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-   -   First Official 2012 Game Hint (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98583)

Eric Sakshaug 05-12-2011 14:21

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Has anyone else noticed the correlation between the numbers for very high speed counter, and the photoelectric switches? The difference is two. I think that this might be where a minibot would come in, if anywhere. Minibots could be faster than normal robots (STEVE!) and with the possibility of six minibots breaking a beam, perhaps several times in a row, the speed on the counter may be necessary. (2)

That, or there might be no minibot, and the robots may have to manipulate several small things into a hopper (ping pong balls? No, too easy to find for FRC, especially near the start of the spring semester for most colleges(tennis balls in the middle of winter are a completely different story, however.)), breaking the beam several times in rapid succession, especially if a team has a hopper that can hold several items at once. A photoelectric sensor would also be required in this case, as a limit switch might not have time to reset, or may not even be able to trigger if the items are too lightweight. (1)

Or, a combination of the two: the robot might have to manipulate a swarm of minibots into a hopper, and they all fly over to a limit switch in the back of the hopper. Your score is reduced based on how many minibots you use. (3)

Of course, the sensors might also be able to detect if the water is overflowing from the game field. (4)

In conclusion, obviously it's a water game.

Kidding. The numbers after each paragraph denotes my perceived likelihood of each event happening, the lower, the more likely.

the man 05-12-2011 15:35

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon_L (Post 1088901)
Nah, I loved overdrive. followed by breakaway. I also like to pretend 09 never happened.

Why you hat'in on lunacy. That was my favorite game. High speed collisions little control. Great autonomous. Ahhh memories.

holygrail 05-12-2011 16:12

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
I think that between the new pneumatic wheels from AndyMark and the "Rockwell" name, the field is going to be rather bumpy. That would also explain the heavy field situation. I have a feeling the GDC wants to mix up the drive trains from mecanum, swerve, and six wheel, and suspension would be an interesting challenge. Of course, nothing but speculation on my part.

Hallry 05-12-2011 16:42

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by holygrail (Post 1088918)
I think that between the new pneumatic wheels from AndyMark and the "Rockwell" name, the field is going to be rather bumpy.

Once again...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc S. (Post 1088771)
For everyone, AndyMark's new pneumatic tire has Nothing to do with the 2012 game.
If it does then it would be by accident.


pfreivald 05-12-2011 17:38

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1088921)
Once again...

I don't know that this can be stressed enough! AndyMark is a business. FIRST is a non-profit. Tailoring a FIRST game specifically to boost a particular company's sales would be
  • unethical
  • illegal
  • waaaay outside of GP
  • dangerous to FIRST's 501(c)3 status

I'm quite certain that Andy, Mark, and the folks at FIRST do not collude in such a manner. Leave that to Congress.

thefro526 05-12-2011 18:22

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pfreivald (Post 1088927)
I don't know that this can be stressed enough! AndyMark is a business. FIRST is a non-profit. Tailoring a FIRST game specifically to boost a particular company's sales would be
  • unethical
  • illegal
  • waaaay outside of GP
  • dangerous to FIRST's 501(c)3 status

I'm quite certain that Andy, Mark, and the folks at FIRST do not collude in such a manner. Leave that to Congress.

Not that I'm debating your point, but there is some logic behind connecting AM's new Pneumatic wheel to the 2012 Game.

In 2009, when everyone was forced to use the same wheel, AM built a custom wheel and was the sole supplier for it.

That being said, there has been a market in FRC for Pneumatic wheels since the pre-alliance days. Coming out with a pre-hubbed easy to use Pneumatic Wheel is just good business.

Andrew Lawrence 05-12-2011 18:46

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimmeh (Post 1088896)
Robots playing "The Floor is Lava" game! While playing the game, they can't touch the floor otherwise they get a penalty!

If my robot fell into lava, I'd much rather get a penalty than what would most likely happen! (For those unfamiliar with reactions involving robots and lava, it usually ends in a melt down, and no more robot.)

So if my robot somehow falls into lava, PLEASE give me all the penalties in the world! Just let my robot survive!

Brandon_L 05-12-2011 18:54

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by the man (Post 1088914)
Why you hat'in on lunacy. That was my favorite game. High speed collisions little control. Great autonomous. Ahhh memories.

It was our worst year to date, mix of bad luck and...well just about everything.

What I'd like to see is more of a terrain type of thing going on on the field. Breakaway was a good start, but every game I've experienced were pretty much flat.

artK 05-12-2011 18:58

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
I would like to say that the goal of FIRST is to inspire innovators. To create a non-original game would be hypocritical of their mission, for originality is a keystone of innovation.
So why, I ask, would Dean Kamen and the other designers create a game based on sports, in an interview from The New Cool Kamen states that the amount of idolism of sports was a driving factor in the creation of FIRST. Additionally, why would he have games that were similar to previous games, which allow veteran teams to have small advantages for their knowledge of the elements. the goal is to create a game which requires a design challenge.

Ninja_Bait 05-12-2011 19:40

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by artK (Post 1088946)
I would like to say that the goal of FIRST is to inspire innovators. To create a non-original game would be hypocritical of their mission, for originality is a keystone of innovation.
So why, I ask, would Dean Kamen and the other designers create a game based on sports, in an interview from The New Cool Kamen states that the amount of idolism of sports was a driving factor in the creation of FIRST. Additionally, why would he have games that were similar to previous games, which allow veteran teams to have small advantages for their knowledge of the elements. the goal is to create a game which requires a design challenge.

FIRST has to achieve a balance between engaging future engineers and engaging audiences. Sports-themed games are usually easier to understand for the audience though they have a certain amount of predictability. A unique engineering challenge, like the Tetras in 2004, is interesting for FIRST, but confusing for everyone else.

JB987 05-12-2011 20:13

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja_Bait (Post 1088963)
FIRST has to achieve a balance between engaging future engineers and engaging audiences. Sports-themed games are usually easier to understand for the audience though they have a certain amount of predictability. A unique engineering challenge, like the Tetras in 2004, is interesting for FIRST, but confusing for everyone else.

