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Unread 15-04-2013, 14:16
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Re: [YMTC]: Contact Inside the Bumper Perimeter

First my "short" answer: A Technical Foul could be called on either alliance or no foul. This situation is interesting and highly dependent on specifics & judgment of the refs. In other words "I would have to see it"

Now to my earlier remark and the discussion around it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangemoore View Post
There is no penalty for red because the penalty was caused by actions of the blue robot.
This is how I interpret this response (let me know if I am mistaken):
G29 Technical foul on RedBot1 will not be assessed because the actions of the Blue Alliance caused this foul

That call is not an option, because it has no basis in the rules. If a G29 has occurred it must be assessed, unless a G18-1 Technical Foul is called against the opposing to cancel the assessment of that G29. Either way one side is getting a Technical Foul, you can’t “forgive” fouls. The only case of no foul is if a G29 has not occurred.

G18-1 was the most glaring omission from the Game Rules at Kickoff IMHO. I believe that helped it become the most misunderstood rule this year. In my experience, a solid majority of FRC participants (even ones who read the rules multiple times and have a good understanding of others) do not understand G18-1. This is most noticeable with >60" Disk blockers and G22 calls. I believe underlying source of the misunderstanding is obsolete rules (G44 from last year is still in the back of mind), rules from other competitions (like FTC), or person wishes about the rules. G18-1 is very different than G44 in 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2012 G44
Generally, a rule violation by an Alliance that was directly caused by actions of the opposing Alliance will not be
penalized. Rule [G28] is an exception to this rule.
Here is speculation on my part about the reason for this major change from year to year. After Kickoff the GDC realized they needed a G44 like rule in TU 1-11, but they didn't want a rule exactly like G44 or they just would have used it verbatim except for changing G28 to a list of this year’s rules. Making exceptions to the rule is bad practice (but better than the alternative), and on several occasions teams used strategies just to rack up the G28 fouls (some refs would card them). The GDC chose instead to implicitly allow alliances to cause their opponents fouls in the normal run of play, and explicitly give them a Technical Foul if they use it as a strategy. This puts the emphasis on teams to not put themselves in a situation where they are a high risk for a foul, while discouraging opponents with foul points (not just a possible card) from taking advantage of this situation. This is a new approach, let’s see if they stick with it. Rules like 2012 G44 only go back to 2008, if I remember rule history correctly. Before that you could cause your opponents to get all the penalties you wanted with no consequences (there were not any cards either).

Quote:
Originally Posted by DevenStonow View Post
G18-1 would not be applied here. The wording of G18-1 is:

Emphasis mine. The intention of BlueBot2 was to get RedBot1 off of BlueBot1 in order to free BlueBot1, not to solely make RedBot1 be more inside the FP of BlueBot1
G18-1 is certainly a consideration here, doesn’t necessarily need to be called. That is which is what makes this YMTC so interesting. I was trying to nudge the discussion and get others interpretations, before I added mine. I think Eric broke down the implications of BlueBot2 ‘s actions in regard to G18-1 & G28well, so I will focus on questions around G29:
Is there significant damage on BlueBot1 to be considered “damaging contact”?
If not, no foul. I don’t consider this situation deliberate contact. Keep in mind G29 is an OR condition not an AND condition (“Deliberate or damaging contact”). Some are dismissing the foul because it wasn’t deliberate, but that doesn’t matter if it was damaging.
If there is significant damage (components cut, torn, shattered, etc…) then one side should get a Technical Foul, which side depends on robot actions.

Did RedBot1 immediately try to get off of BlueBot1?
If you find yourself in a precarious position, you should immediately try to remedy the situation. To use another cliché, if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. If it looks like the damage was caused before BlueBot2 hit them, the Technical Foul is probably on Red. If Blue forced the damage, then probably Technical Foul on Blue. It is hard to be definitive in this hypothetical.

In this case, the consequences of these rules (G29 & G18-1) are most likely unintended. In other cases such as G22 & G30 I suspect they are intentional.
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