Official Rebound Rumble Thread
 

Sooo, what does everyone think!? ::rtm::

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Ideas and designs have already came to mind... I need to write these things down!

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Is the Robot section of the manual not open

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Anyone know where I can find the game animation? I'm retired but curious, and my computer whacked out in the middle of kickoff :(

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They are using similar platforms from FTC 2010 "Get Over It!"

This is going to be intense...:D

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Quote from @FRC Designs

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I expect to see a lot of slam dunking.

Also,

is very interesting.

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I am a member of Diamond Bullet Studios. For anyone looking for our website, it went live right after the animation and is not yet searchable. The link is dbsgames.net

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The game itself sounds incredibly interesting, but I am having doubts about scoring.

Comparing this game to Aim High, precision and accuracy must be increased significantly in order to score. I am no sports prodigy, but humans shooting a basketball is not the easiest thing to do. I am also no prediction expert, but just some immediate thoughts.

I am also feeling a low Center-of-Mass Swerve chassis may be efficient; Maneuverability and robustness to prevent opponents from interfering when not you are not touching the semicircle.

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Does anyone have a manual hosted? Our Robot section of the manual isn't opening

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2006+2001... gogogo... :)

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Here it is!!: http://youtu.be/nOXsdhZZSdM

Honestly, I'm a little afraid. I was surprised to see how simple the elements were this year. I was a little tripped up on all the past game elements they were tossing around to tease us!

There's the element of the bridges that share the challenge from the last FTC challenge, but I'm awfully disappointed to see that there weren't any actual FLL or FTC elements that would challenge the game this year like last year in Logomotion. Yes, minibots were a hassle, but they were table turners, and the most exciting element of the ENTIRE match!

Best of luck, teams!

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I LOVE it.

1) The Manual is clean, precise, and relatively easy. Some of the definitions are a little hard to find, and there are a few typos, but I can live with that until Update #1 fixes the typos. The "Find" feature will be very useful for a week or so...

2) Scoring is simple, cooperation is encouraged, and the safe zones are obvious (well... mostly--the key could be a little tricky to see in the lights).

3) The KOP Checklist indicates 3 game pieces per KOP--AM is selling them for $7 a pop, and they're in FIRST Choice.

4) Lots o' motors, including VEX motors. And the Van Door Motor returns (awesome motor for low-speed applications, if you were wondering).

5) The scoring seems to be pretty well balanced between the bridges and the hoops.

6) It's a combination of Aim High (2006), Breakaway (2010), and Diabolical Dynamics (2001): The shooting of Aim High, the possession rules of Breakaway (with 3 instead of 1 in possession/control), and the balancing/teamwork of Diabolical Dynamics, which was the best part of that whole game.

I think it'll be a really good year. Now, to build a robot...

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my likes:

1. motor galore. finally, teams have a use for those old motors in the dusty totebins from years past... heck, you can even go junkyard diving for motors!

2. electrical solenoids- teams get to use 10W solenoids... I wonder if one could use those to shift supershifters?

the rest I can't say until a few weeks into build season once prototype videos start popping up... the field looks a bit tricky to build...

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Relaxed bumper rules ...

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you still have to match them to alliance color :(

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I know! I thought that the minibots were fun and it was a really good way for the FRC teams to team up or learn a little about FTC Teams. I was hoping they were going to make us build a FLL Minibot... But no.

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so happy to minibots go bye bye...

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Okay so I'm a member of 2171 and we've been picking through the rules and a question popped up. Hypothetical: If a robot has a six wheel drive system (center wheels lower then other four) could we have a either pneumatic or driven rod system on one or both sides that lower and contact the floor to steady the robot? This would be helpful to know for the end of the game when you have to balance on the platform seeing as how a six wheel system without stabilizers would be a teeter totter on a teeter totter. Any input would be helpful.

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I wonder if we could program the gyroscope to auto balance the robot.

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Davidthefat was thinking of using a weight balancing mechanism where the battery and some essential hardware is built on a platform where it is actuated by a window motor. So the weight of the robot can be shifted anywhere from the back to the front of the robot.

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I like the game, it's simple, yet engaging, and will likely be visually pleasing to spectate. I, for one, will miss the delay at the end of the game for the score to be confirmed, it adds suspense and makes everything much more intense. I'm sad to see minibots go, too, but the balancing aspect looks like a good opportunity for lots of points.

