the there will be a two- or three-tier point-scoring system, and robots can slide a shield, by way of some trigger, to cover/uncover a tier for their alliance, or their opponents (probably with some time limit, and a return-to-low point setting). The projectiles will then go to a hopper, and be re-dispensed somewhere on the field. Now what type of robot would you make? A fast get-to-the-switch robot, a collect-and-shoot robot, or one that can do both with great mediocrity? |
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I'm hoping for a game with an actual competitive drive. 3 on 3, the way it's supposed to be. If it's anything like 2000, I'll be mad. I want to be able to score for my team, block the opponent's, and defend my side from the opponents, and the opponent's side from themselves.
And the only way I'll have minibots (I decided last night), is to have them being thrown through hula hoops suspended about 10 feet in the air, and have the robots catch them. EDIT: The hoops will be on fire. :D |
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So have we decided that there is 1 more color stackable light than previous years?
If so I'm thinking, Autonomous-Kinect-Teleop-End |
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Also it would be really nice if people would read everything that has been said, I am seeing triple posts of the same ideas, and it's especially annoying when those ideas are wrong. :P |
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It seems like most people describing gameplay are settling on one of two options. Either an aim-high/basketball type game with multiple ski-ball-like targets, or a football type game where you need to break a plane with the robot.
The photo sensors could be used either of these games, but the high speed counters point to a multi-goal game and the pseudo-hint on Facebook points towards football. Unless a third, better option comes out, we will need to wait for the second clue to pick basketball or football. Can anyone think how one robot being kinect-controlled during autonomous (check the kinect usage thread) could fit into either of these game types? |
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Unless you guys are talking about the clear stack light, which there are 32 of, which would be one per field with 13 extra... If there are that many extra, that's indicative of that item being subject to heavy wear and tear. Maybe there is one of those lights near the center of the field? |
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Hey what about frisbees? They can be shot trough the goal, on the three diffrent levels! I would freaking love frisbees as game elements
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They do this all while standing in one place. :) |
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People love their sports entertainment; a football game would definitely broaden the audience. Imagine the look on some people's faces when we say "Oh yeah, we built a robot that can play football. No big deal." :eek:
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(I already have about 23 sketches of possibilities. Tank drive, swerve, launcher, kicker, a rotating mechanism, everything. :D) |
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If the game were based on football and there was an end zone, what about using the photosensors to accurately tell when the robot breaks the vertical plane of an end zone? If a robot were to come very close and suddenly backtrack/stop, maybe refs would have difficulty making the call
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Would we be allowed to challenge the play?.. always wanted to do that with a ref
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I have no idea about this hint. But I would like to see a game like 09 in the fact that there were huge impacts. Even on the slippery floor robots were so "out of control" that it was awesome fun. Yes lets do a game that is a lot of fun for the drive team, maybe a few less pinning / collision rules. :yikes:
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Is the only justification for footballs we have the nebulous "alternating sports years" pattern?
Footballs would be a hard game piece in the goals. An AimHigh high goal would likely jam often, Breakaway low goals would have no way of returning to the center like Breakaway's soccer balls, any center goal would be easily "camped" with a quick return (think 469 only more effective) and still be susceptible to jams, and side goals where Lunacy outposts were would be still worse. Before you say "they haven't been used," look at those reasons and consider why the GDC hasn't made them yet. Remember, plenty of other pieces haven't been used in a few years. We could just as easily use stacks or tetras. |
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Jim Beck from California FIRST gave a talk at the MVRT workshops yesterday, and said though he wasn't involved with the GDC, he knows the design process. He said to look to years past, and for the most part all games use elements from previous games. That's what he said. So for my advice, look at elements in previous years, and put them together.
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Yea, this morning at 8 AM I watched all the game animations since 2003, and a round of each game...
Anyone know where I could find an archive from b4 2003? it starts getting iffy at that point. |
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As for game animations, I believe that 2003 was the first year for them. Video from 1992-2002 should be on youtube if you have the time to find it. |
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My standing position on the game is a Aim High repeatish. Involve small (solid on the outside) balls (like tennis balls or cushiony ones like stress balls) have to be shot into a upper goal or into a lower goal that has a slight uphill. I am into the consideration of some interesting obstacles in the field whic would probably involve the end game (thinking of something that has an impact on the devision of the field like a series of mini bumbs the robot could easily get stuck on, or possibly flip.
Alteration Idea to the game: corner dumping goals instead of shooting high. In second place is: one of the interesting ball holding mechanisms that come every now and then (looks like the trailer yr). Just unsure of the whole photswitches then (unless theres also side goals) third: some racing/stacking game: the racing was almost like to first time they tried that and they might plan to continue that in the pattern, probably add the box stacking game and robots have to be able to break through them easily. Just some food for thought... |
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(For those that don't get it, the goal counting software in Aim High was notoriously unreliable, despite good hardware. The manual backup worked far better.) |
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Going with the Aim High idea, I think there will be a bumpy field, or something of the sort. The game pieces would be harder to collect, and teams would use Andymark's new pneumatic tires to traverse the bumpy terrain.
