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Unread 19-03-2014, 01:38
cglrcng cglrcng is offline
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Re: It could happen to you (but we hope not)

I'm going to type this.....Then walk away for an hour or so, and either post or not post it. (Please do not attack the writing therein...I feel passionate & compassionate in sticking in my 2 cents here today). Call it personal therapy.

This is not a Ref problem IMHO as I see it (though they were certainly thrown head first into the deep depths of the following, and will not be rescued until 2015 Game Release and the beginning of match play then, I fully suspect. Which may just be much too late for many of those wonderful volunteers that are devoted to keeping FIRST games fair to all of the participants).

It is a Game Design Problem. No, that is incorrect. In my personal opinion, it is a whole and very serious host of Game Design Problems. (Sry GDC, usually you are up well above "being up to snuff", and it seems to go years from what I understand, between true poorly designed games, from what I have seen in my short time volunteering with FIRST.

This great game of Aerial Assist, is one of those minor to major failures though. (I personally read the complete rules beginning to end, 3 times myself, and all the updates, and hundreds of discussions here on CD, before we completed the bot build period & since (as what really interests & excites me the most personally as a mentor, beyond mentoring students of course), is the intricate game play and strategy itself. Usually quite AMAZING! This years game, just isn't the best of the best.

It is, what drew me to FRC and FIRST Competition...Formerly an NHRA drag race bracket racing champion, and a Stock Eliminator driver, who is used to rules and rules changes, and a thick rule book...The BOOK IS YOUR FRIEND, and YOU not knowing that rule book is your enemy, so YOU CAN BE YOUR ENEMY, and it can be your downfall before you even begin the playing the game...Or building a robot to compete within this game).

And then, I recently attempted to help teach a few of our own team human players during practice, how to play their very ever changing game positions, that they self admittedly (even after much prodding every day from every mentor, all around for weeks and weeks)....They had never even attempted to even read them for themselves until after they started to practice). That is of course, not a GDC error.

What I see...Too many conflicting rules to begin with, for each High School Student playing the game to begin to attempt to memorize this year (some of the Great Ref's. out there get confused as we see). Penalties that are too high to begin with, for the actual robot designs allowed, and then many too many rules changes after play began (wherein many teams were already eliminated for the season, after playing in their 1 and only Regional or 2). The rest of us are playing under a complete different rules set almost weekly.

Note: I messed this part up below, and had to go actually look at what the actual changes were again, before I could even type this next part correctly.....Sure glad I'm not a student human player. And I have age & experience on my side. (Or is that my enemy?)

From the current rule book Section 2.2.1 The Field
(as reads today 3-18-2014 @ 2:58 PM AZ Time...Will it change again?)

The HUMAN PLAYER BARRIER is a system that consists of horizontal pipes that are 1 ft. 8 in. above the floor and are supported by sheet metal struts that are integrated into the GUARDRAIL. The HUMAN PLAYER BARRIER extends 1 ft. 8 in. wider than the GUARDRAIL and creates a barricade between HUMAN PLAYERS and ROBOTS. The SAFETY ZONE is a 2 in. wide, infinitely tall region located 8 in. from the FIELD-side plane of the GUARDRAILS and is defined by yellow tape on the Human Player Barrier Brackets and the Human Player Barrier End Brackets.

(Emphasis mine above). Then looking at Figure 2-2b. That 12" side is the human player side. That SAFETY ZONE 2 in. wide, infinitely tall region located 8" from the field plane of the guardrail, & is actually taped 8" through 10" from the Field-side plane of the GUARDRAILS.

Note: Guardrail 2" + Human Player Barrier 1'-8" wider than the guardrail=Approx. 22" from Field-side plane of the guardrails. And then later, after Week Zero (not everyone has a Week Zero opportunity)...The SAFETY ZONE WAS MAGICALLY CREATED! (i understand the reasoning, HUMAN STUDENT SAFETY, and I applaud it).

Now, originally as released, the Human Players had from the field side plane/edge of the guardrail outward of the HUMAN PLAYER BARRIER or a full 22" of The HUMAN PLAYER BARRIER to play with inbounding that 24" or 25" Big Ball (Set the ball on the pipes, place a human hand on both sides and you are well within the Human Player Zone).

After week 1, the MAGIC SAFETY ZONE was created. So they were reduced to only 12" Human Player Barrier to play (mind you, the Human Player Zone lines taped to the floor never changed, and we didn't import a ton of very short armed students after Week Zero just to play this game).(Set the ball on the pipes now, place a human hand on both sides, and you well could have your fingertips well within the MAGIC & VERY COSTLY SAFETY Zone).

