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Unread 17-04-2014, 16:33
rich2202 rich2202 is offline
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Re: It could happen to you (but we hope not)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonymousMarvin View Post
Okay so hypothetical, at colorado in SF 2-1, 2996 got pushed halfway into 4153, now same result only the team halfway into the opposing robot put themselves there intentionally. To clairfy I am not talking about the exact situation in Colorado just a similar hypothetical, would there be a pin and a G28 called. I have no idea, just wanted to know.
First, there is a G18 violation (supported by another robot). If they are pushed, then G14 applies, and G18 is not called. Note: This presumes that bot rode up onto the other bot to be halfway into the opposing robot.

Similarly for G28 (violating the frame perimeter), if they are pushed, then G14 applies, and G28 is not called.

If "put themselves there intentionally", then that is a clear G18 violation (assuming bot rode up onto the other bot) and/or G28 (deliberate).

You have not explained why pin (G29) applies. If it does (the other robot cannot move), then the same analysis applies. Or, are you arguing that that is pushed onto the other robot is pinned because it cannot move off the other robot. An interesting interpretation of the rule. I would not call G29, and call G14 instead. If they called G29, then they have to explain why they did not call G18 or G28 on you. By calling G14, any violations you have are waived.

The question is: Does G14 get called. There are times when an alliance forces the opponent to violate a rule. Sometimes G14 and the opponent violation are not called because it was an inadvertent G14. The simplest example being: Red is inbounding a ball. Blue is between the Human player and the red robot. Human player does a sissy throw and the ball lands squarely in the Blue robot. Blue immediately ejects the red ball.

Regarding whether the Ref's should know all the rules:

Like I said, if it involves game play, then the Head Ref should know that rule inside and out.

With most rules, the Ref's know a violation has occurred, but could not cite the exact rule at that second. After a match, the Ref's confer on the various fouls observed (whether indicated by a call, or not), and then the fouls are finalized. During this time, they discuss the details of the infraction and the rule (frame violation occurred - was there damage, or did it seem intentional).

In an ideal world, the Ref's could watch hours of video on each rule (all the nuances) so that by the time of the matches, they would know each rule inside and out. In reality, at the Regional, especially the earlier ones, the qualification matches are the first time they see how the rules play out in real life.

And, when they change a rule mid season, such as G27 on ramming, there is a lot of interpretation on what was intended. What do they mean by "Strategies aimed at ... damage ... such as high-speed ... ramming". Does that mean all high-speed ramming is a foul? Obviously if damage resulted, then that is a foul. Otherwise, how do you discern intent in order for it to be a strategy to cause damage, rather than just getting there fast for a good defense? If Red Bot comes across court full speed to hit and move Blue Bot that is positioning itself to catch a truss throw, isn't that the way the game is played?

Also, there is a lot to watch. 4 refs watch the balls - 2 refs for each color. 2 of them only follow the ball - the other 2 break off, such as when a ball is about to be scored they shift attention to the ball on the pedestal. The rest watch everything else. If a Ref is watching the ball, they may not see the opponent coming up until it is upon the ball. At that point, it is too late to figure out what happened prior to the infraction to discern intent. Although a Ref may have seen the incident, they may not have been watching for the infraction, and thus not have enough information to make the call.

Here is a simple one to think about: Ball is sitting on the safety zone rail between the human player and the robot. What happens?

The Human Player can ask field personnel to give them the ball. that is a safe, but time consuming option.

The Human Player can pick up the ball, but make sure they do not go past the appropriate line. What is the applicable line? Well, it depends upon where the robots are. The G40 rule that everyone thinks about.

But, what if a robot is touching the ball? then G41 applies, and HP can't touch the ball, even to push the portion of the ball that is over the guard rail in the human player area.

If that is the first time you have seen the situation (and I only saw it once after being at two regionals), then you are going through all the rules in your head to figure out what you should be looking for. It is the scenario you didn't think about to be prepared when it occurs.

Last edited by rich2202 : 17-04-2014 at 16:45.