Practice Time
 

Our team, 1730, is planing our season. We are working on how much time we want everything to take. Brainstorm, Design, Prototype, Build, Practice, and we are debating how much time a driver needs of practice to be successful before the robot is bagged. We have decided 100 hours would be enough time for the driver to get buttons and remote settings customized and learn everything about his or her robot. For a driver to make it to Einstein how many hours do they need under their belt before their first regional?

Re: Practice Time
 

There is not a direct answer to this other than a driver can never have enough time to practice.

I know a lot of teams that build a second bot (practice bot) that is identical or very close to the actual competition bot and practice with the bot on an almost daily basis. To be a 'good' driver is knowing the controls and limitations of the robot instinctively. However, I challenge you and the drive team to become better than 'good' drivers. To reach 'Einstein' quality, requires much more than driving skills. Additional skills are needed, such as listening to drive team/coach, working with alliance/strategy set forth for the match, remaining calm and poised under pressure, the ability to learn from mistakes, and communication skills for what they feel is wrong with the robot or how to improve something.

It is similar to a good vs top tier quarterback.

Re: Practice Time
 

Tim-tim, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Re: Practice Time
 

Practice time makes a huge difference, and I think Tim-Tim said it perfectly as it pertains to a competition. Making it to Einstein starts before kickoff. Having an effectively trained, motivated team that works together very well will bring a great start to the season. After kickoff, a well thought out strategy and a well-designed robot will improve you chances. You guys always produce quality robots, but it doesn't stop there. Making it to Einstein requires the effort to never stop improving. Once you have a great robot and strategy, practice will make you even better. In terms of driving, some teams aim to have their drive base done and operational by week 2. As far as actual practice time, i dont think there is a specific number...but more probably wont hurt. Best of luck this season!

Disclaimer: I haven't actually been to Einstein, so I'm only guessing that what I said is about right.

Re: Practice Time
 

I understand how 2 weeks is a more viable option for top teams, but I've been researching bases like the kitbot on steroids and it seems to be something easily completed in a day or so. A simple electronics board can easily be mounted on from there, and you're set. If the game permits it, we should have our base done by Wednesday or Thursday, 4 or 5 days after. We plan to have the electronics for it being built at the same time, essentially having a drivable base by the end of the 1st week. I've read a lot about teams having whole bases and drives completed by the 2nd week, but with the method we're thinking of, it seems like a viable option to have it done in the 1st week. Is there anything I'm not getting here?

Re: Practice Time
 

What you're missing is that the kitbot comes pre-designed and is ready to go together (with modifications if you so choose). Teams reaching for a week 2 drivebase are usually designing from scratch, so it takes them a little longer.

-Frenchie

Re: Practice Time
 

I think it depends on the drive system. The KoS could probably be done in one day, but if you have a custom chassis and all that jazz it takes longer, plus everything needs to be machined. Having it done by week 1 is a viable option for a kitbot or KoS, having it done by week 2 is also viable depending on the team. Some teams may take even longer, depending on complexity. How long does a swerve take to build? (just curious). I am in no way an expert on drive systems though, so I apologize for any confusion. The point of the post was geared more towards practice time and making it to Einstein.

Re: Practice Time
 

In my mind, you can never get enough driver practice. I drove last year, and I was very displeased with the amount of practice I was able to squeeze in. This year, we are striving to be much different, but we can never be so sure. Practice time is always give or take, every year it changes. Driver practice is so critical because you are able to figure out the flaws of your robot, and go beyond them. So I guess my answer to your question is they can never get enough. The, "good" drivers know they never have had enough driver practice. And driver practice shouldn't stop even after you get past your first regional.

-D

Re: Practice Time
 

Will.I.Am can answer this question, since you "just can't get enough"! /lame joke/

Re: Practice Time
 

With COTS parts we built it in a week. Perfecting the programming took a little longer. However, we never got much drive practice (our portable is very small).

If you want to go swerve, prototype in the off season so that people can learn how to drive it. Swerve is very different from anything else.

Re: Practice Time
 

I know that much, I was jut asking for purposes of reference as to how long some drive systems take. I'm guessing that custom designed ones take even longer (if you haven't gotten it down to a science like some teams).

Re: Practice Time
 

The term "practice" is somewhat vague. Some teams practice on full fields others on shop floors and hallways. The difference in how robots hadel on different surfaces is noticable. Also practicing alone or with other robots is another big difference. Our team hosts a pre-ship event where many local teams get together and practice on a field together. Some years there are only several working robots but it gives us a better idea on how robots will interact.

Re: Practice Time
 

Let me throw some numbers at you.

As a rule it takes aproximatly 100 hours to master most motor skill driven activities. After these 100 hours the amount of improvement is very little. At the same time it takes between 30-60 minutes for one to even become accustomed to said motor skill.

