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Originally Posted by Molten
I didn't suggest once they'd linger to oppress men. Whats more, I've not once suggested they oppress men in the least. Just that they, in themselves, are a form of sexism as long as they have a gender requirement to be a part of the team.
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If they aren't contributing to the oppression of men, especially in a broad societal sense, then they aren't sexist. What's the use in labeling something "____ist" when it doesn't contribute to the oppression of a group?
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I completely admit that I don't have to deal with this every day of my life as women in professional engineering do. I have however had "real-world experience trying to contend with discrimination".
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I'm not going to try to tell you that the things you have gone through weren't difficult or challenging, but as you admitted yourself -- what you've described hardly comes close to being representative of the kinds of institutionalized discrimination women face in engineering. You simply haven't had the experience of being discriminated against in a workplace where, for example, making a complaint about sexism/harassment by one of your superiors could cause you to get passed over for leadership positions and promotions, could ruin your reputation amongst colleagues, and could even cost you your job.*
I'm not trying to be condescending, although I am sure my irritation is coming through in my posts. It's hard not to let some frustration rise to the surface when someone compares being accidentally called a "lady" in a high school marching band to the experience of a woman contending with the kind of discrimination that can ruin her career. This is the stuff of my life -- not some abstract theorem that I can discuss without any emotional involvement.
(I know I know, us silly laydeez and our craaazy emotions!!1!11
)
<-- just a joke, not trying to put words in your mouth
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As you continually reference to my living in a dream world...Yes I dream big. So has most of the people who have had real impact in this world. Martin Luther King Jr is most famous for his "dream" speech. I imagine many people back then thought he lived in a dream world.
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Big difference between the words of Dr. King and the things you said to me. Dr. King had visions of a dream world which did not yet (and still does not) exist. You tried to tell me that the dream has already arrived, when I know for a fact that it has not.
-- Jaine
*not saying that this is the case in EVERY engineering job... there are many great companies for women to work, and a lot of supportive men out there. But these are real experiences that come from actual colleagues of mine... different workplaces can vary widely in their supportiveness/hostility, and sometimes the workplace dynamic doesn't end up being as supportive as it seemed initially.