Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

Well, as the title implies, I found a youtube video online of FIRST robotics team 2084 RobotsByTheC apparently driving onto the bridge with full mecanum drive, is it legit? you decide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHQuO...eature=related

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

Well done and congrat on the FIRST team to post video

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

A robot that could do this would be a welcome to any alliance, assuming the shooter/scoring function works.

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

Good. Now how does it fair against the steel bump?

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

How are they planing to tilt the bridge? or are they planning to have an alliance member tip it down for them?

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

I believe this is a test with there 2011 bot to see if mecanum would work for the bridge. Nothing more.

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

This is withing no doubt a 2011 robot they are using for proof of concept. I'd like to see a video of them against barrier next.

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

Mecannum wheels are going to get absolutely wrecked on that bump this year.

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

I don't think so. I feel like if you go slow over the bump it wont hurt the wheels. The 2010 bump didn't hurt ours at all. But that's why it would be nice to test.

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

Exactly. We should have a video of automatic balancing out in a few days.

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

Good find Xenozero!

I'm team captain of RobotsByTheC, and I filmed that video. That is in fact our robot from last year. I was kind of surprised the robot was able to do it. Its incredibly top heavy with its center of mass far in the front. The material on the bridge actually has about half the friction of lexan, the material used on the actual bridge. We used fiberboad, because lexan is expensive. :P I'de be happy to take any other questions.

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

While I can't say anything about the legitimacy of the video, I can say that what you saw is possible as we tested for that on Monday and got results saying that it can be done.

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

Check out the 1:00 minute mark on this video for confirmation that mecanums can climb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyn9e...eature=related

With Jaguars and the cRio, building a feeback system to ensure that it climbs straight should be much easier than driving with the open loop controls we had on the robot when we climbed this ramp.

Jason

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

Our team tested our mecanum wheels from last year on the bridge and it was able to go over it perfectly. As for the bump, I think that would be only be possible with shocks.

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

I would like to say congrats! But the isn't the playing surface different?

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

Not to rain on people's parades here, but.....
***Before I go on, I feel I need to point out that I do have experience with Mecanums. 2 years. 1.5 years driving***

• In that first video, some on the other side is holding the ramp up (or down, however you look at it). Now, I can't prove it, but I'm pretty darn sure that that helps the robot get up.
• It took a long time to get up that ramp. Too long.
• 1 out of 5 times that drivetrain will probably fall off, unless you go super slow, which in that case see Bullet point #2
• What happens if for some reason you can't go over the bridge that round? Mecanum's will have an extremely hard time maneuvering the ridge.
• The material on that bridge was different than that of in the real game
• In the second video, the Mecanum's were having a very hard time getting up the bridge (not too sure how it helped Mecanum's case). If anything, it shows that carefully done programming will be required just for your drivetrain.
• The more top heavy these robots become, the harder it will get.
• A preponderance of team's this year will have a strong hard pushing robot. Good luck scoring on one. It's not fun.

Please take my criticism in a constructive manner, as I will do the same.
-Duke

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

Nope, that was another thing we tested on Monday besides balancing the bridge. A robot can go over with 8" wheels. Granted, I have no idea how it would react to slamming straight into it full speed ahead, but then again, I have no idea how any other drive train would do in comparison as well.

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

Much better, for the most part.

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

• I was holding the opposite end of the bridge up to allow the robot on because it doesn't have a lowering mechanism (last year's bot). The robot moved under its own power the entire time.
• There's uneven friction on the mecanums and the fiberboard is ~3x more slippery than the actual Lexan surface, so it takes longer to drive up.
• The drivetrain will not fall off the robot (if that's what you meant), nor will the robot drive off the edge if there's a careful driver.
• Not really. Mecanums still have good grip on the surface of the bridge.
• Not my robot, so I don't know what's up in that video.
• That applies for every robot, too.
• I can't see how that's applicable specifically to mecanums.

Hope this helps.

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

Slippery surface, high CoG robot, early test. Our tests show it doesn't take nearly that long.
The bridge has more than enough maneuvering room; if you fall off it's because you drove really badly.
Find me an opposing robot blocking your bridge and I will find you a nine-point technical foul. Besides, bridge traffic is likely negligible.
Mecanums can have wheel guards and wedges built in, same as any drive.
But it had less friction.
Score from the key.

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

Mecanum wheels have real world applications. Airtrax has video of their forklifts climbing stairs and bumps with them. With the appropriate size wheels and design, i'm not sure why there is a debate.

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

Hopefully im not making this too much of a back and forth argument..... :o

• I know, but i think the fact that the bridge isn't going to move no matter what helps the robot. Not too sure, so let's drop that one.
• Again, not an expert on this aspect, but I think Mecanum's act differently in that they need less friction ( or more friction) than most wheels to work properly. I'll conced this since i can't really support that.
• I meant the entire robot, sorry for the confusion. And notice you said IF the driver drives carefully. Please note again my original second point on how long it will take, and how driving carefully lengthens the time. In addition to this, other factors besides careful driving can affect this. And no, it does not have to be done in the means of a technical foul.
• Again, I can't mathematically support my claim, so i will concede this.
• Not everyone has your robot either. I made this point as a generalization for Mecanum', not necessarily yours in particular.
• Correct, but wheels that have higher friction (e.g., pneumatics) will mitigate the CoG issues.
• I don't know if you've ever played offense in a real match with mecanums with a decent defender. But I have. And for a good defender to push you around is as easy as beating a 2nd grader in basketball.