I personally instructed ours to set it on & roll it off the pipes into our bot, hands behind the ball, flick your wrists and fingertips up, w/ arms locked to your sides as 12"= shorter than most of their hands and wrists and forearms.

And to at all cost, avoid ever trying to fix their mistakes of missing a bot, and reaching to fix it, which comes very natural for teenagers, and that is hugely costly. Those bots were made to P.U. from the floor well I stressed. Do not hold the ball, put it into play on the field quickly. (Of course in reality, many times, they will be feeding a much different bot, and they will have to toss that ball.....I cannot stand the thought, to even look forward to watching it...But, they will all find their own way eventually.

I also agree though, it is much safer for our students. So keep that safety zone, allow for inadvertent crossing when it is NOT dangerous, and lower that penalty due to the much less space allowed to actually inbound that rather large ball. But, test and do it before game release next time please. Week 1 should be the Start of Competition Season...Not testing season for the game.

After Week 2... a slight amount of relief or leeway was evidentally given again w/ another rule change, concerning that SAFETY ZONE (though if you took a poll among students and mentors, and probably even Ref's this week (in Competition Week 4), you would get all kinds of crazy explainations of exactly what those Update Figures published & given actually do fully represent in the updates across the board). Just adds much more for a Ref to be subjective about...Like they need even 1 more thing in this game.

IE: Human players get 20" (or 22" sidelines..depending on what you read in the rulebook), sidelines to begin with on Game Release Day (just do not break the plane of the inside of the guardrail...DO NOT ENTER THE FIELD, Touch a bot, or touch a ball touching a bot, then removing 10" (8" inside from sideline inner rail given to the robots on occasion as long as it isn't intentional and repeated +2" Yellow Tape completes the newly created "2" wide/deep Safety Zone"), reducing them - Human Players, to only the outer 12" they originally had when the game was released, and this done right before actual game play begins between Week Zero and when Week 1 Matches start (I understand...In the name of Safety).

Then Week 1 game play begins and a ton of 50 point penalties are called (and admittedly not called), (some teams are done for the season at this point BTW)....So, begins another rules change order before Week 2 (we are now going to give some leeway, but attempt to figure out these quickly thrown together but decent figures posted in the update)....Now, I ask....How in the World can an average High School Student (yes, most of our students are well above average, but...), be expected to keep up w/ those constant (and very expensive on their behalf if they violate those ever changing rules), changes and not get confused and therefore...PENALIZED BIG? (The unusally high number of replays proves it).

So, what happens? Change the rules again. And, all this while those same rules in effect lay so much subjectiveness in super fast calls, all heaped upon so few refs (as this game would take 10 - and instant replays which are not allowed...we have a match schedule to keep you know,....to catch absolutely everything that happens, and then the use of those Uhm..Wonderful Touchpads that the Ref's have to actually look at to use often in the game, in my foolish opinion, not to mention lag time for the pads, requiring them to physically end a cycle by manual input, etc., etc., etc.).
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And there are just so many this year, some rules conflict (like the dead ball must be called by a drive team w/ provided placard on inside of the clear driver station wall (only 1 per customer / & 1 used per Alliance per match please!)...Where the Ref's are absolutely not looking most of the time BTW in most of the vids I have seen so far that have had many stuck same color balls, (and opposite color balls where that card isn't even necessary, see below)..., If your Alliances ball get's caught up in your color robot). And, if that ball is later freed up (since it isn't declared field debris), you must clear it from the field (or, is it score it, I forget now after some vids I recently watched), before you can accumulate assist points...or any other points.

But, if caught in an opposing Alliances Robot (Blue on Red or Red on Blue), the Ref is supposed to instantly, if not cleared by the robot in question of course that is now posessing an opposing alliance ball, call the ball dead, end the cycle, light the pedestal to begin a new cycle, and declare that ball field debris.....Which is why this thread even exists.

(My personal strategy opinion Students...If any ball is declared field debris...Remove it through a 1 point goal as soon as reasonably possible...Get rid of it, debris or not). Just my opinion. As an extra ball on the field can just confuse all of you and the Ref's. too (I have seen it happen, it creates mass confusion), of either color.