And the action on the field must be visible (including the movements of game pieces) in order for spectators in large arena type venues to be able to follow the action...which therefore rules out any small objects like ping pong balls, tennis balls, etc. For over a decade all movable game pieces have been no smaller than the nerf balls in 06...for a reason.;)

nathannfm 05-12-2011 20:52

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JB987 (Post 1088973)
the action on the field must be visible (including the movements of game pieces) in order for spectators in large arena type venues to be able to follow the action...which therefore rules out any small objects like ping pong balls, tennis balls, etc. For over a decade all movable game pieces have been no smaller than the nerf balls in 06...for a reason.;)

I wouldn't count out tennis balls just because of their size, I think it would be quite easy to see them flying through the air and rolling around on the ground in any stadium we play in. They do play the actual game in stadiums much large than we have, and with only one ball. Also some people have said that they would be too small for FRC robots to manipulate but that would be part of the challenge, you don't want a game that's too easy do you? There may be some other reasons not to use them like the fact that they go bad and loose their bounce after a while. This might make using the same balls in week 1 as week 7 a problem.

Also just something I thought of: what if the field was not static, what if it shot out the tennis balls like a tennis ball machine and our robots had to do something with them before, say, they bounced once (from the rules of tennis). That could be something to use the counters and sensors for (counting the balls the come out of the field and counting what happens to them), as well as present a use for the Kinect. The driver would actually be able to swing to make the robot react.
Just some thoughts that might make someone else thing of something. :]

IndySam 05-12-2011 21:04

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Tennis balls are easy to see, anyone ever been to a tennis match?

It would also be a fun challenge to try.

I don't think it will come to pass because of the potential field reset difficulties.

zaphodp.jensen 05-12-2011 21:06

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Rockwell Automation is a highly praised company that deals with sensors and control automation. THE NAME IS PURELY A COINCIDENCE BECAUSE THEY SELL THE SENSORS THAT ARE BEING USED. That is all. Thank you.

And sorry if it appears that I am screaming, I just want to make my point EASILY VISIBLE! ;)

Andrew Lawrence 05-12-2011 21:07

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by artK (Post 1088946)
I would like to say that the goal of FIRST is to inspire innovators. To create a non-original game would be hypocritical of their mission, for originality is a keystone of innovation.
So why, I ask, would Dean Kamen and the other designers create a game based on sports, in an interview from The New Cool Kamen states that the amount of idolism of sports was a driving factor in the creation of FIRST. Additionally, why would he have games that were similar to previous games, which allow veteran teams to have small advantages for their knowledge of the elements. the goal is to create a game which requires a design challenge.

While your statements make sense, if you look at any FIRST game within the last, oh, 7 to 8 years for example, you'll see a lot of repeated ideas and rules. If you look even further, you'll see things that were used in the 90's that have been used in recent games. FIRST has found the formula for a successful game, and now they are just mixing previous inputs to get the same successful outputs.

I hope this makes sense. If it doesn't I can try to explain it better.

Also, Welcome to Chief Delphi! :D

BJC 05-12-2011 21:10

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
I just really hope that the game does not share similarities with previous ones. I think that I would especially dislike a game which involves shooting smaller-ish sized balls. The reason being -- everyone already knows how to build great robots that shoot balls. They were built in 2006 and 2009. It takes alot out of the design process when you already have models of what works. 2010 was great for this, no one had ever built a kicker or ball magnet before. On the opposite side of the spectrum in 2011 most robots were heavily inspired by what worked in 2007.

Oh, but I still think that playpen balls would make a great small game object. They are big enough to not constantly drive over and to see from far away (and come in red and blue.) Additionally, they are VERY durable despite there light weight, I would venture to say that most balls could last the entire season. Most of this was picked up from playing with a 118 ball at Worlds. Anyways, my vote goes to them for a small ball for a game piece. Otherwise, I would love to see pool noodles cut into 12" and 8" lengths (although I bet that would leave quite a mess on the field.)

Andrew Lawrence 05-12-2011 21:14

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BJC (Post 1089005)
I just really hope that the game does not share similarities with previous ones. I think that I would especially dislike a game which involves shooting smaller-ish sized balls. The reason being -- everyone already knows how to build great robots that shoot balls. They were built in 2006 and 2009. It takes alot out of the design process when you already have models of what works. 2010 was great for this, no one had ever built a kicker or ball magnet before. On the opposite side of the spectrum in 2011 most robots were heavily inspired by what worked in 2007.

I agree. I haven't been in FRC too long, but from my experience, Breakaway was my favorite game. Not only was it easy to understand for everyone, but it was original. I don't like Logomotion as much because it heavily resembled 2007, and I just knew that teams would use ideas from previous robots.

That's why I'm hoping for a sports theme that has NOT been used before, ie. Football, Baseball?, Hockey, etc.

Walter Deitzler 05-12-2011 21:28

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
I am personally hoping for a shooting type game, such as aim high or lunacy. Someone (I forget who) posted something about the game being an aim high/logomotion combo, where there would be 3 levels of scoring, scored by shooting balls through hoops or at targets. Same as in Logomotion, the top row would be worth 3, second row worth 2, and bottom row (maybe breakaway goal type things) worth 1. I have already spent countless hours of classtime designing robots on pieces of paper to accomodate a shooter, and am all pumped for that type of game. I know that I shouldn't get my hopes up, but I think it would be fun. Really though, I just cannot wait for kickoff.

brunettegmp 05-12-2011 21:41

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
I agree with a lot of people for wanting to keep the game original. It would be pretty cool if they tied the game into the 2012 theme of world ending...idk how...but it'd be fitting.

Andrew Lawrence 05-12-2011 21:45

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by brunettegmp (Post 1089015)
I agree with a lot of people for wanting to keep the game original. It would be pretty cool if they tied the game into the 2012 theme of world ending...idk how...but it'd be fitting.

for the endgame, a horizontal pole lowers to 20 feet above the field, going from alliance station to alliance station. At the 5 second mark, the floors retract and all robots not hanging on the pole fall into oblivion! And to make it more realistic, they will dig 50 foot holes beneath each field for the bots to fall into!

brunettegmp 05-12-2011 21:47

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256 (Post 1089019)
for the endgame, a horizontal pole lowers to 20 feet above the field, going from alliance station to alliance station. At the 5 second mark, the floors retract and all robots not hanging on the pole fall into oblivion! And to make it more realistic, they will dig 50 foot holes beneath each field for the bots to fall into!

hahahaha that'd be pretty awesome...maybe it turns into battle bots?!?! :)

MechEng83 05-12-2011 21:48

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by brunettegmp (Post 1089015)
I agree with a lot of people for wanting to keep the game original. It would be pretty cool if they tied the game into the 2012 theme of world ending...idk how...but it'd be fitting.