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Question: I searched the manual and I can't tell how many balls are available total. There are two on the "Coopertition platform" and up to two in each robot, but are there any in the corrals at the start of the game?

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[G05] says each bridge gets 2 basketballs. Plus 2 per robot, that's 18 total. No mention of any others, so I wouldn't expect there to be any others.

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where do you get the cut list for the field pieces

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No Ranking Points!

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I honestly think that this game is pretty awesome (wanted a basketball game so bad) The game is hype, easy to understand, and presents a challenge. I agree it's break away and aim high but with a twist. Rebound Rumble I see alot of people going back to reference other games. Excited to see manipulators and how people will score.

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The game seems really fun this year. The team is really focused and hard at work this year!

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I dont like the game so much, but the stuff they're allowing this year will be interesting. Kinect, something like 22 motors on the robot. Should make the build season occipied to last minute for engineering and programming :deadhorse:

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Did anyone else notice that it should be possible, with the 14" past the frame perimeter rule and the height limit of 80", to score on the second row without even having the ball in the air? same goes for the first row.

So, unless you can make more than 2/3 accuracy with the top row, you will actually score more going for the middle row.

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Will tossing of the game pieces be allowed like last year, or will they limit it to the specified inbounding areas? The manual says This doesn't disallow it, and I can't find any wording in the manual that says no, but there's also nothing specifically saying it is allowed. Am I being dumb, and what's the answer to this?

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so they're allowing a hybrid autonomous mode this year with the kinect. they also stated that you are allowed to use the kinect during tele-op. how would teams implement this? that a driver was continuously driving the robot using the kinect or that the "arm" of the robot was controlled by a kinect driver?

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I believe this answers your question...

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If they can throw balls, I bet a lot of teams will be looking for basketball players! I wonder how many can make ~57' throws? In any case, if they can toss, I think that we will see many more scores by the human players than last year!

And, as always, the ability to pick up off of the ground will be important, for the balls that miss.

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Interesting that you bring that up. I double checked the math, if you have the robot right up against the fender with the full 14 in extension, at one point the hoop's inner diameter begins only 3/4 of an inch away. While that's not right up against it, it's close enough that we can just roll or bump it in.

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The Key has that 2005 Danger Zone element to it. No matter who initiates the contact the defensive bot get the foul. Teams need to think carefully about defending that area, if at all.

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If you look at the field and take how far the robot can reach out, it is impossible to dunk the ball.

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which hoop?

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I agree its very important that teams realize this when playing defense for sure. I dont like this anything all the time foul thing.

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It's gonna bite some teams in the butt til they learn how to measure the proper distance to gauge where they should or shouldn't play defense. Very much like last year too.

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Not necessarily dunking, scoring from as close a range as possible. Lofting the ball in such a trajectory as to "throw" it into the hoop is significantly more difficult than trying to drop it into the hoop. The limit on amount of balls carried puts a premium on accuracy and precision, so any strategy that increases the risk of missing a basket has to carry a great deal of benefit to make it worthwhile.

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It says something about how cool FRC is that even after being "out of the game" for two years now, I am still excited about kickoff. This is a very cool game, and while I won't get to play/coach/mentor, I'm still looking forward to volunteering.

Flipping through the rules I see a few things that immediately catch my attention (other than the new look, which is nice).

R08.D Class I lasers are allowed. I don't know, exactly, why that makes me happy, but it does. Robots are cool. Lasers are cool. Robots with lasers? Cool^2

R08.B Speakers and such are allowed so long as they don't generate sound at a level to be a distraction.

R01 An improved definition of what a "robot" actually is. Not a big deal unless you are a veteran FRC rules geek, but I like it.


Section 4.1.6: The clearest, most sensible (and most flexible) bumper design rules yet. The tech inspector in me says "Thank You!"

R48.H: Two VEX motors. While the wider range of all motors (and solenoids!) is the big message, I see a positive symbolic message in the fact that VEX motors are specifically allowed. (Actually the rules needs a minor edit to add the R48 bit)

R75 Gets it right on requiring teams to check and calibrate the pressure release valves for the pneumatics...

I especially like the new layout, including the highlighted comments. I think FIRST has made some very positive steps with what was already a pretty comprehensive and well-thought out set of rules.

Jason

Re: Official Rebound Rumble Thread
 

With the 14 inch extension, which hoop could you drop a ball into?