Those 2 rules alone contradict each other BIG, are not complementary to each other, caused even the Head Ref confusion at the Utah Regional (subject of this thread BTW. I watched it live...He did look at the drivers station for a dead ball card...again rules confusion affected the Head Ref...and it isn't his fault in my opinion). Causing him to (not P.U. a book, to make the final call, which should have been A REPLAY Call under T16 "...error(s) by Field Personnel"), but, instead he called HQ, who settled the issue by determining that a replay was in order. The conflicting rules listed above caused that, more than not. Head Ref. IMHO...You are more than OFF THE HOOK, TY for your valuable time. (And I feel for all of you brothers and sisters officiating in 2014 Aerial Assist, even more than in many other years). Again Thank You!

That phone call, coming immediately after rules were violated across the board by allowing MENTORS to argue the calls blown due not IMHO to Ref error, but Game Rules Creation Errors, Field Element Errors, Software bugs & Rule Tinkering to make the squeeky wheels among us, happy after game release (some even in the name of safety), and then we have system bugs not discovered prior to the Game Release, a major thing or few called to the attention of FIRST HQ along the way, and hidden for a short period of time, instead of exposed early & fixed (until called out publicly here), like matches...lots of them at a single Regional w/ timing 20 seconds less than regulation game length, including all the eliminations matches (but not necessarily all of the qualifications matches).....I could go on forever and we are only beginning Week 4. Can't fix it now Sry...We have a a schedule to keep you know. (I need to not go there at all any further). It isn't my horse.

OK, my personal rant is almost over...Sry ALL.

My personal solution (and I DO NOT suggest it for anyone else, it is my personal solution only...and yes, it hurts me really bad, and yes, I will still be watching to the very last second of the Championships. I just will not be participating further this season). I have simply "opted out" of the balance of the 2014 FIRST FRC season. Call it rules heartbreak, and simple personal disgust & disappointment, (disappointments in life happen), but done w/ an air of Gracious Professionalism...I will not cause a scene, and I'm not attempting to here either. Just adding my 2 cents concerning the tread, and the causes in my opinion...Nobody's fault. Period.

My entire team, my Son(s) - 1 a Senior student competitor w/ an amazing brain & 4 year drive team member, programmer and all around leader, robot builder and great kid -1 an FTA in training that has spent a career doing what an FTA does, by helping wire the internet world we actually live in today, and my lovely Education/Mentor Wife (and now you), know I have opted out, and that I will not be joining them tomorrow night as they leave for their 1st competition of 2014- a Week 4 Regional.

They just do not actually truly know why yet. Any confusion as to why, on their part, is ALL MY FAULT (something else teamwise minor happened, but that only helped me w/ my actual decision)....I just have not explained fully yet. (The Aerial assist game excites me, but it also disappoints me highly).

Well, actually, I just did at length above explain it and here & now.

Compassion & Passion for FIRST, for the students, the game, all of the the wonderful, giving of their important time FIRST Employees, Mentors & volunteers, and especially compassion for the VOLUNTEER REF's that are stuck with the nasty volunteer job of officiating this particular game, this particular year, as your job is more than tough, it is IMPOSSIBLE to fully be fair in doing so (and it isn't one bit your fault)....This particular game is exciting to watch!....Also, it is...Too subjective, w/ too much going on, and there will be many continued blown or missed calls, and field problems due to no fault of your own, or anyone elses fault (I will also include here everyone in the GDC, as you tried hard, the game is exciting, and all the FIRST employees and others at HQ). It has to be hard for the GDC to come up w/ a winner game every year nonstop.

Folks...In life, I am no quitter. I troubleshoot computers for a living, and no dumb box has ever beat me, or ever will (even if it takes days and nights of constant sleep deprivation to solve the issues at hand)...My motto: "No Coffee too strong, no night too long, to get to the bottom of exactly what's wrong!" Stepping away is hard, even for a short bit. Buyers remorse? maybe.

In the world of both business and games though....Sometimes a project or product, is just so absolutely bad, that it should be scrapped. Sometimes, we have way too much invested in a project to just give up on it and call it a day or set in a delay. Cancel the project and move on? Shelve it and start another project?....Then, go back to that one when you have solved some of the worst issues, and killed off or fixed some of the minimal bugs that need fixing to be even a minimal of success. Some, you just have to make the best of a bad situation, and move on w/ the schedule and take your lump w/ a .

Businesses are lost everyday due to some people not knowing just when to stop or change course a bit, breathe deep, recover, then move on (because schedules have to just be kept, and a "the show must go on" mentality). In our case the schedule cannot be changed. Venues are reserved, rooms pd. for, school schedules are well, school schedules...The nature of our beast.