Scoring would be like either Aim High, Lunacy, or a different method. |
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If it does then it would be by accident. |
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On the topic of the size of the game pieces:
(all speculation so far is that they are balls) After competing in FIRST last year my robotics team competed in the Ontario Skills Competition. This game was similiar to Aim High except that the robots were 2'x2'x2' and the balls were probably the size of tennis balls. With this in mind i think that the game pieces need to proportional to the size of the robot and quite frankly i can't imagine having those game pieces on something the size of our FRC bot. Then again this is FIRST so who knows? On the topic of game design: From what I am thinking right now there will be one center goalpost (think american football's goalpost) with a box for balls to land in on either end. You would shoot through the goalpost and have the ball land in your alliances box for two points a ball or you could shoot into your alliances box without it going through the center goalpost for one point. This(the goalposts and boxes) would all be on a center platform with ramps at either end. |
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Last year we had one amber, and one alliance light per team's driver station. Then a stack of an amber, red, and blue light at the score table. That would mean an order of 8 red, 8 blue, and 14 amber for two more fields. However, it does not appear that they have ordered enough red and blue lights for the two new fields. BUT, We had 16 green lights per field from last year. Plenty to use this year as a new alliances light, and 4 new green lights. Perfect for a 2-2-2 set up. |
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From what I understand they are keeping the fields the same size so where would they put this 3rd alliance so that they have no advantage or disadvantage compared to the other two alliances?
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But, then again, they did have Rack n' Roll and Logomotion... |
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I love your idea of the goal post. Just the thought in my head: A mixture of Aim High, Breakaway, and Logomotion. There will be a few sets of goal posts on each side of the field, with varying scores (a la Logomotion). One of the goal posts on each side are for counter-scoring, which will be from 12 to 24 inches in diameter, much smaller than the other ones. When robots throw balls through their goal posts, the human players collect the balls and return them to the field (a la Breakaway), by throwing them into the field. BUT, if they throw the balls returned to them into the opponent's counter-scoring goal posts, they'll lower their opponent's score. Balls that miss are returned back to the field via a slope on each side of the field. For legal rule reasons to make the game fair, thrown balls from human players must go farther than a certain line on the field, somewhere between the alliance wall and the halfway section. For the end game, robots climb their opponent's slopes on the opposite end of the field, and launch as many balls as they can into either their own scoring goals, for a set amount of points, or their counter-scoring goals for a larger bonus. Autonomous will be human players controlling the robot via connect to collect the balls from the field (which are placed at random). Just something I thought of. What do you think? |
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His example to us: Lunacy. Lunacy used the game piece collecting and launching form Aim High and the trailer from the game with the trailer (I forgot.). He said Dean told him that he wanted a hard to maneuver playing field, just like Maize Craze, the first FRC competition. His last words to us: If you look at all of the previous years' things, including any year, not just ones 6 or 7 years ago, and piece things together with the hints, you can easily guess the game. He also told us to stay off Chief Delphi. Apparently the endless threads about game hints are bad for our health. :rolleyes: |
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Now, just thinking about (maybe some influence from me not wanting a 2011 repeat), I do not believe it will involve directly picking something up (more like throwing it or shooting it) and I understand the small ball issue and that's why I was kind-of thinking more along the lines of a soft ball that is maybe slightly smaller than a soccer ball while bigger than a tennis ball.
So its BIG, but small. And who says you can't play football with a round ball? now that for the most part we have plenty of ideas on the game plan, I want to think about the obstacles/end-game and develop that aspect some... Off to work |
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On a side note, I used Chrome's developers tools to see if maybe the hint was hidden on the page, like in the comments of the source code. Nothing there. |
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Okay everyone says to look at old games but no one is looking much past '06... What if the sensors are used to see if a see-saw like from '01's Diabolical Dynamics has broken the plane of parallel. You would need high frequency sensors for something like that as it is likely to teeter often...
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1) Panel Mount Selectable Steady/Flashing LED, 12V, qty. 2500. Every single robot has carried one since 2007. I don't expect that that will change this year, given that quantity. You'll pick it up 1/7/2011 with the KOP. 2) Control Tower Stack Light, Amber Steady, qty 14. Not enough for all 19 fields, but almost certainly enough to equip the two new fields, replace that part on any field needing it, and still have a few spares lying around. The other Control Tower Stack Light quantities indicate that they're for the two new fields; there also are a few other items associated with them that seem to be in spare/new field quantities. |
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-Nick |
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I like the idea about multiple goals(more than 3). It explains the reasoning for so many photo sensors, and is much more sensible than using them to see if a robot has broken a plane. Furthermore it seems like a game where older teams could excel, yet easy enough and understandable enough for newer teams and spectators.
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Week 1: 6 Week 2: 12 Week 3: 9 Week 4: 13 Week 5: 12 Week 6: 6 Week 7: 1 |
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EDIT: I am thinking of the nerf balls like Aim High. And Frisbees would not be hard to pick up. In the Rack and Roll kit of parts, there was a vacuum system. It could be used here. |
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In any case, previous hints have been on the esoteric side, so my thought is that the list of parts is superfluous. And speaking with people who have been involved with putting together fields, almost everything on the list has been there before. |
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I don't believe anyone has posted the Technical Information of the Switch that was included in the BOM in this thread yet so here it is:
![]() (Thanks to Chris Elston for posting a link to the PDF containing this info.) The switch seems to be a little more heavy than what would be used for a minibot... (Requires about 4x the force as last year's tower, IIRC) |
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I've got it!
Rockwell -- Rock + Well A well is something which contains a reservoir of liquid. A liquid rock would be --- LAVA. The field will be made of "liquid hot magma"! |
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At least football is better than when people were saying hockey. I'd see that working out to be a similar design as breakaway, which was not a fun game in my opinion.
But, people also call me crazy because Overdrive was my favorite so does my opinion even matter? ;p |
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