Lava game -- with a Mayan pyramid we have to climb in the middle for the endgame.

Ninja_Bait 05-12-2011 21:50

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256 (Post 1089019)
for the endgame, a horizontal pole lowers to 20 feet above the field, going from alliance station to alliance station. At the 5 second mark, the floors retract and all robots not hanging on the pole fall into oblivion! And to make it more realistic, they will dig 50 foot holes beneath each field for the bots to fall into!

And they will be filled with WATER and parts from Rockwell Automation that weren't really important at all!

Hint solved. Done.

Walter Deitzler 05-12-2011 21:52

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by brunettegmp (Post 1089015)
I agree with a lot of people for wanting to keep the game original. It would be pretty cool if they tied the game into the 2012 theme of world ending...idk how...but it'd be fitting.

Maybe the endgame could be throwing minibots into some mayan sacrifice fire to prevent the world from ending. Then we ccould rid the world of the minibot problem once and for all!

Andrew Lawrence 05-12-2011 21:52

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MechEng83 (Post 1089022)
Lava game -- with a Mayan pyramid we have to climb in the middle for the endgame.

Only if lava spews out the top of the pyramid as the robots ascend! :D

Andrew Lawrence 05-12-2011 21:53

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LedLover96 (Post 1089027)
Maybe the endgame could be throwing minibots into some mayan sacrifice fire to prevent the world from ending. Then we ccould rid the world of the minibot problem once and for all!

I don't care if it's in the 2012 game or not: My team is SO DOING THAT!

brunettegmp 05-12-2011 21:58

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LedLover96 (Post 1089027)
Maybe the endgame could be throwing minibots into some mayan sacrifice fire to prevent the world from ending. Then we ccould rid the world of the minibot problem once and for all!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256 (Post 1089030)
I don't care if it's in the 2012 game or not: My team is SO DOING THAT!


hahahaha!!! agreed!

DSM33 05-12-2011 21:59

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
what if this game was more of a race game like 2004 but with alliances of three racing against each other to fill up a hopper with tennis balls/playpen balls/etc. on the other side of the field from where the game objects are received. first team to a certain amount before the time limit wins!

Walter Deitzler 05-12-2011 22:00

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256 (Post 1089028)
Only if lava spews out the top of the pyramid as the robots ascend! :D

I say send the minibots first...

Ninja_Bait 06-12-2011 06:42

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LedLover96 (Post 1089035)
I say send the minibots first...

And the bumper rules...

Siri 06-12-2011 07:51

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IndySam (Post 1089000)
Tennis balls are easy to see, anyone ever been to a tennis match?

It would also be a fun challenge to try.

I don't think it will come to pass because of the potential field reset difficulties.

Also I've only ever been a ref once, but the thought of having anything like a tennis ball machine on the field with robots trying to manipulate (swing? :yikes:) at them in the air is really pretty terrifying.

Seriously, this is legitimately dangerous on an FRC field. I don't think we'll be seeing any tennis balls or golf balls, etc, moving through the air at relatively high speeds or long distances.

Robert Cawthon 06-12-2011 09:37

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Siri (Post 1089077)
Also I've only ever been a ref once, but the thought of having anything like a tennis ball machine on the field with robots trying to manipulate (swing? :yikes:) at them in the air is really pretty terrifying.

Seriously, this is legitimately dangerous on an FRC field. I don't think we'll be seeing any tennis balls or golf balls, etc, moving through the air at relatively high speeds or long distances.

How about tennis balls as obstacle to driving, or having to herd them (not pick up and throw) or having to stack them? Trying to stack them could be interesting! Nearly impossible, but interesting.

Andrew Lawrence 06-12-2011 09:39

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Cawthon (Post 1089094)
How about tennis balls as obstacle to driving, or having to herd them (not pick up and throw) or having to stack them? Trying to stack them could be interesting! Nearly impossible, but interesting.

Or even better, make them the floor! Like the corn in Maize Craze!

HumblePie 06-12-2011 11:24

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DSM33 (Post 1089033)
what if this game was more of a race game like 2004 but with alliances of three racing against each other to fill up a hopper with tennis balls/playpen balls/etc. on the other side of the field from where the game objects are received. first team to a certain amount before the time limit wins!

Building on this and others:

This year is the 20th anniversary of the first video game (Pong) and the 10th anniversary of Super Mario Kart. What if our alliances completed laps (racing) while collecting playpen balls, and shooting/dumping them into goals? The high speed counters can be used for scoring, whether it be in goals or as a lap counter. Let the mayhem ensue!

HumblePie 06-12-2011 11:26

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MechEng83 (Post 1089022)
Lava game -- with a Mayan pyramid we have to climb in the middle for the endgame.


I love the Mayan Pyramid idea. We're about due for stairs.

notmattlythgoe 06-12-2011 11:46

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
If I'm imagining things correctly, the beams would only be useful at counting things that can only pass through a goal one at a time, if you have 2 go in at the same time then you'll run into problems.

Taylor 06-12-2011 11:50

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HumblePie (Post 1089111)
Building on this and others:

This year is the 20th anniversary of the first video game (Pong) and the 10th anniversary of Super Mario Kart. What if our alliances completed laps (racing) while collecting playpen balls, and shooting/dumping them into goals? The high speed counters can be used for scoring, whether it be in goals or as a lap counter. Let the mayhem ensue!

Oh, a combination of Lunacy and Overdrive? Cool. Done.

jdunston94 06-12-2011 17:06

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HumblePie (Post 1089111)
Building on this and others:

This year is the 20th anniversary of the first video game (Pong) and the 10th anniversary of Super Mario Kart. What if our alliances completed laps (racing) while collecting playpen balls, and shooting/dumping them into goals? The high speed counters can be used for scoring, whether it be in goals or as a lap counter. Let the mayhem ensue!

