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-   -   First Official 2012 Game Hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98583)

alectronic 03-12-2011 00:34

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Line (Post 1088226)
Interesting. 2 of Allen Bradley stack units can produce noise / music / sounds. I wonder why.

The field system uses sounds to alert FTA's and scorekeepers of various warnings. Those probably go with the new fields being built.

Tristan Lall 03-12-2011 03:45

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jgw (Post 1088199)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall (Post 1088197)
yet it's important enough to the game that teams will need it after kickoff to test with.

As I see it, the only things the teams will have is the signal light, just like previous years. All of the rest will be buried in the field.

That was awkward phrasing on my part. I agree that most of the 2 500 amber lights are for the teams, and the rest belongs to FIRST.

What I meant to imply was that if the game pieces are small and need to be counted quickly (as suggested by the previous posters who noted the high-speed counters and photosensors with a narrow field of view), teams that want to practice effectively (which includes practice dealing with the quirks of the field) may want to replicate the scoring apparatus, electronics and all. (For example, during a simulated game, keeping track of the state of 200 small balls might be more difficult than the state of a couple dozen large ones, as we had in 2006.)

Of course, this is merely speculation. I do recognize that the narrow field of view of a photosensor can also imply game pieces of indeterminate size, close to the sensor.

Wayne TenBrink 03-12-2011 10:39

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
If the IR sensors have a narrow (8 degree?) field of view, then they are not likely to be used to count game pieces going into a large target opening (i.e. 2006 goal or the top of a basket). There are better sensors for that.

Besides counting game pieces, the high speed recorders could be used to measure the speed of an object passing between two sets of sensors. These items could also be configured into a linear or rotary encoder to measure speed and displacement of some moving part of a field element.

With the Kinect supposedly being used as part of the drivers station during autonomous, I expect to see moveable field elements. They would be repositioned after the bots are set on the field, and HP's would use the Kinect to steer the robot to them.

3098callahan 03-12-2011 11:31

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ssmitka (Post 1088082)
Maybe it's nothing related to the supplies, but the name of the company, Rockwell. Bill's other post was titled Over the River and Through the Woods...and now "rock"well...just my 2 cents. :yikes:



Rock wall?
:ahh: :confused: yay woah yay:)

dodar 03-12-2011 12:08

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiifi (Post 1088300)
Now I am imagining a field shaped like a triangle... Slopes going down each side, the robot's goal is to score into a goal like a pinball game. Except the field is made out of regolith so you can't actually climb the triangle without traction. At the same time the top of the triangle is exactly like Breakaway's bumps. The game specific piece being a... bowling ball!!

I can already see kick-off... Telling us that we need to make our robots robust because there will be bowling balls flying around.

On top of all of this they will still make it a water game by creating a fountain of water all along the pinnacle of the triangle. The water is just a light stream of course, but we have to protect our robots from water damage!

I predict the 2012 game will be the best game ever!

Then the new Einstein field MC would be Bob Barker because that sounds exactly like Plinko!

zaphodp.jensen 03-12-2011 13:24

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
EDITED TO MATCH EXTRA INFORMATION:

The math that I did:
2500 Panel Lights = 2500 Teams --> Thus, this is one order, Possibly for everything they are getting from Rockwell.

14 Amber Stack Lights (Or 14 E-stop Buttons) / 3 per Alliance * 2 Alliances Per field - 2 Spares = 2 Extra Fields Being made this year --> That knocks out all of the remaining stack lights

~250 High Speed Counters & 500 Photosensors = 2 Photosensors to One Counter = Two Seperate and equal scoring Goals for Each Alliance (Like the two Logomotion racks)

500 Photosensors/ 19 Fields = 25 Sensors per field = 12 per Alliance + 1 Spare

250 Counters / 19 Fields = 12 Counters Per Field = 6 counters per alliance

6 counters per alliance = 6 Scoring Levels?

168 Roller Limit Switches= Some lever Element or Robot Interaction Element on Field? These style of switches are not like the standard microswitch that were used on the Tower for Logomotion. These are heavier duty than those, and the roller indicates that something is designed to roll or slide past the switch. With a 99% probability, I can say that these switches aren't intended for user interface, or something like the minibot tower...
168 Roller Limit Switches / 19 Fields / 2 Alliances = 4 Switches Per Alliance


As for Tennis Balls as game pieces, to make a field reset faster what if the field was a gently sloped "^", where the dropped tennis balls roll down to the ends of the field, and were collected in a large hopper? This would eliminate the driving hazards and speed up the field reset... This would also explain the "Heavy" Field, because surface would need to support the robots... And why else would they need the high speed counters? A normal counter would easily have the frequency to count, say, soccer balls rolling through a photogate...

And if the balls rolled back to a hopper, that would mean that the switches could be used to trigger a "Dumping" mechanism that would dump that hopper into a robot, maybe scoring extra points?

This would also be an interesting twist of strategy, making floor pickup less effective due to the game pieces "running away" and a robot that can quickly and effectively travel across the field to collect from the dumpers more effective than floor pickup.

thefro526 03-12-2011 13:31

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Pierce, just so you know, there will be 19 fields this year, not 15. This will skew your math a little bit, but many of your points seem valid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill's Blog 9/15/11
We’re building two additional competition fields this year bringing the total number of fields on the road to 19 (if you include the one packaged and staged for emergency deployment if something should happen to one of the other fields as it travels between events).


jdunston94 03-12-2011 13:36

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
all of you have been focusing on the really technical side. at first glance ANCHOR stuck out in my head. i'm sure that some people have thought that this year is the 100th anniversary of the sinking of the titanic.... now how perfect would that be?

zaphodp.jensen 03-12-2011 13:45

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thefro526 (Post 1088341)
Pierce, just so you know, there will be 19 fields this year, not 15. This will skew your math a little bit, but many of your points seem valid.

Thanks! I will re-evaluate!

Engineerette 03-12-2011 13:51

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eagle33199 (Post 1088294)
I would argue against wiffle balls - they have holes in them, which would make the photosensors (presumably used for tracking scoring in some way) unreliable - if it manages to "see" straight through the middle of a ball due to the holes, it could count that ball twice (the beam would break when the ball first enters, resume in the middle, then break again on the second half). The biggest thing I get from this is that the game pieces are likely solid (referring to the exterior - they could be hollow like a tennis ball, or solid all the way through like a billiard ball), spherical, and numerous. In other words, no Orbit Balls!

Alternatively, they could be similar to ball pit balls. They're hollow plastic, come in bright colors, and definitely have similar flight properties to wiffle balls since they're so light. Couldn't cause too much damage either.

Ninja_Bait 03-12-2011 14:48

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jdunston94 (Post 1088342)
all of you have been focusing on the really technical side. at first glance ANCHOR stuck out in my head. i'm sure that some people have thought that this year is the 100th anniversary of the sinking of the titanic.... now how perfect would that be?

