First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

This was just posted on Bill's Blog:

Good Morning Teams,

Rockwell Automation has again agreed to generously donate components we need for the 2012 FRC season. Check it out. You may find it very interesting.



Taken From -
http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2011...me-hint-1.html

Thoughts?

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

I can see a lot of that is stuff that is always on the field. Would anyone who knows the field in detail be kind enough to separate the new from the old?

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

For those of you stuck behind firewalls:

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Very High Speed Counter, you say?

I think I like where this is going.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

My thoughts:
-It's getting close to kickoff!
-This list will be analized extensively by the CD comminity.
-There will 1001 ideas on how the items will be used on the playing field.

One observation:
They are not waterproof, so no watergame this year :(

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Blue lights Amber lights Green Lights and Red Lights...

Red blue green for FMS but the Amber Light???

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

252 of them, at that.

Would equate to 10-12 per field, depending on how many spares kept on hand.

Brings back memories of the good 'ol days of jamming goals with balls... ;)

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

That PHOTOSWITCH Photoeletric Sensor is interesting...infrared? Hmm...

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

If I remember correctly there are amber lights at the bottom of all the team stack lights, they are just never turned on. I say that because of their outside color, I haven't actually checked the inside of the amber section. Although, the differences in quantity seem to say that they are not for the same purpose. Stacklights seem to break pretty easily though, I can't imagine they would have them where the robot could hit it.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Hmmm. Intriguing.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

There's also 14 amber lights and only 4 of the each red/blue/green, of that style. But there's another set of exclusively red and blue lights so I think we're remaining at two alliances.

Lights are tricky... they could be an integral part of the game (poor example: king of the hill! race to the lit-up amber section!), or FIRST could have decided to turn on some amber lights during the end-game period to make it more obvious to everyone watching.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

The quantities of each item are also quite interesting...

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

That got my attention too at first glance.

Have they been used in the past? If so what was the use?

500 all together I wonder why so many..

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

A photo switch can be used in conjunction with software as a scoring counter. Every time the beam is broken, you'd add a count.

500 Sensors equates to ~26 per field, which isn't all that many.

Edit, just reread the list, and it's only 250 complete counter assemblies (13 per field). One sensor sends an IR beam and the other receives it.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

And many will be spares.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Maybe it's nothing related to the supplies, but the name of the company, Rockwell. Bill's other post was titled Over the River and Through the Woods...and now "rock"well...just my 2 cents. :yikes:

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Were those the same Green lights used with the camera in the past or different? I am interpreting the sensors to indicate small ball game.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Well the first thing that caught my eye was the word "touchscreen", I figured it was just for the score keepers but I wanted to take a look at it anyways.

Pulled up a picture and it does not look like the same touchscreen that they have used in years past. Maybe we will have some sort of touchscreen field-interface? Maybe we control parts of the field this year?! That would be kinda cool..

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

My first thoughts too. Another rapid fire Aim High style game with more goals!

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

It's not the parts, it's the thought that counts. You will "generously donate" your game pieces into your opponent's goal.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

<- This. I am going to make an educated guess as this is the 20th game... We started with Tennis balls and I think this may be the year of their glorious return... :)

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

the Kinect see's infrared.. Advanced imaging for the robots using the kinect?

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

My thoughts too, somebody on our team brought that up earlier. Maybe she has ESP?

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

That could explain the heavy field. If we are firing something dangerous like tennis balls, perhaps the field will be enclosed with plexiglass to prevent them from injuring referees/spectators/human players.

Though I would worry about team injuries throughout the season with such a challenge.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

I highly doubt we'll ever see regular sized tennis balls used as an FRC game piece again. They're far too small for FRC sized bots, and they'd make field reset take forever.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

The CE 1000 looks to me like what was used on the field this past year for the scorers, I can't remember the model number from the ones on the field but they don't look different to me.

Also, I can't think where there would be a limit switch in the standard field. I wonder what that will be used for? Maybe another minibot race :D?

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Not necessarily true. If they were to be done by volume (i.e. a 50gal trash can filled to the brim) they accuracy in terms of numbers isn't as important. As long as roughly the same volume is on the field at all times you are good to go.