Round two.

• I disagree. Too long. (stalemate here)
• Not true at all. Many factors determine driving--jjust one of them is the driver's skill. There's no reason to rely on the driver's skill when designing a robot.
• Find me a Regional with every robot code working properly and I will find you the 2013 FRC Water Game Designs. You not making it onto the bridge is not exlusive to technical fouls.
• Why overdesign when you can use other wheels that don't need these ridges? Have you proven yet that these wedges will be effective enough? (In no way am I saying it can't be done.)
• See my earlier point higher in this post. I will concede this.
• Why are assuming you will always be on the key? If I were a defensive driver, there would be plenty of way i could keep you off the key, directly and/or indirectly.

-Duke

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

No point in continuing to argue this one, we just disagree. We'll see once I've got [S]better[/S] prototypes on my end.
Maximum width of robot including bumpers is 36 inches. Maximum wheel-to-wheel distance is more like 26. You have more than a foot of room to misaim... if you fall of the bridge in the process of crossing it, your driver did something horribly wrong, no matter how good your software is.
So, uh, you're saying that we could be blocked from crossing the bridge if two robots independently break down in front of two separate bridges and are too heavy to be pushed out of the way? The odds of that are so negligible that it's hardly worth discussing.
Or you could just not design for the ridges. It's not like they're necessary to cross for most robots. (If all three robots on an alliance are regularly crossing midfield, think of the time wasted!) I haven't tried the wedges, but I'm 99% sure they'll work. Remember, any drive built to cross the ridge needs an elevated chassis to avoid high-centering anyways, so all you're adding is extra metal plates.
I'm not assuming you'll be there, I'm saying you can get there. Maybe there have never been good tank drive defense robots at my regional, but I kind of doubt that. Pushing mecanum drives is indeed fairly easy, but it's not pushing them around that's the hard part of defense, it's maintaining the push.

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

I'm too lazy to continue this argument, and frankly, it's stupid to continue it. You'll find out once you play with Mecanum's this year.
Can't say i didn't try.
-Duke

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

I think this is definitely the year to use mecanums. A lot of teams will have a solid performance if they use mecanums. I say go for it!

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

What's your reasoning?

The only pure mecanum team that's ever stood out to me was 2337's machine last year. Every year I see a multitude of mecanum teams that don't really implement them very well, drive very sluggishly, and get pushed around constantly.

Also, a lot of teams tend to shy away from mecanum teams when picking for eliminations if they are able to. Personally, if I'm a top 8 team trying to find a solid second pick at a regional and i'm presented with two identical robots in all aspects, but one has mecanum wheels and the other is the standard kitbot, I'm picking the 6 wheel, no question about it.

If you're a team that's thinking of using mecanum wheels, make sure you do it right. Talk to a team that's had a lot of success with mecanum, such as 2826 or 2337. they're some of teams I've seen up close that actually managed to stay competitive while using that type of drivetrain.

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

I don't think you're raining on anyone's parade by providing practical advice based on your experience, however the intent of the video I posted was not to show that "it is easy to do", but rather that "it can be done", and (as you have correctly emphasized) to point out that software can make a huge difference in how mecanums behave.

In the bigger context, though, your experience with mecanum drives clearly shows. Every benefit provided by mecanums comes at a cost. Even the added mobility, which many see as a pure benefit, comes at the cost of additional driver training and practice driving time to fully utlize it.

The year we built mecanum the added complexities of our drive (and other mechanisms) meant that we did not have the final, working robot ready until about 2 hours before the FedEx truck arrived. It wasn't until the end of our second regional before our driver was truly able to intuitively take advantage of our increased mobility to deke out other robots. It was AWESOME when it worked... just beautiful, really... but until then we wasted a lot of time in pushing battles where our mecanum really didn't help.(Although it didn't hurt nearly as much as we had expected... we could hold ground with many robots and actually push some with 2 motor drives or poor gear choices.)

In our final year of competition we built a torquey 8 wd machine that could accelerate, stop, turn 90 degrees and accelerate in about the same amount of time that the mecanum could drive forward, then strafe sideways. It was an easy build/program (not that mecanums are particularly hard to program with the cRio), a top pushing machine that could "get air" off the bumps and, in the end... very close to as maneuverable as the mecanum.

But it wasn't as cool.

Duke has it right... there are lots of good reasons why mecanums aren't the best choice for this year's game... or for any year's game. But they do work, they CAN climb, and they are very, very cool.

