Deciding which bridge to go for
 

Here is a fun question. In the endgame, you have a choice of two bridges to head for: your own, and the coopertition bridge. Which one should be your priority? How does the number of robots left operating on each side effect your decision? Does the point spread effect your decision? How about the relative rankings of the teams?

At our first glance, it appears that the first priority should always be to go for the cooperition bridge, but we haven't done an in-depth look yet. (One definite exception would be if there are no operating robots left on the other side of the field.)

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

Go for the one that makes you win.

You get 2 QS points for winning.
0 for losing.

If a robot from each alliance is on the cooperation bridge, you get an additional 2 QS points.

I'd focus more on ensuring that you will win the match.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

But the other side of the argument is that if you and a team on the other alliance feel like you have a good chance to get the coopertition bonus, you get 2 points for that and 0 points for not getting it, regardless of whether or not you win. That's just as important...

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

I would say that in Qualification matches, prioritize the Coopertition bridge first. The Qualifying points are more important than the match points. Even if it isn't balanced, each alliance gets 1 Qualifying point. (G40)

However, while three robots on an alliance's bridge is worth the same amount as only two robots on the same bridge in Qualifiers, it is worth TWICE as much in Eliminations. There are no extra points awarded for the Coopertition bridge in Eliminations, I would say always try to go for your alliance bridge. (G41)

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

So, a basically guaranteed 2 points if you can get on your own bridge, or possibly 2 points if you manage to balance with an opposing robot, with no communication.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

How would that be a guaranteed 2 points for getting on your own bridge? You could still lose the match. Plus, you could win the match AND get the coopertition bonus; that's 4 points.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

There is a definite need for collusion between opposing alliances in qualifying matches. No one will want to pass up the extra 2 CP.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

Well, the bonus you get for just having 2 of your robots on your bridge is 20 points, which is a HUGE point bonus. Depending on how many balls your opponents have scored, (20 points is anywhere from 7 to 20 goals...) it can almost be a guaranteed win.

Granted, getting your 3rd robot to go for the coopertition bonus isn't a bad idea.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

But if a robot on your alliance and a robot on the opposing alliance can both go up on the bridges, then choosing to go for the coopertition bonus instead of independently scoring would mean 10 poinrs less for each alliance. This means it would be a wash in terms of point, net point differential change of 0. But both alliances stand to gain in doing this by taking the coopertition bonus.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

Completely agree, this will be huge in competition.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

1 Robot on your bridge = 10 Points
2 Robots on your bridge = 20 Points
3 Robots on your bridge = 20 Points (For Qual. matches)

Having 2 go up is best, then get your 3rd one to go for the coopertition.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

Completely true, but definitely go for 3 on your alliance bridge during Eliminations.

In Elims:
1 Robot on your bridge = 10 Points
2 Robots on your bridge = 20 Points
3 Robots on your bridge = 40 Points

So 3 robots on your alliance's bridge would equal TWICE as much as 2 during Elimination matches, where Qualifying points from the Coopertition bridge would no longer matter.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

Yup. Of course on the other hand, trying to get all 3 on your bridge might be risky. Would hate to see one of them push the other 2 off or something...

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

I disagree.

Case 1. Your suggestion:

Other alliance: 2 robots on their bridge. 20 points.
Our alliance: 2 robots on our bridge. 20 points.
No coopertition bonus.


Case 2. My suggestion:

Other alliance: 1 robot on their bridge, one on coopertition bridge. 10 points.
Our allaince: 1 robot on our bridge, one on coopertition bridge. 10 points.
2 Coopertition bonus points.

Either way it wouldn't affect the match outcome (win/loss), but ALL teams involved benefit from a coopertition bonus. This result is repeatable and consistent in all scenarios. Since the end all be all for ranking is the qualification score, Case 2 always comes out on top by this numerical analysis.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

I'm starting to think that with the Coopertition bridge, maybe we should try and organize/create a standardized system of some sorts to communicate across the field on whether or not to go for the Coopertition bridge...it could probably wait until after Stop Build Day(pains me to say that and not ship day:eek: ), but just something to keep in mind

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

I think we have a misunderstanding...