As for the "field reset would take forever" arguer... I present to you the solution for fast resetting of a field covered in tennis balls: http://tinyurl.com/7x5l8bs

Hand that to a team of re-setters and you are off to the races.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Why does the size of the ball exclude it as an option? I think it is the perfect size. Several people thought Track Balls were too big. The function the balls will be used for and the quantity also play a factor. Also small ball games seem to tend to have challenging field structures such as regolith, stares, ramps, platforms, tunnels... been a while since stairs...

That's my guess Tennis balls and stairs

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

On the Touchscreen interfaces :

I volunteered a number of times last year, several times as an official scorer between regionals and post-seasons. I can't tell the difference and it seems that they are using the same model. We had to disassemble them when I was an FTAA at BattleCry and those seem to be the exact same model, I may be wrong but I'd assume their being using in the same capacity. I wouldn't count on teams using them. My guess would be they are being using to score autonomous or penalties same as last year.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

I'm still not convinced Chuck.

Imagine an FRC field with 100 tennis balls on it and teams attempting to drive around competently... (Running over tennis balls, getting them stuck in drives, high centering on a ball)

Would be worse than Lunacy, IMO.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

The very high speed counter is interesting.

Here are the specs for it:
http://samplecode.rockwellautomation...n011_-en-e.pdf

Maybe someone with a more electronics background can learn more by looking at that.

Looks like an "Aim High" style game, but this is page 3 of the Game Hint thread... when we get to page 9 is when we start figuring things out for reals.:p

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

The IR photoswitches listed here are typically used as matched pairs...



The outputs of the (250) photoswitches are likely inputs to the (~250) high speed counters.

Sure looks like some sort of real-time goal counter to me...

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Darn! I guess I did not pay close enough attention to the previous year's touchscreens.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

I see a lot of people dividing up the quantities across the fields, and I thought that at first, except for the number of items that would have to be shared between the fields...I think we're looking at one field of supplies here...

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

"At the moment we have an estimated 8,000lbs of polycarbonate sheets, four 1,000lb pallets of game specific steel elements, a pallet of aluminum, three 1,500lb pallets of a game specific item plus a fourth 1,000lb pallet of a different game specific item, two full pallets of gaffers tape, an entire pallet of carpet tape and multiple pallets of game pieces. None of which takes into account the existing field components we will be bolting, zip tying and otherwise attaching these items onto or the elements that have not been delivered yet." -from BB
just some food for thought...

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

There has been some recent discussion of this being a sport game (more specifically a football game) and this makes sense if they had the Photoelectric sensors to sense when the game piece crossed through the goalposts. After looking at the Aim High game animation i could see them doing something (with a football like game piece) similiar but with minibots as I think they are going to stay (could this be why we have the amber lights?)

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

I think so too... There are parts with quantities of 2 or 3 on this list. Does that mean there are going to be ~250 of the IR sensors per field? :yikes:

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

from that i just noticed there are two game specific field items that are similar but different. but there's approx. 4 times as many of the main item as the similar item...

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

this is the new materials in addition to the ones owned and stocked, so some are new for game reasons and some are for replacements...

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

So that still means that this is a list of parts for one field, correct?

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

some are for individual fields and some are for all fields and backups for if the ones on the field are broken

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

most likely

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Thinking about it, This would mean this is all the parts. So now i think this is the complete order

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

it is "Rockwell Automation has again agreed to generously donate components we need for the 2012 FRC season." -From BB

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

I think there are three possibilities as to what its a list of:
The list of new parts that RA is giving to FIRST this year
The BOM for all the fields put together
The BOM for one field.

I personally think that it is the list of items per field because the 6 DC power supplies and the 6 Ethernet/IP armor blocks, are things that I think I have seen inside of the scoring IOs / SCCs (particularly the Ethernet/IP armor blocks). Last year there were three of those Ethernet/IP armor blocks per alliance (one for team lights & stop buttons on the SCC, and one per scoring IO, of which there were two per side).

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

This also includes parts that come in the KOP as well.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

please note the 2500 signal lights we get every year, this is the total order not for just one field

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Good Catch.

Looks like that's the only KOP Item on the list though, unless some of the items are rookie KOP only. (Currently have ~2300 teams registered, no other item comes close to that.)

