Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

I wanted to create this thread as the place to discuss all the different motor possibilities for 2012 including the new motors in the kit of parts, and the plethora of motors available to us through the junkyards participating in the auto recycler network. Near us, the local Pick Your Part participates. That would be rather interesting if we could go get whatever motor from whatever car.

What make and model of car has the most powerful motor in its doors, seats, wipers, and windows?

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Does anyone know if there is a link to an online PDF of the ARA PDV ?

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Wiper motors and window motors will not be as strong as seat and door motors.

The vex motors and throttle motors are, uh, interesting? I'm most excited about the PG71. Hopefully it will be more reliable than the banebots 775/planetary. Also, the pg71 planetary can be bought separately, as can the adapter plate for 500 sized motors and the 1/2 inch shaft adapter.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

The PG71 and the RS775 are not even in the same league. The 775 is 271 watts max, and the PG71 is 21 watts max.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

That is with the gearbox, without it is 180 W, as a reference the 775 is about 100w more! not 250...Still a big deference between a motor of the exact same size/look!

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Specs on the PG75 from AM
Performance Specs:
Voltage: 12 volt DC
No Load RPM: 84 rpm

No Load Current: 1.3 amps

Maximum Power: 130 Watts

Stall Torque: 6.8 ft-lb (at 11.6 volts)

Stall Current: 11.3 amps (at 11.6 volts)

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Could you please post a link to your source for this data. Thank you.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Read posts 4, 5, 7, and 8 of this thread:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=99390

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

These numbers, posted by me on the AM website two days ago, are not correct. They have been updated to much more realistic, and larger numbers. We at AndyMark are changing these numbers a bit after some further testing this weekend. Sorry about this change. Please check our PG71 web page for any further updated information.

Here is more to the story.

When I was updating the web page for this motor on Friday, getting it ready for Saturday's kickoff, I saw that the stall torque was listed at 11 amps. This is information we got from the manufacturer. So, I called Mark, who was out at Manchester for kickoff to see what was up with this. He created and interpreted the performance numbers a few weeks ago, and listed the stall torque at 11 amps. We both thought about this some more and agreed that was waaaaay too low. He got home today and did a bench test that repeatedly performed at these numbers below. This test was ran with a 12.8 volt battery providing voltage directly to the motor. The stall torque is 23 ft-lbf, and the max current reading is 28.6 amps. We believe this translates to approximately 350 watts as the max power for the motor.

Tested at 12.8 volts
23 ft-lbf max torque at stall
28.6 amps pulled at stall
Estimated 350 watts of power

Here is Mark's setup. He had a force gauge measuring an arm's pull at exactly 1 foot away from the motor. The force gauge showed 23 lbs of force and the amp meter showed 28.6 amps. It was a simple setup, and we ran it about 10 times. The numbers were consistent. These numbers make much better sense to me compared to the "11 amp stall torque" numbers I posted on Saturday.

Again, sorry for these erroneous numbers yesterday, and please check out the PG71 website for future updates.

Sincerely,
Andy Baker

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

The numbers don't seem to add up. Using the 84 rpm free speed from the AM web site:

At 12 volts:

stall torque = (12/12.8)*23 = 21.56 ft-lbf

Assuming max output power occurs at half stall torque and half free speed:

half stall torque = 21.56/2 = 10.78 ft-lbf

half free speed = 84/2 = 42 rpm

max watts = 42*10.78*0.142 = 64.3 watts

At 12.8 volts:

free speed = (12.8/12)*84 = 89.6 rpm

Assuming max output power occurs at half stall torque and half free speed:

half free speed = 89.6/2 = 44.8 rpm

half stall torque = 23/2 = 11.5 ft-lbf

max watts = 44.8*11.5*0.142 = 73.2 watts

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

here is the official FIRST data sheet, might it also be incorrect?
http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default...r%20Info_0.pdf

the am-9012 is the base motor and the am-9014 is the motor with the gearbox...

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Not according to the AndyMark web site.

What is your source for this information?