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The highest hoop would be the level 2; the level 3 hoop is at 98" and the robot maxes at 84"

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The fender is 38-3/4 in deep. Add on 3 in of bumpers in the way. The hoops have an ID of 18 in. The hoops are 6 in away from the backboard, and the backboard is 1/2 in thick. Factor in a 14 in reach and you get:

38-3/4 + 3 - 18 - 6 - 1/2 - 14 = 3-1/4 in gap between the rim and the edge of the fender.

This is reasonably close enough to drop ball into the hoop, as long as the robot is high enough to reach the hoop.

Re: Official Rebound Rumble Thread
 

For "Dunking":

I did the math with a current team member. What we figured out about the 2 point hoops:
-From the front of the fender to edge of the hoop is 14.75 inches
-From the side of the fender to the hoop is 14.625 inches
-From the corner of the fender to the hoop is 24 inches
-From the center of the front of the fender to the hoop is 27.25 inches (this is the worst case scenario)

Add in the 14 inch extension and you are pretty close to the basket. A bump (or even a ramp a foot or so up) would be enough to get it into the basket from pretty much anywhere.

Fun fact: even with the 14'' extension, you still can't touch the hoops.

Re: Official Rebound Rumble Thread
 

can the opposing robots go into your own lane to collect basketballs and how many in-bounders are able to return the basketballs.

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Robots can go into opposing alliance lanes, but you risk penalty by doing so. (g28 I think)

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what about the in-bounders how many are there.

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I have found no rule against it, other than making sure what contacts the floor complies with <R06>
Yes, of course you can. You might find it easier to use the acceleration sensor though. The gyro is for measuring rotational movement.
This is probably the biggest Ah-Ha! in the game, week one there will be tons of these Fouls being called, until teams learn that the Zone is big and defense takes the hit.

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Does all of the Robot have to be supported on the Bridge for it to count as "balanced?" In the Arena pdf, it says "A Bridge will count as Balanced if it is within 5° of horizontal," nothing else. However, in [G41] of the Game pdf, it says It says "fully supported by the Coopertition bridge," but "fully supported," or anything like it, is not mentioned anywhere else in the manual. Could we support the weight on the floor, as well as the Bridge, as long as it's <5 degrees?

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If partly supported by the floor, does that sound like "fully supported by the bridge" to you?

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Thank you for this info. i will make sure to bring it up with my team.

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There's always these every year. Last year teams did not think playing madcap defense in the opponents scoring zone would prove so costly but I witnessed firsthand a team lose a regional over a red card during a match they easily won.
Check yourself before you wreck yourself, kids. Penalties still matter just as much as points do.

Re: Official Rebound Rumble Thread
 

how many mechanisms can you have at a time on your robot.

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Thank you for the kind response. It's mentioned in the game section concerning the Coopertition bridge, not any bridge at all, and only in that section, while "balanced" is defined only as being 5 degrees or less from the horizontal. There's certainly reason for doubt.

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However many you can fit without the rules and size constraints. Only one can extend the 14'' at any given time, all others must stay in standard limits.

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Im interested to see how many fouls there are also kc is a week one so we will see. This whole ramp thing has been overlooked also and is huge in elim and qual especially the coop, may teams I feel are going to over look it unfortunately.

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You forgot the Bumpers. The maximum 14" extension is from your Frame Perimeter, which is inside the Bumpers. Subtract 3-1/4 inches (2-1/2" noodle, 3/4" plywood) from your calculations, and you'll be even farther away from touching a hoop.

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Where is the Definitions section? Doesn't appear posted yet. Could prove useful.

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Are we allowed to use outside libraries for our code? We were thinking of using OpenCV, but [R18] says "Robot elements designed or created before the Kickoff presentation, including software, are not
permitted."

Now later in [R18], it says, after describing another team making robot code, that This doesn't specifically mention outside libraries, but it seems implied. I'd like to get some confirmation on whether they're allowed, though.

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My question to the GDC is why is there not a "3 point line" bonus beyond the key?

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It should be if you can hit from the opposite side of the field you get 5 points.

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I like the game quite a bit. However I do find the Hoop setup rather silly looking.

And I'll echo everyone's comments on how AWESOME the game manual looks and breathes. Very very very well done by the GDC, and probably the best thing about this year so far.

At our mentor meeting, 174 thought about challenging Syracuse to a little 1 on 1. haha.