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Just an RPI 316 Alumni's opinion, but this is a crazy list...

As stated before: lights of colors have been used for tracking with camera which has gone away recently, could be back for auto.

The counter is interesting as as the photoswitch.

This list combined with the rumors of using kinect software/items makes me think this will be some kind of HP position where you have to run to an area and act as a pressure switch as in years past.

Just a thought... Good Luck FIRST, I miss you all so much!

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

My impression is that this is the total list of parts that Rockwell is donating to FIRST this year. It includes KoP items, as others have pointed out. It includes game-specific field elements, like the sensors others have discussed. And it includes items for the new fields FIRST is building (per Bill's Blog, there are two new fields this year, bringing the total to 19) - those new fields will require all new electronics, like the DC power supplies and Ethernet Blocks you've pointed out.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Thoughts collected so far:
-Unsure if this list is in total or per field.
-IR sensors used to see if something breaks the plain (kind of like a garage door if I'm not mistaken?)
-Counters count how many times a break in the plain occurs.
-Aim High revamp?

Thoughts to think about:
-Does this have any correlation to the choice of having a pre-recorded kick off?
-In autonomous, I see the robots having to break the plain of the IR senors, with the direction of the human player/driver using the connect.

Did I miss anything?

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

After seeing the KOP stuff, I think your right. I'm guessing that there will not be scoring IOs. (6 ethernet blocks, 1 per SCC, 3 SCCs per field (1 blue, 1 red, 1 spare), 2 fields). All that really amounts two is there are not two scoring elements to be triggered per alliance.

Oliver

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Rockwell Automation specializes in automation control and we know we are receiving a Kinect in the KOP and there are infrared sensors and very high speed counters on the hint list. More focus on robot control between driver/robot or robot/game piece, maybe?

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

A quick Google search for the part number with the highest quantity (855PB-B12ME522) revealed that in the past it was used as well:

"1/team from Michael Hunt, Kendall Electric, 269‐963‐5585
rest from http://shop.rockwellautomation.com "

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=855pb-b12me522&source=web&cd=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCIQFjAB&url=h ttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.usfirst.org%2FuploadedFiles%2FWher e%2520to%2520get%2520more%2520Rev%2520A.pdf&ei=XSX ZToDrMePz0gHorPz_DQ&usg=AFQjCNHxgShUjhVv0hM7AzIqBe WTztTLag&cad=rja

How many teams do we have competing this year that need one?

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Little background for those that don't know me. I am a Controls Engineer who uses Rockwell products on a daily bases. I also own a website mrplc.com. I thought I would link up all the parts to PDF incase the students are curious so everyone could see along with my commentary about each one.

I tried to just weed through what I have noticed on the field and what I think is new. I also typed this up at lunch and was in a hurry and did not really check my grammar or spelling so sorry about that...

The bottom line of below is there are alot of new count sensors on the field this year. The rest of the BOM (bills of materials) are the standard parts we have seen before.

BEGIN BIG OLD LIST....

1492-CJ6-2
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a913_-en-p.pdf
Nothing special with these parts, they are terminal blocks. They are found in the panel that houses the stratix network switch and power supplies. Typically the lights above the driver station, e-stop input and all things related to the red and blue alliance walls are terminated in these boxes. This would include anything with the series 1492, as this series AB numbers are terminal block and connectivity.

1492-CJ6-3
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a913_-en-p.pdf

1492-CJ6-4
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a913_-en-p.pdf

1492-EAJ35
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a913_-en-p.pdf

1492-EB3
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a913_-en-p.pdf

1492-0P3
http://literature.rockwellautomation...p001_-en-p.pdf
Circut breakers in the red and blue alliance junction boxes. It's good to have power protection. Nothing abnormal here.

1492-W4
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a913_-en-p.pdf
More terminal blocks.