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

http://www.andymark.com/product-p/am-0914.htm
http://www.andymark.com/product-p/am-0912.htm

The PG71 gearmotor is AM-0914 (quoted on First's data sheet in the above link as having an 11.3 amp stall current)
The 9015 motor is AM-0912

It looks like the First document has the same misquoted figures for AM-0914

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

I should have been clearer. The point in contention is this: Timz3082 is claiming* that the motor portion of the PG71 (am-0914) is the same motor as the 9015 (am-0912). I was asking where he got that information.


* see post #5: "That is with the gearbox, without it is 180 W"

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Sorry, I was misinformed, upon further examination, the other motor is infact a different motor. The one without a gearbox is rs550 sized, the one on the gearmotor is rs775 sized, sorry about that, the person who inventoried our kit must have made a mistake.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Ahh, I see we are on the same page.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Does anyone know which motors are back-drivable and which motors are not?

Also are there any motor curves up yet? The page on the FIRST website does not have this.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

I don't know if I'm doing this right (actually, I'm pretty sure I am), but if you input 28.6 Amps at 12.8 Volts, that's equivalent to 366 watts of electrical power being put into the system.

350 watts of output power translates to >90% efficiency for a 12V motor, something that is ridiculously high.

Or, maybe I'm reading this wrong, and you're simply stating that it can pull about 350 watts of power, and not the output power... I'm confusing myself.

In the retest, was the torque due to the arms weight accounted for?

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Regarding the Automotive Recycler's Association motor deal, I found this press release: http://arav3.timberlakepublishing.co...p?Display=1476

My question is, can we simply buy and legally use any motor from a car rather than obtaining it through this route? If not,I think it's dumb that a piece of paper from a junkyard is the difference between a motor being legal and not.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

I can't believe we'd be allowed to use any motor at all. I'm looking forward to more info too. There has to be a reasonable limitation on what can be supplied.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

See notes embedded in red:

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

You can use this to do all your motor calculations if you want to.

It now supports the following 2012 motors:

CIM

FP0673
FP2719
FP9012
FP9015

RS395
RS540 (not legal for 2012 but included)
RS550
RS775-12
RS775-18

am-0912
am-0914

DensoL
DensoR
Denso AE235100-0160

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Motor curves are linked on this page. Currently, the PDF file is here, but the filename appears to be changing with each revision.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Ether- do the specs on that PDF look kosher to you? I trust your experience far more than FIRST spec sheets!

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Maybe someone can help me. The Fisher Price motor we have in the kit supplied this year is a 00968-9013. Is there any motor data for this motor available?

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

The only changes from the initial revision are as follows:

1) corrected typo in Line1. Was "am-9012". Now is "am-0912"

2) corrected typo in Line2. Was "am-9014". Now is "am-0914"

3) changed data in Line2. Was/Is: 18.28/69.07 1309.4/4416 75/84 1.2/1.2 11.3/28.6

The new data is misleading. The Stall Torque and Stall Current are reported at 12.8 volts (and this is not indicated in the chart).

To create motor curves, use (12/12.8)*4416 = 4140 oz-in stall, and (12/12.8)*28.6 = 26.8 amps

Also, the power at 12 volts should be 64.3 watts. See post#10 in this thread.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Actually, there are a lot of folks here on CD with far more FRC-specific experience. But I have checked FRC's 2012 chart against data I had from past years and the only major error I found so far was the am-0914 data in Line2, which has now been corrected*.

On an earlier thread, Richard indicated he would perform dyno tests on the kit motors and report the results this week. When that data is available, I will incorporate it into the motor calculator.


*edit: but see caveat in post 26 of this thread

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Does anyone know why the stall current for the left handed Denso motor is higher than the stall current for the right handed one? If they are just flipped versions of each other shouldn't they be the same?

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

A Team Update has just been issued which de-lists the FP2719 and adds the FP9013 as an acceptable motor for 2012.

I would assume that an update to the 2012 motor specs chart* would follow shortly.



* click on the link labeled "data on the motors" on this web page.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Driver side window motors are often built heavy-duty since the driver's window gets more use than the passenger window. They are not the same motors.