ALSO THE 100th ANNIVERSARY OF THE TITANIC! how many times do i have to say it? i shall concede once the game is released or it is proven an impossible option. you dont need water to commemorate the sinking...

rcmolloy 06-12-2011 17:47

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe (Post 1089117)
If I'm imagining things correctly, the beams would only be useful at counting things that can only pass through a goal one at a time, if you have 2 go in at the same time then you'll run into problems.

I had mentioned this to AdamHeard yesterday. However, multiple items can be scored but have to eventually pass through the photosensors one at a time. It is very possible that this could be achieved with a bottleneck effect like in 2010. The only downside is there may be a jammage of game pieces.

Jim Wilks 06-12-2011 18:05

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HumblePie (Post 1089111)
Building on this and others:

This year is the 20th anniversary of the first video game (Pong)

1972 to the present is a bit more than 20 years!

CNettles11 06-12-2011 19:04

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jgw (Post 1089159)
1972 to the present is a bit more than 20 years!

You mean that 10 years ago doesn't mean early 90's? :(

Sean Raia 06-12-2011 19:17

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Im seeing an infared photoswitch, this has the capability to tell if something has interupted the beam in light of dark environments. Why would FIRST order so many photoswitches just to do the job of a ref and look for a robot passing a line? They wouldn't.

I could see a part of the field being obstucted from view.

CNettles11 06-12-2011 19:18

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Raia (Post 1089175)
I have just been informed that the game is called Bowled Over, appearantly there was a leak on andymark. More info to come.

Bowled over is the FTC game, not the FRC game.

GaryVoshol 06-12-2011 20:46

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcmolloy (Post 1089151)
... a bottleneck effect like in 2010.

How about the bottlenecks in Aim High? Pokey-pokey stick anyone?

Sean Raia 06-12-2011 21:04

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CNettles11 (Post 1089176)
Bowled over is the FTC game, not the FRC game.

Ahh I realized that just after i hit post. I stand firm on my obstructed view prediction.

CNettles11 06-12-2011 21:21

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Raia (Post 1089210)
Ahh I realized that just after i hit post. I stand firm on my obstructed view prediction.

4 pound bowling balls are just dense styrofoam (Think about AndyMark's battery packing foam) wrapped in a plastic shell. Those seem like the best reason for the heavy game pieces. I'd love to have a bowling game! I still think that the way that FRC is trying to tie into FTC, it could possibly involve balls being used to knock things over.

thefro526 06-12-2011 21:22

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcmolloy (Post 1089151)
I had mentioned this to AdamHeard yesterday. However, multiple items can be scored but have to eventually pass through the photosensors one at a time. It is very possible that this could be achieved with a bottleneck effect like in 2010. The only downside is there may be a jammage of game pieces.

I tried to find a picture of a 2006 low goal but was unable to. If memory serves me, the goal had 2-3 tunnel like structures for balls to go through, each with it's own photo sensor. Don't think I ever saw one jam up, even when 20-ish balls were dumped in at once.

2010's goals were never designed for multiple game pieces to pass through, or at least I don't think they were. It doesn't help that the memory foam made it really easy to jam two balls into the goal pretty tightly.

EricH 06-12-2011 21:29

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thefro526 (Post 1089214)
I tried to find a picture of a 2006 low goal but was unable to. If memory serves me, the goal had 2-3 tunnel like structures for balls to go through, each with it's own photo sensor. Don't think I ever saw one jam up, even when 20-ish balls were dumped in at once.

Single chute with a vision sensor of some form. No jamming, but you had to clear the holding pen before the balls got stuck on the sensor, otherwise they'd count again and again.

Andrew Lawrence 06-12-2011 21:33

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1089217)
Single chute with a vision sensor of some form. No jamming, but you had to clear the holding pen before the balls got stuck on the sensor, otherwise they'd count again and again.

And that's a bad thing to keep counting scores? :rolleyes:

thefro526 06-12-2011 21:39

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256 (Post 1089221)
And that's a bad thing to keep counting scores? :rolleyes:

Your opponent scored on you in 2006 (opposite of 2010). If you didn't clear the ball corral fast enough, the opponents score would keep going up.

Andrew Lawrence 06-12-2011 21:43

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thefro526 (Post 1089224)
Your opponent scored on you in 2006 (opposite of 2010). If you didn't clear the ball corral fast enough, the opponents score would keep going up.

Oh.... :\

EricH 06-12-2011 21:52

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
There was a match replayed that year... in finals... because the lower goal counted 5 balls too many in automode. 4 high (12 points) versus 10 low (10 points), and 10 low won autonomous (score 15 points). Yes. This was in a regional finals match. The way the game was set up, this screwed up the entire match. After this incident and others like it, a delay to allow for the manual counters to report in was added.

It wasn't the hardware, IIRC, but the software that didn't quite work properly.

FRC4ME 06-12-2011 22:31

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Whoa...I think this is the most substantial game hint I've seen. Not a cryptic phrase or an obscure photograph, but a parts list for the field? In a plainly readable format?

This is too easy. It must be a decoy. The real game hint is obviously steganographically encoded in the image. Come on CD'ers, start cracking...

bhaidet 06-12-2011 23:06

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Could the "Very high speed" of the counter not refer to how many times it can count in a second but its response time to a change of input? I am not sure exactly how it works, but the high speed may just mean that whatever triggers the sensor (probably photogate) is only blocking the photogate for a short time, meaning that it is small and/or moving fast.

Even launching a few balls into a goal a second is "fast" from the game prospective, but is nothing for a computer (and the parts list had LAN adapters that enabled direct IO, I believe somebody posted.) There must be some reason for FIRST to add extra circuitry between the computer and the sensor. If the network is not fast enough to register a goal with whatever sensor it is, the adding of a "quantizing" counter between them would eliminate this problem.

People said that in Aim High the counters were unreliable, does anyone know why? was it a speed-of-signal-pulse issue?

