[Molten]

Ok, as a reply to Jaine:

"Do you really think men are suffering on an institutional level (equivalent to how women currently suffer) just because of a few all-girls STEM programs?"

My point isn't that we are suffering equally by it. My point is that your just adding more differences. Your widening the gap of equal treatment between men and women. Whether it is for one gender's benefit or the other, sexism is sexism. You can't both fight it while promoting it.

"How do you propose to magically remove the cultural advantages given to males without making any real concerted effort to level the playing field?"

I'm not saying that you shouldn't try to help girls out. I'm just suggesting that you might be better off having after-school activities that promote learning how to use power-tools to all kids from a younger age. If you want, make it mother-daughter nights and father-son nights. Do the same with cooking and other things guys generally avoid. This issue really should be dealt with at the youngest age possible before the child is completely set in their sexist ways.

"I agree with you that parents should raise their children equally, but how do we convince people that equal treatment is necessary? The only way to do that is by shattering the stereotypes and demonstrating to the world that women and girls CAN make great scientists and engineers, and that raising them differently on the basis of their gender is patently wrong."

I really don't see this as a means of convincing at all. I mean, I've seen alot of successful people of minorities and none of them have made those around them believe that equal treatment is necessary. The first woman in space was back in 1963. That is about as big a publicity stunt I can imagine. If that didn't work, what do you think would? In short, that is not "the only way". I'm not even sure if that way really works. It would seem a way would be to promote technology to all students starting in elementary and working its way into power tools.

"Again, you must think we live in some kind of dream world where every instance of sexism and racism is dealt with swiftly and justly. I can tell you from personal experience in engineering that this is not the case. If it were possible to ensure that no sexism was ever allowed to occur on any FIRST team ever, then yeah -- obviously there wouldn't be any need for all girl-teams. But until that day -- when we have stamped-out all forms of sexism -- we need to keep trying to effect positive cultural change, and many of the all-girl teams have proven themselves quite effective at doing just that."

On this one I think you missed my point completely. If you were to stamp out all sexism and racism in the world except for women only and minority only teams/scholarships/organizations/whatever, sexism and racism would still exist because these organizations exist. I'm also not suggesting that the world is perfect on this matter. Sometimes things go unnoticed, but if a worker is discriminating...eventually it will catch up with them. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but at some point there will be repercussions.

"Likewise, we can't just tell people to stop being sexist (i.e. attacking only the "problem")... but we can show them why and how stereotypes fail by giving young women room to grow without judgement. The more visibly successful women there are in STEM, the more people's prejudices will begin to break down. In this way, I don't see how we could view the mitigation of the "symptom" as anything other than a success."

This one I'm just going to admit I'm confused. How is showing successful women prove they are disadvantaged? I found the story by Mikell Taylor's story was a much stronger statement of why it is wrong than all the personal statements of success this thread has had combined. Women who are successful are poor examples of the sexism because of their success. Instances of women who could do amazing things but were discouraged would be much more compelling.

Note to all: Though this is a direct response to Jaine and her comments, I welcome thoughts from all and thanks for the interesting topic.

Jason