At least that's how I understand it.

Dr. Bob

Chairman's award is not about building a robot. Every team builds a robot.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

The PG71 IS an RS-775. It is significantly different from the one from Banebots, but my comparison was size (as in ability to be stalled momentarily without overheating) related.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Today I expect to receive several PG71 units for testing at my lab. (They were shipped on Monday.) We are working on the test set-up now. It may be tomorrow afternoon before we complete all tests, review the results, and are ready to post.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

It makes sense to me....we don't want people using the power window pump motor out of a 1950 lincoln, for example.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

That is what Al told me a year ago, it is a cost/benefit scenario, so they build the left versions to slightly higher quality.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

See attached. FIRST motor spec table and footnotes.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Team Update #2 (2012-01-13) has added FP-9012 to [R48] and kept FP-9013.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Yes, it would be a shame to damage a car like that :D

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Does anybody know the specs for the M7-RS775-18 banebot motor? The specs that FIRST gives are significantly different than the specs from BaneBots.

http://banebots.com/pc/MOTOR-BRUSH/M7-RS775-18

http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default...torInfo2.2.pdf

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

The 12 volt specs for both the 775-18 and the 775-12 are in the motor calculator located here.

The link you posted for the Banebots specs was for the 775-18 at 18 volts.

Here's the Banebots spec for the 775-18 at 12 volts:

http://banebots.com/docs/M7-RS775-18-AT12V.pdf

The FIRST specs are for the 775-18 at 12 volts

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Here is the FIRST file converted to an excel spreadsheet.

I did not make any changes to the data from the FIRST site.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

All,

I have updated the web page for the PG71 gearmotor (am-0914). It now has the actual test results performed by Richard Wallace's staff at Whirlpool in Benton Harbor. Many thanks to go Richard and his colleagues for this testing and service to the FIRST community.

Copying from this page, here are the Performance Specs: (updated Monday, Jan. 16th):

• Gearbox Reduction: 71:1
• Voltage: 12 volt DC
• No Load Free Speed: 75 rpm
• No Load Current: 0.6 amps
• Tested Gearbox Output Power: 44 Watts*
• Stall Torque: 16.6 ft-lbf*
• Stall Current: 22 amps*

Sincerely,
Andy Baker

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Can we get some specs on the PG71 gearbox, i.e. efficiency and max torque?

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

I believe the specs you are looking at are for the gearmotor, i.e., at the gear output shaft.

Look at the pictures in the report.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

The motor calculator has been updated with the new specs for the am-0914.

Still looking for specs for the FP-9013.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

I am asking about specs for the gearbox alone. Supposing it is attached to a more powerful motor, how much torque can the gearbox take before it breaks and how efficient is it?

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

We did a break test on the PG71 and broke it with an input of 88 ft-lbf of torque.

Andy

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Can the PG71 handle side loads? For example, a sprocket mounted on the shaft?

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Ether:

The FIRST tables show 273W for the 775-18. Isn't that the 18V number? This motor (at 12V) is much less than what FIRST states (less than half of this, or 120W) isn't it? Not too much different than the 775-12 operating at 12V

-Tom

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Hi Tom,

See notes in red below:


RS775-18 at 18 volts:
http://banebots.com/pc/MOTOR-BRUSH/M7-RS775-18

RS775-18 at 12 volts:
http://banebots.com/docs/M7-RS775-18-AT12V.pdf

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Looks like they updated the Motor Data spread sheet. I still don't think it has all the correct FP part numbers as it doesn't match Team Update #2 but I think it's correct on the years at least.

http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default...torInfo3.1.pdf

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Yes, it can. There are two 10mm id ball bearings supporting the output shaft. The bearings are pressed into either side of the face plate, so that the outside to outside dimension of the bearing faces is 0.55".