If used like this, this part seems like it would probably have been inserted as a tweak as the GDC played and tested (and figured that it wouldn't work well without it). I can see it happening.




photogate input: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ._____/\__________

Time the network is looking for a response (when high): ----____----____-

it would not be recorded because the pulse happens when the network is not listening



with the "quantizer"

photogate input: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ._____/\__________
signal to network: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ._____/----\______

Time the network is looking for a response (when high): ----____----____-

this time the signal and the async time the network is "looking" line up, so there will be a score detected.

ratdude747 06-12-2011 23:07

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
I had an idea:

what if the high speed sensors are used to monitor robots driving though lanes? like a 1-robot-per-lane version of overdrive?

just a thought...

zaphodp.jensen 06-12-2011 23:12

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ratdude747 (Post 1089240)
I had an idea:

what if the high speed sensors are used to monitor robots driving though lanes? like a 1-robot-per-lane version of overdrive?

just a thought...

It would be hard to drive through a lane that was wide enough for only one robot to drive through and long... It was fairly hard to squeeze through in between the tower and the perimeter last year, and that was slightly wider than 1 robot wide, and very narrow...

rcmolloy 07-12-2011 03:27

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 1089209)
How about the bottlenecks in Aim High? Pokey-pokey stick anyone?

Wasn't around for Aim High, however it looks as if they all funneled into a mesh type netting. I believe that pokey pokey stick helped clear the bunches of balls that were restricted from the netting.

Correct me if I am wrong Gary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thefro526 (Post 1089214)
I tried to find a picture of a 2006 low goal but was unable to. If memory serves me, the goal had 2-3 tunnel like structures for balls to go through, each with it's own photo sensor. Don't think I ever saw one jam up, even when 20-ish balls were dumped in at once.

2010's goals were never designed for multiple game pieces to pass through, or at least I don't think they were. It doesn't help that the memory foam made it really easy to jam two balls into the goal pretty tightly.

Dustin,

Like above, never was able to view the 2006 goals even with the internet searches these days. I was just stating that in 2010 there was a certain bottle neck that the balls could eventually go through one by one counting each separately mainly referring to the fact that game pieces will most likely be scored one by one.

Lil' Lavery 07-12-2011 03:55

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall (Post 1088197)
Ladder logic n. archaic 1. How to program old stuff, slowly. 2. The 1998 FRC game.

So you can imagine my sense of revulsion when I saw the RSLogix stuff. Fortunately, I think FIRST is going to keep it far from the robots. Its presence implies to me that the game elements need to be processed/scored in a way that occurs too rapidly for humans—hence the sensors and PLC stuff—yet it's important enough to the game that teams will need it after kickoff to test with.

You're aware that RSLogix5000 can use other programming methods, including structured text, right? And I'm curious as to why you'd want FIRST to keep a software package used frequently in industry away from teams, especially if your basis is simply because it uses ladder logic. It's not as if function block programming, as many teams use in LabView, is any better.

I'm curious to how long RSLogix has been used by FIRST HQ.

notmattlythgoe 07-12-2011 08:00

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcmolloy (Post 1089151)
I had mentioned this to AdamHeard yesterday. However, multiple items can be scored but have to eventually pass through the photosensors one at a time. It is very possible that this could be achieved with a bottleneck effect like in 2010. The only downside is there may be a jammage of game pieces.

Yeah, that was kind of my point. Pieces will need to be fed one at a time into the sensors.

linuxboy 07-12-2011 08:29

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall (Post 1088197)
Ladder logic n. archaic 1. How to program old stuff, slowly. 2. The 1998 FRC game.

So you can imagine my sense of revulsion when I saw the RSLogix stuff. Fortunately, I think FIRST is going to keep it far from the robots. Its presence implies to me that the game elements need to be processed/scored in a way that occurs too rapidly for humans—hence the sensors and PLC stuff—yet it's important enough to the game that teams will need it after kickoff to test with.

If I remember correctly from a diagram I saw, the RSLogix controllers are inside the scorpion case to communicate with the SCCs and other field electronics and whatnot. From the qtys it doesn't look like each team will get one, there are two standard RSLogix controllers, one for each new field.

Oliver

HumblePie 07-12-2011 10:29

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jgw (Post 1089159)
1972 to the present is a bit more than 20 years!

Wait........this can't be.....I was only a kid when Pong came out, and I'm how old now?.....oops. Proofreading is your friend folks. It's heck to get old.

HumblePie 07-12-2011 10:35

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
On a slightly unrelated note, there has been a lot of speculation re: the return of minibots. Why not apply the "miniaturization" principle to the grown-up bot? The 38 x 28 footprint has been somewhat sacred lately, and it's possible that the GDC had issues with so many chassis designs being "recirculated" from Rack 'n Roll last year. The new CRio is smaller, why not the robots? A smaller footprint would force many teams to rethink their entire packaging scheme.

Taylor 07-12-2011 10:38

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HumblePie (Post 1089301)
On a slightly unrelated note, there has been a lot of speculation re: the return of minibots. Why not apply the "miniaturization" principle to the grown-up bot? The 38 x 28 footprint has been somewhat sacred lately, and it's possible that the GDC had issues with so many chassis designs being "recirculated" from Rack 'n Roll last year. The new CRio is smaller, why not the robots? A smaller footprint would force many teams to rethink their entire packaging scheme.

That line of thinking is both awesome and evil. I like it yet I hate it. Good work.

notmattlythgoe 07-12-2011 10:43

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HumblePie (Post 1089301)
On a slightly unrelated note, there has been a lot of speculation re: the return of minibots. Why not apply the "miniaturization" principle to the grown-up bot? The 38 x 28 footprint has been somewhat sacred lately, and it's possible that the GDC had issues with so many chassis designs being "recirculated" from Rack 'n Roll last year. The new CRio is smaller, why not the robots? A smaller footprint would force many teams to rethink their entire packaging scheme.

I'd love for the GDC to throw us a chassis curve-ball. Make people rethink their chassis designs.

ttldomination 07-12-2011 10:45

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe (Post 1089303)
I'd love for the GDC to throw us a chassis curve-ball. Make people rethink their chassis designs.

The thing about a curveball is that it's going to be thrown to everyone.

If you throw Pujols a nasty curveball and he misses, chances are very good that the rookie who just came out of AAA will also tighten up and miss.

- Sunny G.

Andrew Lawrence 07-12-2011 10:51

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe (Post 1089303)
I'd love for the GDC to throw us a chassis curve-ball. Make people rethink their chassis designs.

