Coopertition award hint?
 

Forgive me if someone's already seen this, but Radical Pi on my team just pointed this out to me. Looking through the administrative manual, the cooperition award minuses the qualification score. There are two possible explanations for this:

Emphasis mine.

It is designed to make it easier for worse teams to win it, which seems unlikely, it shouldn't be a consolation prize. The second option is that better teams should win it, and a low score is better than a high score. What game is this true in? Golf. What year are we on? Based on a real sport year. What year are we on? A ball year. What are heavy game pieces? Golf balls. I have no idea how a game like this would work, but it all seems to fit together. Thoughts?

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

It goes with slopes, and golf balls go at high speeds. They aren't very safe, however, which eliminates the possibility in my mind.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

Nets around the field? That could be heavy as well.

The one final piece of the puzzle we haven't been factoring in is the Kinect. Allowing human control with it should help accuracy, so a game that requires accuracy, based on golf, with a different gamepiece could be interesting. We also haven't had a 'hording' (ie 2009, 2006) year recently, so lots of small balls are probable.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

I think more likely is that super-high-scoring teams are being penalized for this award. Think of Ranking points as recently as last year, where each team got the other alliance's score - so a blowout score of 100-to-2 was a disadvantage to the winning team, while a close game score of 52-49 was an advantage

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

The game doesn't necessarily have to use golf balls for it to be similar to golf. I think it could make use of a large number of different balls and play similarly to golf and use the same scoring style. An interesting find. Guess we'll just have to wait a few days and see.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

That seems probable. It doesn't necessarily have to be real golf balls. Basketballs may make a good bigger system. They're heavy and bounce without thrashing quite as much. Golf would be fun.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

Just to resurrect for current discussion a bills blog from a while ago, entitled 'The wooden beams have started creaking'

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

Great find Tuesday! (May I call you Tuesday? Grim doesn't seem like a nice name to greet people by. :\) While it is something to think about, I also like to stop and admire FIRST's doing this. It's a very interesting score, and can constitute for many things.

Personally, I think the Cooperatition score will be a large range of numbers (ie. 0-200), and then then the game score is subtracted from that. A larger range of Cooperatition scores make it so that low scoring teams with little to no cooperatition don't get it as a consolation, and high scoring good cooperatition teams can't get it either, because their high score lowers their score. This leaves behind the teams that didn't score very high, but followed the rules of FIRST, Gracious Professionalism, and Cooperatition that have an evened out score. Example below:

Team 1 is a low scoring team with a low cooperatition score:
Score: 40/100 Cooperatition score: 50/200
Team 2 is a high scoring team with a high cooperatition score:
Score: 90/100 Cooperatition score: 170/200
Team 3 is a mid scoring team with a high cooperatition score:
Score: 50/100 Cooperatition score: 160/200

Team 1's final score is 10
Team 2's final score is 80
Team 3's final score is 110

Because of this, team 3 who competed admirably and graciously, but did not score well, wins the award.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

Someone deduced (at some point in the recent past :D ) that the game pieces were small and heavy, based on one of bills posts. Basketballs aren't exactly small, but i agree that it could be a golf-like game with some other type of ball.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

I'm curious. How did they come to that conclusion?

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

From "The wooden beams..." blog post, and some unknown knowledge of the maximum volume of a pallet. I wish i could tell you who, or where, but my memory is slipping me and running a quick search didn't yield the source.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

Hmmm... that'd be interesting to do. We could google the volume of a pallet for balls then look up the mass per pallet ratio and deduct the game element! Unless the element is ridiculous.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

But wouldn't we need to know the number of elements on each pallet? Assuming you're trying to get the mass of each individual element from the mass of the pallet, and then try and find a possible element with that approximate mass...

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

Couldn't we find the number of elements on the pallet based on the volume of the pallet? I'm saying we could find the total volume each pallet could hold, then we could look up each plausible game element's weight and volume and calculate how much each pallet would weigh with each game element filling it. But then again, other game elements could infect each pallet making that impossible without knowing the mass of just the manipulated game element (avoiding the term ball because for all we know, its a frisbee). But it's still worth a shot? It wouldn't be 100% accurate by any means, but its better than nothing.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

Lets do it.