Many teams are unable to practice before shipping. This means that by the time eliminations come around 9 matches x 2 min = 18 minutes of stick time. These drivers are not even going to be compendent on the sticks.

Having even a couple of hours of driving time in the last day of build season will put you leagues ahead of most other teams in terms of driving.

The powerhouse teams, however, build two robots and generally have a full field or close to it. These teams treat driving like a sport. In normal sports you wouldn't take a break from practice the week before the big game. These teams practice driving for several hours every day just like a sport.

Regards, Bryan

Re: Practice Time
 

I love all the creative responses guys, but I was looking through the responses and I would love a specific number. Some possibilities are looking through previous years or teams could share their plans for this year.

Re: Practice Time
 

The point is, there is no specific number that is a ticket to Einstein. In 2011, we got about 6 hours of practice before our competition during the last few days of build. This allowed for debugging timethat didn't have to be done on Thursday so we were able to spend all day Thursday practicing. Some teams have more, many have much less. If you want a decent amount of time, make sure everything is done by the end of week 5 (at the latest). Staying on track is the tough part though (at least for us).

Re: Practice Time
 

It's almost impossible to exactly plan practice time(s), and is just as hard to accurately count how much time you have practiced in the past. The key is to just have as much practice as possible, and though you shouldn't rush building your robot, don't dilly-dally either. We have 45 days in the build season, so use your time wisely. Learn the challenge, strategize and plan what you want to try to build, spend time building, and spend equally as much trying your machine out and practice using it. Knowing how to properly use and control your robot is just as important as constructing it.

Exactly; just because you put in x-hours of practice time, that is not going to automatically place you on Einstein. That would make it too easy, and take away all the fun and excitement ;).

Re: Practice Time
 

Our team only meets about 120 hour total through out the entire season. I imagine you guys have a lot of drive team only meeting?

Re: Practice Time
 

You want a specific number, you say.

I will tell you that back when I was on 330, we had the following on various years, in various forms:

Lots and lots of practice field time at events (I wasn't exactly keeping track--but IIRC, the practice field and filler line were utilized heavily while we had batteries to spare.)

Lots and lots and lots and lots of practice time at our home facility with robot #2 (built first), starting around Week 4--we had to replace treads on the wheels more than once, found out about a side-loading weakness in a particular AM wheel design the hard way (it's since been fixed), and quite a few battery cycles. As I understand it, later practice sessions started with most of the batteries full, took a break when all the batteries were empty (and charging), and then put another round of practice in until the batteries needed charging again. I wouldn't say that happened every night... but several nights a week, before and between competitions. This started in 2007. (Count hours? Nope, I don't think they did. Takes too much time away from practicing!)

You want a specific amount of time, you get a stopwatch and start as soon as driver practice starts using something like the above. Stop when it ends. Record the time. Wash, rinse, repeat... and add up the time at the end of the season. (OK, maybe note when events happened...)

That's how you get a specific number. Then you can plan accordingly in following years.;)

Re: Practice Time
 

The way our team does it is we have two robots done within two to three weeks. Then the remaining time is all improvements and programming. Lots and lots of programming just for the ease of the driver, so a driver who has programming experience would make a great driver.

Re: Practice Time
 

Practice is not a number. It's a practice.

Re: Practice Time
 

This ^

Re: Practice Time
 

No driver in FRC has ever practiced too much. Unless it interferes with school, life, etc.

Re: Practice Time
 

Your chances of getting 100 hours of practice in prior to ship are zero. In 11 years I've never been involved with a build that ended with the robot having been fully operational for more than 5-7 days. If you practiced for 8 hours a day for 14 days you would barely break 100 hours and there's no way you could practice 8 hours a day.

I can tell you that overall drive time for our drivers is probably more than 100 hours. No way to put an exact number on it though.

Re: Practice Time
 

In 2009, when our robot was done at the beginning of week 4, we logged an estimated 50hrs of practice. I would show up to school at 5pm or so, and drive it until ~10pm. This really showed when we went to our First event.

2009 was an Anomaly though, usually we're 'finished' somewhere in week 5 - so we'll practice for about a week along with system debugging.

In any case, you can never practice too much like Mr. Picone said in a post above.

An interesting thing to look at along with the amount of time practiced is the quality of the practice. Driving by yourself on an empty field will probably get you comfortable with the robot - but throwing another robot or five into the mix will get you comfortable with the game.

Re: Practice Time
 

Practice time is more than just about making drivers better it's also about making your robot better.

Time on your bot will show it's weaknesses and allow you to fix things and make improvements before you ever go to a regional. Spending Thursday and Fridays at regionals fixing your robot won't make you a picker or get you picked on Saturday.

Having a practice robot last year helped point out a major flaw that would have been difficult to fix and would have crippled us at our first regional.

Break/fix time is extremely valuable.

Re: Practice Time
 

Great point made