I'd love for them NOT to. I've planning out many different chassis for our team to use for this year, if applicable, and I don't want to see a smaller chassis ruin it! :ahh:

notmattlythgoe 07-12-2011 11:01

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256 (Post 1089306)
I'd love for them NOT to. I've planning out many different chassis for our team to use for this year, if applicable, and I don't want to see a smaller chassis ruin it! :ahh:

Exactly why it would be good if they did it.

Sandahl 07-12-2011 11:02

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Why do you think they have a Quantity collumn?

notmattlythgoe 07-12-2011 11:02

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ttldomination (Post 1089304)
The thing about a curveball is that it's going to be thrown to everyone.

If you throw Pujols a nasty curveball and he misses, chances are very good that the rookie who just came out of AAA will also tighten up and miss.

- Sunny G.

I don't mean that they should make it extremely difficult to make a chassis, just something different than the current field, kind of like '09.

EricH 07-12-2011 11:43

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcmolloy (Post 1089258)
Wasn't around for Aim High, however it looks as if they all funneled into a mesh type netting. I believe that pokey pokey stick helped clear the bunches of balls that were restricted from the netting.

Correct me if I am wrong Gary.

I was around, and that's sort of it, but not really.

The back of the goal was netting, but the exit was at the bottom (a sloped ramp led to a hole, which dropped balls one at a time through a tube to a trash can or tote in the player station). Due to the size of the hole, the jams tended to happen down there. Poking the pile usually allowed one at a time to drop in with no further effort (unless you had one of the Triplets, 254/968, and Pink or Killer Bees all opening fire--then you needed to be very careful with the stick to avoid descoring balls).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandahl (Post 1089310)
Why do you think they have a Quantity collumn?

To confuse us. No, actually: This is likely an exact quantity request list; when you fill one out, you put the part number, the quantity, and the price (and maybe a few other things like number on the list) for each and every item. Now, we don't need to know price (besides the fact we can look it up by part number if needed), and the quantity will tell us some of what is going on/where the part is used.

Tristan Lall 07-12-2011 12:58

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1089261)
You're aware that RSLogix5000 can use other programming methods, including structured text, right? And I'm curious as to why you'd want FIRST to keep a software package used frequently in industry away from teams, especially if your basis is simply because it uses ladder logic. It's not as if function block programming, as many teams use in LabView, is any better.

For all but the simplest tasks, ladder logic is pretty convincingly inferior to other types of programming that are possible on modern PLCs or computers running RTOSs; even for the simplest tasks, it's not universally better. I was going by Chris Elston's post referring to the fact that ladder logic is used on this hardware. If it does support other things, then that's excellent. If the behaviour of the hardware is identical using various programming methods, then that's even better. (So that implementing something in ladder logic wouldn't be necessary to achieving results equivalent to the competition setup. I doubt this is true, though, because most compilers for functional languages optimize automatically, which I have not known to be true for ladder logic—probably by design. Without having seen the application, I don't know if these differences will matter in the slightest.)

Incidentally, being frequently used in industry is not a sufficient reason to encourage teams to try something. Industry does lots of inefficient, uneconomical or otherwise illogical things because it has constraints that don't apply to teams or students learning engineering methods. Furthermore, assuming a finite amount of time to learn industrial techniques, it's not necessarily a good idea to split efforts between platforms.

HumblePie 07-12-2011 13:29

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall (Post 1089334)
For all but the simplest tasks, ladder logic is pretty convincingly inferior

I think we're looking at this all wrong........ if ladder logic is so outdated, why include it in the hint? Maybe that's the name of the game "Ladder Logic".... The endgame involves no stairs, no ramps.......it's ladders!: :eek:

EricH 07-12-2011 13:43

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HumblePie (Post 1089339)
I think we're looking at this all wrong........ if ladder logic is so outdated, why include it in the hint? Maybe that's the name of the game "Ladder Logic".... The endgame involves no stairs, no ramps.......it's ladders!: :eek:

They won't use that name. That's 1998's game. The very last game of the B.A. era, in fact.

B.A.: Before Alliances

Jon Stratis 07-12-2011 14:02

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HumblePie (Post 1089301)
On a slightly unrelated note, there has been a lot of speculation re: the return of minibots. Why not apply the "miniaturization" principle to the grown-up bot? The 38 x 28 footprint has been somewhat sacred lately, and it's possible that the GDC had issues with so many chassis designs being "recirculated" from Rack 'n Roll last year. The new CRio is smaller, why not the robots? A smaller footprint would force many teams to rethink their entire packaging scheme.

Keep in mind that Rack 'n Roll had different bumper rules than we enjoy today - specifically, you were not required to have bumpers around the entire robot. In fact, standard bumpers weren't even required at all - they were optional! As a result, many teams ended up with a chassis design that allowed a gap in the front which made tube mechanisms easier and more protected (as some of the mechanism would be recessed within the frame, with only the rollers sticking out).

The cRio is smaller, but the overall footprint required for the electronics is larger than it was with the old IFI system - Jaguars are larger than Victors, the PDB is larger than the distribution board we used to use, the cRio (even the new one) is significantly larger (in 3 dimensions) than the old robot controller - plus you have to have a digital sidecar attached, which increases the footprint even more.

With the KitBot chassis, I don't think the GDC is worried about recirculated chassis designs - We've used the exact same chassis (the KitBot) 4/5 years our team's been around!

Lil' Lavery 07-12-2011 14:08

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall (Post 1089334)
For all but the simplest tasks, ladder logic is pretty convincingly inferior to other types of programming that are possible on modern PLCs or computers running RTOSs; even for the simplest tasks, it's not universally better. I was going by Chris Elston's post referring to the fact that ladder logic is used on this hardware. If it does support other things, then that's excellent. If the behaviour of the hardware is identical using various programming methods, then that's even better. (So that implementing something in ladder logic wouldn't be necessary to achieving results equivalent to the competition setup. I doubt this is true, though, because most compilers for functional languages optimize automatically, which I have not known to be true for ladder logic—probably by design. Without having seen the application, I don't know if these differences will matter in the slightest.)