1492-W4-G
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a913_-en-p.pdf

1492-WFB4
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a913_-en-p.pdf

1585A-DD4JD
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a500_-en-p.pdf
These are industrial CAT5 cables. The field uses a Compact Logix PLC I believe last time I looked in the big black box one year at CAGE MATCH, and all the communication between the PLC, the Stratix Network switch, and the I/O blocks are done with EtherNET I/P. EtherNET I/P is a fieldbus protocol championed by them and AB released this to "ODVA". The point of the matter is that anything industrial generally has a better grade CAT5 cable, most of the time CAT6E rated cable that is shield. A better quality cable that you are going to find at your radio shack store, and also have the option of using a standard "M12" mm screw connector which gives the CAT5 cable a sort of "IP" ingress protection. Anything below that starts with 1585 have to do with standard field cables that connect all the communication between all the devices, PLC, HMI (touch screen), Armor I/O blocks etc.

1585D-M4TBDM-0M3
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a500_-en-p.pdf

1585D-M4TBJM-1
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a500_-en-p.pdf

1585J-M4TBJM-0M6
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a500_-en-p.pdf

1585J-M4TBJM-5
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a500_-en-p.pdf

1606-XLP100E
http://literature.rockwellautomation...p009_-en-e.pdf
Power supply unit found inside th red and blue alliance junction box, seen these before. There are actually two of them in the box, one that is a standard 24 VOLT and the other one is 12 VDC. This one was added to supply the PC Class Mates when you bring your driver station to the wall is what I noticed one year. All other devices, such as the driver alliance lights etc, use 24 VDC as the standard voltage. This is an industry standard.

1606-XLP50B
http://literature.rockwellautomation...p005_-en-e.pdf
This is the 12 VDC power supply I mentioned above.

1732E-16CFGM12
http://literature.rockwellautomation...n004_-en-e.pdf
These are the I/O blocks at the end wall as well red and blue alliance. Where all the I/O connection happen, not really anything special once again, we have seen these blocks before.

1738-AENT
http://literature.rockwellautomation...n017_-en-e.pdf
Now here is where is gets interesting....this is an EtherNET I/P node slave module. It requires an IP address and then is configurable to "stackable" I/O modules. You can build your remote I/O station with these AENTs. They are very flexible. QTY (63) slave units is alot...There is alot of I/O here.

1738-VHSC24M23
http://literature.rockwellautomation...n011_-en-e.pdf
And once again, these are the stackable modules that plug into the AENT module and appear as I/O. This is a special module to register INPUT data. It's considered a REMOTE I/O block that terminates local sensors. Then transmits it's data from a sensor, to the AENT module, which then sends the data up to the PLC via Ethernet I/P. QTY (252) high speed count modules is an awful lot of modules...Add that to the Emitter and Transceiver BEAM photoeyes below, and you got yourself somewhat a high speed counter.


199-DR1
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a913_-en-p.pdf
Standard DIN RAIL, to mount all the components in an electrical enclosure, your power supply, terminal blocks, and circuit break already mentioned would mount on this rail.

2711P-T10C4A6
http://literature.rockwellautomation...n029_-en-p.pdf
These are the standard touch panels that you see on the corner of the field. I have seen QTy (4) per field. This is what the scoring refs use.

42SML-7100
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a501_-en-p.pdf
These are those photoeyes the beam sending unit that will probably be wired to the high speed input modules above. AKA, a game piece counter of some sort, high speed for some reason.

42SMR-7100
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a501_-en-p.pdf
These are the receiving unit for the part number above. As others have already said, when the light beam is broken, it typically resisters an input condition which is probably counted in the high speed module and up to the PLC to keep track of.

60-2152
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a501_-en-p.pdf
Brackets for the above sensors.

800F-1MM2
http://literature.rockwellautomation...g001_-en-p.pdf
We have seen these, this is the plastic box that holds the e-stop button at the driver station. The button you never wanna hit.

802B-CSDDBSLD4
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a505_-en-p.pdf
This is a new sensor I have not seen on the field. Once again probably another counting sensor for the game piece. QTY (168) of these is alot of limit switch sensors for the field.

855E-LL24B
http://literature.rockwellautomation...g001_-en-p.pdf
These are the LED modules at the scoring table, part of the stack light that tells the scoring people when all the robots have communications.

855E-LL24R
http://literature.rockwellautomation...g001_-en-p.pdf

855PB-012ME522
http://literature.rockwellautomation...g001_-en-p.pdf
This is the amber light in the kit of parts. It's required to be located on the robot and connected to the RL output on the digital side car. With QTY (2500) that means that BOM item was placed in the KOP. That's alot of lights over the past 3 years I remember using them! Can you imagine being a part supplier for FIRST? You would need to supply QTY (2500) of the parts...wow..