In your scenario #2 there are 3 robots not on a bridge.

I am saying that you have 2 of your 3 alliance robots go for YOUR bridge to get 20 points. Then make your 3rd one go for the coopertition.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

What percentage of robots will have the ability to climb on a bridge? As noted elsewhere, the bridges will not stay tilted for access by themselves. This means if you intend to get onto a bridge, your robot has to be designed for it. It will take good choreography to depend on an alliance partner already on a bridge to allow other alliance robots to join them there.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

Getting onto a bridge is relatively easy if you have a frame with an angled bottom, much like tanks have. Then your robot can just drive at the bridge and it'll be pushed down as you go over it.

@Bill_B: Say the Red alliance gets to the coopertition bridge first. They get on, then drive to the other side to allow the Blue robot on. Red then backs up to balance the bridge while Blue is relatively motionless.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

I was thinking along these same lines, maybe something using a piece of tri-colored LED strip light. These could be wrapped around a post to be visible in all directions. The strip could be:
off: no meaning
blinking red: heading for red ramp
blinking green: heading for coopertition ramp
blinking blue: heading for blue ramp

Sometime during the match, the drivers would trigger the appropriate light to signal their intentions. The team colored lights are more for the benefit of intrateam communication. If there are green blinking lights on opposite sides of the field, both alliances will know they are going for a coopertition score, and which robots will be trying it.

When two robots approach a ramp, the first one drives up on, and drives forward to tip the ramp to the second robot, then cuts power to the wheels so it can be pushed. The second robot pushes the first robot up the ramp until it becomes balanced. This bit of "ramp etiquette" establishes which robot controls the balancing, so the two robots on the ramp don't end up fighting each other.

Thoughts?

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

I was thinking more of something along the lines of a hand signal, haha, might be hard to get the attention of the other alliance. Or, conversely, it could be something as simple as, "Have your robot go back and forth twice in front of the Coopertition Bridge". Something simple for teams to do, even if there robot is as simple as just kitframe on wheels and bumpers.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

I'm not certain, but I don't think that you can just drive at the bridge. When there is no external force on the bridge, the bridge remains parallel to the ground, meaning that you have to have some way of pushing it down, or cooperatively have an alliance member who can lift it up, as seen in the game animation.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

Spot on here. The bridge is roughly 1 foot high while level (note that that is above the bumper zone!) and returns to level anytime nothing is on it. If you watch the videos put out on the FIRST youtube channel they give a test as to where to place weight at a specific distance to get it to tip. Based on this you can calculate with some torque equations roughly how much force you need to tip the bridge down in front of your robot.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

Good idea. Driving up to the bridge and spinning in place would be pretty hard to miss. The light signal would give a little bit more advance warning. Maybe the LEDs for those who want the more "elegant" communication and have the ability to implement it, and the "bridge dance" for those who don't. Kind of like honeybees communicating in a hive by their waggle dancing.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

I'm not sure at exactly what point on the bridge, but calculations done by some of our team indicated it required a little under 6.5 lbs of force to tilt it.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

This ramp etiquette will be key. Trying to communicate across the field about who is balancing will be difficult. Knowing that robot 1 won't interfere with robot 2 during balancing process, will be key to a successful balance

The better balancer should always be robot 2. Arranging this before the match will be critical. The timing that when robot 1 should get on the ramp, what happens when a robot breaks down and what hand signals/lights/flags mean what are the kind of things that need to be arranged before hand. I am just thinking that there needs to be a signal that indicates that one of the participating robot is unable to perform or aborting the cooperation balance.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

LED message signs?

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

From a pure game theory perspective, gaining two qualification points via coopertition is less desirable than gaining two qualification points via winning a match. Winning a match provides two qualificaiton points to your team, and four QPs to other teams (two for each of your alliance partners). Balancing two robots grants your team two QPs, and ten to other teams (two partners and three opponents). Winning a match provides a better chance at seeding high than the coopertition ramp.