The water game strikes again! First off, there are a few ideas floating around that work with this Titanic theme. Regolith is an iceberg-like surface. Bill's throwing around loaded sentences about stormy weather. A sloped field would be like the tilted and sinking Titanic. But the question remains, why make a game about a failure in design that killed hundreds of people?

I think we should focus more on the technical aspects anyway. Let's imagine for a minute that there is a hidden message in the list. They wouldn't order parts specifically for their secret message, so they would have had to do what you just did, which is go out on a limb and see if there was anything that could have a double meaning on the list. Except that it's such a stretch that you could do it for any item on this list! Example:

Quote:

"SIGNAL light" means our robot has to do semaphore! "STACK light" means that we will have to stack things! "stack LIGHT" means that they will be lightweight!" "PHOTOreceptor" means the robot has to use a camera to read the semaphore! "limit SWITCH" means that we will switch alliances mid-match! "LIMIT switch" means that there will be a time limit on the match!
This a road we should not travel down.

bhaidet 03-12-2011 17:12

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Obviously something on the field will be happening fast enough (and/or often enough) that human judges would have a hard time. This could be anything moving on the field: field elements, game pieces, or even robots.

Whatever is happening that needs to be counted, it seems like the timing of the counting is critical. Maybe the match time will not count continuously, or maybe an event on the field must take place within a certain time. eg. If there was a plate on the floor in front of the feeder stations last year connected to a ROLLER LIMIT SWITCH and as soon as you backed away from the plate a timer would start and you would have to place the tube (detected by a PHOTOTRANSISTOR) within a certain amount of time or it would be invalid. The VERY HIGH SPEED COUNTER could be part of the timing mechanism or could keep track of the scores (it seems like the scoring will be faster than hanging tubes).

I also really like the idea someone posted a while ago about the counter being used in the finale when a bunch of mechanisms fire at once.

Although this is even more conjecture than the rest of my post, at the beginning of this thread everyone was talking about the photogates detecting "breaking a plane" and the only time I ever hear "did the ball break the plane" is while watching a football game. also: in a football game, the clock stops for all kinds of stuff, something that a VERY HIGH SPEED COUNTER could be used for.

Even if its not football (unlikely) the number (10-12 per field someone calculated) is a LOT. Even in Breakaway, there were only two goals per team, so unless there are bunch of goals worth different points (imagining aim high + ski ball) they could plan on lining up the photogates in areas to make "end zones".



I would LOVE a mixture of Aim High and Ski Ball. :ahh: The programmers would have fun.


edit: flying ski-ball game could use all kinds of balls (even tennis) and would explain the extra polycarb if the field was going to be encased for safety

Garret 03-12-2011 17:56

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
I don't know if anyone said anything about this earlier, but (according to wikipedia) 2012 has been designated Alan Turing Year "commemorating the mathematician, computer pioneer, and code-breaker on the centennial of Turing's birth."

IndySam 03-12-2011 20:09

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
This has to be by far the fewest posts for a game hint ever. We would normally get this many posts in a matter of hours. Interesting!

CNettles11 03-12-2011 20:11

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Nobody wants to look up each individual part. Oh wait, that's what i'm doing right now!

Tetraman 03-12-2011 20:31

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IndySam (Post 1088424)
This has to be by far the fewest posts for a game hint ever. We would normally get this many posts in a matter of hours. Interesting!

I think that everyone is getting tired of speculation after we spent since the day after the championship in that "2012 game thread".

Plus I agree that it's too much work to really think about this hint. Poems and pictures draw the crowd easy because they are simple.

Or it could be a great conspiracy by the GDC, formulating a game hint! The participation in the game isn't as necessary! Must be a game hint! Has to be.

Duke461 03-12-2011 20:43

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tetraman (Post 1088440)

Or it could be a great conspiracy by the GDC, formulating a game hint! The participation in the game isn't as necessary! Must be a game hint! Has to be.

15 second teleoperated period, followed by 1:45 of autonomous play, followed by a 15 second autonomous minibot race around a little track? :D

JaneYoung 03-12-2011 20:57

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IndySam (Post 1088424)
This has to be by far the fewest posts for a game hint ever. We would normally get this many posts in a matter of hours. Interesting!

This type of hint locks out/shuts down the CD members who are creative problem solvers but are not techies. Like me. It also impacts rookie input, I'd imagine. If they send out another one that is more along a less technical line, there will be a lot of speculating and fun posts from the non-techies, I'm sure.

This lack kind of shows you another side to it, doesn't it?

Jane

Akash Rastogi 03-12-2011 21:07

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JaneYoung (Post 1088455)
This type of hint locks out/shuts down the CD members who are creative problem solvers but are not techies. Like me. It also impacts rookie input, I'd imagine. If they send out another one that is more along a less technical line, there will be a lot of speculating and fun posts from the non-techies, I'm sure.

This lack kind of shows you another side to it, doesn't it?

Jane


If a student has the ability to use google, they should have the ability to give some sort of input if they want, regardless of being a rookie or non-techies.

vic burg 03-12-2011 21:12

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Well, going off of what I know for sure has been on field before (don't know 100% but I do notice some things that have NOT been on the field before), the AMBER light, which when lit will be quite similar to red since it will be orangish and the cameras will have a hard time distinguishing between these lights, which could easily be part of the challenge of autonomous mode is doing a task where the robot has to do something with the lights. There are 14 of the Ambers lights as well, which would be one per field if going by the count of others things that are on the field of 1 each. However, there is also the hood for the Amber light for the robots so that's another something in there, with a count of 2500 so that's obviously for each robot (although I think we'll need more seeing as how team numbers are way up in the 3000s).
Also, the count of 14 e-stops not 19 confuses me slightly since we'll be having 19 fields.
Also, the RSLogix stuff at the bottom.... only 1 and 2 of those items. Quick Google search tells me it's from Rockwell (obviously) and it's a programming software. Now, I don't know if it's just for the field seeing as how small of an amount they are donating but most likely. Do not know if it has been used before, though.
Some interesting things going on, though. :)

CNettles11 03-12-2011 21:19

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
From looking up some of these parts, I can tell you that an object will more than likely be passing through a goal of some kind. Expect balls.

thefro526 03-12-2011 21:29

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CNettles11 (Post 1088425)
Nobody wants to look up each individual part. Oh wait, that's what i'm doing right now!

Chris Elston already did.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=55

Seems like people don't read through the thread in it's entirety.

JaneYoung 03-12-2011 21:34

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi (Post 1088458)
If a student has the ability to use google, they should have the ability to give some sort of input if they want, regardless of being a rookie or non-techies.


Actually, Akash, I was thinking of rookie teams - not just the students.

Jane

CNettles11 03-12-2011 21:39

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thefro526 (Post 1088464)
Chris Elston already did.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=55

Seems like people don't read through the thread in it's entirety.