Incidentally, being frequently used in industry is not a sufficient reason to encourage teams to try something. Industry does lots of inefficient, uneconomical or otherwise illogical things because it has constraints that don't apply to teams or students learning engineering methods. Furthermore, assuming a finite amount of time to learn industrial techniques, it's not necessarily a good idea to split efforts between platforms.

I apologize if I missed the PLC on the parts list, but all I saw was RS Logix 5000, which is a software package. Not hardware.

Andrew Schreiber 07-12-2011 14:19

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Sorry for joining in late...

Quote:

Originally Posted by thefro526 (Post 1088933)
Not that I'm debating your point, but there is some logic behind connecting AM's new Pneumatic wheel to the 2012 Game.

In 2009, when everyone was forced to use the same wheel, AM built a custom wheel and was the sole supplier for it.

That being said, there has been a market in FRC for Pneumatic wheels since the pre-alliance days. Coming out with a pre-hubbed easy to use Pneumatic Wheel is just good business.

Dustin, I KNOW you heard the discussion in our cast a couple weeks back about the 2009 wheels. I'm pretty sure he outlined exactly what happened there. http://ewcp.org/blog/2011/11/13/insi...lier-andymark/

Warning: My next two comments add no value.


Quote:

Originally Posted by LedLover96 (Post 1089027)
Maybe the endgame could be throwing minibots into some mayan sacrifice fire to prevent the world from ending. Then we ccould rid the world of the minibot problem once and for all!

I like where this is going...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja_Bait (Post 1089072)
And the bumper rules...

... and again.

Mr B 07-12-2011 14:31

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
The Rockwell stuff is probably used for the field. Although ladder logic and such may not be cutting edge technology, it is very reliable and is used extensively in factory automation. The sensors do indicate that there will be some sort of flying object to be counted (I'm so happy). I wonder if they will finally use footballs. For years Dean has mentioned that FIRST is modeled after professional sports, and he sometimes references the NFL. A football throwing game would be both a challenge and a blast to play. Poof balls would be safe, but I do remember shredding several of them during Aim High. All of our practice balls ended up looking like asteroids.:D

Something to keep in mind though... the game design committee went through some pretty dramatic changes last year. This game could be like nothing we've seen. I just hope it can come close to the awesomeness we have seen in the past.

Tristan Lall 07-12-2011 14:46

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1089351)
I apologize if I missed the PLC on the parts list, but all I saw was RS Logix 5000, which is a software package. Not hardware.

I was assuming that the only application for RS Logix was to program PLC hardware (comparable stuff is used for PCs running RTOSs). However, I don't know with certainty whether that is correct. True, they don't appear to be getting any PLCs for free from Rockwell.

Ninja_Bait 07-12-2011 15:46

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HumblePie (Post 1089301)
On a slightly unrelated note, there has been a lot of speculation re: the return of minibots. Why not apply the "miniaturization" principle to the grown-up bot? The 38 x 28 footprint has been somewhat sacred lately, and it's possible that the GDC had issues with so many chassis designs being "recirculated" from Rack 'n Roll last year. The new CRio is smaller, why not the robots? A smaller footprint would force many teams to rethink their entire packaging scheme.

I like the sound of this, too. Perhaps they will set up something where a normal-sized robot will do fine, so new teams don't have to make the big adjustment, but also add a tunnel or a zone of some sort that is only navigable by a smaller robot - an elfbot, maybe? :cool:

pfreivald 07-12-2011 16:57

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Endgame: Minibots must climb up a ladder without touching the side rails...

Ninja_Bait 07-12-2011 18:42

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pfreivald (Post 1089399)
Endgame: Minibots must climb up a ladder without touching the side rails...

That's an interesting challenge. I can think of a few ways to do it, but I can't help but hate that everyone will have the exact same minibot by Nats.

Andrew Lawrence 07-12-2011 18:58

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr B (Post 1089361)
Something to keep in mind though... the game design committee went through some pretty dramatic changes last year. This game could be like nothing we've seen. I just hope it can come close to the awesomeness we have seen in the past.

True. While I do like the old GDC, I'd like to see what new innovations and ideas come up. Or, if you're not as optimistic, see what horrible things may occur. You know the horrible thoughts for game designs you've had before. People's minds can be scary places where lane violations are in every match, and all minibots look the same. *shiver

DavisC 07-12-2011 20:29

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Hmm... Extra thought, we've all been looking at this 1 way (how will each part be used?).
Anyone looking into What is NOT on the list? (what isn't on it that was in Aim High/Breakaway?)

zaphodp.jensen 07-12-2011 20:38

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DavisC (Post 1089446)
Hmm... Extra thought, we've all been looking at this 1 way (how will each part be used?).
Anyone looking into What is NOT on the list? (what isn't on it that was in Aim High/Breakaway?)

One slight problem, but your suggestion is still workable. There are thousands of possible parts that could be used, and that's just coming from Rockwell...

Andrew Lawrence 07-12-2011 20:55

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zaphodp.jensen (Post 1089454)
One slight problem, but your suggestion is still workable. There are thousands of possible parts that could be used, and that's just coming from Rockwell...

I think what he means is we can look at the previous games, and rule out objects/ideas that need pieces not in the new list.

For example, if we were playing a remade version of Triple Play, and had the field parts list, and didn't see the pressure plates, we could see that the pressure pads used for human loading wouldn't be in the new game, thereby eliminating that from the equation.

Still not an accurate thing to do, but it does something, I guess.

DavisC 07-12-2011 20:55

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
A random note.. But I found some prelude to Aim High #2.
Gotta see this: the mythbusters, a cannon, cannonball, and some bad aim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sCeTyAXFUI

see this too about it: http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/...ent+Goes+Wrong

Tetraman 07-12-2011 20:58

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256 (Post 1089423)
True. While I do like the old GDC, I'd like to see what new innovations and ideas come up. Or, if you're not as optimistic, see what horrible things may occur. You know the horrible thoughts for game designs you've had before. People's minds can be scary places where lane violations are in every match, and all minibots look the same. *shiver

My thought is, they are going to rehash an older game, but with a new concept. The first year as a new GDC is probably a little uneasy, so they might be revamping an older game with new concepts, game mechanics and end game. That's why they are designing the next year's game already, so early, because that year might be a whole new game all together.

of course...speculation...