Oh and also, in response to Supernerd256 above, you can call me Tuesday if I can call you Super!

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

Seriously? We could divide up the labor, if we assign each person the volume and mass for a game element, then someone for the pallet volume and weight of the pallet, we could finally do some formula mashing to find out the most plausible game element. Any suggestions for game objects?

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

Great! From now on, you're Tuesday, and I'm Super, although that sounds "oddly self-serving". :)

-Quote from Spock, Star Trek 2009 movie (Greta movie, though original series was better)

By original, I mean the old ones are better than the new ones, not just the original series being the first one.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

I'm more of a Next Gen fan....

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

I'm saying old is better than new. Next gen is included in that.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

Getting off topic now...though, it is a speculation/possible hint thread, I guess there never is any real topic to these. ::ouch::

Dean is probably watching us from his cozy mansion in Manchester, laughing at our insanity, and at how much we manipulate and over-analyze the simplest, unimportant things into such a big discussion.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

What about a racquet ball game?

this utilizes the kinect hence a racquet and hit the ball allowing user input... it can used tennis balls which are small...

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

He may also be thinking to himself: "Fools, Star Trek DS9 was the best." (Though I am a TNG fan)

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

Don't forget staring at the full game field in his helicopter hanger.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

back to the topic at hand, who's willing to help overanalyze the pallets' weights and volume to attempt to discover the playable game element? :D

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

I'm curious how they are actually defining "Qualification Score." If they define it based on the ranking system last year, that would mean that you would be in a better position if your opponent didn't score as well and your scores are traded. Alternately, it could be defined as raw score, which would make it better for teams that score less. Or it could be an interesting equation like they did in 2010, if I remember correctly, where it was something along the lines of as a winner you get twice the losing alliances score, and the losing alliance gets the their score without a multiplier plus the winning alliances' score (I don't remember, it was something interesting). If we were to judge this on teams who have equivalent coopertition scores, aka teams that fared the same in terms of coopertition, then the first way would favor the high scoring team, the second way would actually favor a low scoring team, and the third way would have to depend on what kind of crazy equation they can come up with. I think they would favor a mid scoring team if multiple teams got the same coopertition score, so I'm curious if they've come up with some crazy equation for the Qualification Score. Gosh, now I'm even more excited for Kick-Off :D


Just some food for thought. I'm bubbling over now to read those rules, I can't wait for Saturday :)


edit: whoops, math mistake, got rid of that silly paragraph

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

And let the helicopter remain exposed to the elements? I think not. That was likely a temporary set-up which was removed after the video was filmed.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

Um, M comes before S...


It is (2 x CoS) - QuS

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

Very true! Unless he has a second hangar where he moved it to. O.O

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

Using PEMDAS, doesn't 2 x CoS - QuS = (2 x Cos) - Qus? It doesn't matter if the parentheses are there or not, the multiplication would occur before the subtraction.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

I can almost guarantee that the kinect will not be used to control the robot. It would just be clunky, awkward, and unsafe. Its most likely going to be used as a camera with depth perception ON the robot.

Just throwing that out there.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

I was about to say "hop to!"...and then realized that we don't know the volume of whatever's on these pallets...

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

We can google the average pallet size! and other that other junk I typed earlier. lol.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

Here it is:
Tell me if any of my reasoning is wrong. I try to stick to topics other than guesstimating. lol.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

Whooooops. That's right. Ah well, my Christmas vacation just ended, I guess I'm a bit rusty:o

So that would mean that they want the Coopertition score to outweigh the deduction from the Qualification score by a bit. I think I like that...make it more to do with the score itself, and put the deduction in there to separate the close calls.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

Keep in mind that the actual pallet is just the wooden structure that a load rests on to make it more forklift/etc-friendly. There isn't really an average size for loads ;)

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

That makes me feel intelligent. -sarcasm- Oh well, maybe I'll figure out something else to waste my time on. That explains why all my googling only gave two dimensions. Lol.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

You're making a lot of assumptions about the Coopertition score to come to the conclusion that "low qualifying score = good". Without knowing anything about how said score is calculated, I don't know if you can say much about what this means.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

Actually there is.