Our team split up the parts and assigned a few people the parts. We're trying to familiarize the team with the field and what parts will be on it/how they're used.

vic burg 03-12-2011 21:44

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thefro526 (Post 1088464)
Chris Elston already did.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=55

Seems like people don't read through the thread in it's entirety.

While it's not one of the longest thread we have, it is quite a bit to read through in one sitting if you are a more creative mind like myself and get distracted (as I just did with Narnia) easily or if you wanted to get your ideas down before you forgot them. I do understand reading threads through fully but sometimes you just don't want to.
Thank you though for relinking us to that.

Cavins240 03-12-2011 21:52

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
I was on the Web for about 30 minutes and came up with this list of sights if anyone is interested...


http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%20BRADLEY/1492CJ64 (FIRST 3 ARE THE SAME JUST DIFFERENT AMOUNT)

http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%20BRADLEY/1492EAJ35
http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%20BRADLEY/1492EB3
http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%20BRADLEY/1492SP3
http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%20BRADLEY/1492W4
http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%20BRADLEY/1492W4G

http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%20BRADLEY/1492WFB4

http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%20BRADLEY/1585ADD4JD

http://www.plchardware.com/Products/...4TBDM-0M3.aspx
http://www.plchardware.com/Products/...-M4TBJM-1.aspx
http://www.plchardware.com/Products/...4TBJM-0M6.aspx
http://www.plchardware.com/Products/...-M4TBJM-5.aspx

http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%2...EY/1606XLP100E
http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%20BRADLEY/1606XLP50B

http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%2.../1732E16CFGM12
http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%20BRADLEY/1738AENT
http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%2.../1738VHSC24M23

http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%20BRADLEY/199DR1

http://www.plchardware.com/Products/...P-T10C4A6.aspx

http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%20BRADLEY/42SML7100
http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%20BRADLEY/42SMR7100

http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%20BRADLEY/602152

http://www.plchardware.com/Products/RA-800F-1MM2.aspx

http://www.plchardware.com/Products/...CSDDBSLD4.aspx

http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%20BRADLEY/855ELL24B
http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%20BRADLEY/855ELL24R

http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%2.../855PBB12ME522

http://www.plchardware.com/Products/RA-855T-B00XN7.aspx
http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%20BRADLEY/855TB24TA1
http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%20BRADLEY/855TB24TL3
http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%20BRADLEY/855TB24TL4
http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%20BRADLEY/855TB24TL5
http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%20BRADLEY/855TB24TL6
http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%20BRADLEY/855TBCBC
http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%20BRADLEY/855TBPM10

879D-F4AET5M-1

http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%2...Y/888DM4AC60M3

http://www.plchardware.com/Products/...M4AE1-0M3.aspx

http://www.plchardware.com/Products/RA-889D-E4AE-2.aspx

http://www.plccenter.com/Buy/ALLEN%20BRADLEY/889DF4AE5

http://www.plchardware.com/Products/...F4AEDE-10.aspx

http://www.plchardware.com/Products/...R4ACDE-10.aspx

http://www.plchardware.com/Products/...-R4ACDE-5.aspx

889-V12AH-5

http://www.plchardware.com/Products/...N-R4AF-6F.aspx

http://www.plchardware.com/Products/...RLD000ENE.aspx

http://www.plchardware.com/Products/...RLD300ENE.aspx

nathannfm 03-12-2011 22:09

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vic burg (Post 1088459)
Well, going off of what I know for sure has been on field before (don't know 100% but I do notice some things that have NOT been on the field before), the AMBER light, which when lit will be quite similar to red since it will be orangish and the cameras will have a hard time distinguishing between these lights, which could easily be part of the challenge of autonomous mode is doing a task where the robot has to do something with the lights. There are 14 of the Ambers lights as well, which would be one per field if going by the count of others things that are on the field of 1 each. However, there is also the hood for the Amber light for the robots so that's another something in there, with a count of 2500 so that's obviously for each robot (although I think we'll need more seeing as how team numbers are way up in the 3000s).
Also, the count of 14 e-stops not 19 confuses me slightly since we'll be having 19 fields.
Also, the RSLogix stuff at the bottom.... only 1 and 2 of those items. Quick Google search tells me it's from Rockwell (obviously) and it's a programming software. Now, I don't know if it's just for the field seeing as how small of an amount they are donating but most likely. Do not know if it has been used before, though.
Some interesting things going on, though. :)


Remember, they are building 2 new fields so that's why there are 2 (or a backup 3rd) of some things, or in the case of e-stop buttons one per driver station per 2 fields with one backup each.
And I have seen a few teams on here with 4000#'s but not every number is still active, so I think 2500 is plenty. (most of this was addressed in previous posts)

DSM33 03-12-2011 22:21

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
The mention of 6 scoring zones per side intrigued me. What if this year's game was something like a mix of Aim High and Breakaway? There would be two stacks of 3 goals at three different heights (imagine LogoMotion now) and they were all worth different amounts of points (probably the same-ish scoring as LogoMotion: 3=highest, 2=middle, 1=lowest). This would prevent the decreased scoring throughout the match like last year, instead teams would have to decide strategically if pushing a load of balls in the low goal is as beneficial as shooting them into the top goal.

To further increase the strategic element of the game, a light is present in each goal and switches randomly between goals throughout the match. The goal with the light on is worth 5 points rather than its normal point value.

Just the game I came up with in my head after reading this thread :D

Andrew Lawrence 03-12-2011 22:29

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DSM33 (Post 1088473)
The mention of 6 scoring zones per side intrigued me. What if this year's game was something like a mix of Aim High and Breakaway? There would be two stacks of 3 goals at three different heights (imagine LogoMotion now) and they were all worth different amounts of points (probably the same-ish scoring as LogoMotion: 3=highest, 2=middle, 1=lowest). This would prevent the decreased scoring throughout the match like last year, instead teams would have to decide strategically if pushing a load of balls in the low goal is as beneficial as shooting them into the top goal.

To further increase the strategic element of the game, a light is present in each goal and switches randomly between goals throughout the match. The goal with the light on is worth 5 points rather than its normal point value.

Just the game I came up with in my head after reading this thread :D

Sounds fun! I like the idea of having a certain goal area being worth more points than the others, and then switching off to another goal area.

zaphodp.jensen 03-12-2011 23:21

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vic burg (Post 1088459)
Well, going off of what I know for sure has been on field before (don't know 100% but I do notice some things that have NOT been on the field before), the AMBER light, which when lit will be quite similar to red since it will be orangish and the cameras will have a hard time distinguishing between these lights, which could easily be part of the challenge of autonomous mode is doing a task where the robot has to do something with the lights. There are 14 of the Ambers lights as well, which would be one per field if going by the count of others things that are on the field of 1 each. However, there is also the hood for the Amber light for the robots so that's another something in there, with a count of 2500 so that's obviously for each robot (although I think we'll need more seeing as how team numbers are way up in the 3000s).
Also, the count of 14 e-stops not 19 confuses me slightly since we'll be having 19 fields.
Also, the RSLogix stuff at the bottom.... only 1 and 2 of those items. Quick Google search tells me it's from Rockwell (obviously) and it's a programming software. Now, I don't know if it's just for the field seeing as how small of an amount they are donating but most likely. Do not know if it has been used before, though.
Some interesting things going on, though. :)

If you check out my post above, vic burg, you will see the math that I deduced and:
Originally Posted by Bill's Blog 9/15/11
We’re building two additional competition fields this year bringing the total number of fields on the road to 19 (if you include the one packaged and staged for emergency deployment if something should happen to one of the other fields as it travels between events).