Obviously they are not mutually exclusive outcomes.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

This question is pretty easy to answer if you know you're going to win every qualification match you play by 10+ points anyways.

:D

I mean, it's first week. Isn't everyone thinking this way?

Or is it just me...

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

Unless you wanted to attempt 3 robot balancing before the elimination matches.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

Some might try it to show off for the scouts.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

Although it is not as strategically better to go for coopertition points as opposed to winning a match, it certainly is a lot more ensuring to go for coopertition. As long as one robot on the field can manipulate the bridge, it is very possible to get coopertition. The only time I can't imagine robots wanting to go for coopertition is if both alliances know its going to be a close match. Quite a few matches though are in fact a 1 sided battle, so coopertition benefits both the stronger and the weaker alliance.


Edit: Also have a quick question about choosing. If the other alliance came up to you and asked you to do it. What would you do?

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

What if there are 3 robots balanced the co-op bridge?

I know it's a long shot of this happening, but possible.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

more food for thought:

in elims, going for 3 may or may not be the best option... if you know you can get 3 on and you can do it consistently and reliably, then go for it. If you need 40 to win and 20 won't do it, then do it. otherwise, settle for 2, since 3 bots unbalanced is a big, fat 0.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

same thing as 2 on the bridge.

pointless.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

The third robot should balance on it's alliance bridge for an additional 10 points in any and all cases.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

I see three basic scenarios about where to balance at the end of the game.

Scenario 1) If I'm losing, and balancing on my alliance's bridge will not be enough points to win the match, then I will definitely attempt to balance on the coopertition bridge.

Scenario 2) If I'm winning, then I will definitely attempt to balance on the coopertition bridge because it will net me a total of 4 Qualifying Points out of the match, 2 more points than a losing alliance that did balance it or a winning alliance that did not balance it.

Scenario 3) The tricky scenario IMO is when I am losing, but by balancing on my own alliance bridge instead of balancing on the coopertition bridge I would win. At that point, I can only receive 2 Qualification Points either way. However, I can guarantee that I will get the points if I go to my alliance bridge and balance. There is no guarantee that the other alliance will join me on the coopertition bridge in this scenario. Would it make sense for them to do it, as suggested in the scenario 2? Yes. But that doesn't mean it will happen. For that reason, I would balance on my alliance's bridge in this situation before going to the coopertition bridge.

Granted, all of these scenarios do not take into consideration where I stand in relation to the robots I am playing against in the standings, but this is what makes sense to me for question "What bridge should I go for?".

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

Unless you want to prove you're capable of balancing three robots on a bridge and still get coopertition points.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

But when will you convince your alliance to go for this? The third could potentially unbalance the bridge and get you 0 instead of 20.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

This was in reference to having three teams on the coopertition bridge. I'm not endorsing the idea directly nor am I saying that it's a flawless plan. I'm simply identifying out that call the concept "pointless" is not accurate.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

In the case of a surrogate match, would it also not make sense to NOT go for the bridge? This case is ambiguous. You don't earn QPs during a surrogate match, but can you earn CPs? Do you get the QPs associated with said CPs?

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

In my opinion, it depends on the score spread. If the score is close enough that the results are heavily dependent on the end game, I would have two teams on the colored bridge and one team trying to score baskets in the last 30 seconds. Go for the win. If the score is far enough apart that it is an almost guaranteed win or a guaranteed lose, I would go to the co-opertition bridge.

Re: Deciding which bridge to go for
 

5.5.3 says, "Additional Qualification Points will be awarded to each team on an Alliance equal to any Coopertition Points earned."

Then 5.3.5 says, "A Surrogate receives zero Qualification Points."

(emphasis mine)

Since the CP's are converted to QP's, so to speak, I would think that a surrogate would receive no QP's from either source - not from winning, and not from balancing.

The same would apply to any team that is DQ'd. So, don't get red cards! And especially, don't forget to send at least one player to the Alliance Station even if your Robot will not be competing.