In the same way, I expect to see the return of Zip-Tie Skirts on every robot chassis. Because even if your robot is OVER your Key, per [G28] only if a robot is IN CONTACT with the Key will it be a foul. Having those Zip-Tie Skirts will ensure that refs can accurately foul and give you those 3 points.

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Anyone know the angle of the bridges?

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This game has the best manual I have seen in years, probably ever. It really does not take that long to read through most of the manual (the important sections total to only 50 pages or so) and the new viewing methods such as the smart phone app make it so much easier to pull up at any time.

Getting across the field is going to be hard I believe; a lot harder than my initial impression. I thought at first that the bridges would be a nice quick way across, but after watching the field walkthrough videos on the FIRST youtube page I think the bridge is going to be more difficult to cross than it looks (for all the students out there I encourage you to run the numbers based on the test that FIRST gives for making sure your bridge behaves properly. With some torque calculations you can find it is not a trivial weight required to lower the bridge down to get on it). Add the bump that is rather large and teams with a poor drivetrain really have no shot at getting more scoring elements.

Also, was anyone else less than impressed by the option of using Kinect to drive? I think the cool factor of it is through the roof, but from a usefulness perspective I don't see how it provides any benefit beyond regular autonomous.

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It seems like the GDC got lazy and copied 2006.

I like that they twisted it and made the goal(s) parallel to the floor, it adds complexity to the game 2006 didn't really have.

I don't like that there is really only one way to score(yes there are the bridges but its an end game bonus type thing so im not counting it.) I'd like some variety in the game so we can see some new stuff. This is 2 years in a row now that they have recycled a previous game.

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FRC has similar (not recycled) games often.

Toroid Terror was copied by rack n roll omg!!!!eleven1

There are key differences. Aim High and Lunacy, when compared to RR, are mostly different due to the amount of balls you can carry, and removing this element (mostly) from the robot makes a difference in design.

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There is nothing new under the sun. Everything takes inspiration from something. I have no problem with what the GDC came up with,

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If you really think the 2012 game is the same as 2006, why not try building a copy of your 2006 robot? Perhaps your Aim High robot's shooter wasn't accurate enough to hit a basketball goal?

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Yes I understand that games have similarities(I have been around this competition for few years) but this is straight up Aim High, they just moved the ramp/platforms to the center and made you balance it and turned the goal 90 degrees and took away 82 balls. There was very little creativity in this game and that is what I dislike about it. I might just be "upset" because I am one of the very few who thought aim high was boring.

That being said I do feel that this game will be better than Aim High, shooting a ball into a basketball hoop is going to take finesse, and this game is going to take alot of game strategy.

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I doubt many aim high robots could clear the bump in the middle of this years field :D

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I think that ramp to the platform for Aim High was steeper.

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I don't know of a specific angle, but in the field demo video they stated that it will be about 1' off the floor when balanced, then 2' off of the floor when up. You can always get an aprox. angle from the measurements.

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Regarding the recycling of game challenges... there's lots of room for different views and perspectives here. I can't count the numbers of times that I've thought about revisiting a game or a specific element of a game or adding a different twist to a game. It's all good. There's a lot of fun to be had in this 2012 game challenge. On lots of levels.

Signed,

Jane - a person who is so happy to see the bridge and misses the minibot :D

P.S. Great name for the game, GDC! As always...

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According to some trig I just did, it will be 9.14811439598141 degrees when its down. For some reason, this doesn't seem right but it may well be!

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Ehh, they couldn't figure out how to score that automatically within 5 seconds of the final buzzer. :rolleyes:

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Only when this years teeter-totter is facing you ;)

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What a great game. I'm excited, and not faking that. Going to have a couple hands available for the 2 teams in Ypsi here.

Key note: Bots can only carry 3 balls at a time... so no need for extra large 2006 cylinders.

Side note: loved the jazz in the background of the game video. :cool:

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I am curious to see what everyone thinks of the changes to the seeding structure this year i.e.:
1st order sort
Qualification Score
2nd order sort
Cumulative sum of Hybrid Hoop points
3rd order sort
Cumulative sum of Bridge points
4th order sort
Cumulative sum of Teleop Hoop points
5th order sort
Random sorting by the FMS

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I am in favor of the emphasis on completing the autonomous mode challenge. It doesn't hurt that balls scored in autonomous get 3 extra points compared to their tele-op value.