Our mecanum robots competition life was over in a few months, but five years later I still have people asking me "what's with those wheels?"

If you haven't built/driven a mecanum, you owe it to yourself to try it at some point. Maybe this year...?

Jason

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

Those teams would have been competitive because of what was on top of their drivetrain, not what the wheels were. 357 by all means is the mecanum expert, but they aren't as strong in other aspects of their robots each year as 2826 or 2337 are.

I can easily bet that if 111, 1114, 217, 148, or 254 used macanums they would still be highly competitive as usual.

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

Here is our 2011 bot with mecanum going over the bridge. Keep in mind the driver was taking it very slow. Yes, there is some wheel spin but we had no real trouble with the bridge head on.
link

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

i highly doubt that it will work on the lexan key let alone the key

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

So basically if you practice and engineer them well they work. In my past experience I love these wheels they make chasing balls very easy. But once again you need practice time to make them work. And a quick thinking driver.

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. From what I understand, the polycarb that will be in use on the field is on the bridge as we have in the video. HDPE is what the key is made from and looks to be about 0.25" thick and horizontal. I would expect the key to be less troublesome than the bridge, but I have been wrong before :yikes:

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

We've also done some testing with a mecanum DRIVE TRAIN (Keep this in mind, there was no extra weight on the robot than the necessary electronics, the frame, and the wheels)

We were able to climb over the bump WITHOUT the assistance of any sort of wedge while using 8" Mecanum wheels. In order to satisfy my curiousity, I also rammed the bump at full speed and was able to climb over with no trouble. The only time that we had a problem was when you WEREN'T quick enough and the robot bottomed out. (Which was rather simple to stop from happening entirely) Wedges were added later and did make it easier to climb over. We used some sort of bent metal bar that our mentor picked up a local hardware store.

We also tested two bridge materials one of which was mildly representative of a legitimate bridge and the other was a plywood mockup. The "mildly representative" bridge was essentially a folding table at a 45 degree angle and we were able to climb it AS LONG AS we had some speed before we attempted to climb. We were able to get to the top of the table in ~3.5 seconds (depending on the driver). On the plywood bridge, we were able to climb in no time at all. We also were able to balance rather easily as we were able to spin on the spot and better focus our mass.

Keep in mind that these tests may not be at all representative of a 120 pound robot.

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

FIRST Team 1296 used mecanum last year and it worked well. We finished 2nd to 148 (by a single point in one match) during qual rounds in Dallas and did well Saturday afternoon. Our drive train ran perfectly all season - it still is. I think 148 has used something they called octocanum in the past (mecanum plus 4 high traction wheels). All to say that it CAN be done and done very well. It took a very good bot and good drivers to attempt to slow us down last year. We simply slide a little to one side or the other and push by on their corner. A 6-wheel drive bot will push around mecanum if they are pushing parallel to the long axis of the 6-wheel bot but that does not happen very often. Most of the time we had a little fun teasing 6-wheelers, spinning them around and faking them out.

The clues to making mecanum work are precise mechanical alignment and using encoders on all 4 wheels with good software. So its only a good choice for teams that can implement and support these prerequisites.

Winning robots have ultra-reliable drive trains that aid in implementing their game strategy. Given that platform - it is clever, reliable mechanisms on top of the robot that put you in the top 8. For example we had a quick, reliable arm and claw last year on top of a drive train we never touched after week 2 of the build season.

HTH

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

148 actually uses something called Nonadrive, 4 traction, 4 omni wheels, and one drop down omni for lateral movement. They did not use the drop down omni last year, to my knowledge.

I'm sorry if I sounded like I was saying that there are only a few good mecanum teams. If you look at my post, you'll see that I used the word "Personally", meaning that those are some of the teams I've seen UP CLOSE that use mecanum wheels effectively. I've never seen your team compete, therefore I can't pass judgement.

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

The "nonadrive" is an evolution and you are correct, they discarded the center wheel in 2011. One of their mentors told me their drivers were rarely using the center wheel so they removed it. Earlier versions (from previous years) used mecanum wheels instead of omni wheels. They didn't see a huge benefit and wanted to reserve more power so they switched away from mecanum.

No need to apologize but mentors should be positive (in my humble opinion) and an engineering judgement in such matters is not particularly relevant ;o). Facts are facts, there are records and plenty of video out there. If a student wants to build a hover-craft for rebound rumble, we tell them it is a crazy idea. If a student wants to build a mecanum drive, we tell them it requires special skill sets - that is all I'm saying. A student, to be taken seriously, should endeavor to offer informed opinions in a public forum.

Good luck this year!!

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

To my knowledge 148 has never put mecanum wheels on their robot. Unless when they were creating prototypes for their nonadrive they experimented with mecanums before they used omnis.

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

Pretty sure 148 had them in 2006.

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

When 488 posted pictures of their octocanum, JVN mentioned that 148 had tried it in the off-season.

See this thread

Re: Mecanum on the bridge?!
 

Probably, the only picture that I could see of 148 in 2006 didn't clearly show the drivetrain.