Andy

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

As far as we can tell, the 9013 does not exist. No one has one, it cannot be purchased, and there are no specs on it anywhere. The only sources we have for this part number are from FIRST, I think its only a matter of time before FIRST finally purges any mistaken references to this mysterious part number. Until then, I'm not too worried about it since I don't have any 9013s that I want specs for. It would just be nice to know that they aren't jumbling specs for all the other motors too.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

We, as well as a number of other teams have received 9013's in our KOP. We have also found at least one in our bin of motors, indicating that they have come in a previous KOP as well, although it would have to be pre-2006 because there is a different FP listed in the KOP checklist for 2006 and later.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Could I talk you into taking a close-up picture and posting it please?

Thanks.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

I'm not in town, but I will get someone else to take a picture at our meeting tonight. The model number is very hard to read as it is etched and not printed onto the casing. We actually didn't find an old 9013 motor, but we did find a flux ring from a 9013 motor, although I have been reminded of a possible non-KOP source for the old motor.

I shouldn't sat that many other teams have received a 9013 in their KOP, but I have read a couple posts where people indicated that they received a 9013 in their KOP.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Here they are, and yes these are from this years kit of parts. :D (I didn't even realize we had 9013s until a few minutes ago)

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Thank you.

I'm finally getting one or two Google hits on this.

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedi...motor-56954272

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

PAR_WIG1350 posed better pictures than we have, so I'll leave it at that.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Does anyone have a table for 2012 Motor Specifications? From a know source.

Motor Name, Free Speed (RPM), Stall Torque (N*m), Stall Current (Amp), Free Current (Amp)

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default...torInfo4.1.pdf

Or you can use this.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Where can we purchase spare MOTORS ONLY for the AM-0914 (RS775 series motor)?

http://www.andymark.com/product-p/am-0914.htm

Do we HAVE to buy the complete assembly to get the same EXACT motor?

Alternitively... what is the difference (if any) between the RS775 motor included in the AM-0914 assembly & this: http://www.andymark.com/product-p/am-0912.htm

Thanks in advance all!

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Well, the stall current for the am-0912 is 63.8 amps, whereas the stall current for the am-0914 is 22 amps, so the motors are substantially different.

http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default...torInfo4.1.pdf

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Are we still taking the info that is on that spec sheet as legit? :rolleyes:

Anyways, I think I answered my own question.

I believe after doing some further research that the http://banebots.com/pc/MOTOR-BRUSH/M5-RS775-12 is the exact replacement motor I'm looking for.

Can anyone confirm or deny this?

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

The stall currents of the am-0912 and am-0914 are too far apart to be due to uncertainties in the specs.

The stall current of the 775-12 is 30 amps, not 22. The max power of the 775-12 is 83 watts; the max power of the am-0914 is 49 watts. Not the exact same motor.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

Does anyone have any information on which FisherPrice motors have internal protection and what kind - ie: Thermal/Current etc?

Furthermore, is the internal protection device considered integral to the motor? Are we permitted to remove the internal protection?

One of my teams powered up their shooter this weekend running two FP motors on an AM double doozie gearbox and it appears there is overload protection built into some of these motors. We tried both with the motors from this year's KOP, as well as the 9015 (I believe.. could have been 9012s though, I am having trouble remembering) and observed similar behavior as each motor would cycle on and off independently from each other (visible by observing the arcing brushes) two or three times until the wheel reached operating speed (takes about 3 sec). This is running them directly off a battery. The flywheel is a 10"x6" aluminum ATV rim directly driven off the double doozie and does indeed suck quite a bit of power until it is up to speed but the load is not unreasonable IMO. The motors while running are warm but not what I would consider hot as I can easily hold my hand around either one with no discomfort. The protection method does not seem to be thermal as they would cycle on/off with a cycle time of about a half second during wind up from a cold start which does not sound like a thermistor type of protection to me rather than a bi-metal type circuit breaker. I suppose it is also possible that the protection device in one motor is weaker than the other and through the action of cutting out, it is dumping more load on the other and causing it to trip. I can appreciate having internal protection on these but it is going to be rather annoying writing a startup function for the shooter.

We tried powering the 2012 motors through both combination of poles on the back of them thinking one pole would bypass the protection device however, it did not work.

Re: Official 2012 Motors Models and Specs Thread
 

**Bump**

Anyone??