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This has all the nuances of a great game. It is incredibly simple and should be easy to watch, yet contains enough subtle depth to excite any team's strategists, designers, and builders. The manual is great. I'm not sure whether it is or not, but the manual seems much shorter than last year's. The document is now fully searchable too!

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I like the emphasis on Coopertition.

Taken together, [G41]
If a Robot from each Alliance is balanced on the Coopertition Bridge when the final score for a Qualification Match is assessed per Rule [G37], each Alliance earns 2 Coopertition Points. If the Coopertition Bridge is not balanced, but a Robot from each Alliance is fully supported by the Coopertition Bridge, each Alliance will earn 1 Coopertition Point.

and the fourth bullet under 5.3.3 Qualification Score (QS)
Additional Qualification Points will be awarded to each team on an Alliance equal to any Coopertition Points earned.

make it a big deal to get two robots from opposing alliances onto the center bridge at the end of a Qualifying Match.

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I love this change because it makes it so that the tie breakers are under your control! As opposed to a "ranking score" as a tie breaker in past years which made your ranking dependent on other alliances performance; this is all stuff that is (mostly) under your control. However, I can see the case where a team doesn't have as many opponents that can balance on a ramp with them and this could negatively affect the "Coopertition Scores" of a team based on the capability of the opponents. But I like that win/loss is seemingly the biggest determinant under this system, and then tie breakers are under your control!

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At the Minnesota FIRST kickoff we came up with the question of is the Kinect hybrid mode really worth it when you it might just be easier to program an autonomous mode on the robot since only one team per alliance can use the hybrid mode with the Kinect per alliance?

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I agree there doesn't seem to be a reason to do the connect, other than to have a cool demo at community events where you can have random people drive your robot.

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This seems to be a far far better use of the Co-opertition award. Last year I was at events that didn't even want to do the stupid thing. In fact there was only a handful of teams that even took the award seriously. This year if you can manage to pull of Co-opertition you deserve to reap the benefits of your accomplishments.

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The rules are simple, scoring will be much faster, the manual is shorter, etc. The GDC has done well here.

The Field Tour videos on their YouTube account are must-watch videos. The first in the series is here. They should answer many questions about the game in an accessible way. Measurements can be found in the video for some parts. You should watch these videos.

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The only thing I don't like is that you have to put the balls in your opponent's possession in order to score.

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Any teams figure out how to connect the Kinect sensor to the cRio yet?

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I'm sure some teams already have a working platform ;)

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Gah, thanks. The team brainstorming session completely disregarded bumpers. At least we have the fender dimension distances on-hand though, so we can get a general idea of how positioning helps. And still, the bumpers don't add too much distance, a bit more force to any dunk-like bumping should still work just fine. Though that does make the worst-case a bit more daunting...

Interesting thing with The Tournament section: even though the middle balance provides coopertition points, in terms of seeding, the tie-breaker after qualification points isn't balance points, but hybrid score. Balance points come after that. So while the center balance has a large impact on seeding, the other platforms have less influence than hybrid...

Sorry about not being more current, I haven't had a chance to view this thread since 3:30ish

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lol youtube

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I think it'll be a good year for the 10" mechanum, and harder rollers/ wheels are pretty much a necessity. the bumps are 4" high, a rather conspicuous height if u ask me... normally we use 8" mechanum with soft rollers, but this year we might have to use a multi-wheel or larger wheels.
just my two cents worth. don't even know what we'll use...

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who started already? we don't start planning things out until Monday?

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We already have our drive half finished, and essentially finished design, and starting to order parts for robot #2.

I'm as surprised by this as most people are. :|

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Is there a like button?

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holy hell, what, are u guys those stereotypical geniuses who never leave there basements 'cept for FIRST? and the other half pro machinists?! we barely have a good understanding of the game

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No, but we joked around during the summer about a basketball game. We designed how it could work, what drives to use, entirely hypothetical stuff.

When we watched the video, we were as shocked as ever! We made some small adjustments to fit the game, and our design was done. Ended last 30 minutes of the meeting by starting the drivetrain, and ordering parts.

I swear I'm going to wake up any moment in bed, it being 5:00 AM, Sunday morning, and this was all a dream.

*For the record, we didn't just magically devise stuff for basketball-like games over the summer. We did a variety of sports, from tennis to baseball, and even water polo (You never know!). It just so happened that during that time we agreed a basketball-like game would play like Aim High, and built off of that.*