BJC 07-12-2011 21:04

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tetraman (Post 1089469)
My thought is, they are going to rehash an older game, but with a new concept. The first year as a new GDC is probably a little uneasy, so they might be revamping an older game with new concepts, game mechanics and end game. That's why they are designing the next year's game already, so early, because that year might be a whole new game all together.

of course...speculation...

How many new people are actually on the GDC? I thought that the majority were still there..

Simspi182 07-12-2011 23:47

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
I don't know what to think about it but combined with the introduction of the kinect, plus the new FRC game hint (which includes a bunch of lights) I think that I can expect something very unexpected!!!

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/kinect

Marc S. 08-12-2011 00:37

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja_Bait (Post 1089383)
I like the sound of this, too. Perhaps they will set up something where a normal-sized robot will do fine, so new teams don't have to make the big adjustment, but also add a tunnel or a zone of some sort that is only navigable by a smaller robot - an elfbot, maybe? :cool:

Please no, 2010 was a real pain.

Ninja_Bait 08-12-2011 06:28

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc S. (Post 1089521)
Please no, 2010 was a real pain.

Amen to that, but small robots are still cool (THRUST's Delta in 2010 or Tumbleweed in 2008, for example.)

Jared Russell 08-12-2011 07:51

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr B (Post 1089361)
The sensors do indicate that there will be some sort of flying object to be counted (I'm so happy). I wonder if they will finally use footballs. For years Dean has mentioned that FIRST is modeled after professional sports, and he sometimes references the NFL. A football throwing game would be both a challenge and a blast to play. Poof balls would be safe, but I do remember shredding several of them during Aim High. All of our practice balls ended up looking like asteroids.:D

I have often thought about using footballs as well. The problem is, I struggle to think of reliable ways to count footballs using this hardware (they don't roll through counter chutes the same way as a round ball). If I were the GDC and I wanted to use footballs, I would probably design the game around static scoring.

Andrew Lawrence 08-12-2011 09:39

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared341 (Post 1089534)
I have often thought about using footballs as well. The problem is, I struggle to think of reliable ways to count footballs using this hardware (they don't roll through counter chutes the same way as a round ball). If I were the GDC and I wanted to use footballs, I would probably design the game around static scoring.

Maybe instead of rolling them back onto the field, the human players throw them! Like the tubes in Logomotion.

Jared Russell 08-12-2011 10:18

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256 (Post 1089549)
Maybe instead of rolling them back onto the field, the human players throw them! Like the tubes in Logomotion.

I'm not that worried about getting them back onto the field; moreso concerned that reliably counting them one at a time using a narrow IR beam would pose a fairly significant engineering challenge (which would be a dual to the challenge that teams would then have to solve in how to collect and orient football game pieces). If you have a chute that forces the balls into a constant orientation for counting, there may be jamming problems when a large number of balls are scored at once. If you just let the balls fall in whatever orientation they want, your counter runs the risk of double counting if balls are rotating as they fall.

Though I suppose they could go the Breakaway route, and make the counting of balls occur when the humans are putting the balls back onto the field. Hmm... :D

Walter Deitzler 08-12-2011 10:27

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256 (Post 1089549)
Maybe instead of rolling them back onto the field, the human players throw them! Like the tubes in Logomotion.

I see robot damage in our future...

thefro526 08-12-2011 10:27

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared341 (Post 1089552)
Though I suppose they could go the Breakaway route, and make the counting of balls occur when the humans are putting the balls back onto the field. Hmm... :D

IIRC, Breakaway's counting, at least for scoring was done in the goals.

The sensor on the ball return was only to ensure that you weren't holding onto the ball for longer than 15 seconds or so, right?

Had the score counter been on the ball return, that would've meant that any ball scored in the last 15 seconds of the match had to be returned to the field, which didn't always happen...?

notmattlythgoe 08-12-2011 10:28

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared341 (Post 1089552)
I'm not that worried about getting them back onto the field; moreso concerned that reliably counting them one at a time using a narrow IR beam would pose a fairly significant engineering challenge (which would be a dual to the challenge that teams would then have to solve in how to collect and orient football game pieces). If you have a chute that forces the balls into a constant orientation for counting, there may be jamming problems when a large number of balls are scored at once. If you just let the balls fall in whatever orientation they want, your counter runs the risk of double counting if balls are rotating as they fall.

Though I suppose they could go the Breakaway route, and make the counting of balls occur when the humans are putting the balls back onto the field. Hmm... :D

Breakaway used counters for going into the goal and back onto the field. There was the penalty for holding them too long.

Jared Russell 08-12-2011 10:33

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe (Post 1089555)
Breakaway used counters for going into the goal and back onto the field. There was the penalty for holding them too long.

Right, but it is feasible to use the return counter as the scoring counter (in fact, this is what happened at many offseasons that didn't have a full FIRST field).

PAR_WIG1350 08-12-2011 12:15

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FRC4ME (Post 1089236)
Whoa...I think this is the most substantial game hint I've seen. Not a cryptic phrase or an obscure photograph, but a parts list for the field? In a plainly readable format?

This is too easy. It must be a decoy. The real game hint is obviously steganographically encoded in the image. Come on CD'ers, start cracking...

I did look into stenography even before my first post in this thread (#184), the program was complaining that the file extension was .jpg instead of .JPG, so I gave up.

Ninja_Bait 08-12-2011 18:56

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared341 (Post 1089552)
I'm not that worried about getting them back onto the field; moreso concerned that reliably counting them one at a time using a narrow IR beam would pose a fairly significant engineering challenge (which would be a dual to the challenge that teams would then have to solve in how to collect and orient football game pieces). If you have a chute that forces the balls into a constant orientation for counting, there may be jamming problems when a large number of balls are scored at once. If you just let the balls fall in whatever orientation they want, your counter runs the risk of double counting if balls are rotating as they fall.

Though I suppose they could go the Breakaway route, and make the counting of balls occur when the humans are putting the balls back onto the field. Hmm... :D

The photogates can solve that if there's a goalpost type goal. Instead of rolling down a chute, they just pass through a hole or between a pair of uprights, and get picked up by the sensors.


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