855T-B00XN7
http://literature.rockwellautomation...g001_-en-p.pdf

855T-B24TA1
http://literature.rockwellautomation...g001_-en-p.pdf
Part of the scoring stack light, nothing special the TONE you hear when all robots are ready, then the stack light goes GREEN.

855T-B24TL3
http://literature.rockwellautomation...g001_-en-p.pdf

855T-B24TL4
http://literature.rockwellautomation...g001_-en-p.pdf

855T-B24TL5
http://literature.rockwellautomation...g001_-en-p.pdf

855T-B247L6
http://literature.rockwellautomation...g001_-en-p.pdf

855T-BCBC
http://literature.rockwellautomation...g001_-en-p.pdf

855T-BPM10
http://literature.rockwellautomation...g001_-en-p.pdf

879D-F4AET5M-1
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a500_-en-p.pdf
This is a standard cordset for industrial sensors. It's a "Y" cable. Typically you use these when you have an emitter and transceiver sensor setup. One half of the Y cable has power only to the transceiver sensor. Typically the BLUE wire is 24 VDC common, the BROWN wire is 24 VDC hot. The other side of the "Y" cable has the input wire. It would use the BLUE and BROWN for power, then the BLACK wire is the signal wire for the emitter half of the sensor.

888D-M4AC6-0M3
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a001_-en-p.pdf
The rest of this is cordsets for said sensors.

888D-M4AE1-0M3
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a001_-en-p.pdf

889D-E4AE-2
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a001_-en-p.pdf

889D-F4AE-5
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a001_-en-p.pdf

889D-F4AEDE-10
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a001_-en-p.pdf

889D-R4ACDE-10
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a001_-en-p.pdf

889D-R4ACDE-5
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a001_-en-p.pdf

889M-V12AH-5
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a001_-en-p.pdf

889N-R4AF-6F
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a001_-en-p.pdf

9324-RLD000ENE
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a001_-en-p.pdf
Non-development license of RS Logix 5000 (typically used for maintenance people). Only allows upload and download of PLC ladder.

9324-RLD300ENE
http://literature.rockwellautomation...a001_-en-p.pdf
Standard license, but they purchase two licenses, so that must mean FIRST has QTY (2) field development engineers as that is two licenses. It would be neat to live near headquauters, I wouldn't mind seeing if I could get involved in the development of the field scoring system. I use this software EVERYDAY at work. It's called ladder logic.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Great job Chris

/end thread

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Clearly, the endgame will be an autonomous minibot using the Kinect to control the robot...

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

I love the tennis ball idea and I also agree that they are too small for a FRC robot.

PS Wilson makes 9" tennis balls, Aim High part 2.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

DITTO

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

a 9" tennis ball... seems not too many places carry those (I only found 3 places in the twin cities) as they are designed mostly for use as conversation and autograph pieces. That definitely goes with the "hard to obtain" game piece rule!

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

I don't see why this would stop FIRST from using them... Any problems like that are just part of the challenge, yeah?

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

If you take a look at Bill's post on November 16th he said that there were over 8000lbs of polycarbonate sheets, and 5500lbs of game specific elements. I'm thinking small and heavy game pieces. My first guess was Golf Balls. Any thoughts?

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Very simple reason for not using standard tennis balls.

Watch how many teams in FTC struggle to drive on a field littered with racquetballs and you'll understand why a field littered with tennis balls could lead to the most boring matches ever.

(Also, what is the relation between this year and tennis balls? Last year was FIRST's 20th Season. Wouldn't Tennis balls have made more sense then?)

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

It looks like this is a complete list of what RA is donating. Many of the small quantity items are either packages of 10, 50, or 100 or what is needed to make the 2 new fields.
For anyone interested, I've compiled and attached a spreadsheet of all the items with links to their item pages and the number of items in the package.

EDIT: I started this before Chris made his excellent post, but I'm leaving it because it has some information not in his post

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

This is the 20th FRC game

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

No It's Not.