USDOT and Milspec (35 × 45.5 in / 889 × 1,156 mm). max weight ~ 2200 Lbs.


This size is used to accomodate going through doors.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

Woah! So it's not all for naught! :D

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

However, from what I understand, there are multiple standards from multiple countries and from multiple companies, so there isn't a very reliable way to calculate it. :/ Unless we calculate it for each standard?

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

While it's true that there are multiple standards for the different countries, the standard I posted is typical for the American markets ... where FIRST HQ is located.

Now the height (and thus cubic volume) is not standardized at all and thus makes our job a bit harder.

I would assume (SWAG) a max heigh of ~5' (or 60") because of tipping issues.

Hence 60"x35"x45.5"=95550 cu in.
Divided by 1000 lbs (the fourth pallet of a game specific item)
the items mass is 95 cuin / 1 lb (or roughly 4.5"x4.5"x4.6" for 1 lb)

pallet size divided by 1500 lbs (the 3 pallets of a game specific item)
the items mass is 63.7 cuin / 1 lb (or roughly 4"x4"x4" for 1 lb)

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

I believe what Karibou was referring to was just that, that there were no height restrictions, so it'd basically just be a guess. But I'll go with your guess to run tests because I have nothing better to do until build season starts.
Football:
Volume filled: 2.54cm=1 inch 4237 cm cubed=258.557604 inches cubed
Volume unfilled (assuming the thickness of the of the bladder and such is .5 inches, in the absence of better data): pi*a(14cm)*b(8.5cm)=373.779 cm squared=57.9358609 inches squared*.5 inches= 29.9680 inches cubed.
mass (filled): 411g+9.67g=420.67g. =0.927418598 pounds, so filled, footballs are not a plausible option.
mass (unfilled): .90625 pounds, ratio: about 30inches cubed per pound. More plausible?
Basketball:
Much easier. :)
Mass (filled): 1.25 lb.
Mass (unfilled): 1.23 lb.
Volume filled: 455.9 inches cubed
Volume unfilled: 69.2522 inches squared (area of a cross section of it) *.5 (i really want a better measurement. X.x) = 34.626 inches cubed.
ratio filled: 364.2 inches cubed per lb
ratio unfilled: 28.15 inches cuber per lb
No go.
Frisbee (because I like frisbees :D):
given a 30mm frisbee:
Volume: 29.67 inches cubed
Mass: 0.385808959 pounds
ratio: 76.9 inches cubed per pound. <-Pretty darn close! :yikes: that'd be scary. I will work on more of these and post as I find.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

More options:
Tennis ball:
Volume: 5.9641 inches cubed
Mass: .125 lb
ratio: 47.7128 inches cubed per pound (16.7 off, viable option)
Golf Ball (I know it sounds ridiculous, but someone said that, so I'll do that math):
Volume: 2.4827 inches cubed
Mass: 0.10125 lb
ratio: 24.52049 inches cubed per lb.
I'm sort of out of ideas initially....

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

Now that I think about it, we could use the ratios I just found to make possible heights for the pallets, then decide the most plausible height rather than just guessing. Then we make educated guesses.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

Upon brief examination, I'd guess it to be tennis balls.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

The problem is, dean could be talking about any object as a "pallet". It could be shipping pallets, it could be flats of strawberries. What he's calling a "pallet" could be anything.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

I really enjoyed looking at you guys take on this crazy endevor! I feel like hockey pucks should be checked (im on my phone right now or i would do it) Hockey pucks are nice, small and heavy.

Re: Coopertition award hint?
 

Chris, while I agree that this excersize is founded on absolutely no real information and therefore means absolutely nothing, its fun to do bc who knows, we may get lucky and guess the competition. Personally, I dont do this for any benefit to my team, just for the fun of having a puzzle to keep my mind fresh. And to sean, dangit! I knew I forgot one. Id look it up too but im on my phone as well. Lol.