They only have to acquire the materials needed to build two more fields, they already have the necessary equipment for the other 17... Thus the reduced number of e-stops, 6 per field for two alliances, plus one master or spare per field...

DavisC 04-12-2011 00:50

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Now, a bit ago I went through some old game hints and remember some methods of looking at the picture, like once it had a low-resolution and people made relations with that.

Has anyone else noticed that by default this picture is quite SMALL and needs to be zoomed to be read? (It's beginning to look a lot like ... tennis balls)
Also while it would've made since for tennis balls last year, I think it only should mean its more likely this year b/c the GDC always comes up with several ideas and decides to hold off on some for next yrs picks.

Andrew Lawrence 04-12-2011 01:00

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
I don't know why, but I'm kinda just against tennis balls. I just do not want them in the 2012 FRC game. I know they have been used before, but that was when the robots were small enough to look like FTC bots. This is FRC. There are a multitude of other reasons why I don't want tennis balls, but I won't go into detail right now.

mesamb1 04-12-2011 01:19

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DavisC (Post 1088488)
Has anyone else noticed that by default this picture is quite SMALL and needs to be zoomed to be read? (It's beginning to look a lot like ... tennis balls)

This is not guaranteed from browser to browser to be required since it depends on your monitor resolution/Internet browser.

What about a maze game? there are multiple exits from the maze, or your minibot goes to the end of the maze. It would use the sensors, limit switches perhaps to indicate your completion, or entering a new zone. just a thought

DavisC 04-12-2011 02:00

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
I'm getting to the point where I think we need a hint for the game hint...

but no such luck, going to have to wait for hint #2

Jash_J 04-12-2011 02:17

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CNettles11 (Post 1088462)
From looking up some of these parts, I can tell you that an object will more than likely be passing through a goal of some kind. Expect balls.

Balls such as footballs? I noticed on the night before the hint they said that the elfbot had the hint tucked under his arm, signalling that usually football players hold their ball like this, im assuming a football is a speculation we can consider?

Radical Pi 04-12-2011 03:17

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Been doing some math on this one, and I'm seeing enough electronics for 21 fields, not 19. It's the only way I can get the numbers on the more expensive electronics to come out evenly.

The 63 ArmorPoint Communications devices, divided among 21 fields means 3 per field, which makes sense (1 for each Alliance plus a spare). The 252 counters would mean 4 counters per Alliance. So either 4 goals, or 2 if they use Breakaway's 2 sensor goal design (though Breakaway's goal counters and high speed don't seem to fit in the same sentence to me).

The 168 limit switches, at 21 fields, is 8 per field. So either 4 per side with no spares (to match a set of 4 goals?), or one per robot with 2 spare. I'm guessing the latter, since I haven't seen any recent game where they haven't had spare electronics for the field. So, some action for each robot, possibly endgame, that involves triggering a limit switch. Human player is also an option too, but I agree with earlier posters that this switch doesn't seem to fit human interaction

Jim Wilks 04-12-2011 07:48

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Radical Pi (Post 1088507)
Been doing some math on this one, and I'm seeing enough electronics for 21 fields, not 19. It's the only way I can get the numbers on the more expensive electronics to come out evenly.

Standard practice with this sort of equipment is to buy spares. Often 10% is the figure used. In the case of 19 fields, that's enough for 2 more fields. Nobody wants a critical system down waiting for delivery of a replacement part.

CNettles11 04-12-2011 08:10

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quite possibly, although I speculate that it will be a basketball style game that includes a "Slam Dunk" in the endgame where your robot hangs from the goal (Read: Heavy steel field element,). Polycarbonate is heavy stuff. FIRST might have bought extra thick polycarbonate for backboards on the basketball goals.

vic burg 04-12-2011 10:40

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Yup, pretty much what jgw said. I am now confused though - do we have an exact number for how many fields we'll be getting? I apologize if it's been said already but I've been all sorts of numbers and apparently I just can't keep up with the smart masses on here.

zaphodp.jensen 04-12-2011 11:00

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Yes, there are now 19 fields. Nineteen (For all the legalese people that like text numbers instead of numerical...). They are building 2 extra fields, so we now have 19 instead of 17 last year...

vic burg 04-12-2011 11:23

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Alrighty, thanks Pierce. Well then, with the parts that equal 21 fields, we are probably dedicating 1 field to Hawaii, 1 to Israel (normal, though).
The weeks with the number of regionals/districts are:
Week 1: 5 + 2 qualifiers
Week 2: 9 (1 being the Israel thing) + 4 qualifiers
Week 3: 9 + 2 qualifiers
Week 4: 12 + 3 qualifiers (hello busy! Also, two regionals in Seattle same weekend so 2 fields over there & Hawaii getting a field plenty of time ahead - 15 fields total, though)
Week 5: 11 + 3 qualifiers (More busy with Minnesota getting 2 fields as well and the same for Texas)
Week 6: 6
Week 7: 2

So for sure need at least 19 fields (since some will be stuck or not get there in time between weeks) and having enough spare parts for 3 fields would be the best idea ever especially for week 4 & 5 (that is if they aren't already planning to have 3 spare field for those 2 weeks). I could easily see problems then (end of March), not that I want them to happen but, with 29 regionals/qualifiers going on in the 2 week span.... it will be tense. But also then Hawaii having it's field early.

EricH 04-12-2011 11:32

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vic burg (Post 1088548)
Alrighty, thanks Pierce. Well then, with the parts that equal 21 fields,

19. Bill said they were raising the number of fields to 19, not 21.

SenorZ 04-12-2011 11:40

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
I'll start by saying I have not read ALL the previous posts (sacreligious, no?).

I think there will be some sort of projectile/ball used. Seems to follow a loose historical pattern.

MAYBE the there will be a two- or three-tier point-scoring system, and robots can slide a shield, by way of some trigger, to cover/uncover a tier for their alliance, or their opponents (probably with some time limit, and a return-to-low point setting). The projectiles will then go to a hopper, and be re-dispensed somewhere on the field.

Now what type of robot would you make? A fast get-to-the-switch robot, a collect-and-shoot robot, or one that can do both with great mediocrity?