1992: Maize Craze (1)
1993: Rug Rage (2)
1994: Tower Power (3)
1995: Ramp n Roll (4)
1996: Hexagon Havoc (5)
1997: Toroid Terror (6)
1998: Ladder Logic (7)
1999: Double Trouble (8)
2000:Co-Operatition FIRST (9)
2001: Diabolical Dynamics (10)
2002: Zone Zeal (11)
2003: Stack Attack (12)
2004: Raising The Bar (13)
2005: Triple Play (14)
2006: Aim High (15)
2007: Rack n Roll (16)
2008: Overdrive (17)
2009: Lunacy (18)
2010: Breakaway (19)
2011: Logomotion (20)

This is the 21st game.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

I don't count 2009. I like to pretend it didn't happen. ;)

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Double check your math...Logomotion was the 20th.

[WATERGAMESPECULATION] But it is the 20th anniversary of rug rage, the only "Water game" in FRC history . :p [/WATERGAMESPECULATION]

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Yes, but it also takes away from the spectator aspect, as seeing tennis balls from the stands would be just as much of a challenge.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

I was just thinking about how I would use this stuff if I was a GDC. Then I read this thread and my brains melted completely. I'm a game hint zombie now: "Urrrgh... Must read Bill's Bloooooogggghhh...."

Anyway, what if the infrared photosensors are just for checking boundary lines? I don't know what their range is, but if it's reasonably long they could certainly be used to check when robots go into alliance lanes or make laps around a track or are above a certain level, things we usually leave to refs, but could automate if the game demands more precision than is achieved by the human eye.

Most of this sounds like the usual stuff, though, so I'm guessing this is like the field entrance gate clue in 2010 - in addition to pinpointing the unusual items, we should consider the possibility of an unusual use for ordinary items.

Also, Rockwell like Norman Rockwell, the famed painter of the modern Santa Claus? Plus Elfbot? Plus "...to Grandma's house we go"? Plus "mull" like mulled cider? Sounds like a theme to me. WE'RE GIVING UP ON ROBOTS AND HAVING A MASSIVE HOLIDAY PARTY! Woot.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

On the other hand it is the 20th anniversary of Maize craize :yikes:

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

My team is currently in the process of over-analyzing the game hint. We've sent 2 rookies and 2 veteran team members (One being myself,) on a mission to find out what each donated part is.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Not according to FIRST?

Championship Documentation Referring to 2011 as the 20th Anniversary of FRC's inaugural competition. Didn't anyone see all of the 20th Anniversary stuff last year?

Anyway, at least now I know where everyone was getting tennis balls from.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

This is, at least, a solid counter-argument.

As far as driving issues, I figure FIRST would say, "make your robot so it's not a problem and it won't be a problem".

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

I would never count out anything as a game piece... Especially tennis balls.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Hardest rules for refs last year? Minibot deployment times. Could the photorecepters help with the equivaliant of launching something early and sending a signal to deactivate the new tower?

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Well, based on some of the items in that list, it sounds like FIRST is planning to count out quite a few of the game pieces, and at high speed, too!

:cool: yeahhhhh!

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

My short perusal would indicate the same thing... counting mechanisms...
high count -counting mechanisms which of course could be used for low counts too...

If high counts are needed it could either be large numbers of objects on the field OR the anticipation of large numbers of objects all at ONE time...say perhaps in the end game.

High speed would also probably mean round... spherical...because other types of objects don't move through a scoring position quickly...

tennis balls - probably not... real easy to get up to speeds above 100 mph.
this provides a danger for refs, staff and spectators.. unless the speeds are controlled...

Same issue (in SPADES) for golf balls...

If I were guessing... wiffle balls...high initial speeds possible but they quickly slow down... limited flight...
these have been used in other competitions (FTC-VEX)
Cheap, easily obtainable...pretty visible if you get the yellow ones..

size...probably the softball sized ones...

Or perhaps a return to poof balls (hmmm in honor of the 254's CMP alliance win last year?... just kidding)

Those are excellent projectiles of a relatively smaller size... fairly easy to obtain... terminal velocity characteristics are pretty good....we have precedent for their use...

just my ideas... what say you?