But, certain issues must be prioritized and handled first...and others dead last. Fix the field bugs first (but, additions to the field that were not in the designs are not 1 of those IMO, and the default game time should default reset, after every match in my opinion). Change HOW IT IS RUN AND OFFICIATED somehow first please FIRST, then, when it is all fixed on your end...Then and only then, listen to the whiners among us who didn't actually look at ALL the field drawings, and just say NO, SO SRY...those were the rules we released on release day, design to the rules (rule changes for safety reasons we need to understand, but if you reduce player space in one area, expand it on the floor in the same area).

The real reason I'm opting out....I personally do not want to do or say something at an event this year (A very possible G13, that I felt coming on from the soles of my feet welling up like a wave...Due to outright game rules frustration), that would reflect badly on the FIRST Community, my team, myself, or my family....And, you will not be able to hear me scream from my home, as I have screamed often Week 1-Week 3, while watching matches that are, at least to me (and many I see posting on CD), obviously unfair (though through absolutely no fault whatsoever of the officiants or the participants), while I multi-stream every match I can possibly view. I hope things get better as the season progresses though, for all involved.

Good luck to ALL the Teams (and everyone else too)...Go get em'...and don't "let that happen to you." Thanks for letting me rant...I needed that.
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BTW.....IMHO...HQ was correct on the call during the phone call. A replay should have been called; T16.... errors by Field Personnel (sadly to say, but it will continue to be the nature of this game, as that has occurred in many, many of the matches I have seen), and was necessary in this case due both to, the Ref not making a good call on the stuck Blue Ball in a Red Bot (on his own volition immediately, & as per the rule), and also for the Ref not lighting up of the Red pedestal (if it were actually the Ref's fault...very debatable from what I have seen so far and I have seen many, many matches w/ avail. rewind capabilities and use them often), at the conclusion of the completed cycle...And a yellow card violation of T13 (though there is no penalty specifically and actually listed for any violation of T13), or a called G6 Penalty:Robot Disable, for each NON-Pre-College age Student present, for significant delay of match (at the very least), should have been shown to each & every "MENTOR" that showed their face anywhere near that after match question box, without being called over personally by the Head Ref. (Sry MENTORS, or shall I say NON-Pre-College Age Students involved, but Rule T13 is plain & simple.

T13

If a TEAM needs clarification on a ruling or score, one (1) pre-college student from that TEAM should address the Head Referee after the ARENA reset signal (i.e. PLAYER STATION LED strings turn green). A TEAM member signals their desire to speak with the Head Referee by standing in a Red or Blue Question Box, which are located on the floor near each end of the scoring table. Depending on timing, the Head Referee may postpone any requested discussion until the end of the subsequent MATCH.

*Notice no actual penalty for violation there of the T13 questioning process actually exists? It may elsewhere, but, I have not found it.
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Added later:

Also, I saw while watching the Sacramento Reg. last weekend a G6 D. "Changing Bumpers on the field", leading to an actual G14, for a scheduled qualifying rematch actually "caused by the officials" (and of course it was not called on the Alliance or Team), all due to the "we have to keep our schedule running attitude." Hurry up and fail never works as planned in business or pleasure. Keeping them off the field, and waiting for that bumper change to be completed would have been very proper. Allowing & requiring that change while on the field was absolutely not proper, according to that big blue box under G6. Specifically G6 D.

And, the not calling of a Stuck Red Ball when it was pinned between a Red lower goal and a Blue fallen over robot w/ no space to get to the ball without redbot continually bashing that stricken blue robot repeatedly, risking further damage to a disabled robot on its side, was absolutely criminal IMO at another event (either it was Week 3 Sacramento or Utah). I could go on and on & on.....I'll stop now though finally. Whew.

Just be as consistant in the calls as possible please. There are children watching. I am insenced, and my team has yet to even compete yet. (So this smart man is just staying home this time). But, I will be watching and cheering them all on. If it goes bad...I'll be in the SAFETY ZONE without getting penalized except for my personal decisions.

Go try to have fun kids! It isn't about the robot or the game. It is about learning and having fun right. STEM, and fairness too...But, sometimes life, just isn't fair. And that my friends is the lesson of Aerial Assist 2014.

A Very Valiant effort FIRST, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, and sometimes life just kicks you in the teeth for no reason at all, no matter how hard you try....That's why they made Dentists!

OP...Build that frame stronger and go get em' next time.