Andrew Lawrence 04-12-2011 11:54

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
I'm hoping for a game with an actual competitive drive. 3 on 3, the way it's supposed to be. If it's anything like 2000, I'll be mad. I want to be able to score for my team, block the opponent's, and defend my side from the opponents, and the opponent's side from themselves.

And the only way I'll have minibots (I decided last night), is to have them being thrown through hula hoops suspended about 10 feet in the air, and have the robots catch them.

EDIT: The hoops will be on fire. :D

DavisC 04-12-2011 12:25

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
So have we decided that there is 1 more color stackable light than previous years?

If so I'm thinking, Autonomous-Kinect-Teleop-End

nathannfm 04-12-2011 12:43

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DavisC (Post 1088565)
So have we decided that there is 1 more color stackable light than previous years?

If so I'm thinking, Autonomous-Kinect-Teleop-End

Good thought, but I think they said somewhere the Kinect would be optional (like it should be) so I don't think they would have an entire segment of the game that it has to be used in, but the light might have something to do with it.

Also it would be really nice if people would read everything that has been said, I am seeing triple posts of the same ideas, and it's especially annoying when those ideas are wrong. :P

bhaidet 04-12-2011 12:54

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
It seems like most people describing gameplay are settling on one of two options. Either an aim-high/basketball type game with multiple ski-ball-like targets, or a football type game where you need to break a plane with the robot.

The photo sensors could be used either of these games, but the high speed counters point to a multi-goal game and the pseudo-hint on Facebook points towards football.

Unless a third, better option comes out, we will need to wait for the second clue to pick basketball or football.


Can anyone think how one robot being kinect-controlled during autonomous (check the kinect usage thread) could fit into either of these game types?

zaphodp.jensen 04-12-2011 13:16

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DavisC (Post 1088565)
So have we decided that there is 1 more color stackable light than previous years?

If so I'm thinking, Autonomous-Kinect-Teleop-End

Uhh, I don't believe so, because the amber stack lights are always there, they are just at the bottom of the stacks at the alliance stations, and I believe are for indicating E-stops. The stack lights aren't there in high enough quantities to indicate them being used on all of the fields...

Unless you guys are talking about the clear stack light, which there are 32 of, which would be one per field with 13 extra... If there are that many extra, that's indicative of that item being subject to heavy wear and tear. Maybe there is one of those lights near the center of the field?

MattC9 04-12-2011 13:26

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Hey what about frisbees? They can be shot trough the goal, on the three diffrent levels! I would freaking love frisbees as game elements

Andrew Lawrence 04-12-2011 14:12

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MattC9 (Post 1088575)
Hey what about frisbees? They can be shot trough the goal, on the three diffrent levels! I would freaking love frisbees as game elements

Yeah, but imagine all of the difficulties in not only picking them up, but also throwing them.

MattC9 04-12-2011 14:28

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256 (Post 1088580)
Yeah, but imagine all of the difficulties in not only picking them up, but also throwing them.

Could we see a 2005 type thing, pressure pads? And I don't thing trowing them would be that hard.

jeleser 04-12-2011 16:47

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bhaidet (Post 1088571)
or a football type game where you need to break a plane with the robot.

Can anyone think how one robot being kinect-controlled during autonomous (check the kinect usage thread) could fit into either of these game types?

If the game was based on football, possibly an autonomous similar to the kickoff of a football game? The robots could have balls either in possession or pick them up and shoot them to the opponents end of the field as close to the scoring zone as possible? And as far as Kinect use, maybe something similar to 2008's hybrid mode. I wasn't a member that year, so I'm just going on what I've read in the archive game manual, but maybe the robot will still be running on autonomous code that can be slightly altered by Kinect input (distance of kickoff, position/direction, etc)

Akash Rastogi 04-12-2011 16:50

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jeleser (Post 1088606)
If the game was based on football, possibly an autonomous similar to the kickoff of a football game? The robots could have balls either in possession or pick them up and shoot them to the opponents end of the field as close to the scoring zone as possible? And as far as Kinect use, maybe something similar to 2008's hybrid mode. I wasn't a member that year, so I'm just going on what I've read in the archive game manual, but maybe the robot will still be running on autonomous code that can be slightly altered by Kinect input (distance of kickoff, position/direction, etc)

Using a Kinect to juke out other robots in robot football? Would be totally awesome.

Andrew Lawrence 04-12-2011 16:57

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jeleser (Post 1088606)
If the game was based on football, possibly an autonomous similar to the kickoff of a football game? The robots could have balls either in possession or pick them up and shoot them to the opponents end of the field as close to the scoring zone as possible? And as far as Kinect use, maybe something similar to 2008's hybrid mode. I wasn't a member that year, so I'm just going on what I've read in the archive game manual, but maybe the robot will still be running on autonomous code that can be slightly altered by Kinect input (distance of kickoff, position/direction, etc)

I can see it now: Human players acting like real football players in autonomous, and the robot following their motions - Hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle, SPIN AROUND AND JUMP, hustle, hustle, PASS, CATCH, hustle, hustle, TOUCHDOWN!!!

They do this all while standing in one place. :)

jeleser 04-12-2011 17:02

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
People love their sports entertainment; a football game would definitely broaden the audience. Imagine the look on some people's faces when we say "Oh yeah, we built a robot that can play football. No big deal." :eek:

plnyyanks 04-12-2011 17:04

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256 (Post 1088609)
They do this all while standing in one place. :)

That's easy to fix. Just mount the Kinect to a minibot, and use a second Kinect to control the minibot so that the first Kinect follows the human player. It's foolproof. :D

Rangel 04-12-2011 17:49

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256 (Post 1088580)
Yeah, but imagine all of the difficulties in not only picking them up, but also throwing them.

All the more reason it would be frisbees.

Andrew Lawrence 04-12-2011 17:56

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb) (Post 1088628)
All the more reason it would be frisbees.

I like your thinking son! :D

Andrew Lawrence 04-12-2011 17:57

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jeleser (Post 1088611)
People love their sports entertainment; a football game would definitely broaden the audience. Imagine the look on some people's faces when we say "Oh yeah, we built a robot that can play football. No big deal." :eek:

Imagine showing the school's football team! It's been a dream of mine to build a football-playing robot, and have it compete with the team.

(I already have about 23 sketches of possibilities. Tank drive, swerve, launcher, kicker, a rotating mechanism, everything. :D)

jeleser 04-12-2011 18:16

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
If the game were based on football and there was an end zone, what about using the photosensors to accurately tell when the robot breaks the vertical plane of an end zone? If a robot were to come very close and suddenly backtrack/stop, maybe refs would have difficulty making the call

DavisC 04-12-2011 18:31

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Would we be allowed to challenge the play?.. always wanted to do that with a ref

the man 04-12-2011 18:33

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
I have no idea about this hint. But I would like to see a game like 09 in the fact that there were huge impacts. Even on the slippery floor robots were so "out of control" that it was awesome fun. Yes lets do a game that is a lot of fun for the drive team, maybe a few less pinning / collision rules. :yikes:

gyroscopeRaptor 04-12-2011 18:53

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Is the only justification for footballs we have the nebulous "alternating sports years" pattern?