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Alright. I'll get to work with what I did last year and design a game based on this hint. Give me a day or two though...this looks like a challenge.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

I don't know if anyone has thought of this yet, but:
The Photo sensors they are using(RA 42SMR--7100) have an effective FOV of 8 degrees,
So if they are using these for sensing a goal being scored, it could be a small goal, the sensors could be spaced farther away inside the goal, or they would have multiple sensors per goal. Does this sound right?

Spec sheet: http://literature.rockwellautomation...a501_-en-p.pdf
page 110

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Exactly. If the Orbit Ball passes muster, anything could pass muster.

*looks forward to the jello cube game*

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

I also highly doubt they will use tennis balls as they are so small, the 1992 robots were the size of modern day FTC robots. That would be a pretty low kitbot to eliminate the driving issues!

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Yes. :ahh: :ahh: :ahh: about sums it up.

Or more, if there are multiple parts/pieces per kit.

Me too. :) I say scrap all this cRIO stuff - PLC-controlled robots for everybody! ::safety::

Thanks for all the P/N information.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Rockwell *sang* "Somebody's Watching Me". In 2012 FIRST, field watches you.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Ladder logic n. archaic 1. How to program old stuff, slowly. 2. The 1998 FRC game.

So you can imagine my sense of revulsion when I saw the RSLogix stuff. Fortunately, I think FIRST is going to keep it far from the robots. Its presence implies to me that the game elements need to be processed/scored in a way that occurs too rapidly for humans—hence the sensors and PLC stuff—yet it's important enough to the game that teams will need it after kickoff to test with.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

As I see it, the only things the teams will have is the signal light, just like previous years. All of the rest will be buried in the field.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

I don't remember exactly but didn't one of bills blog's mention something along the lines of difficult driving conditions this year?

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

I think that maybe FIRST wanted us to think more then what the items going to be used as..
Maybe even the list it self is an hint or the amount of items in it.. I think we should think bigger..
My guess is the Kinect will be used to notice objects by those lights maybe we should be something very quickly or throw something very quickly and there will be this Very High Speed counter.. I'm just waiting to the #2 clue and try to finally understand more about the game..

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Whatever the photosensors are for, I don't want them to be for counting penalties, especially if they are like the ones this year! :ahh:

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Interesting. 2 of Allen Bradley stack units can produce noise / music / sounds. I wonder why.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Because the parts list includes both photosensors and those touchpads that the scorers use (Panelview plus CE1000 touch), I predict that this game will include both automatic and manual scoring. The Very High Speed Counters will be used for counting the automatic scoring.

The Panelmount selectable LEDs are most likely a kit item, seeing as there are 2500 of them.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Guys, guys, guys. Calm down. It's not a water game. It's a mineral water game.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

The GDC finally took notice of teams' Mountain Dew capacities. They worked out a special deal with Pepsi...

This year's game is a High Fructose Corn Syrup game.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

No, no, no. Don't disregard past clues. Remember "mulling"? Apple Cider!

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

I see it being related to two things:
1. Pinball
2. Pushing buttons to do something/get something done.

But I dont know, thats how I see it.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

*slow-clap*

I think we found a winner.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Will the champs be crowed the "Pinball Wizards?" :p

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Instead of The Final Countdown we will listen to the Who's Tommy.

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

I would argue against wiffle balls - they have holes in them, which would make the photosensors (presumably used for tracking scoring in some way) unreliable - if it manages to "see" straight through the middle of a ball due to the holes, it could count that ball twice (the beam would break when the ball first enters, resume in the middle, then break again on the second half). The biggest thing I get from this is that the game pieces are likely solid (referring to the exterior - they could be hollow like a tennis ball, or solid all the way through like a billiard ball), spherical, and numerous. In other words, no Orbit Balls!

Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint
 

Now I am imagining a field shaped like a triangle... Slopes going down each side, the robot's goal is to score into a goal like a pinball game. Except the field is made out of regolith so you can't actually climb the triangle without traction. At the same time the top of the triangle is exactly like Breakaway's bumps. The game specific piece being a... bowling ball!!

I can already see kick-off... Telling us that we need to make our robots robust because there will be bowling balls flying around.

On top of all of this they will still make it a water game by creating a fountain of water all along the pinnacle of the triangle. The water is just a light stream of course, but we have to protect our robots from water damage!

I predict the 2012 game will be the best game ever!