Footballs would be a hard game piece in the goals. An AimHigh high goal would likely jam often, Breakaway low goals would have no way of returning to the center like Breakaway's soccer balls, any center goal would be easily "camped" with a quick return (think 469 only more effective) and still be susceptible to jams, and side goals where Lunacy outposts were would be still worse.

Before you say "they haven't been used," look at those reasons and consider why the GDC hasn't made them yet. Remember, plenty of other pieces haven't been used in a few years. We could just as easily use stacks or tetras.

Andrew Lawrence 04-12-2011 19:01

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Jim Beck from California FIRST gave a talk at the MVRT workshops yesterday, and said though he wasn't involved with the GDC, he knows the design process. He said to look to years past, and for the most part all games use elements from previous games. That's what he said. So for my advice, look at elements in previous years, and put them together.

DavisC 04-12-2011 19:09

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Yea, this morning at 8 AM I watched all the game animations since 2003, and a round of each game...

Anyone know where I could find an archive from b4 2003? it starts getting iffy at that point.

thefro526 04-12-2011 19:14

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DavisC (Post 1088667)
Yea, this morning at 8 AM I watched all the game animations since 2003, and a round of each game...

Anyone know where I could find an archive from b4 2003? it starts getting iffy at that point.

Team 45 has solid archives from pre-2004 or so. http://www.technokats.org/history-project/

As for game animations, I believe that 2003 was the first year for them. Video from 1992-2002 should be on youtube if you have the time to find it.

EricH 04-12-2011 19:15

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DavisC (Post 1088667)
Yea, this morning at 8 AM I watched all the game animations since 2003, and a round of each game...

Anyone know where I could find an archive from b4 2003? it starts getting iffy at that point.

No animations before 2003. For anything else, the TechnoKats History Project is one of the places I look; you could also find some pictures and rules at http://usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/...c-20th-season# (click the links not the pictures).

DavisC 04-12-2011 20:18

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
My standing position on the game is a Aim High repeatish. Involve small (solid on the outside) balls (like tennis balls or cushiony ones like stress balls) have to be shot into a upper goal or into a lower goal that has a slight uphill. I am into the consideration of some interesting obstacles in the field whic would probably involve the end game (thinking of something that has an impact on the devision of the field like a series of mini bumbs the robot could easily get stuck on, or possibly flip.

Alteration Idea to the game: corner dumping goals instead of shooting high.

In second place is: one of the interesting ball holding mechanisms that come every now and then (looks like the trailer yr). Just unsure of the whole photswitches then (unless theres also side goals)

third: some racing/stacking game: the racing was almost like to first time they tried that and they might plan to continue that in the pattern, probably add the box stacking game and robots have to be able to break through them easily.

Just some food for thought...

EricH 04-12-2011 20:24

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DavisC (Post 1088729)
Alteration Idea to the game: corner dumping goals instead of shooting high.

Oh, you mean like in Aim High? That would explain all the photodetectors... too bad I don't see manual counting devices on the list.

(For those that don't get it, the goal counting software in Aim High was notoriously unreliable, despite good hardware. The manual backup worked far better.)

Andrew Lawrence 04-12-2011 20:26

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Going with the Aim High idea, I think there will be a bumpy field, or something of the sort. The game pieces would be harder to collect, and teams would use Andymark's new pneumatic tires to traverse the bumpy terrain.

Scoring would be like either Aim High, Lunacy, or a different method.

Marc S. 04-12-2011 21:01

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256 (Post 1088742)
Going with the Aim High idea, I think there will be a bumpy field, or something of the sort. The game pieces would be harder to collect, and teams would use Andymark's new pneumatic tires to traverse the bumpy terrain.

Scoring would be like either Aim High, Lunacy, or a different method.

For everyone, AndyMark's new pneumatic tire has Nothing to do with the 2012 game.
If it does then it would be by accident.

Andrew Schreiber 04-12-2011 21:01

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JaneYoung (Post 1088455)
This type of hint locks out/shuts down the CD members who are creative problem solvers but are not techies. Like me. It also impacts rookie input, I'd imagine. If they send out another one that is more along a less technical line, there will be a lot of speculating and fun posts from the non-techies, I'm sure.

This lack kind of shows you another side to it, doesn't it?

Jane

More so than the 2008 game hint of the IR board? What about the 04 hint of the song Stairway to Heaven? Sort of cuts out the crowd that are only allowed to listen to Tony Bennet.

Astechz_Nick 04-12-2011 21:03

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
On the topic of the size of the game pieces:
(all speculation so far is that they are balls)
After competing in FIRST last year my robotics team competed in the Ontario Skills Competition. This game was similiar to Aim High except that the robots were 2'x2'x2' and the balls were probably the size of tennis balls. With this in mind i think that the game pieces need to proportional to the size of the robot and quite frankly i can't imagine having those game pieces on something the size of our FRC bot. Then again this is FIRST so who knows?

On the topic of game design:
From what I am thinking right now there will be one center goalpost (think american football's goalpost) with a box for balls to land in on either end. You would shoot through the goalpost and have the ball land in your alliances box for two points a ball or you could shoot into your alliances box without it going through the center goalpost for one point. This(the goalposts and boxes) would all be on a center platform with ramps at either end.

mesamb1 04-12-2011 21:03

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DavisC (Post 1088565)
So have we decided that there is 1 more color stackable light than previous years?

If so I'm thinking, Autonomous-Kinect-Teleop-End

Actually, what no one has discussed. Is there going to be three alliances? Red, Green, Blue?
Last year we had one amber, and one alliance light per team's driver station. Then a stack of an amber, red, and blue light at the score table. That would mean an order of 8 red, 8 blue, and 14 amber for two more fields. However, it does not appear that they have ordered enough red and blue lights for the two new fields.
BUT, We had 16 green lights per field from last year. Plenty to use this year as a new alliances light, and 4 new green lights. Perfect for a 2-2-2 set up.

Astechz_Nick 04-12-2011 21:11

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
From what I understand they are keeping the fields the same size so where would they put this 3rd alliance so that they have no advantage or disadvantage compared to the other two alliances?

Hallry 04-12-2011 21:15

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Astechz_Nick (Post 1088778)
From what I understand they are keeping the fields the same size so where would they put this 3rd alliance so that they have no advantage or disadvantage compared to the other two alliances?

Also, where would this third alliance station be located? Or would one team of the new alliance be on one side of the field, and the other team on the opposite side?

Astechz_Nick 04-12-2011 21:20

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1088779)
Also, where would this third alliance station be located? Or would one team of the new alliance be on one side of the field, and the other team on the opposite side?

This was sort of my point. I do not think FIRST will try to fix something that is not broken.

Andrew Lawrence 04-12-2011 21:22

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc S. (Post 1088771)
For everyone, AndyMark's new pneumatic tire has Nothing to do with the 2012 game.
If it does then it would be by accident.

I know, but you know how fun it is making speculations! :) Maybe that's what Andy wants you to think...

bhaidet 04-12-2011 21:56

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Astechz_Nick (Post 1088773)
On the topic of the size of the game pieces:
From what I am thinking right now there will be one center goalpost (think american football's goalpost) with a box for balls to land in on either end. You would shoot through the goalpost and have the ball land in your alliances box for two points a ball or you could shoot into your alliances box without it going through the center goalpost for one point. This(the goalposts and boxes) would all be on a center platform with ramps at either end.

Goalposts: Great way to combine the football clue with the Aim High speculation!

Hallry 04-12-2011 22:04

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

On the topic of the size of the game pieces:
From what I am thinking right now there will be one center goalpost (think american football's goalpost) with a box for balls to land in on either end. You would shoot through the goalpost and have the ball land in your alliances box for two points a ball or you could shoot into your alliances box without it going through the center goalpost for one point. This(the goalposts and boxes) would all be on a center platform with ramps at either end.
I don't know, that sounds a little bit too similar to Aim High...I don't think the GDC would have a game that much alike to a previous one.

But, then again, they did have Rack n' Roll and Logomotion...

Andrew Lawrence 04-12-2011 22:17

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Astechz_Nick (Post 1088773)
On the topic of the size of the game pieces:
(all speculation so far is that they are balls)
After competing in FIRST last year my robotics team competed in the Ontario Skills Competition. This game was similiar to Aim High except that the robots were 2'x2'x2' and the balls were probably the size of tennis balls. With this in mind i think that the game pieces need to proportional to the size of the robot and quite frankly i can't imagine having those game pieces on something the size of our FRC bot. Then again this is FIRST so who knows?

On the topic of game design:
From what I am thinking right now there will be one center goalpost (think american football's goalpost) with a box for balls to land in on either end. You would shoot through the goalpost and have the ball land in your alliances box for two points a ball or you could shoot into your alliances box without it going through the center goalpost for one point. This(the goalposts and boxes) would all be on a center platform with ramps at either end.

I agree with your thoughts on game piece size.

I love your idea of the goal post. Just the thought in my head: A mixture of Aim High, Breakaway, and Logomotion. There will be a few sets of goal posts on each side of the field, with varying scores (a la Logomotion). One of the goal posts on each side are for counter-scoring, which will be from 12 to 24 inches in diameter, much smaller than the other ones. When robots throw balls through their goal posts, the human players collect the balls and return them to the field (a la Breakaway), by throwing them into the field. BUT, if they throw the balls returned to them into the opponent's counter-scoring goal posts, they'll lower their opponent's score. Balls that miss are returned back to the field via a slope on each side of the field. For legal rule reasons to make the game fair, thrown balls from human players must go farther than a certain line on the field, somewhere between the alliance wall and the halfway section. For the end game, robots climb their opponent's slopes on the opposite end of the field, and launch as many balls as they can into either their own scoring goals, for a set amount of points, or their counter-scoring goals for a larger bonus. Autonomous will be human players controlling the robot via connect to collect the balls from the field (which are placed at random).

Just something I thought of. What do you think?

Andrew Lawrence 04-12-2011 22:23

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1088788)
I don't know, that sounds a little bit too similar to Aim High...I don't think the GDC would have a game that much alike to a previous one.

But, then again, they did have Rack n' Roll and Logomotion...

Jim Beck, from FIRST in California, talked to us at a workshop yesterday and said that even though he wasn't on the GDC, he knew the design process. He told us that a lot of the things in FRC games are taken from a variety of other games. Different elements and rules will be taken from other games.

His example to us: Lunacy. Lunacy used the game piece collecting and launching form Aim High and the trailer from the game with the trailer (I forgot.). He said Dean told him that he wanted a hard to maneuver playing field, just like Maize Craze, the first FRC competition.

His last words to us: If you look at all of the previous years' things, including any year, not just ones 6 or 7 years ago, and piece things together with the hints, you can easily guess the game.

He also told us to stay off Chief Delphi. Apparently the endless threads about game hints are bad for our health. :rolleyes:

Hallry 04-12-2011 22:29

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256 (Post 1088794)
Jim Beck, from FIRST in California, talked to us at a workshop yesterday and said that even though he wasn't on the GDC, he knew the design process. He told us that a lot of the things in FRC games are taken from a variety of other games. Different elements and rules will be taken from other games.

His last words to us: If you look at all of the previous years' things, including any year, not just ones 6 or 7 years ago, and piece things together with the hints, you can easily guess the game.

Ah, okay. Well then, continuing on this idea of a football-like Aim High, didn't Ramp N' Roll have a field goal-like objects in it, on ramps?


Andrew Lawrence 04-12-2011 22:34

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1088798)
Ah, okay. Well then, continuing on this idea of a football-like Aim High, didn't Ramp N' Roll have a field goal-like objects in it, on ramps?


Well, judging by your picture, and the assumption that that was Ramp 'N' Roll, then yes, I guess it did. So maybe, like Rack 'N' Roll and Logomotion, we'll have something like Ramp 'N' Roll and Aim High together! Or MORE! :D

DavisC 04-12-2011 23:20

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Now, just thinking about (maybe some influence from me not wanting a 2011 repeat), I do not believe it will involve directly picking something up (more like throwing it or shooting it) and I understand the small ball issue and that's why I was kind-of thinking more along the lines of a soft ball that is maybe slightly smaller than a soccer ball while bigger than a tennis ball.
So its BIG, but small. And who says you can't play football with a round ball?

now that for the most part we have plenty of ideas on the game plan, I want to think about the obstacles/end-game and develop that aspect some... Off to work

PAR_WIG1350 04-12-2011 23:34

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1088798)
Ah, okay. Well then, continuing on this idea of a football-like Aim High, didn't Ramp N' Roll have a field goal-like objects in it, on ramps?

Yes, from what I hear, Dean Kamen wasn't a fan. A cool fact about Ramp N' Roll, it was the first game to be scored as it was played rather than determining the score based on the final position of all objects.

On a side note, I used Chrome's developers tools to see if maybe the hint was hidden on the page, like in the comments of the source code. Nothing there.

Jessi Kaestle 05-12-2011 00:13

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Okay everyone says to look at old games but no one is looking much past '06... What if the sensors are used to see if a see-saw like from '01's Diabolical Dynamics has broken the plane of parallel. You would need high frequency sensors for something like that as it is likely to teeter often...

DavisC 05-12-2011 00:26

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PAR_WIG1350 (Post 1088813)
On a side note, I used Chrome's developers tools to see if maybe the hint was hidden on the page, like in the comments of the source code. Nothing there.

Yea, I spent some time with that too (not that I truly knew what I was doing...), But no such luck...ugh we need some more ideas. Like hacking into the computer that posted the blog and looking at all the files.... (this is what happens when left with a game hint for too longgg )

vic burg 05-12-2011 01:30

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zaphodp.jensen (Post 1088574)
Uhh, I don't believe so, because the amber stack lights are always there, they are just at the bottom of the stacks at the alliance stations, and I believe are for indicating E-stops. The stack lights aren't there in high enough quantities to indicate them being used on all of the fields...

Unless you guys are talking about the clear stack light, which there are 32 of, which would be one per field with 13 extra... If there are that many extra, that's indicative of that item being subject to heavy wear and tear. Maybe there is one of those lights near the center of the field?

None of the color lights are high enough quantity, then. Only a few per the others. But in that case, why are there 2500 lenses for the amber lights? That's what really throwing me off, since I don't think each team needs their own?

EricH 05-12-2011 02:00

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vic burg (Post 1088822)
None of the color lights are high enough quantity, then. Only a few per the others. But in that case, why are there 2500 lenses for the amber lights? That's what really throwing me off, since I don't think each team needs their own?

There are two (2) types of amber lights, in two (2) different quantities.

1) Panel Mount Selectable Steady/Flashing LED, 12V, qty. 2500. Every single robot has carried one since 2007. I don't expect that that will change this year, given that quantity. You'll pick it up 1/7/2011 with the KOP.

2) Control Tower Stack Light, Amber Steady, qty 14. Not enough for all 19 fields, but almost certainly enough to equip the two new fields, replace that part on any field needing it, and still have a few spares lying around.

The other Control Tower Stack Light quantities indicate that they're for the two new fields; there also are a few other items associated with them that seem to be in spare/new field quantities.

Nick Lawrence 05-12-2011 02:15

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1088825)
There are two (2) types of amber lights, in two (2) different quantities.

1) Panel Mount Selectable Steady/Flashing LED, 12V, qty. 2500. Every single robot has carried one since 2007. I don't expect that that will change this year, given that quantity. You'll pick it up 1/7/2011 with the KOP.

2) Control Tower Stack Light, Amber Steady, qty 14. Not enough for all 19 fields, but almost certainly enough to equip the two new fields, replace that part on any field needing it, and still have a few spares lying around.

The other Control Tower Stack Light quantities indicate that they're for the two new fields; there also are a few other items associated with them that seem to be in spare/new field quantities.

Actually, in 2008 the robots did not use the Amber "BFL" from 2007. They have used them since 2009 though.

-Nick

MichaelBick 05-12-2011 02:49

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
I like the idea about multiple goals(more than 3). It explains the reasoning for so many photo sensors, and is much more sensible than using them to see if a robot has broken a plane. Furthermore it seems like a game where older teams could excel, yet easy enough and understandable enough for newer teams and spectators.

TrevorJ 05-12-2011 09:33

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vic burg (Post 1088548)
Alrighty, thanks Pierce. Well then, with the parts that equal 21 fields, we are probably dedicating 1 field to Hawaii, 1 to Israel (normal, though).
The weeks with the number of regionals/districts are:
Week 1: 5 + 2 qualifiers
Week 2: 9 (1 being the Israel thing) + 4 qualifiers
Week 3: 9 + 2 qualifiers
Week 4: 12 + 3 qualifiers (hello busy! Also, two regionals in Seattle same weekend so 2 fields over there & Hawaii getting a field plenty of time ahead - 15 fields total, though)
Week 5: 11 + 3 qualifiers (More busy with Minnesota getting 2 fields as well and the same for Texas)
Week 6: 6
Week 7: 2

So for sure need at least 19 fields (since some will be stuck or not get there in time between weeks) and having enough spare parts for 3 fields would be the best idea ever especially for week 4 & 5 (that is if they aren't already planning to have 3 spare field for those 2 weeks). I could easily see problems then (end of March), not that I want them to happen but, with 29 regionals/qualifiers going on in the 2 week span.... it will be tense. But also then Hawaii having it's field early.

Actually, FiM uses their own their own fields. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...5#post1045725). I'm not sure if MAR is doing this or not, but at the very most this is the number of FIRST supplied fields needed each week:
Week 1: 6
Week 2: 12
Week 3: 9
Week 4: 13
Week 5: 12
Week 6: 6
Week 7: 1

Robert Cawthon 05-12-2011 09:50

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1088779)
Also, where would this third alliance station be located? Or would one team of the new alliance be on one side of the field, and the other team on the opposite side?

Put one of each alliance on each end. That way, each alliance has one team on one end and one on the other. Would interfere with communication, but it would be even.

EDIT: I am thinking of the nerf balls like Aim High. And Frisbees would not be hard to pick up. In the Rack and Roll kit of parts, there was a vacuum system. It could be used here.

tidymaze 05-12-2011 09:58

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ssmitka (Post 1088082)
Maybe it's nothing related to the supplies, but the name of the company, Rockwell. Bill's other post was titled Over the River and Through the Woods...and now "rock"well...just my 2 cents. :yikes:

Combined with the weight of the new field, you may be on to something!

In any case, previous hints have been on the esoteric side, so my thought is that the list of parts is superfluous. And speaking with people who have been involved with putting together fields, almost everything on the list has been there before.

thefro526 05-12-2011 11:44

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
I don't believe anyone has posted the Technical Information of the Switch that was included in the BOM in this thread yet so here it is:



(Thanks to Chris Elston for posting a link to the PDF containing this info.)

The switch seems to be a little more heavy than what would be used for a minibot... (Requires about 4x the force as last year's tower, IIRC)

MechEng83 05-12-2011 13:25

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
I've got it!

Rockwell -- Rock + Well

A well is something which contains a reservoir of liquid.

A liquid rock would be --- LAVA.

The field will be made of "liquid hot magma"!

GlassPrison142 05-12-2011 13:54

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
At least football is better than when people were saying hockey. I'd see that working out to be a similar design as breakaway, which was not a fun game in my opinion.

But, people also call me crazy because Overdrive was my favorite so does my opinion even matter? ;p

Kimmeh 05-12-2011 14:04

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MechEng83 (Post 1088882)
I've got it!

Rockwell -- Rock + Well

A well is something from which contains a reservoir of liquid.

A liquid rock would be --- LAVA.

The field will be made of "liquid hot magma"!

Robots playing "The Floor is Lava" game! While playing the game, they can't touch the floor otherwise they get a penalty!

Brandon_L 05-12-2011 14:14

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GlassPrison142 (Post 1088893)
At least football is better than when people were saying hockey. I'd see that working out to be a similar design as breakaway, which was not a fun game in my opinion.

But, people also call me crazy because Overdrive was my favorite so does my opinion even matter? ;p

Nah, I loved overdrive. followed by breakaway. I also like to pretend 09 never happened.


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